Tuesday 8th December 2015

Post by **refitman** » Tue 08 Dec, 2015 7:12 am

Morning all.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 08 Dec, 2015 8:11 am

Morning all.

Thanks to Eric for the Forth Bridge info, very interesting.

The Times business pages are suggesting oil prices could dip as low as $20 a barrel.

It remains to be seen if that happens, but if it does surely Scottish Labour will be able to hold the SNP to account for their economic 'forecasts' for independence based on $110 to $128 a barrel.

The SNP are trying to keep the subject of oil off the agenda now, for obvious reasons, hope Kezia keeps the pressure on.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 08 Dec, 2015 8:20 am

Steve Richards on political leadership in the social media age:

Perhaps it would be healthy for the warring sides in an internal political battle to ignore social media. But they cannot do so. Social media has become a powerful weapon in the battles. If one side tweets, the other tweets back. Journalists re-tweet the tweets and two, big political parties formed in another age become impossible to lead.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/pol ... 63871.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 08 Dec, 2015 8:29 am

''Family of accused Tube terror attacker called police three weeks before Leytonstone attack over concerns for his mental health''

It looks as if the police & media calling the Leytonstone attack a terrorist act may have been premature.

''Mire's brother Mohamed said: "He was saying odd things, talking nonsense and saying that he was seeing demons."

''Scotland Yard admits officers were contacted by a family member of Muhaydin Mire amid growing concerns over his behaviour''

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... court.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Tue 08 Dec, 2015 8:32 am

I was thinking only yesterday that we don't hear much about the vile bedroom tax nowadays, it was in the news quite a lot when Ed promised to scrap it. Then this turns up.
Bedroom tax harming children's learning amid stress and hunger, academic study shows

One father of four is quoted as saying: “[My] financial situation at the moment is very bleak, very bleak. I have £10 to my name and I have no money till Tuesday, so you can imagine the cupboards are nearly bare … I am just struggling"
A mother of four describes her son’s attempts to shield her from extra expense “He was freezing and he was too scared to say to me ‘Mum, I need a coat’ because he didn’t want to put added pressure on me"

They were told that parents were cutting back on food, heating, warm winter clothes, shoes and school uniforms because of the benefit cut.

Some parents said they were regularly going without food so their children could eat. And families reported feeling more isolated, with children enjoying less access to friends and after-school activities"

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015 ... are_btn_tw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

: ScreenShot01233.jpg (93.83 KiB) Viewed 11125 times

TheGrimSqueaker · Post by **TheGrimSqueaker** » Tue 08 Dec, 2015 8:56 am

'Classy' piece of 'journalism' on pages 2 & 3 of today's Sun from Toby Young; can be summarised as "if you are brown then f*** off". How that rag doesn't get prosecuted for incitement to hatred is beyond me, it is almost as if they have some of the police in their pocket ........

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/su ... leave.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Tue 08 Dec, 2015 9:10 am

Morning.

Kevin Maguire ‏@Kevin_Maguire 3h3 hours ago
Vast majority of US shooters are angry white non-Muslim blokes like Donald Trump. He should ban himself

Joe Watts ‏@JoeWatts_ 3h3 hours ago
"We have no choice," says Trump, calling for a ban on Muslims entering the U.S. " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; … via youtube

Post by **refitman** » Tue 08 Dec, 2015 9:16 am

Momentum, the group set up to support Jeremy Corbyn inside the Labour party, is to draw up a code of conduct so that members of other parties will not be allowed to attend its decision-making meetings in future, Adam Klug, a national organiser for the group, has said.

A new code is to be sent to local Momentum groups in the next few days after its leadership recognised it was under threat of being discredited by the interference of hard-left groups such as the Socialist party and Socialist Workers party.

It would also mean members of other leftwing parties such as Socialist Unity and the Communist party would not be allowed to attend its decision-making meetings. Momentum has also decided that office holders in the group must all be Labour members.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... ft-parties" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I guess they're just lulling us into a false sense of security.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 08 Dec, 2015 9:20 am

I signed up to Momentum after reading that.
One way of combating 'entryism' is to enter it oneself.

According to some, I'll no doubt be issuing death threats by lunchtime.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 08 Dec, 2015 9:28 am

Interesting to read that Tim Farron & Rory Stewart, both MPs in the flooded areas, were vehemently against, and openly critical of, natural land management schemes that would have helped decrease flooding.

GeorgeMonbiot ‏@GeorgeMonbiot 2h2 hours ago
.@RoryStewartUK campaigned against measures to mitigate #flooding. Now minister in charge of ... flooding. My column http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... aris-talks" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 08 Dec, 2015 9:31 am

GeorgeMonbiot ‏@GeorgeMonbiot 13h13 hours ago
I show how @timfarron and @RoryStewartUK campaigned against #flood mitigation measures. And now lament the floods. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... aris-talks" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …

Farron seems to be a bit of a twit on this.
Not for the first time.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Tue 08 Dec, 2015 9:35 am

My impression of Momentum based on the e-mails I have received rather than comments in the press I have read, is a cross between the single issue campaigning of 38 degrees and the well-meaning but peripheral influence of a PTA. What it could evolve into is another matter, of course. Insisting the management structure of the group is made up only of Labour members is a good move and suggests the main thrust behind it is still as I my first impressions suggested - to use the enthusiasm many people have for single issues to reach out and involve more people in the Labour movement in general. I could of course be completely and utterly wrong, but without firm evidence I can only take the group at face value and on the surface it seems a genuine attempt to use social media to involve people in party politics in a new kind of way.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Tue 08 Dec, 2015 9:36 am

yahyah wrote:GeorgeMonbiot ‏@GeorgeMonbiot 13h13 hours ago
I show how @timfarron and @RoryStewartUK campaigned against #flood mitigation measures. And now lament the floods. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... aris-talks" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …

Farron seems to be a bit of a twit on this.
Not for the first time.

And as for Meurig Raymond's performance (head of NFU) .... he's in complete denial of any intensification in livestock farming. He should come and see how crowded the fields are around here.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Tue 08 Dec, 2015 9:42 am

Willow904 wrote:My impression of Momentum based on the e-mails I have received rather than comments in the press I have read, is a cross between the single issue campaigning of 38 degrees and the well-meaning but peripheral influence of a PTA. What it could evolve into is another matter, of course. Insisting the management structure of the group is made up only of Labour members is a good move and suggests the main thrust behind it is still as I my first impressions suggested - to use the enthusiasm many people have for single issues to reach out and involve more people in the Labour movement in general. I could of course be completely and utterly wrong, but without firm evidence I can only take the group at face value and on the surface it seems a genuine attempt to use social media to involve people in party politics in a new kind of way.

My impression is the same as yours.

This article in the Indy seems pretty fair in giving their spokespeople a voice (after airing the concerns of Tom Watson).

Their aims seem to reflect what most of the new members in our branch are hoping for - that Labour becomes a community organisation. We've got a meeting in the New Year to start talking about local projects and issues (we're not doing that under the Momentum banner ... I think we all live so far away from each other we reckon we don't need any more organisations / groups to maintain!).

seeingclearly · Post by **seeingclearly** » Tue 08 Dec, 2015 9:48 am

rebeccariots2 wrote:
Willow904 wrote:My impression of Momentum based on the e-mails I have received rather than comments in the press I have read, is a cross between the single issue campaigning of 38 degrees and the well-meaning but peripheral influence of a PTA. What it could evolve into is another matter, of course. Insisting the management structure of the group is made up only of Labour members is a good move and suggests the main thrust behind it is still as I my first impressions suggested - to use the enthusiasm many people have for single issues to reach out and involve more people in the Labour movement in general. I could of course be completely and utterly wrong, but without firm evidence I can only take the group at face value and on the surface it seems a genuine attempt to use social media to involve people in party politics in a new kind of way.
My impression is the same as yours.

This article in the Indy seems pretty fair in giving their spokespeople a voice (after airing the concerns of Tom Watson).

Their aims seem to reflect what most of the new members in our branch are hoping for - that Labour becomes a community organisation. We've got a meeting in the New Year to start talking about local projects and issues (we're not doing that under the Momentum banner ... I think we all live so far away from each other we reckon we don't need any more organisations / groups to maintain!).

I think what Momentum will be able to provide is feet on the ground in places where they are needed. It looks genuine enough to me, and why, if among the new membership there are good campainers, would you not want to use their energy. As a party, I mean.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Tue 08 Dec, 2015 9:50 am

seeingclearly wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:
Willow904 wrote:My impression of Momentum based on the e-mails I have received rather than comments in the press I have read, is a cross between the single issue campaigning of 38 degrees and the well-meaning but peripheral influence of a PTA. What it could evolve into is another matter, of course. Insisting the management structure of the group is made up only of Labour members is a good move and suggests the main thrust behind it is still as I my first impressions suggested - to use the enthusiasm many people have for single issues to reach out and involve more people in the Labour movement in general. I could of course be completely and utterly wrong, but without firm evidence I can only take the group at face value and on the surface it seems a genuine attempt to use social media to involve people in party politics in a new kind of way.
My impression is the same as yours.

This article in the Indy seems pretty fair in giving their spokespeople a voice (after airing the concerns of Tom Watson).

Their aims seem to reflect what most of the new members in our branch are hoping for - that Labour becomes a community organisation. We've got a meeting in the New Year to start talking about local projects and issues (we're not doing that under the Momentum banner ... I think we all live so far away from each other we reckon we don't need any more organisations / groups to maintain!).
I think what Momentum will be able to provide is feet on the ground in places where they are needed. It looks genuine enough to me, and why, if among the new membership there are good campainers, would you not want to use their energy. As a party, I mean.

Well yeah. Were Momentum members banned from campaigning in Oldham, Tom? Why would that be?

GetYou · Post by **GetYou** » Tue 08 Dec, 2015 10:11 am

rebeccariots2 wrote:Morning.

Kevin Maguire ‏@Kevin_Maguire 3h3 hours ago
Vast majority of US shooters are angry white non-Muslim blokes like Donald Trump. He should ban himself

Joe Watts ‏@JoeWatts_ 3h3 hours ago
"We have no choice," says Trump, calling for a ban on Muslims entering the U.S. " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; … via youtube

This made me chuckle

https://twitter.com/dhw/status/67398918 ... wsrc%5Etfw

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Tue 08 Dec, 2015 10:58 am

You were right refitman. Looks like the apology is tucked inside ... well away from any equivalent prominence.

: The Sun Apologises _ on an inside page.jpg (36.13 KiB) Viewed 10937 times

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 08 Dec, 2015 11:02 am

yahyah wrote:GeorgeMonbiot ‏@GeorgeMonbiot 13h13 hours ago
I show how @timfarron and @RoryStewartUK campaigned against #flood mitigation measures. And now lament the floods. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... aris-talks" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …

Farron seems to be a bit of a twit on this.
Not for the first time.

Farron owned up to this on TV yesterday, tbf to him.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 08 Dec, 2015 11:07 am

The March of the Makers seem to have taken a wrong turn somewhere along the road...

http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/iop/index ... ct-15.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Total production output is estimated to have increased by 1.7% in October 2015 compared with October 2014. There were increases in 3 of the 4 main sectors, with mining & quarrying output being the largest contributor, increasing by 8.5%.

Manufacturing output decreased by 0.1% in October 2015 compared with October 2014. The largest contribution to the decrease came from the manufacture of machinery & equipment not elsewhere classified, which decreased by 15.3%.

Total production output in October 2015 is estimated to have increased by 0.1% compared with September 2015. There were increases in 3 of the 4 main sectors, with the largest positive contribution coming from the water supply, sewerage & waste management output, which increased by 1.7%.

Manufacturing output decreased by 0.4% in October 2015 compared with September 2015. The largest contribution to the decrease came from other manufacturing & repair, which decreased by 5.4%.

In the 3 months to October 2015, production and manufacturing were 8.9% and 6.1% respectively below their figures reached in the pre-downturn GDP peak in Q1 2008.

#longtermeconomicplan

#rebalancingtheeconomy

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Tue 08 Dec, 2015 11:10 am

yahyah wrote:Interesting to read that Tim Farron & Rory Stewart, both MPs in the flooded areas, were vehemently against, and openly critical of, natural land management schemes that would have helped decrease flooding.

GeorgeMonbiot ‏@GeorgeMonbiot 2h2 hours ago
.@RoryStewartUK campaigned against measures to mitigate #flooding. Now minister in charge of ... flooding. My column http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... aris-talks" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …

If the NFU don't like it, tory MPs don't like it. Not sure what Farron's excuse is.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Tue 08 Dec, 2015 11:24 am

A view of at least one Momentum meeting, attended by the Shadow Chancellor no less.

Linked at the Guardian, so they at least consider it noteworthy. Be warned it is hosted on Con home.

http://www.conservativehome.com/leftwat ... tions.html

I will be interested to see if there is any rebuttal.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Tue 08 Dec, 2015 11:26 am

TechnicalEphemera wrote:A view of at least one Momentum meeting, attended by the Shadow Chancellor no less.

Linked at the Guardian, so they at least consider it noteworthy. Be warned it is hosted on Con home.

http://www.conservativehome.com/leftwat ... tions.html

I will be interested to see if there is any rebuttal.

ConHome. Makes a change from The Telegraph.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 08 Dec, 2015 11:30 am

TechnicalEphemera wrote:A view of at least one Momentum meeting, attended by the Shadow Chancellor no less.

Linked at the Guardian, so they at least consider it noteworthy. Be warned it is hosted on Con home.

http://www.conservativehome.com/leftwat ... tions.html

I will be interested to see if there is any rebuttal.

There already has been - can't be bothered finding it.

TheGrimSqueaker · Post by **TheGrimSqueaker** » Tue 08 Dec, 2015 11:36 am

TechnicalEphemera wrote:A view of at least one Momentum meeting, attended by the Shadow Chancellor no less.

Linked at the Guardian, so they at least consider it noteworthy. Be warned it is hosted on Con home.

http://www.conservativehome.com/leftwat ... tions.html

I will be interested to see if there is any rebuttal.

Of course they consider it newsworthy, doesn't mean it has any basis in truth; the Guardian line is to do own Corbyn, as they did with Miliband before the GE, all of them (including Sparrow) don't bother to hide their bias any longer.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 08 Dec, 2015 11:39 am

And seriously TE, you are not just posting a piece from ToryHome (which does have interesting stuff occasionally, I admit) but by a former Taxpayers Alliance propagandist.

If asked which out of that group and Momentum was the more injurious to our political culture, I don't have much doubt how I would answer.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Tue 08 Dec, 2015 11:41 am

RogerOThornhill wrote:The March of the Makers seem to have taken a wrong turn somewhere along the road...

http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/iop/index ... ct-15.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Total production output is estimated to have increased by 1.7% in October 2015 compared with October 2014. There were increases in 3 of the 4 main sectors, with mining & quarrying output being the largest contributor, increasing by 8.5%.

Manufacturing output decreased by 0.1% in October 2015 compared with October 2014. The largest contribution to the decrease came from the manufacture of machinery & equipment not elsewhere classified, which decreased by 15.3%.

Total production output in October 2015 is estimated to have increased by 0.1% compared with September 2015. There were increases in 3 of the 4 main sectors, with the largest positive contribution coming from the water supply, sewerage & waste management output, which increased by 1.7%.

Manufacturing output decreased by 0.4% in October 2015 compared with September 2015. The largest contribution to the decrease came from other manufacturing & repair, which decreased by 5.4%.

In the 3 months to October 2015, production and manufacturing were 8.9% and 6.1% respectively below their figures reached in the pre-downturn GDP peak in Q1 2008.
#longtermeconomicplan

#rebalancingtheeconomy

Interesting article on Jersey, showing the dangers of relying on a low corporate tax economy to compete; plus the risks of throwing all your eggs in the finance basket.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015 ... -goes-bust

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Tue 08 Dec, 2015 11:46 am

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
RogerOThornhill wrote:The March of the Makers seem to have taken a wrong turn somewhere along the road...

http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/iop/index ... ct-15.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Total production output is estimated to have increased by 1.7% in October 2015 compared with October 2014. There were increases in 3 of the 4 main sectors, with mining & quarrying output being the largest contributor, increasing by 8.5%.

Manufacturing output decreased by 0.1% in October 2015 compared with October 2014. The largest contribution to the decrease came from the manufacture of machinery & equipment not elsewhere classified, which decreased by 15.3%.

Total production output in October 2015 is estimated to have increased by 0.1% compared with September 2015. There were increases in 3 of the 4 main sectors, with the largest positive contribution coming from the water supply, sewerage & waste management output, which increased by 1.7%.

Manufacturing output decreased by 0.4% in October 2015 compared with September 2015. The largest contribution to the decrease came from other manufacturing & repair, which decreased by 5.4%.

In the 3 months to October 2015, production and manufacturing were 8.9% and 6.1% respectively below their figures reached in the pre-downturn GDP peak in Q1 2008.
#longtermeconomicplan

#rebalancingtheeconomy
Interesting article on Jersey, showing the dangers of relying on a low corporate tax economy to compete; plus the risks of throwing all your eggs in the finance basket.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015 ... -goes-bust

Yes, ever since reading Treasure Islands I've been keeping up with the Tax Justice Network, Jersey is an interesting case.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 08 Dec, 2015 11:55 am

Will Black ‏@WillBlackWriter 3 hrs3 hours ago

Today I'm going to be tweeting in the style of Liz Truss, so apologies if tweets are incoherent, wrong, evasive or just plain balls

Now that's what I call a perfect quote.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 08 Dec, 2015 11:55 am

Good morfternoon.

Jack Blanchard @Jack_Blanchard_

Oof. The OBR kicks Cameron right where it hurts. Changes to benefits rules will have "little impact" on number of migrants moving to Britain
10:45 AM - 8 Dec 2015 (Politics Live, Guardian)

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Tue 08 Dec, 2015 11:59 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:And seriously TE, you are not just posting a piece from ToryHome (which does have interesting stuff occasionally, I admit) but by a former Taxpayers Alliance propagandist.

If asked which out of that group and Momentum was the more injurious to our political culture, I don't have much doubt how I would answer.

So your approach to this is not to say - interesting I will stick that in the pile of information we have.

But to complain that it is all rubbish because you don't like the source; and then to argue it shouldn't have been posted in the first place.

Confirmation bias is a huge risk in evaluating any argument. We have good stories about Momentum, we have reports of bad behaviour about them as well. The evidence needs to be collected and analysed from all sides.

In answer to your question, which is a daft question to ask. Do I dislike - TPA hugely, do I trust the source, not entirely, do I believe every word written there, no, do I believe all of it was made up, no. Further information from other sources will no doubt emerge.

Maeght · Post by **Maeght** » Tue 08 Dec, 2015 12:07 pm

TheGrimSqueaker wrote:'Classy' piece of 'journalism' on pages 2 & 3 of today's Sun from Toby Young; can be summarised as "if you are brown then f*** off". How that rag doesn't get prosecuted for incitement to hatred is beyond me, it is almost as if they have some of the police in their pocket ........

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/su ... leave.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The only decent comment BTL said it was "ignorant and spiteful". I completely agree.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Tue 08 Dec, 2015 12:07 pm

StephenDolan wrote:
TechnicalEphemera wrote:A view of at least one Momentum meeting, attended by the Shadow Chancellor no less.

Linked at the Guardian, so they at least consider it noteworthy. Be warned it is hosted on Con home.

http://www.conservativehome.com/leftwat ... tions.html

I will be interested to see if there is any rebuttal.
ConHome. Makes a change from The Telegraph.

Yes I had forgotten - we now only listen to media we agree with, and all other information is to be somehow discarded as complete fabrication.

The Telegraph is out, clearly, Indy Pravda (we quite like them at the moment, despite their obvious Putin leanings), the Guardian is apparently highly suspect as well these days.

None of the regular sources of media are reliable, which is why you look at all of them. It is really reported by Sparrow (suspected anti Corbynite), oddly Con Home isn't a page I would ever casually visit.

Unlike LDV, which often amuses.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Tue 08 Dec, 2015 12:11 pm

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:And seriously TE, you are not just posting a piece from ToryHome (which does have interesting stuff occasionally, I admit) but by a former Taxpayers Alliance propagandist.

If asked which out of that group and Momentum was the more injurious to our political culture, I don't have much doubt how I would answer.
So your approach to this is not to say - interesting I will stick that in the pile of information we have.

But to complain that it is all rubbish because you don't like the source; and then to argue it shouldn't have been posted in the first place.

Confirmation bias is a huge risk in evaluating any argument. We have good stories about Momentum, we have reports of bad behaviour about them as well. The evidence needs to be collected and analysed from all sides.

In answer to your question, which is a daft question to ask. Do I dislike - TPA hugely, do I trust the source, not entirely, do I believe every word written there, no, do I believe all of it was made up, no. Further information from other sources will no doubt emerge.

TE. I look forward to this discussion continuing when other sources emerge.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Tue 08 Dec, 2015 12:13 pm

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
StephenDolan wrote:
TechnicalEphemera wrote:A view of at least one Momentum meeting, attended by the Shadow Chancellor no less.

Linked at the Guardian, so they at least consider it noteworthy. Be warned it is hosted on Con home.

http://www.conservativehome.com/leftwat ... tions.html

I will be interested to see if there is any rebuttal.
ConHome. Makes a change from The Telegraph.

Yes I had forgotten - we now only listen to media we agree with, and all other information is to be somehow discarded as complete fabrication.

The Telegraph is out, clearly, Indy Pravda (we quite like them at the moment, despite their obvious Putin leanings), the Guardian is apparently highly suspect as well these days.

None of the regular sources of media are reliable, which is why you look at all of them. It is really reported by Sparrow (suspected anti Corbynite), oddly Con Home isn't a page I would ever casually visit.

Unlike LDV, which often amuses.

Yes, I am indeed calling for a distilling of information sources to the approved list. Squeeze in all, this echo chamber needs shrinking for maximum effect.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 08 Dec, 2015 12:18 pm

All we are saying is that places like the Torygraph and ConHome are not automatically the "go to" places if you want rational, spin free comment on current Labour party goings on.

(nor is the Guardian, of course - but that is another story)

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 08 Dec, 2015 12:41 pm

Does such a place exist ?

TheGrimSqueaker · Post by **TheGrimSqueaker** » Tue 08 Dec, 2015 12:45 pm

Maeght wrote:
TheGrimSqueaker wrote:'Classy' piece of 'journalism' on pages 2 & 3 of today's Sun from Toby Young; can be summarised as "if you are brown then f*** off". How that rag doesn't get prosecuted for incitement to hatred is beyond me, it is almost as if they have some of the police in their pocket ........

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/su ... leave.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The only decent comment BTL said it was "ignorant and spiteful". I completely agree.

It was certainly spiteful, but I'd disagree with the word "ignorant"; he knows exactly what he is doing with that piece, all done with malice aforethought. If anybody constitutes a danger to the fabric of this country it is the people who work on that rag.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 08 Dec, 2015 12:58 pm

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 08 Dec, 2015 12:59 pm

Nearly everyone smiling, or cheering, or both in that pic.

But a rather sour looking face peeping out behind Jezza's head.
Looks suspiciously like Simon Danczuk.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 08 Dec, 2015 1:09 pm

I found this deeply disturbing

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015 ... s-syndrome" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Hospital says sorry for do not resuscitate order on man with Down's syndrome

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 08 Dec, 2015 1:10 pm

yahyah wrote:Does such a place exist ?

A very good question - the vast majority of the MSM is a write off. Maybe the least biased coverage in any "mainstream" outlet currently is in the Huffington Post?

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Tue 08 Dec, 2015 1:21 pm

For a straight talking, unbiased, unspun view without any hidden agenda I always turn to rt.com.

Purge? Corbyn’s Momentum group to exclude socialists

Content of article doesn't quite live up to headline though.

https://www.rt.com/uk/325090-momentum-purge-far-left/

Labour Party Leader Jeremy Corbyn’s Momentum group and senior MPs are trying to block the influence of leftist groups, such as the Socialist Party of England & Wales, citing fears of entryist hijacking.
A central part of the effort will involve drawing up of a new code of conduct that will block socialists and communists from being elected to leadership roles and attending debates.
The move is partially driven by fears that leftist organizations could discredit the movement, which was set up to continue the spirit and energy developed during Corbyn’s leadership election campaign.
Many grassroots activists and far-left groups have called for the deselection of unpopular Labour MPs, including those who voted for bombing Syria last Wednesday.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 08 Dec, 2015 1:24 pm

Hope this is true, from AS's blog

Antoniovivaldi 2m ago
News just in. My sources tell me that Telford police are questioning their local MP Lucy Allan right now, but very privately, about the fake death threat. Numerous complaints have been made by members of the public. Why have the Plod been so slow to act? I can't imagine.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Tue 08 Dec, 2015 1:28 pm

Tim Farron is a bit of a twerp a lot of the time - but he's had a really good idea.

Seriously.

He has suggested that all those who have second/holiday homes in the flood-affected areas make them available to local people who cannot return to their own homes. He says that this would show that they have "solidarity" with the locals.

The cynic in me is inclined towards the view that these second-home owners are more likely than not to say no - I hope I'm wrong. It seems to me that if they had any "solidarity" with the locals they would be living there and not helping to price said locals out of the market.......but if anyone does as Farron suggests, then I will applaud them.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 08 Dec, 2015 1:31 pm

Good idea, but they may not take it up as they would not get tax breaks I believe.

May be wrong and got the wrong end of the stick but when we moved to Wales we'd sold our house and needed accomodation for three to six months while finding a house.

I tried some contacting holiday let houses, as it was in low season, but several told me if they let it on a long lease it affected them financially under the set up for holiday lets.

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Tue 08 Dec, 2015 1:36 pm

Got my mojo working

: CVnOLDPWUAAVoOtooooo.jpg (126.04 KiB) Viewed 10691 times

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Tue 08 Dec, 2015 1:43 pm

: ScreenShot01237.jpg (69.03 KiB) Viewed 10681 times

Dear Guardian

First off, I want to thank you for being the main source of my news for the past 20 plus years. Now 31, I have been an avid reader of the newspaper since I was a wee boy. Admittedly I no longer buy a copy everyday (along with the observer) as I rarely have the time to sit down and read the entire thing, but I still do on average three times a week and the Guardian website is the first website I go to on my laptop and I Phone.

Thank you for breaking the best stories, having the best commentators and generally having an angle I could trust, over this time.

However, the Guardian’s political coverage has sharply deteriorated since the election of Jeremy Corbyn and I will no longer be buying the newspaper or visiting the website. Admittedly it will be very difficult to not visit the website because it’s so ingrained in my behaviour. I’ve been trying the past few weeks to avoid it but keep on finding myself back there! But after this email, I hereby declare that I will never buy a Guardian newspaper or browse the website again.

In recent weeks I’ve read the Guardian’s coverage of Corbyn with disbelief. The drip feed of anti-Corbyn bias has got ridiculous. Remember the story of John McDonnell’s Little Red Book joke? Well that was an ironic joke about Osbourne’s public investment strategy, reliant as it is on the Chinese state, an authoritarian dictatorship. The Guardian’s interpretation? That McDonnell was referencing Mao as one of his heros, backed up with a ridiculous quote from Chuka Umuna to that effect. I’d expect such a tactic from the Daily Mail.

Or take the recent coverage of the Oldham by-election. During the build-up, the Guardian’s frame was that Labour was struggling because of Corbyn. The election was dubbed as a test of Corbyn’s Labour Party. There was recognition that Labour would probably win, but a low victory was predicted (“Labour works around Jeremy Corbyn in Greater Manchester”).

During the build-up, I expected something was amiss. I can say that as a Labour party activist in a northern city (Leicester) Corbyn has made campaigning far easier because we have a positive platform and a clear difference with the Tories. Surely this is something to tap into?

Fast forward to news of Labour’s emphatic victory, where Labour extended its lead by 7.5% to 62.3%, the Guardian’s view is that victory has very little to do with Corbyn and everything to do with Jim McMahon, the local guy who won despite the leadership.

Now, I wouldn’t want to take anything away from McMahon, who is clearly a fantastic local politician. But an extension of Labour’s lead is astounding given everything that has gone on, the turmoil in Labour following the Syria vote and relentless hostility in the national media. Something about Corbyn’s leadership is proving popular at the ballot box, despite the Guardian’s best efforts to set him up for a fall.

Indeed, over these past few months, I have come to understand the nature of the Guardian: it’s certainly not a modern incarnation of the “Poor Man’s Guardian”. That paper, originating in 1831, was part of the radical press which burgeoned following the advent of the printing press. It provided for the news and intellectual needs of working people, having as its motto “knowledge is power”.

Today’s Guardian is “guardian” in a more Orwellian sense: a paper that polices leftwing discourse, that sets limits on what is acceptable for leftwing politics, and what is acceptable is basically Blair without Iraq. Rafael Behr, Polly Toynbee, Jonathan Freedland: all are echoing this anti-Corbyn, essentially Blairite line.

It’s therefore with a sorry heart that I say goodbye. Like those who turned to the radical press in the 19th century, I shall turn to online news sources and social media where established filters do not apply. It is annoying though, as I do enjoy a good broadsheet and a cuppa.

Yours,

Tom Mills

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Tue 08 Dec, 2015 1:43 pm

ephemerid wrote:Tim Farron is a bit of a twerp a lot of the time - but he's had a really good idea.

Seriously.

He has suggested that all those who have second/holiday homes in the flood-affected areas make them available to local people who cannot return to their own homes. He says that this would show that they have "solidarity" with the locals.

The cynic in me is inclined towards the view that these second-home owners are more likely than not to say no - I hope I'm wrong. It seems to me that if they had any "solidarity" with the locals they would be living there and not helping to price said locals out of the market.......but if anyone does as Farron suggests, then I will applaud them.

One problem would be that a lot of second homes in (esp. Keswick) area are rented out most of the year as holiday homes.
Suspect that Xmas may be a peak season in the area, partly through renting for holidays,
but otherwise second home owners using them for their own uses.

Also problem would be length of time accommodation would be needed,
again as owners would aim to be renting out to holidaymakers,
but also guessing there may be insurance costs, letting someone stay for a long period.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 08 Dec, 2015 1:49 pm

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015 ... ry-doctors" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

NHS rationing 'denying patients care' as cash crisis deepens
Survey of doctors reveals concern about adults and children being denied treatment, resulting in emergency care or worsening of long-term conditions