Wednesday 3rd February 2016

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 03 Feb, 2016 6:54 am

Morning all.

I love lists such as these that show how sketchy Cameron has been over Europe.

David Cameron's ever-shifting view of Britain's place in EU

http://gu.com/p/4gbkb" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 03 Feb, 2016 7:10 am

Morning!

There is something both funny and sinister for me in this from the Sun

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Wed 03 Feb, 2016 7:59 am

StephenDolan wrote:Morning all.

I love lists such as these that show how sketchy Cameron has been over Europe.

David Cameron's ever-shifting view of Britain's place in EU

http://gu.com/p/4gbkb" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That's very good......

Now, let me see - have I got this right.....

OGRPPFGTCC thinks he is likely to lose votes to UKIP, is unlikely to win the GE, and at best will have to go into another coalition.
So he offers an in-out referendum to sort out UKIP, believing that his likely coalition partners will not let it happen.
He plans to blame the LibDems for preventing him from pursuing his manifesto commitment.

OGRPPFGTCC actually scrapes into office with a working majority and his expected coalition partners are toast.
He hasn't bargained for this - and now he has to have the referendum (and enact a load of other stuff he thought he'd avoid..)
So he farts about with the date, talks tough for a few months, and promises a better deal for Britain.

Off he goes, having all manner of talks with the leaders of countries he would normally ignore, and gets nowhere.
Then he insists that immigration from the EU, which has risen under his watch, is all due to our generous benefits system.
So the plan now is to stop paying in-work benefits to the tiny number of EU migrants who claim them.

OGRPPFGTCC has steadfastly refused FOI requests from multiple applicants to release the figures on EU migrant claims for benefits.
Number-crunchers have estimated that there are probably about 2 Million EU migrants working in the UK in total.
They also estimate that less than 10% of them claim any benefits of any kind - DWP and HMRC will not publish figures.
EU migrants who live in the household of a UK national who claims benefits may be counted even if they don't claim themselves.
EU migrants who have been living and working here for many years are also counted if they get any state support at all.

The ONS states that 271,000 EU nationals came to the UK in 2014/15 - and 269,000 of them went straight into full time work.
In the same year, 300,000 non-EU immigrants arrived, with 90,000 of them coming to join a spouse or family member.

OGRPPFGTCC insists that all these EU migrants are claiming our benefits and this must be stopped.
In fact, the likelihood is that the actual numbers are, as the ONS puts it, "statistically insignificant".

Never mind all that - the important thing is for OGRPPFGTCC to be seen to be doing something about a problem that doesn't exist.
To that end, he is now crowing about his "emergency brake" on EU migrants claiming benefits.

This "emergency brake" cannot be applied for at least another 18 months - ie. July 2017.
It cannot be applied unless the UK remains a full EU member post-referendum.
It cannot be applied unless the number of EU migrants is more than 180,000 PA.
It cannot be applied without other member states agreeing in principle.

This is what OGRPPFGTCC calls victory and a good deal.
None of it has been agreed by other member states - it is a draft proposal.

As for all the other "demands", most of them are already do-able under the current treaty provisions.

As usual, Slimy Dave has done nothing, achieved nothing, and ponced about looking like a prat for zero gain.
As usual, Slimy Dave has pissed off other leaders, lied to the people of the UK, and nothing has changed.

Yep.

I think I've got that right.....

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Wed 03 Feb, 2016 8:17 am

Good morning.

I just thought I'd look over the Channel and see what our European friends thought of OGRPPFGTCC:

Brexit-Debatte: Euroskeptiker spotten über Camerons vermeintlichen Erfolg (http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/b ... 75237.html);

« Brexit » : ce que contient l’ébauche de compromis proposé à David Cameron (http://www.lemonde.fr/international/art ... _3210.html);

« Brexit » : Bruxelles démine la négociation avec Londres, sans y parvenir complètement (http://www.lemonde.fr/europe/article/20 ... _3214.html)

I was a little surprised that there were less of a mocking tone than I expected, so looked at El Pais who were a little more disparaging and polishing poo at least got a mention.

Cameron apoya permanecer en la UE con la propuesta de Tusk (http://internacional.elpais.com/interna ... 84287.html).

Finally I thought of our Polish friends. One of my grandfathers was Polish as it happens, not that I speak a word of Polish btw. Now that is more what I expected.

Unia wielka z Brytanią (http://wyborcza.pl/1,75477,19573432,uni ... tania.html).

He's such an embarrassment both at home and on the world stage. I'm bloody glad I'm not the pig-botherer, I wouldn't be able to show my face anywhere.

I may prefer to read the originals but Google Translate is my friend.

danesclose · Post by **danesclose** » Wed 03 Feb, 2016 8:35 am

utopiandreams wrote:Good morning.

I just thought I'd look over the Channel and see what our European friends thought of OGRPPFGTCC:

Brexit-Debatte: Euroskeptiker spotten über Camerons vermeintlichen Erfolg (http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/b ... 75237.html);

« Brexit » : ce que contient l’ébauche de compromis proposé à David Cameron (http://www.lemonde.fr/international/art ... _3210.html);

« Brexit » : Bruxelles démine la négociation avec Londres, sans y parvenir complètement (http://www.lemonde.fr/europe/article/20 ... _3214.html)

I was a little surprised that there were less of a mocking tone than I expected, so looked at El Pais who were a little more disparaging and polishing poo at least got a mention.

Cameron apoya permanecer en la UE con la propuesta de Tusk (http://internacional.elpais.com/interna ... 84287.html).

Finally I thought of our Polish friends. One of my grandfathers was Polish as it happens, not that I speak a word of Polish btw. Now that is more what I expected.

Unia wielka z Brytanią (http://wyborcza.pl/1,75477,19573432,uni ... tania.html).

He's such an embarrassment both at home and on the world stage. I'm bloody glad I'm not the pig-botherer, I wouldn't be able to show my face anywhere..

I may prefer to read the originals but Google Translate is my friend.

Morning UD, and many thanks for the continental round up. One thing you've overlooked about the Pig Botherer. He has absolutely no shame whatsoever.

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Wed 03 Feb, 2016 8:51 am

Cheers, danesclose, you've hit on something there. I guess surviving male boarding school must knock all sense of shame out of you. That's my being generous btw... especially difficult when applied to Cameron.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 03 Feb, 2016 8:55 am

Oh well at least we can look forward to Laura Kuenssberg highlighting all the splits in the Conservative party and orchestrating a few resignations on air.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 03 Feb, 2016 9:55 am

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Oh well at least we can look forward to Laura Kuenssberg highlighting all the splits in the Conservative party and orchestrating a few resignations on air.

Good one. I Tweeted it ...

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 03 Feb, 2016 10:00 am

I can't download images from Twitter at present, but have just seen Cameron described [supposedly by other EU leaders] as Wavy Dave

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Wed 03 Feb, 2016 10:06 am

ohsocynical wrote:I can't download images from Twitter at present, but have just seen Cameron described [supposedly by other EU leaders] as Wavy Dave

For their sake I hope they're not afflicted by the image I had yesterday of his applying lipstick without the pig.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Wed 03 Feb, 2016 10:06 am

Goldman Sachs Says It May Be Forced to Fundamentally Question How Capitalism Is Working
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/ ... is-working" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

if we are wrong and high margins manage to endure for the next few years (particularly when global demand growth is below trend), there are broader questions to be asked about the efficacy of capitalism."

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Wed 03 Feb, 2016 10:19 am

I posted this in the other place. Albeit less, it may have some relevance here as Cameron's stance can be conflated with the more fundamental issues, at least on an emotional level...

To strike a more serious note I'm bloody furious with our acting PM, the guy who thought he would be good at it. I appreciate there are some who may attack me for being 'undemocratic' but frankly I do not believe in rule by the mob. Cameron has shown nothing but weakness in making this whole issue all about him and his party. Not that I approve of many things Europe nowadays but still believe internationalism is our only path for the twenty-first century, certainly better than a Tory hegemony anyway.

I nearly forgot what I was going to say and that was, please let's not have a repeat of the AV referendum where many voted to give Clegg a bloody nose. Brexit or Bremain is not about Cameron at all no matter his showboating, let us address the issues.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 03 Feb, 2016 10:32 am

Big push for NHS Wales on Twitter today...

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 03 Feb, 2016 10:34 am

Pondering over the best scenario regarding the referendum. I'm thinking a nasty campaign from both sides, preferably with Labour staying out of it, and a couple of percentage points win for Remain. Enough to keep the Outers in his party and the press angry at Cameron. He has referred to this as his referendum after all. A pyrrhic victory please.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Wed 03 Feb, 2016 10:36 am

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... -mps-claim" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

MPs have accused the Department for Work and Pensions of using “evasive” measures to prevent parliament from finding out why there have been yet more delays to the universal credit scheme.

You really have to wonder how long this can carry on for. Has UC been signed off by the treasury yet? Last I read it hadn't but that's a year ago. And how can it be claimed to be on schedule when its already 4 years late roll-out has just been put back 6 months to late 2021? I know the Tories have a majority and IDS appears to have some hold over Cameron, but surely there must be some civil servants etc with a little pride who are willing to put some pressure on behind closed doors and point out that this simply isn't good enough. Government really shouldn't be able to brush under the carpet incompetence on this level. Labour were advised UC couldn't be done. I've seen no indication yet that that original advice was inaccurate.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 03 Feb, 2016 10:43 am

Willow904 wrote:http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... -mps-claim
MPs have accused the Department for Work and Pensions of using “evasive” measures to prevent parliament from finding out why there have been yet more delays to the universal credit scheme.
You really have to wonder how long this can carry on for. Has UC been signed off by the treasury yet? Last I read it hadn't but that's a year ago. And how can it be claimed to be on schedule when its already 4 years late roll-out has just been put back 6 months to late 2021? I know the Tories have a majority and IDS appears to have some hold over Cameron, but surely there must be some civil servants etc with a little pride who are willing to put some pressure on behind closed doors and point out that this simply isn't good enough. Government really shouldn't be able to brush under the carpet incompetence on this level. Labour were advised UC couldn't be done. I've seen no indication yet that that original advice was inaccurate.

Its timetable was reset. Measuring from that point it may be on time. I'd be interested to hear what the civil servants think of this escalating clusterfuck.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 03 Feb, 2016 11:00 am

Good-morning, everyone.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 03 Feb, 2016 11:03 am

Existing milestones

1)The Department has publicly set out five milestones for monitoring progress of Universal Credit

Finish rolling-out live service nationwide during 2015–16
Start rolling-out the digital service in May 2016
Complete the roll-out digital service within 24 months
Start the managed migration of existing claimants onto Universal Credit in 2018
Finish the bulkof managed migration near the end of 2019

2)The Department and HM Treasury have also publicly discussed other milestones, such as:

The expected date for approving the full business case in September 2017
The end of live service in October 2018
The completion of the migration of all claimants onto Universal Credit in March 2021

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 03 Feb, 2016 11:03 am

Dave has his worst day of newspaper headlines since the GE, without a doubt. And the thing is, it was all avoidable (both short and long term)

Eric_WLothian · Post by **Eric_WLothian** » Wed 03 Feb, 2016 11:09 am

utopiandreams wrote:Cheers, danesclose, you've hit on something there. I guess surviving male boarding school must knock all sense of shame out of you. That's my being generous btw... especially difficult when applied to Cameron.

I went to a (male) boarding (not public) school and I couldn't disagree more!

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 03 Feb, 2016 11:09 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Dave has his worst day of newspaper headlines since the GE, without a doubt. And the thing is, it was all avoidable (both short and long term)

The worst so far

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 03 Feb, 2016 11:10 am

3rd Reading Welfare and Work Bill in Lords scheduled for next Tuesday
http://services.parliament.uk/bills/201 ... dwork.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 03 Feb, 2016 11:31 am

The Daily Politics.
"They'll also hear from Conservative MP Liam Fox, Labour's Kate Hoey, UKIP leader Nigel Farage and Green MP Caroline Lucas on the draft EU deal and Europe."

Good luck with that lineup Lucas!

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 03 Feb, 2016 11:35 am

Ah yes, the sort of balanced line up we have become all too familiar with on DP

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Wed 03 Feb, 2016 11:41 am

@Eric_WLothian

Yeah excuse my sweeping statement made with a broad brush, Eric, but then it was based on colonial stories added to the, let's call them, proclivities of some of our so-called 'upper-classes'. I note you've cast yourself outside of such groups though even if I shouldn't make such generalisations. I have had mates that attended such places btw but am also prone to sometimes ill-advised banter.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Wed 03 Feb, 2016 1:11 pm

Afternoon all.

Thank you Ephie. We now have the near perfect twinning of Snorty & Slimy - spot on descriptors for our Chancellor and PM.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 03 Feb, 2016 1:13 pm

Out for a couple of hours this morning at charity shops completing my summer wardrobe. A dress, a pair of trousers and 3 pairs of shoes, plus a wastepaper bin, a deep Pyrex baking dish, three cups that match some I have at home, plus a book [all for seventeen pounds and a penny!]

While on the way home listening to the radio, I heard that Cameron's promise to do something about obesity including looking at how much sugar goes into our foods, has, after a couple of delays, been dropped...
Why am I not surprised. Lansley promised the same thing when he was MofH but then dropped it like a hot potato.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Wed 03 Feb, 2016 1:14 pm

Kevin Maguire ‏@Kevin_Maguire 3m3 minutes ago
Boris Johnson manspreading and making no effort to speak. Tie hanging down to cover his bits. Horrible sight

What a vile image.

Our HoC just doesn't command respect anymore.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 03 Feb, 2016 1:21 pm

Brilliant tweet by Isabel Hardman re IDS

danesclose · Post by **danesclose** » Wed 03 Feb, 2016 1:22 pm

Steve Bell's cartoon in today's Guardian is laugh out loud brilliant (IMHO)

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... ns-cartoon" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

55DegreesNorth · Post by **55DegreesNorth** » Wed 03 Feb, 2016 1:24 pm

Afternoon folks,
Have you heard of this creep & his plans?
http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/nor ... g-10823431" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

He want to organise a meeting of pro-rape men in Newcastle on Saturday night. That's going to end badly.

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Wed 03 Feb, 2016 1:25 pm

Eric_WLothian wrote:
utopiandreams wrote:Cheers, danesclose, you've hit on something there. I guess surviving male boarding school must knock all sense of shame out of you. That's my being generous btw... especially difficult when applied to Cameron.
I went to a (male) boarding (not public) school and I couldn't disagree more!

So did I, and concur with you. The brightest and best from my school did not go into politics, they went into Media/IT/Law/Arts/Medicine. In fact, going on the couple of lib dem old boys in the last govt, it was the more stupid and reactionary from my place who ended up as politicians.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Wed 03 Feb, 2016 1:27 pm

Now taxman goes after childminders: HMRC sends thousands of letters demanding information about their work so nannies can claim tax credits
HMRC is investigating childminders claiming a state top-up to their income
Nannies must show how they spend each day and their customer database
Accused of claiming work tax credits when they're babysitting friend's kids
Childminders could face fines of up to £3,000 for providing the wrong information on purpose
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... edits.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Childminders are being chased for thousands of pounds by the tax authorities under a highly aggressive crackdown.
HM Revenue & Customs is investigating the financial affairs of childminders who claim a state top-up to their income called working tax credits.
Thousands of aggressive letters have been sent out demanding childminders provide up-to-date accounts and other evidence that they work.
The onerous demands include providing a breakdown of how childminders spend their days, copies of adverts they have placed, print outs showing activity on social media websites and the names and addresses of customers...

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 03 Feb, 2016 1:29 pm

danesclose wrote:Steve Bell's cartoon in today's Guardian is laugh out loud brilliant (IMHO)

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... ns-cartoon" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Wed 03 Feb, 2016 1:39 pm

from G live blog:

Labour’s Caroline Flint congratulates Cameron for addressing the issue of EU migrants’ benefits. Can Cameron confirm that, if Britain leaves the EU, the French will withdraw cooperation over Calais.

Cameron thanks her for what she said about the “emergency brake”. He says the UK benefits from French cooperation at Calais.

Eh?

to just about everything in that excerpt. What is Caroline Flint doing congratulating Cameron for that? What on earth is that response by Cameron ... he's just confirming the current situation. Eh?

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Wed 03 Feb, 2016 1:43 pm

James Forsyth ‏@JGForsyth 6m6 minutes ago
Striking how civil Tory 'sceptics Qs have been. If it carries on this way, will be far easier than expected to put Tory party together again

Isabel Hardman ‏@IsabelHardman 4m4 minutes ago
This has hardly been an onslaught for Cameron from his own MPs. I’d say harshest question of all day came from John Mann at PMQs.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Wed 03 Feb, 2016 1:45 pm

James Kirkup ‏@jameskirkup 3m3 minutes ago
Interesting to hear David Cameron tell Conservative MPs to ignore local party members on #EUref
For reference:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politic ... loons.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Wed 03 Feb, 2016 1:53 pm

Cameron’s Britain: MPs complain about paying 4 quid for venison pie while sick and dying get no help
https://tompride.wordpress.com/2016/02/ ... t-no-help/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 03 Feb, 2016 2:00 pm

http://www.theguardian.com/business/201 ... SApp_Other" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

DWP post for Amazon boss 'disgusting', says Margaret Hodge

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 03 Feb, 2016 2:05 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
James Forsyth ‏@JGForsyth 6m6 minutes ago
Striking how civil Tory 'sceptics Qs have been. If it carries on this way, will be far easier than expected to put Tory party together again

Isabel Hardman ‏@IsabelHardman 4m4 minutes ago
This has hardly been an onslaught for Cameron from his own MPs. I’d say harshest question of all day came from John Mann at PMQs.

Calm before the storm - or maybe sceptic MPs thought the papers had already done the job for them?

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 03 Feb, 2016 2:05 pm

Link to live stream of PAC session on outsourced Health and Disability assessments due to start at 14.30,for those interested.
http://parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/2b ... bc9ab2aa54" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Wed 03 Feb, 2016 2:07 pm

Chris Bryant MP ‏@RhonddaBryant 4m4 minutes ago
Three Tory MPs have told me they want IN to win but will vote OUT.

Why on earth would they do that? Someone explain please. Is this them having to vote OUT to placate their members? Surely ballots are still secret ... how would their members get to know ... unless they don't trust the returning officers.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Wed 03 Feb, 2016 2:23 pm

PMQs review: Jeremy Corbyn unsettles David Cameron on cancer care
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk ... ancer-care" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Wed 03 Feb, 2016 2:36 pm

RobertSnozers wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:
PMQs review: Jeremy Corbyn unsettles David Cameron on cancer care
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk ... ancer-care" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
This was interesting:

After an uncomfortable opening, the PM resolved that attack was the best form of defence. As he did so often against Ed Miliband, he savaged the Welsh Labour administration's NHS cuts, demanding that Corbyn "pick up the phone" and insisting that he could not "wash his hands" of the matter (though if devolution means anything, he can do just that). The Labour leader sharply riposted that Wales's cancer survival rate was the best in the UK.
Suggests that Corbyn and his team were well aware of the likely attack and had prepared for it. A good sign, I think. Miliband was, in my view, always best at PMQs when he wrongfooted Cameron using facts and detail, making Cameron's responses look vague and general. Perhaps this approach will work for Corbyn, too.

I spotted that and thought the same Robert. Encouraging I hope. And I learnt something positive about Wales NHS too! Corbyn should be planning regular such ways to plant positive bits of news about Welsh Labour and other Labour initiatives in future. That would really unsettle Slimy Dave ... he wouldn't know what his inevitable attack defence was going to result in.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Wed 03 Feb, 2016 2:43 pm

Are you watching the PAC session HindleA? Just tuned in. These witnesses (for want of a better word) are good, aren't they? Hoping the questions are going to be properly targeted and developed.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 03 Feb, 2016 2:45 pm

RobertSnozers wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:
Calm before the storm - or maybe sceptic MPs thought the papers had already done the job for them?
I don't know. I suspect the party will rally behind Cameron as it has done before. Perhaps normally difficult MPs fear being shuffled out of their seats after the boundary review.

Didn't I read that Osborne has asked something like do they want a job in politics or not. That'll be enough to shut most of their mouths...

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 03 Feb, 2016 2:47 pm

RobertSnozers wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:
RobertSnozers wrote: This was interesting:
Suggests that Corbyn and his team were well aware of the likely attack and had prepared for it. A good sign, I think. Miliband was, in my view, always best at PMQs when he wrongfooted Cameron using facts and detail, making Cameron's responses look vague and general. Perhaps this approach will work for Corbyn, too.
I spotted that and thought the same Robert. Encouraging I hope. And I learnt something positive about Wales NHS too! Corbyn should be planning regular such ways to plant positive bits of news about Welsh Labour and other Labour initiatives in future. That would really unsettle Slimy Dave ... he wouldn't know what his inevitable attack defence was going to result in.
The Welsh assembly government should be ramming the positives home as well. I gather Labour is under fire from all sides on this.

There was a lot of praise and support for the Welsh NHS on Twitter this morning.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Wed 03 Feb, 2016 2:57 pm

The guy from MIND, in particular, is excellent.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 03 Feb, 2016 3:03 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:Are you watching the PAC session HindleA? Just tuned in. These witnesses (for want of a better word) are good, aren't they? Hoping the questions are going to be properly targeted and developed.

Off and on ,very impressed with Tom Pollard,particularly in response to Tory attempts to blame claimants for not providing evidence and scathing comments about the whole system and fundamental misunderstanding(being polite)that it is based on

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 03 Feb, 2016 3:03 pm

Ah,didn't see your post.Agreed.