Saturday 28th & Sunday 29th November 2015

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Sat 28 Nov, 2015 7:07 am

Good morning.

I logged in because I had something to say prompted by, dare I admit, some partial agreement with rip and that sensitivities were perhaps running a little high. I must point out however that I do understand why, sensitivities that is and that he has history... Anyway I nearly changed my mind 'cause it's all been said and I agree far more with the rest of you.

Even so I still wish to add that I too abhor freeloaders, having personally witnessed far too many. 'And you know what? We even have an acting Prime Minister whose own family capitalised from tax and financial dealings made possible during the Thatcher years. He also gratefully accepted all the social security available to him and his immediate family, as was his due, but nevertheless has no qualms about those who desperately need help going without.

One thing I've found common to many freeloaders is their propensity to habitually lie... including to themselves.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sat 28 Nov, 2015 8:13 am

Good morning

Calling in from a 'sunny' Derby......here for the wedding of a most amazing woman. A very emotional day

Speaking about emotions I am a little confused about what is going on in the the Labour Party hierarchy at the moment

I understand all the questions about Corbyn and his leadership....well to be fair he has only been in position for a few weeks and he is under far more pressure from a hostile press than even I expected

The odd thing for me this is all over Syria

The way some commentators and Labour politicians are acting it is as though he is advocating something ridiculous and against the principles of the party - in fact, if I didn't know better, I would think that the Labour Party was the 'War Party' and that any excuse to use military power was the norm

The fact is the case for intervention is very weak, and there are enough level-headed people in politics, the armed forces and foreign analysts who say that this is the case

The case as not been made by Clouncy Funt and in this case we should not be involved until he actually answers certain questions. The main point is that the people in Syria and a number of our 'allies' do not see ISIS as the main threat but Assad

I am nauseated to see senior Labour politicians being so hung-ho about war in such cases - and that is even with the learning from Iraq and, probably more pertinently, Libya about what can happen in these sort of situations

Anyone who votes for involvement at this stage should hold their heads in shame

France are currently acting very emotionally - I can understand why - but is an emotional response the correct one? Hollande has been very naughty by using emotional blackmail to try and influence our decision

We need a rational response and one that has a clear objective - an emotional 'Bomb the Fuckers' approach is not really going to make our country any safer will it?

Oh, and when are we going to see Clouncy condemning the Saudis and stop selling them our weapons?

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 28 Nov, 2015 8:29 am

Morning all.

Enjoy the wedding HowSilly.

Something else to celebrate today it's The Day Thatcher Stepped Down 25th anniversary !
Who can forget the sight of her crying at her own downfall as she was driven out of Downing Street.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 28 Nov, 2015 8:33 am

See there was a lot of cynicism about the leader who dared ask party members what they think.

We went to bed feeling cheered that we'd get a chance to let Corbyn & the PLP know our views.

& Tubby....how do you know that Corbyn may not act on what he hears ?
Isn't it possible that, as a man who clearly has strong principles on serious issues like bombing, if a large majority of Labour members want bombing he may resign as leader ?

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 28 Nov, 2015 8:35 am

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 28 Nov, 2015 8:40 am

Mmmm....Have just opened the link sent in the email.

It asks for your name, but not your Labour membership number.
I presumed you would have to authenticate your membership to submit your view.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sat 28 Nov, 2015 8:46 am

Morning.

Just listened to Radio 4 interviews with Labour MPs insisting Corbyn has to go and that the party is a 'shambles'.

I despair.

There is nothing moderate in this behaviour.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 28 Nov, 2015 8:47 am

I missed it...who were they ?

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sat 28 Nov, 2015 8:51 am

Isn't it a strange world when Peter Oborne is saying that if Corbyn is ousted over his approach to Syria it will also be 'his finest hour' - I'm agreeing with almost every word Max Hastings says on the subject of Syria - and many of the more 'serious' papers agree with Corbyn in thinking Cameron hasn't made the case for airstrikes in Syria ..... but some loud and cantankerous Labour MPs are making this an issue of get Corbyn.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sat 28 Nov, 2015 8:53 am

yahyah wrote:I missed it...who were they ?

First up was Fiona McTaggart - then there was a bloke - I didn't get his name (I was already fuming) but likely to be John Spellar given all that he has already said?

Ah - from tweets I've just seen it looks as though they also had Clive Lewis on speaking for Corbyn. I missed that - he might even have been the bloke referred to above because I was already so fuming at the BBC and McTaggart I could barely listen to what he was saying.

James Tapsfield ‏@JamesTapsfield 19m19 minutes ago
Corbyn supporter Clive Lewis starts Today interview by attacking "outrageous" BBC coverage. This always works well

Jane Merrick ‏@janemerrick23 17m17 minutes ago
Corbyn ally Clive Lewis has effectively just accused the good people of Slough of contributing to an anti-Corbyn "polemic". It was a vox pop

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 28 Nov, 2015 8:53 am

Thatcher was devastated, up all night, John Sargent just telling us.

Wonder if she stopped to think of all those, with a lot less personal wealth, that she sentenced to years of unemployment ?

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sat 28 Nov, 2015 9:05 am

Sam Coates Times ‏@SamCoatesTimes 34m34 minutes ago
1. Labour Party rules are confusing, ambiguous and open to competing interpretations in the event that MPs want to oust leader

Sam Coates Times ‏@SamCoatesTimes 32m32 minutes ago
2. The ambiguity surrounds in the event of a challenge, whether the Leader - Corbyn - automatically takes part in subsequent contest

Sam Coates Times ‏@SamCoatesTimes 29m29 minutes ago
3. If Corbyn doesn't automatically go on the ballot, he would have to secure nominations from around 40 MPs and MEPs - which might be tricky

Sam Coates Times ‏@SamCoatesTimes 26m26 minutes ago
4. But Corbyn's office insist that in event a challenge triggered, Corbyn & challenger are only two names on ballot. No nomination process

Sam Coates Times ‏@SamCoatesTimes 26m26 minutes ago
5. So who is right. Some lawyers such as @JolyonMaugham share the Corbyn office interpretation

Sam Coates Times ‏@SamCoatesTimes 22m22 minutes ago
6. However some senior figures, including some of the party's most prominent MPs, sought legal advice from GRM, one law firm used by party

Sam Coates Times ‏@SamCoatesTimes 22m22 minutes ago
7. This legal advice says Corbyn WOULD need to seek nominations because of a precedent set in 1988 in the Kinnock v Benn contest

Sam Coates Times ‏@SamCoatesTimes 20m20 minutes ago
8. When Tony Benn challenged Neil Kinnock after 1987 election, the contest was open to anyone who got the nominations

'senior figures', 'some of the party's most prominent MPs' - presume that means those who the press regularly turns to and features. Would they be able to use Labour party funds for seeking this legal advice?

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sat 28 Nov, 2015 9:08 am

Sam Coates Times ‏@SamCoatesTimes 26m26 minutes ago
8. When Tony Benn challenged Neil Kinnock after 1987 election, the contest was open to anyone who got the nominations

Sam Coates Times ‏@SamCoatesTimes 25m25 minutes ago
10. The precedent set by that 1988 contest is regarded as key in the GRM legal advice and binding on the way any new contest wd be run.

Sam Coates Times ‏@SamCoatesTimes 23m23 minutes ago
11. I'm told that the NEC might not have as much discretion as widely thought to overturn recommendation, partic if backed by QC opinion

Sam Coates Times ‏@SamCoatesTimes 23m23 minutes ago
12. But I think this argument was meant to be a secret until such time as rebels needed to deploy it. Harder now it's on Times p1

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 28 Nov, 2015 9:15 am

Husband and myself have spent the last few days debating what will be our own personal lines in the sand over all this.

It is becoming clearer at least.

If the PLP force a leadership election, and Corbyn is not allowed to stand then for me, that would mean resigning from the party.
Even if there was another candidate on the ballot I wanted to vote for this time around Corbyn should be there if he wants to be.

If, as it is starting to look like, MPs are playing as hawks to oust/embarrass Corbyn then that is also something that will make me resign.

I don't think that's 'flouncing out' if I do it. After being brought up in a severely dysfunctional family it is hard to think of a reason to actually pay to belong to something like the current Labour party.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sat 28 Nov, 2015 9:19 am

I'm going to PM you yahyah.

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Sat 28 Nov, 2015 9:22 am

yahyah wrote:Morning all.

Enjoy the wedding HowSilly.

Something else to celebrate today it's The Day Thatcher Stepped Down 25th anniversary !
Who can forget the sight of her crying at her own downfall as she was driven out of Downing Street.

Thanks, yahyah, for something to celebrate that is. I should be celebrating my eldest's birthday tomorrow but... how can I put it without falling into the trap I've advised his partner against? Let's just say an unwedding, should that be what transpires, not that they're actually wedded.

'And what did I advise? No washing dirty laundry on Facebook. Mutter, mutter on the internet no less. At least I'm anonymous even if there are some who know who I am. Maybe my grandaughter is too young to be affected but really? She has a nine year old son too!

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 28 Nov, 2015 9:26 am

Thanks RR

I am logging off now as have chores to do, so will respond to you at lunchtime.

Sorry if I am sounding negative. It just feels so hard to know who to trust and why they are acting as they are in the Labour party at the moment. So better not to be a part of it and donate fees to charity.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 28 Nov, 2015 9:27 am

Clive Lewis was defensive, shrill and spoke way too quickly. He may have made some good points but he came across badly.
I think the other person was John Woodcock. He wasn't particularly convincing either. A 'friend of Israel'?

I'm with the people of Slough. Both sides are bringing Labour down. Labour supporters just want a united party that opposes the Tories. Crying 'not fair' over poorly behaved MPs doesn't cut it. Leaders have to earn trust, they have to lead. Being elected has never been enough, in any party. It's unrealistic to expect MPs to behave to help someone they don't agree with and who they feel, possibly correctly, is out of step with the Labour voters who elected them to parliament on Ed Miliband's socially democratic manifesto. I agree with Corbyn on substance on some things, but continue to feel his lack of experience and lack of leadership skills is a disaster for Labour.

Edited to add John Woodcock was speaking for Labour MPs who want to support strikes.

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Sat 28 Nov, 2015 9:40 am

Just checked my bank balance 'cause I've booked a veterinary appt for one of the cats. No need to worry, I've had it on good authority that my details were not hacked from TalkTalk.

Anyway whilst on the topic of beasties, I am right in thinking it were rr2, aren't I? Just another one of my been there done that journeys; the trek from Spain to Marston Green, where I was born. In my case however it took far longer, a few generations and the route via India. Just saying.

Lonewolfie · Post by **Lonewolfie** » Sat 28 Nov, 2015 9:44 am

yahyah wrote:Mmmm....Have just opened the link sent in the email.

It asks for your name, but not your Labour membership number.
I presumed you would have to authenticate your membership to submit your view.

Morfters all.....hope to be back later, but just to let you know, as a '£3 Corbynista' I also received the e-mail re bombing...so not just canvassing LP members...although, as ever, it seems Clouncy and his Murkydochian Droogs are going to get their way

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sat 28 Nov, 2015 9:47 am

utopiandreams wrote:Just checked my bank balance 'cause I've booked a veterinary appt for one of the cats. No need to worry, I've had it on good authority that my details were not hacked from TalkTalk.

Anyway whilst on the topic of beasties, I am right in thinking it were rr2, aren't I? Just another one of my been there done that journeys; the trek from Spain to Marston Green, where I was born. In my case however it took far longer, a few generations and the route via India. Just saying.

I hope the vets appt goes well utopian.

Hmmm Spain to Marston Green via India. I'm imagining that journey could provide us with many convoluted tales.

But were there planes taking off behind your house in Marston Green?

Rebecca · Post by **Rebecca** » Sat 28 Nov, 2015 9:54 am

Willow904 wrote:Clive Lewis was defensive, shrill and spoke way too quickly. He may have made some good points but he came across badly.
I think the other person was John Woodcock. He wasn't particularly convincing either. A 'friend of Israel'?

I'm with the people of Slough. Both sides are bringing Labour down. Labour supporters just want a united party that opposes the Tories. Crying 'not fair' over poorly behaved MPs doesn't cut it. Leaders have to earn trust, they have to lead. Being elected has never been enough, in any party. It's unrealistic to expect MPs to behave to help someone they don't agree with and who they feel, possibly correctly, is out of step with the Labour voters who elected them to parliament on Ed Miliband's socially democratic manifesto. I agree with Corbyn on substance on some things, but continue to feel his lack of experience and lack of leadership skills is a disaster for Labour.

Edited to add John Woodcock was speaking for Labour MPs who want to support strikes.

Well,of course Corbyn doesn't have leadership experience.So,for the sake of the Labour party,and the country,why the hell don't the more experienced(but losers of the last two elections,let's not forget)get behind Corbyn and give a little support and encouragement.
Because he isn't one of their suited and booted gang,that's why.
He certainly has the skills to bring thousands of pounds into the Labour coffers,increasing membership by tens of thousands,get the unions back on Labours side.None of this is a disaster for the party is it?
I mean,how dare he ask members how they feel about us bombing Syria?We should just know our place,hand over donations and membership fees,vote Labour,and let them decide?Like abstaining over the welfare vote?
I am so sick of this,and frankly ashamed to be a party member.Embarassed by these so called moderates plotting and disrespecting and whining to the media.That's what is a diasaster for Labour imo.
Oh sorry,I'm just a 'cultist''hard leftist'whatever,aka a middle aged,middle class but poor long term labour voter.
The cult of listening and agreeing with a quiet,thoughtful and peaceful politician.

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Sat 28 Nov, 2015 10:01 am

Peter Oborne .

http://www.middleeasteye.net/columns/ca ... 1307233108" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

: ScreenShot01137.jpg (63.04 KiB) Viewed 10292 times

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Sat 28 Nov, 2015 10:04 am

His column in today's Times goes further and says Corbyn is right.

: CU4i6YTWUAAHQr4.jpg (126.84 KiB) Viewed 10289 times

Not a very good scan though, https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CU4i6YTWUAAHQr4.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Rebecca · Post by **Rebecca** » Sat 28 Nov, 2015 10:04 am

From todays Indy,which seems to be leading with stories more or less ignored by most of the other newspapers,UK could be prosecuted for war crimes.This is because we sell missiles to Saudi who have used them against rebels in the Yemen civil war,and used them a lot.

Edited to add,also the Indy has seriously failed to run a daily love in to Adele.Unlike the Guardian who appear to be licking her boots.

Rebecca · Post by **Rebecca** » Sat 28 Nov, 2015 10:07 am

TobyLatimer wrote:His column in today's Times goes further and says Corbyn is right.
CU4i6YTWUAAHQr4.jpg

Not a very good scan though, https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CU4i6YTWUAAHQr4.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The thing is,I have seen no serious opinion saying that Cameron is right.
Corbyn is right,he is,but ,seeing as he is Corbyn he must be wrong.
Why is this happening?

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Sat 28 Nov, 2015 10:07 am

rebeccariots2 wrote:
utopiandreams wrote:Just checked my bank balance 'cause I've booked a veterinary appt for one of the cats. No need to worry, I've had it on good authority that my details were not hacked from TalkTalk.

Anyway whilst on the topic of beasties, I am right in thinking it were rr2, aren't I? Just another one of my been there done that journeys; the trek from Spain to Marston Green, where I was born. In my case however it took far longer, a few generations and the route via India. Just saying.
I hope the vets appt goes well utopian.

Hmmm Spain to Marston Green via India. I'm imagining that journey could provide us with many convoluted tales.

But were there planes taking off behind your house in Marston Green?

Yeah well, she's a bit sneezy with a weepy eye and generally out of sorts, probably nothing much. Tales? Well yeah I have a few (insert emoji if that were my wont) but believe it or not, I have many more tales than those I divulge. I know it's hard, but really... even to family. Oh excuse me, that was something else but I don't talk about it.

Blimey forgot to answer about the planes. No I don't remember my parents bought a twelve foot caravan and moved to Meriden when I was born, a sixteen footer after my brother and a house after my sister a couple of years later. Have just looked on a map and bloody hell it is close to Elmdon isn't it? I do remember the aforementioned house in Sheldon, directly opposite the airport as an extremely reckless crow would fly. That was near enough thanks.

Rebecca · Post by **Rebecca** » Sat 28 Nov, 2015 10:19 am

utopiandreams wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:
utopiandreams wrote:Just checked my bank balance 'cause I've booked a veterinary appt for one of the cats. No need to worry, I've had it on good authority that my details were not hacked from TalkTalk.

Anyway whilst on the topic of beasties, I am right in thinking it were rr2, aren't I? Just another one of my been there done that journeys; the trek from Spain to Marston Green, where I was born. In my case however it took far longer, a few generations and the route via India. Just saying.
I hope the vets appt goes well utopian.

Hmmm Spain to Marston Green via India. I'm imagining that journey could provide us with many convoluted tales.

But were there planes taking off behind your house in Marston Green?
Yeah well, she's a bit sneezy with a weepy eye and generally out of sorts, probably nothing much. Tales? Well yeah I have a few (insert emoji if that were my wont) but believe it or not, I have many more tales than those I divulge. I know it's hard, but really... even to family. Oh excuse me, that was something else but I don't talk about it.

Blimey forgot to answer about the planes. No I don't remember my parents bought a twelve foot caravan and moved to Meriden when I was born, a sixteen footer after my brother and a house after my sister a couple of years later. Have just looked on a map and bloody hell it is close to Elmdon isn't it? I do remember the aforementioned house in Sheldon, directly opposite the airport as an extremely reckless crow would fly. That was near enough thanks.

Re your cat;
mine were both like that last winter,they had cat flu very young,regardless of immunisation.
I used to be married to a vet,he advised me that no,antibiotics do not treat cat flu,and as my cats were eating(though somewhat fussily,tuna etc)and drinking to let them get better without intervention.
Just saying as it seems to me that for nearly everything I take my pets to the vets for,the treatment is antibiotics and anti inflammatory(aka steroids ).So usually don't bother.

Post by **refitman** » Sat 28 Nov, 2015 10:19 am

Out of interest, when was Corbyn meant to gain the "moderates" trust? Was is when they were talking about a coup before he'd even been elected? Was it when they refused the offer of Shadow posts and then moaned about not being in positions of power? Was it when they complained about Corbyn making Labour unelectable, but then started talking about throwing the London Mayor bid? Or the Oldham by-election? Has it been when the likes of Danczuk has spent every week dripping bile from Dacre and Murdoch pages?

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Sat 28 Nov, 2015 10:28 am

@Rebecca

Thanks, as I say probably nothing much but I have been stripping mouldy wallpaper in my bathroom this week and I just wonder whether that may have affected her. You know what cats are like and she's not used to wandering off and poking her nose into everything, they've only got a roof terrace and rooftops to wander.

'And on the subject of mould or condensation, I have to have the windows open every morning to dry the flat out, especially the bathroom. Brrr! I do use the heating afterwards though with the thermostat set at ten degrees.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sat 28 Nov, 2015 10:29 am

Jim Murphy ‏@GlasgowMurphy 16m16 minutes ago
I've not had email from my Party re Syria. But here's my view:
'Conscientious objection isn’t a legitimate posture'

I don't think it's a 'posture' at all.

Post by **refitman** » Sat 28 Nov, 2015 10:32 am

rebeccariots2 wrote:
Jim Murphy ‏@GlasgowMurphy 16m16 minutes ago
I've not had email from my Party re Syria. But here's my view:
'Conscientious objection isn’t a legitimate posture'
I don't think it's a 'posture' at all.

What? It isn't "conscientious objection", it's "do you have a proper plan? No? Then I can't support you".

Rebecca · Post by **Rebecca** » Sat 28 Nov, 2015 10:45 am

utopiandreams wrote:@Rebecca

Thanks, as I say probably nothing much but I have been stripping mouldy wallpaper in my bathroom this week and I just wonder whether that may have affected her. You know what cats are like and she's not used to wandering off and poking her nose into everything, they've only got a roof terrace and rooftops to wander.

'And on the subject of mould or condensation, I have to have the windows open every morning to dry the flat out, especially the bathroom. Brrr! I do use the heating afterwards though with the thermostat set at ten degrees.

Have the same bathroom problems,also in my bedroom a bit,I leave the windows open nearly all day.
But,used anti mould paint which I bought in b&q,it works very well,even in my ensuite shower room which is basically the overstairs bedroom cupboard.
One of the few products which actually does what it's supposed to.
Hope the cat is ok.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 28 Nov, 2015 11:01 am

Good morfternoon.

I'm looking for some practical help.

I'm looking for wheelchair friendly floor covering. Kitchen and hall and - well, everywhere, really. Any suggestions, please?

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 28 Nov, 2015 11:04 am

refitman wrote:Out of interest, when was Corbyn meant to gain the "moderates" trust? Was is when they were talking about a coup before he'd even been elected? Was it when they refused the offer of Shadow posts and then moaned about not being in positions of power? Was it when they complained about Corbyn making Labour unelectable, but then started talking about throwing the London Mayor bid? Or the Oldham by-election? Has it been when the likes of Danczuk has spent every week dripping bile from Dacre and Murdoch pages?

I see this as a separate and more serious issue. The collapse in trust and communication that is happening now is between Corbyn and his shadow cabinet, the MPs who were willing to give him a chance. Not the plotting Blairite backbenchers, who don't matter, as such, because they are backbenchers and if they rebel won't be seen as challenge to Corbyn's authority. Given the weakness of Cameron's case to bomb, how is it Corbyn can't convince his team to take a position to insist on a proper plan before supporting bombing? Is it because Corbyn has been saying he won't support bombing under any circumstances? I could see how such inflexibility could cause problems. I'm also concerned that Diane Abbott seems to have been making such a case on tv, on behalf of who exactly? Herself, Corbyn, Labour? Hilary Benn should be the first person Corbyn should be sharing his thinking with and should be responsible for talking to the media on the issue.

John McDonnell appears to have now made an appearance on tv, which I'm about to go read now. Someone needs to get a grip. Let's hope he has something useful to contribute.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 28 Nov, 2015 11:05 am

rebeccariots2 wrote:
Jim Murphy ‏@GlasgowMurphy 16m16 minutes ago
I've not had email from my Party re Syria. But here's my view:
'Conscientious objection isn’t a legitimate posture'
I don't think it's a 'posture' at all.

If anybody knows about "posturing" its him.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 28 Nov, 2015 11:19 am

PorFavor wrote:Good morfternoon.

I'm looking for some practical help.

I'm looking for wheelchair friendly floor covering. Kitchen and hall and - well, everywhere, really. Any suggestions, please?

Powered or manual ?

TheGrimSqueaker · Post by **TheGrimSqueaker** » Sat 28 Nov, 2015 11:23 am

refitman wrote:Out of interest, when was Corbyn meant to gain the "moderates" trust? Was is when they were talking about a coup before he'd even been elected? Was it when they refused the offer of Shadow posts and then moaned about not being in positions of power? Was it when they complained about Corbyn making Labour unelectable, but then started talking about throwing the London Mayor bid? Or the Oldham by-election? Has it been when the likes of Danczuk has spent every week dripping bile from Dacre and Murdoch pages?

Since when was Danczuk moderate? Have to admit I've been getting a touch twitchy of late about the use of the word "moderate" (the inverted commas being germane) almost as a term of abuse, lumping in everybody from Kippers (in all but name) like Danczuk to supporters of genuine moderates like Creasy, Burnham et al; it is akin to the way some threw around the label "Red Tories", as a pejorative label for all Labour supporters, in the run up to GE.

"Moderate", "Red Tory", "Corbynite" ....... are these labels really helping, as we try to find a way for the different wings of the Labour Party 'broad church' to work more harmoniously?

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 28 Nov, 2015 11:23 am

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34950778" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Oh well. The article is marked "3hrs ago" but doesn't appear to have anything new. McDonnell is probably right. A free vote will keep the party together. It's the kind of compromise I'm not sure Corbyn is capable of, though, and the kind of compromise many of his supporters are unlikely to be happy with. I'm starting to see why it was McDonnell that stood previously for leader, I think he is more suited to the role than his old friend. This is Cameron's war, Corbyn can't hope to stop it however right he may be in his wish to do so. It's only convention and a desire to split the Labour party that has led Cameron to claim he wants a parliamentary consensus and he would probably proceed without one, even if Corbyn convinced his cabinet to vote against. That's my impression. I think Corbyn is playing into Cameron's hands by allowing this to become a cabinet splitting issue. McDonnell is right to suggest letting the Labour hawks a free vote. Democracy means they will eventually be answerable to the electorate and as the expenses scandal has shown the voters still have some bite when it matters. If it wasn't for the emotional blackmail from Hollande, I would maybe still hopeful Corbyn could swing a better result for the country, but the plea for help from France is putting Labour MPs in a very difficult position and I really sympathise with why they feel the UK can't ignore such a direct appeal. Syria was a joint creation of British and French colonial power over a century ago. That's hard to ignore. Mind you, the French didn't back us up in Iraq (also the product of French/British colonialism). So maybe it isn't. I don't think polls of party members only should be used to make a case for or against, btw. In a matter of war, Labour need to try to reflect the national mood, as they 2 years ago under Ed, if they want to establish a mandate to oppose the sitting PM.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 28 Nov, 2015 11:24 am

HindleA wrote:
PorFavor wrote:Good morfternoon.

I'm looking for some practical help.

I'm looking for wheelchair friendly floor covering. Kitchen and hall and - well, everywhere, really. Any suggestions, please?

Powered or manual ?

Ah, now you're asking . . . .

Manual at the moment - but it's entirely possible that I'll graduate in the near future. I realise that there's a fair weight difference but less effort, obviously, in moving about in a powered one. Thanks for the response.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 28 Nov, 2015 11:30 am

Rebecca wrote:
Willow904 wrote:Clive Lewis was defensive, shrill and spoke way too quickly. He may have made some good points but he came across badly.
I think the other person was John Woodcock. He wasn't particularly convincing either. A 'friend of Israel'?

I'm with the people of Slough. Both sides are bringing Labour down. Labour supporters just want a united party that opposes the Tories. Crying 'not fair' over poorly behaved MPs doesn't cut it. Leaders have to earn trust, they have to lead. Being elected has never been enough, in any party. It's unrealistic to expect MPs to behave to help someone they don't agree with and who they feel, possibly correctly, is out of step with the Labour voters who elected them to parliament on Ed Miliband's socially democratic manifesto. I agree with Corbyn on substance on some things, but continue to feel his lack of experience and lack of leadership skills is a disaster for Labour.

Edited to add John Woodcock was speaking for Labour MPs who want to support strikes.

Well,of course Corbyn doesn't have leadership experience.So,for the sake of the Labour party,and the country,why the hell don't the more experienced(but losers of the last two elections,let's not forget)get behind Corbyn and give a little support and encouragement.
Because he isn't one of their suited and booted gang,that's why.
He certainly has the skills to bring thousands of pounds into the Labour coffers,increasing membership by tens of thousands,get the unions back on Labours side.None of this is a disaster for the party is it?
I mean,how dare he ask members how they feel about us bombing Syria?We should just know our place,hand over donations and membership fees,vote Labour,and let them decide?Like abstaining over the welfare vote?
I am so sick of this,and frankly ashamed to be a party member.Embarassed by these so called moderates plotting and disrespecting and whining to the media.That's what is a diasaster for Labour imo.
Oh sorry,I'm just a 'cultist''hard leftist'whatever,aka a middle aged,middle class but poor long term labour voter.
The cult of listening and agreeing with a quiet,thoughtful and peaceful politician.

He said what he was going to do if he was elected:
He would represent us.
Ask us.
Be guided by what the majority of we, the membership wanted.
Change the way politics are done.
We liked the idea of it.
We voted for it.
He's doing it.

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Sat 28 Nov, 2015 11:33 am

@PorFavor , I have wood tiles in the kitchen and laminate wood tiles in the hall. The laminate is just as good imo, a good quality underlay is preferable and adds life to these type of floors as it adds buoyancy (you can't tell) which prevents cracking.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 28 Nov, 2015 11:34 am

Willow - I think if even McDonnell is saying there should be a free vote, there is very likely to be a free vote. And yes I think JC could accept that.

As for our SC's suitability as leader, in some ways he may be but if anything he has even more baggage than Jez.

(see for instance some 1980s remarks from him about the IRA being exhumed just the other day)

TheGrimSqueaker · Post by **TheGrimSqueaker** » Sat 28 Nov, 2015 11:34 am

Willow904 wrote:This is Cameron's war, Corbyn can't hope to stop it however right he may be in his wish to do so.

Ed did. Corbyn's USP is that he is his own man, not a 'professional' politician, that was what endeared him to the people who overwhelmingly voted for him as Leader; but there are times where you have to compromise, where you have to be able to play the realpolitik games to stop some of Cameron's more outrageous idiocies, and it is questionable whether Jezza is capable of doing that without alienating those who voted for him ...... actually, whether he is capable of doing that full stop.

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Sat 28 Nov, 2015 11:37 am

Livingstone vs Hodges on LBC earlier. http://www.lbc.co.uk/ken-clashes-with-c ... ip--120580" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

: ScreenShot01138.jpg (54.78 KiB) Viewed 10146 times

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 28 Nov, 2015 11:37 am

TheGrimSqueaker wrote:
refitman wrote:Out of interest, when was Corbyn meant to gain the "moderates" trust? Was is when they were talking about a coup before he'd even been elected? Was it when they refused the offer of Shadow posts and then moaned about not being in positions of power? Was it when they complained about Corbyn making Labour unelectable, but then started talking about throwing the London Mayor bid? Or the Oldham by-election? Has it been when the likes of Danczuk has spent every week dripping bile from Dacre and Murdoch pages?
Since when was Danczuk moderate? Have to admit I've been getting a touch twitchy of late about the use of the word "moderate" (the inverted commas being germane) almost as a term of abuse, lumping in everybody from Kippers (in all but name) like Danczuk to supporters of genuine moderates like Creasy, Burnham et al; it is akin to the way some threw around the label "Red Tories", as a pejorative label for all Labour supporters, in the run up to GE.

"Moderate", "Red Tory", "Corbynite" ....... are these labels really helping, as we try to find a way for the different wings of the Labour Party 'broad church' to work more harmoniously?

I was accused of being a social democrat by a supposed Corbyn supporter on CIF. I'm not sure if half the stuff on the internet is genuine or not, but I find the hostility to anyone who isn't Corbyn too simplistic and black and white for my liking. I agree and disagree on various points with most Labour MPs. There are few I would agree wholeheartedly with on everything. As a general body I agree with them more than with the conservatives who I rarely agree with. That's enough for me. I think it's a shame it's not enough for others. I just can't square Blair being lumped in with Tories, for example, when Blair renationalised Network Rail. I guess I just see things differently than others.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 28 Nov, 2015 11:38 am

Willow904 wrote:
refitman wrote:Out of interest, when was Corbyn meant to gain the "moderates" trust? Was is when they were talking about a coup before he'd even been elected? Was it when they refused the offer of Shadow posts and then moaned about not being in positions of power? Was it when they complained about Corbyn making Labour unelectable, but then started talking about throwing the London Mayor bid? Or the Oldham by-election? Has it been when the likes of Danczuk has spent every week dripping bile from Dacre and Murdoch pages?
I see this as a separate and more serious issue. The collapse in trust and communication that is happening now is between Corbyn and his shadow cabinet, the MPs who were willing to give him a chance. Not the plotting Blairite backbenchers, who don't matter, as such, because they are backbenchers and if they rebel won't be seen as challenge to Corbyn's authority. Given the weakness of Cameron's case to bomb, how is it Corbyn can't convince his team to take a position to insist on a proper plan before supporting bombing? Is it because Corbyn has been saying he won't support bombing under any circumstances? I could see how such inflexibility could cause problems. I'm also concerned that Diane Abbott seems to have been making such a case on tv, on behalf of who exactly? Herself, Corbyn, Labour? Hilary Benn should be the first person Corbyn should be sharing his thinking with and should be responsible for talking to the media on the issue.

John McDonnell appears to have now made an appearance on tv, which I'm about to go read now. Someone needs to get a grip. Let's hope he has something useful to contribute.

Sadly the Labour rebels are using Syria as part of their agenda, and I think it's disgusting. If they force a leadership election then I'm off. And it's not flouncing. I refuse to give their disgraceful behaviour legitimacy, and have no other effective way of showing my displeasure.
And from what I've read on Twitter there are an awful lot of people that are going to do the same.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 28 Nov, 2015 11:42 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Willow - I think if even McDonnell is saying there should be a free vote, there is very likely to be a free vote. And yes I think JC could accept that.

As for our SC's suitability as leader, in some ways he may be but if anything he has even more baggage than Jez.

(see for instance some 1980s remarks from him about the IRA being exhumed just the other day)

I agree about McDonnell's baggage. The point was in reference to personality and the political acumen to see the best "out" and grasp it quickly. The lack of grasping the free vote option before the damage was done is not encouraging. Having the right principles may work out for Corbyn in the end, if Cameron gets his war and it goes badly, but Corbyn is unlikely to still be around to benefit if he doesn't buck up his party management skills soon.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 28 Nov, 2015 11:43 am

Oh, and Corbyn is on the record as saying MPs should not be whipped when it comes to going to war (in reply to a query from Caroline Lucas in a 2013 HoC debate on the 10th anniversary of the Iraq war) Surprised that more hasn't been made of this, tbh.....

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 28 Nov, 2015 11:50 am

utopiandreams wrote:@Rebecca

Thanks, as I say probably nothing much but I have been stripping mouldy wallpaper in my bathroom this week and I just wonder whether that may have affected her. You know what cats are like and she's not used to wandering off and poking her nose into everything, they've only got a roof terrace and rooftops to wander.

'And on the subject of mould or condensation, I have to have the windows open every morning to dry the flat out, especially the bathroom. Brrr! I do use the heating afterwards though with the thermostat set at ten degrees.

The secret to any damp room is when the heat on you should leave a window cracked open, otherwise if you keep the window shut as it dries it causes moisture which then has nowhere to go.
That is if you can afford to do that.

I don't have the heating on at night, but always keep the bedroom window open a crack except on the very coldest nights. Keeping the air circulating is important.