Wednesday 2nd December 2015

Post by **refitman** » Wed 02 Dec, 2015 7:11 am

Morning all.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 02 Dec, 2015 8:06 am

Morning.

Wearing my 'terrorist sympathiser' Tshirt while eating breakshirt.
It's got 'Corbyn cultist' on the back. Still a bit more room for more slurs and insults to go on it.

While all this is going on, as Toby posted, Southampton council wants to scrap disabled parking spaces to raise more revenue. A lot of the things that made this a more decent, caring country are being scrapped and do voters really care ?

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Wed 02 Dec, 2015 8:10 am

Morning, difficult to precede it with "Good" .

If Kuenssberg is correct that is. It's all over bar the shouting.

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TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Wed 02 Dec, 2015 8:12 am

This isn't going to end well. Both sides ramping up the snidey remarks.

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yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 02 Dec, 2015 8:38 am

The Danczuks of this world deserve deselection for their self serving behaviour, but Stella is not one of them.

Still, this division and fear is going to continue.

It just seems odd that the bunch that want Corbyn out, despite him being democratically elected with a strong mandate, are wailing that the other bunch want to oust democratically elected MPs.

We are living in interesting times.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 02 Dec, 2015 8:41 am

Thanks Rob.

Like many feeling outrage at things these days, I only read the first few paragraphs, enough to depress myself.

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Wed 02 Dec, 2015 8:44 am

No PMQs today to allow the big debate to kick off. I don't know if I can be arsed to watch much at all, never mind the full ten hours. Especially if Cameron already has the numbers. to carry the vote.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 02 Dec, 2015 8:46 am

Have just been checking for confirmation of my Lib Dem MP in voting for airstrikes and saw this:

TivySide ‏@tivyside Nov 4
Ceredigion Lib Dems hold successful annual dinner: The Ceredigion Liberal Democrats are in a buoyant mood afte... http://bit.ly/1QbfBaC" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

How desperate does a Lib Dem pal in the media have to be to come up with that ?

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 02 Dec, 2015 8:54 am

Not very subtle.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 02 Dec, 2015 9:05 am

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/peopl ... 56581.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Had an hour awake in the night, and listened to World Service.
According to someone on that the Zuckerberg's charity may not be all that it seems.
It is apparently being pushed through a limited company set up, not what would be a charitable foundation under US law.
The commentator also said a lot of people in Silicon Valley believe that there's nothing wrong with the US public [i.e. equivalent to our state] school system that better software wouldn't solve.
He thought a lot of the Zuckerberg dosh would be going for things like that, and helping the industry.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 02 Dec, 2015 9:11 am

Back from delivering Mr Ohso to the hospital. Woke every hour on the hour all through the night. Up at five. On the road at six thirty. All done without so much as a cup of tea let alone breakfast as I'm having a scan at ten.

My stomach thinks my throat's been cut...
Sorry about the partial attachment. It didn't come right but it doesn't want to be deleted.

TheGrimSqueaker · Post by **TheGrimSqueaker** » Wed 02 Dec, 2015 9:12 am

yahyah wrote:The Danczuks of this world deserve deselection for their self serving behaviour, but Stella is not one of them.

Still, this division and fear is going to continue.

It just seems odd that the bunch that want Corbyn out, despite him being democratically elected with a strong mandate, are wailing that the other bunch want to oust democratically elected MPs.

We are living in interesting times.

I am seriously beginning to wonder if I want to remain in a political party with either of these disparate factions; imo neither of them truly represent the attitudes of the bulk of party members, both are being directed by outsider influences and have agendas that have nothing to do with the real Labour Party, but are simply about furthering their own interests. While the Ultra-Blairites and Momentum play their silly games millions of people in this country are being thrown into the gutter, and these fools don't give a monkeys about that.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Wed 02 Dec, 2015 9:14 am

Morning all

I absolutely oppose the need for sitting MPs to undergo a res election battle at each election. Very short term and unproductive

The reality though is that the Tories are planning to remove 50 seats and so there is an inevitable competition for seats that will develop in certain areas between sitting MPs

Of that is the case then the record of those MPs will be scrutinized by the members eligible to vote in the selection and, I am sure, that those who vote for the bombing of Syria supporting Cameron after his disgraceful comments yesterday will be vulnerable

I hope Stella Creasey stays but her voting record will be used to decide and so it should be. If the deselected MPs are so convinced their personal popularity is sufficient then they can still stand. It happened in Blenau Gwent in the 90s

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Wed 02 Dec, 2015 9:24 am

TobyLatimer wrote:This isn't going to end well. Both sides ramping up the snidey remarks.
ScreenShot01164.jpg

ScreenShot01165.jpg

I think there is a good case for expelling party members who are repeatedly harrassing Labour MPs. I do, however, feel it needs to be kept in perspective. What party members say and do isn't comparable to what Members of Parliament say and do. David Cameron's harassment of Labour MPs over their voting intentions is far more serious and he should face censure for it.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 02 Dec, 2015 9:27 am

Morning all.

Reading the New Statesman piece regarding Stella Creasy it seems highly speculative. The very vocal tiny minorities on both ends need to calm the f. down. It's manna from heaven for the RWP and the Tories.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 02 Dec, 2015 9:28 am

Morning all.

Edu Select Committee this morning with Lord Nash on regional Commissioners.

I expect him to say that they're all doing a splendid job, really not there only to convert more schools to academies and definitely accountable. Not to anyone locally mind but you can't have everything.

http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Inde ... 9e7eb97e56" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Wed 02 Dec, 2015 9:36 am

TheGrimSqueaker wrote:
yahyah wrote:The Danczuks of this world deserve deselection for their self serving behaviour, but Stella is not one of them.

Still, this division and fear is going to continue.

It just seems odd that the bunch that want Corbyn out, despite him being democratically elected with a strong mandate, are wailing that the other bunch want to oust democratically elected MPs.

We are living in interesting times.
I am seriously beginning to wonder if I want to remain in a political party with either of these disparate factions; imo neither of them truly represent the attitudes of the bulk of party members, both are being directed by outsider influences and have agendas that have nothing to do with the real Labour Party, but are simply about furthering their own interests. While the Ultra-Blairites and Momentum play their silly games millions of people in this country are being thrown into the gutter, and these fools don't give a monkeys about that.

........which is why I have resigned my membership for now. It seems to me that there's an atmosphere of taking sides within the party - if you're not with us, you're agin us - and I find that really depressing.
While all that goes on, the Tories are bringing in their stupid vicious policies; they're not even pretending that the social security "reforms" are about saving money any more. It's all about "behaviour" now.

OGRPPFGTCC has been acting in his usual non-statesmanlike fashion and chucking gratuitous insults at anyone who doesn't want us to bomb Syria. He is an embarrassment.

Interesting that our esteemed Secretary of State for Defence is neither starting the debate nor winding it up. I wonder why?

TheGrimSqueaker · Post by **TheGrimSqueaker** » Wed 02 Dec, 2015 9:50 am

ephemerid wrote:
TheGrimSqueaker wrote:........which is why I have resigned my membership for now. It seems to me that there's an atmosphere of taking sides within the party - if you're not with us, you're agin us - and I find that really depressing.
While all that goes on, the Tories are bringing in their stupid vicious policies; they're not even pretending that the social security "reforms" are about saving money any more. It's all about "behaviour" now.
It is all a big game, to all of them. I'm rereading "Harry's Last Stand" and, a year on, it makes even grimmer reading. I truly despair for the future of these islands.

ephemerid wrote:[quote="TheGrimSqueaker]Interesting that our esteemed Secretary of State for Defence is neither starting the debate nor winding it up. I wonder why?

[/quote]

Because he is nothing more than a cipher?

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 02 Dec, 2015 9:52 am

Ever more reason to stay in,if that is the case,I would say,but respect different view.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 02 Dec, 2015 10:09 am

i.e. "we have nowhere near enough sponsors to get to the point where we have a fully academized system".

Nash all but admitted that the DfE got it very wrong before he arrived in giving schools to any trust no matter where they were.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 02 Dec, 2015 10:14 am

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 02 Dec, 2015 10:14 am

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015 ... are_btn_tw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

MPs warn older people will suffer due to delays in care cost cap
Public accounts committee says cuts in local government could mean costs fall on other services, carers or people cared for

http://www.parliament.uk/business/commi ... hed-15-16/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 02 Dec, 2015 10:16 am

Warwick Mansell just pointed out that the use of business language i.e. sole trader is very revealing...

Of course it is - they want schools to be run like businesses, and in fact, by business people.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 02 Dec, 2015 10:19 am

Soul trader.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Wed 02 Dec, 2015 10:22 am

Newsnight was ok last night, debate on the rights and wrongs of military action, leaving out most of the politics. Kirsty didn't have much time left for the audience reaction but the few who spoke were more anti- than they had been when they came in.
Probably because of the Syrian woman in the audience, rather than the panel.

Mary Creagh fans should watch it, see what you think.

What I thought was, how can you be so certain? I suppose that's why she's a politician and I'm not.

TheGrimSqueaker · Post by **TheGrimSqueaker** » Wed 02 Dec, 2015 10:27 am

HindleA wrote:Ever more reason to stay in,if that is the case,I would say,but respect different view.

Did that all the way through the Blair years, where I was the leftie thorn in Tessa Jowell's side!! But then there was still the understanding that Labour a broad church, an understanding that seems too subtle for these factions to grasp; I just don't think I have the energy to fight anymore, especially when it is fighting fools who have no desire to understand but simply to dominate.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Wed 02 Dec, 2015 10:27 am

HindleA wrote:Ever more reason to stay in,if that is the case,I would say,but respect different view.

I have respect for the view that it's better to be in the tent pissing out than outside the tent....etc. but for me it's just not good enough.

Andrew Sparrow has described Labour's position on airstrikes today thus - "Jeremy Corbyn, the leader, will effectively be speaking for Labour (the Momentum/activist wing) when he opposes airstrikes in his response to Cameron, while later Hilary Benn, the shadow foreign secretary, will be speaking for Labour (the much smaller establishment right faction) when he closes the debate with a speech in favour".

I joined Labour because of Ed Miliband. Whatever else he is accused of, one thing he did quite well was unite the party - and although the behaviour of some individuals after the GE was pisspoor, while the campaign was on he did a very good job of keeping them all on side.

I have no intention of joining Momentum, no wish to be labelled an "activist", and certainly no aspirations to be on the "establishment right".

I realise that a lot of this is the political meeja sowing division and lumping all Labour party members and MPs into camps; but some of those MPs have only themselves to blame for that. It has also been reported that some Momentum people are bullying those who do not agree with them; and we already know what the likes of Danczuk have been up to. None of this is good.

I intend to stick at what I know best. I've been writing and campaigning on health, social care, and disability issues for years on end; and on social security for some time. I can keep on doing that - and with the bits and bobs I'm involved with locally, perhaps I can be part of making a difference.
I don't have to belong to any political party to do that - and given the current division in Labour, and their (as yet) lack of serious opposition to many of the Tories' policies (and "support in principle" for a lot of them), I'll sit this out for a while and see what happens.

I might join again at some point. Who knows? But right now I am not impressed with the party's failure to get behind the leader more of us voted for than not and who won his position fair and square.
I don't agree with everything he says; but within a movement as big as Labour, there s always room for negotiation on policy. That can't happen while the PLP squabble amongst themselves - and without a united front, we can look forward to years of Tory hegemony. Only Labour can stop this, and it seems right now that the will isn't there.

I admire anyone who can keep the faith through all this. I can't. Too many other things to get exasperated about!

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Wed 02 Dec, 2015 10:27 am

HindleA wrote:Ever more reason to stay in,if that is the case,I would say,but respect different view.

The moment Corbyn was elected, it was posited that those in the membership who didn't support him would step back for a while, become less visible. That seems to have happened to a degree and it's not good for Labour. Some people who did vote for Corbyn aren't "Corbynistas", as well, and I don't think their voice is being heard either. The Syrian situation is very emotive, but it will pass. The debate today will allow both those for and against within Labour to have their say. Corbyn should embrace that. His vision for Labour was to allow debate to happen, not for his followers to impose their views on others. A free vote is more challenging, politically, it doesn't give the public a simple position to latch onto, but Labour's ambivalence towards the airstrikes seems to reflect the public's ambivalence towards them. It's not the worst place for the party to find itself.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 02 Dec, 2015 10:29 am

Yes, I thought this - "double figures" could be anywhere between 10 and 99!

Advantage - get back all the VAT they currently lose
Disadvantage - lose your autonomy and find that the MAT dictates what you do.

Tricky decision.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 02 Dec, 2015 10:39 am

OK, back to the thesis...

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 02 Dec, 2015 10:44 am

Incidentally, Nash was saying that 90% of academies converted within the last year are part of multi-academy trusts.

The problem he is the rush to convert in the first two years is why they're now having to encourage/exhort existing converters to join MATs.

Of the 5,028 academies now; 2,304 are converters on their own - the "sole traders".

That's a really big management issue and one which could seen long ago when all this started.

So...not enough sponsors, too many single academy trusts.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Wed 02 Dec, 2015 10:44 am

ephemerid wrote:
HindleA wrote:Ever more reason to stay in,if that is the case,I would say,but respect different view.

I have respect for the view that it's better to be in the tent pissing out than outside the tent....etc. but for me it's just not good enough.

Andrew Sparrow has described Labour's position on airstrikes today thus - "Jeremy Corbyn, the leader, will effectively be speaking for Labour (the Momentum/activist wing) when he opposes airstrikes in his response to Cameron, while later Hilary Benn, the shadow foreign secretary, will be speaking for Labour (the much smaller establishment right faction) when he closes the debate with a speech in favour".

I joined Labour because of Ed Miliband. Whatever else he is accused of, one thing he did quite well was unite the party - and although the behaviour of some individuals after the GE was pisspoor, while the campaign was on he did a very good job of keeping them all on side.

I have no intention of joining Momentum, no wish to be labelled an "activist", and certainly no aspirations to be on the "establishment right".

I realise that a lot of this is the political meeja sowing division and lumping all Labour party members and MPs into camps; but some of those MPs have only themselves to blame for that. It has also been reported that some Momentum people are bullying those who do not agree with them; and we already know what the likes of Danczuk have been up to. None of this is good.

I intend to stick at what I know best. I've been writing and campaigning on health, social care, and disability issues for years on end; and on social security for some time. I can keep on doing that - and with the bits and bobs I'm involved with locally, perhaps I can be part of making a difference.
I don't have to belong to any political party to do that - and given the current division in Labour, and their (as yet) lack of serious opposition to many of the Tories' policies (and "support in principle" for a lot of them), I'll sit this out for a while and see what happens.

I might join again at some point. Who knows? But right now I am not impressed with the party's failure to get behind the leader more of us voted for than not and who won his position fair and square.
I don't agree with everything he says; but within a movement as big as Labour, there s always room for negotiation on policy. That can't happen while the PLP squabble amongst themselves - and without a united front, we can look forward to years of Tory hegemony. Only Labour can stop this, and it seems right now that the will isn't there.

I admire anyone who can keep the faith through all this. I can't. Too many other things to get exasperated about!

For me, supporting Labour is part of supporting the wider Labour movement, of being supportive of unions and co-operative movements, not just in the UK but worldwide. It doesn't matter how well or not Labour, unions or our Co-ops are run. It's their existence that matters. That people keep coming together to try to make life better, is what matters most. People like Cameron would like to close down all unions, co-ops and the entire Labour party. As long as people like Cameron continue to attack these movements of the working people, that simply affirms for me that these movements can be and are effective. The Bullingdon Boys stick together. If we want to beat them, we have to stick together too.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 02 Dec, 2015 10:55 am

http://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-int ... e-our-quiz" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

How well do you really know your country? Take our quiz

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Wed 02 Dec, 2015 11:06 am

Jeremy Corbyn is delivering a message Labour lost long ago
Bryan Gould
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... CMP=twt_gu" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It may be necessary, in other words, to distinguish between the man – Corbyn, with his own political baggage and at times idiosyncratic positions – and the message, the message that he articulated and that resonated with tens, perhaps hundreds, of thousands of those who had given up on politics.

That message was clear. There is an alternative – a real and viable alternative to the current orthodoxy of austerity, of giving priority to cutting public spending, of widening inequality, of piling burdens on the most vulnerable. It was this brave assertion that propelled him into the leadership and that opened up a long overdue debate. It is a message that could and should have been delivered long ago by his rivals for the leadership and by his current opponents in his own party.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Wed 02 Dec, 2015 11:08 am

It looks like Jarvis has given up any chance of leading the party in the next few years

Realistically I think that anyone voting for airstrikes today will find it very difficult to win based on the current membership profile.

He seems to have taken the same route as the Lib Dems. Made up a few tests, believed Cameron (enough for me to question his judgement) and then ignored the big gaps. Poor show

Still want to see Benn gone if he votes with Cameron. Not sustainable to have a Shadow Minister who has such a public show of disagreement over a policy in his portfolio

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 02 Dec, 2015 11:16 am

I am certainly disappointed with Jarvis. I also agree that Labour's next leader is likely to be somebody who votes against military action today.

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Wed 02 Dec, 2015 11:23 am

The wave of euphoria I felt when Corbyn was campaigning around the towns for his leadership bid during the summer has rapidly diminished, the overwhelming almost obsessive/all consuming issue for me personally for a number of years now has been the destruction of social security and Corbyn seemed to be the only one of the four contenders who appeared to be as concerned as I am.

We haven't got a cat in hells chance now, apart from all the infighting I personally don't think it was a good idea to bring Livingstone back in to the public eye, ditto with Abbott both of who should not be blessed with prominent roles, never mind being let loose in front of the cameras ad nauseum. The few idiots on twitter etc creating problems with the abuse are just as bad as Hodges and co trolling the media.

I'm seriously hoping Corbyn will step down before the next election, nothing personal but he's just not up to it. Some of us don't have the luxury of waiting another decade for a better party to shift this shower of evil cretins.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 02 Dec, 2015 11:27 am

Good morfternoon.

I can't help thinking about how little the USA did to help combat the IRA (who operated their fundraising in America mainly unimpeded until "fairly" recently). Bit of a non sequitur (not quite the right use of the phrase but it will have to do), I know, but it keeps skittering across my brain. Especially when the term "terrorist sympathisers" is being bandied about. But, of course, that's now all water under the bridge and they are our best mates . . .

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Wed 02 Dec, 2015 11:27 am

HindleA wrote:http://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-int ... e-our-quiz

How well do you really know your country? Take our quiz

I surprised myself and did quit well on this - 2 answers were spot on......but I grossly over-estimated who has all the wealth!

Also surprised at how few people live in a rural area.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 02 Dec, 2015 11:30 am

Livingstone hasn't really been appointed to anything important, though - its just Blairite pearl clutchers who have made that a big issue.

Agree about Abbott, but as I've said before she seems to lead a charmed life.

And the likelihood of JC leading Labour into the next GE - never very high as I have always said - has surely now diminished to near zero.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 02 Dec, 2015 11:30 am

Conor Pope at LabourList:

I spent yesterday in Oldham, ahead of tomorrow's by-election. Labour seem confident of holding the seat - something which would usually go without saying, but in current circumstances cannot be taken for granted. A strong ground campaign is doing well to identify where the Labour voters are, and candidate Jim McMahon's popularity seems a real boost. The party's healthy majority will be eaten away, but a low turnout could disguise the scale of the swing to UKIP.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 02 Dec, 2015 11:34 am

TobyLatimer wrote:Morning, difficult to precede it with "Good" .

If Kuenssberg is correct that is. It's all over bar the shouting.
ScreenShot01166.jpg

There is no doubt Cameron is likely to win. But that estimate seems based on older, probably inflated figures on how many Labour MPs will vote with Dave.

frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Wed 02 Dec, 2015 11:40 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:I am certainly disappointed with Jarvis. I also agree that Labour's next leader is likely to be somebody who votes against military action today.

A point Andrew Sparrow made at 9.05 on the G live blog--

" 3) People. How MPs vote on matters of war is career-defining. Where Tory MPs stood on appeasement in the 1930s helped to decide leadership contests into the 1950s and even the 1960s, and Ed Miliband would never have become Labour leader in 2010 if he had voted for Iraq. Corbyn’s victory this summer was also, partly, a delayed backlash against Iraq. Future Labour leadership contests may be decided by how people vote tonight."

Unlike Suez and Iraq this vote is in many ways a symbolic one, ie not seriously 'Going to War' , but important for all that !

bifn !

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Wed 02 Dec, 2015 11:42 am

Does Milne have the same influence as Campbell I wonder, don't know much about him tbh. I remember a chap at work who was the union secretary who greatly admired Joe Haines, Harold Wilson's press officer,later the leader writer for the Mirrorwho called Maxwell a crook and a liar.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 02 Dec, 2015 11:43 am

Good-morning, everyone.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 02 Dec, 2015 11:43 am

StephenDolan wrote:Morning all.

Reading the New Statesman piece regarding Stella Creasy it seems highly speculative. The very vocal tiny minorities on both ends need to calm the f. down. It's manna from heaven for the RWP and the Tories.

Missed a lot of this morning's news and too tired to check but did just pick up this Tweet?

Shlomo Anker ‏@Hapoel4 10 mins10 minutes ago
@twcuddleston i am sorry Abby but the reports are not true. it was outside labour office, not Stella's house. be careful what the media says

TheGrimSqueaker · Post by **TheGrimSqueaker** » Wed 02 Dec, 2015 11:43 am

howsillyofme1 wrote:It looks like Jarvis has given up any chance of leading the party in the next few years

Realistically I think that anyone voting for airstrikes today will find it very difficult to win based on the current membership profile.

He seems to have taken the same route as the Lib Dems. Made up a few tests, believed Cameron (enough for me to question his judgement) and then ignored the big gaps. Poor show

Still want to see Benn gone if he votes with Cameron. Not sustainable to have a Shadow Minister who has such a public show of disagreement over a policy in his portfolio

While I may not agree with his decision, I think you may be doing Jarvis a slight disservice there. Don't forget this is a man who served in Kosovo, Sierra Leone, Iraq and Afghanistan; unlike most in the House (and certainly unlike Cameron) he is all too aware of the realities of war and the consequences of the actions being proposed.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 02 Dec, 2015 11:43 am

http://michaelrosenblog.blogspot.co.uk/ ... l?spref=tw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Important Speech on why we should go to war, just released.

Michael Rosen

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 02 Dec, 2015 11:43 am

To be pedantic, Ed M wasn't an MP in 2003. But his brother of course was and voted for war - and that was indeed used against him.

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Wed 02 Dec, 2015 11:43 am

Cameron refuses to apologise for 'terrorist sympathiser' remark. He may win the vote but he is going to lose support.