Monday 29th February 2016

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 29 Feb, 2016 4:49 am

Morning

Welfare and Work Bill in Lords this afternoon.

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Mon 29 Feb, 2016 5:00 am

Morning all and thanks, A, for the update.

HARDtalk is particularly harrowing this morning. Sarah Montague speaks to Nadia Murad, a Yazidi woman who escaped Daesh with the help of a Moslim family and now campaigns for the release of the remaining captives.

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Mon 29 Feb, 2016 5:57 am

As I said earlier, thanks for the update on the Welfare and Work Bill, A. What with all the distractions of Europe, in the media anyway, Dave and co shall be avoiding too much scrutiny although I have noticed that Osborne has been gaining some of their attention. Anyway did anybody see IDS with his apparently good pal Marr yesterday? I should have known all the talk would be of Europe, about which he seems no less a fantasist.

As for his manner with Angela Eagle (I do have the right sister, don't I?), I had no idea he was such a touchy feely guy, the creep! Lay your hands on me, mate, and I'd show you how touchy feely I can be. I'd better bite my tongue, after all he's an ex-military guy and as little Willie Hague reminded me the other day, hard men such as they are not to be messed with!

Postscript: oh yes, I forgot that during yesterday's interview, IDS spoke of the fear or scaremongering of the Bremain camp. He really is blessed with self-awareness, isn't he? Remind me, who was it that said remaining in the EU increased our threat of terrorism?

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Mon 29 Feb, 2016 6:35 am

I've just noticed that IDS gained a starring role in Martin Rowson's cartoon yesterday (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... gn-cartoon), closed for comments, overnight at least. I guess he does evoke unsavoury responses, IDS that is.

Having had enough of bashing the lesser orders such as wheelchair scroungers his attentions seem directed elsewhere. Still he's no need for pig-botherer's confidential papers, as shown in the cartoon, given his heartfelt beliefs.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Mon 29 Feb, 2016 6:46 am

Morning all.

Reading through the article linked to last night, It's hard to understand how anyone who is struggling to buy a home could vote Conservative. Wtf did they expect the Tories to do if elected?

Turkeys voting for an 'aspirational' Christmas. The same goes for their parents. Perhaps they should reflect upon the time frame and relative cost of a first house was for them.

Moan over, good morning all!

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 29 Feb, 2016 7:50 am

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-35667939" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thousands of NHS nursing and doctor posts lie vacant

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Mon 29 Feb, 2016 8:07 am

It's quite something that Cameron boasts of the number of extra doctors and nurses in the NHS at the dispatch box since he took office, given their shortage. I don't know why he isn't attacked by the media for such ridiculous posturing. Should he practise his theatrics in front of the mirror, I suggest he gets it seeing to. It certainly doesn't reflect what I see.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 29 Feb, 2016 8:18 am

Dr Phil Hammond

The most likely effect of enforcing extended NHS services over 7 days will be to increase the already staggering number of unfilled shifts.

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Mon 29 Feb, 2016 8:24 am

HindleA wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-35667939

Thousands of NHS nursing and doctor posts lie vacant

Yes I saw that, A. The last time I was sent to A&E by the docs I was seen by a Spanish nurse as it happens. I gave him as warm a welcome as I could muster, although his foreign language skills far outstripped my own meagre effort.

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Mon 29 Feb, 2016 8:30 am

HindleA wrote:Dr Phil Hammond

The most likely effect of enforcing extended NHS services over 7 days will be to increase the already staggering number of unfilled shifts.

Quite. As for Cameron with his constantly repeated extra £10b at the dispatch box, none of which had been earmarked for their promised 7-day NHS, something that hasn't even been costed yet, just more empty boasts from our acting PM

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 29 Feb, 2016 8:33 am

Good morfternoon.

Former MP warns Portsmouth Labour faces ‘civil war’ unless crisis is resolved

Welcome to the reptile house.

http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/business/fo ... unless-cri

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 29 Feb, 2016 8:45 am

Brexit would negatively affect lives of millions, official UK report says

Cabinet Office says UK would spend years renegotiating trade and other agreements with EU and non-EU countries

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that this is true (and it might be) - remind me who called this potentially disastrous referendum and ponder what he could possibly have been thinking of.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Mon 29 Feb, 2016 9:17 am

Morning all.

I'm no supporter of Bourne and his crew but this is spot on.

They ought to be focusing on getting people to look at the Leave campaign to get them to answer exactly what a leave looks like. Simply saying "Ooh, it'll be a nightmare!" will be seen as scaremongering. Not helpful.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Mon 29 Feb, 2016 9:27 am

PorFavor wrote:
Brexit would negatively affect lives of millions, official UK report says

Cabinet Office says UK would spend years renegotiating trade and other agreements with EU and non-EU countries
Let's say, for the sake of argument, that this is true (and it might be) - remind me who called this potentially disastrous referendum and ponder what he could possibly have been thinking of.

It's getting ludicrous. I know things are insane when I find myself thinking Grayling is right (through gritted teeth) when he asks John Humphrys if he really thinks the French and others are going to take 10 years out to negotiate a trade deal with one of their biggest customers .... and let go of a lot of business meanwhile.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Mon 29 Feb, 2016 9:39 am

Everything crossed for the Rutherfords and others at the Supreme Court hearings this week. This is a fight that has to be won.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Mon 29 Feb, 2016 9:52 am

Isabel Hardman ‏@IsabelHardman 46m46 minutes ago
Labour MPs now think there is greater urgency to move against Corbyn - more in my column today’s Times http://thetim.es/1T3CfnY" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Getting beyond tedious. Instead of using this 4 month abeyance of Tory unity during the EU referendum - and during the build up to elections that Labour must do well in - to get some good team building and work done in their own party some Labour MPs seem hell bent on wasting energy, resources and goodwill of many members on continuing the jabbing at their own side. That's if this Hardman article headline (I haven't read the piece itself) is to be believed - I generally give her credit for trying to be accurate and non alarmist.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Mon 29 Feb, 2016 9:59 am

rebeccariots2 wrote:
Isabel Hardman ‏@IsabelHardman 46m46 minutes ago
Labour MPs now think there is greater urgency to move against Corbyn - more in my column today’s Times http://thetim.es/1T3CfnY" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Getting beyond tedious. Instead of using this 4 month abeyance of Tory unity during the EU referendum - and during the build up to elections that Labour must do well in - to get some good team building and work done in their own party some Labour MPs seem hell bent on wasting energy, resources and goodwill of many members on continuing the jabbing at their own side. That's if this Hardman article headline (I haven't read the piece itself) is to be believed - I generally give her credit for trying to be accurate and non alarmist.

Inference from that title is that it's all / a majority of Labour MPs that are going to act like that pre referendum.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Mon 29 Feb, 2016 10:05 am

StephenDolan wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:
Isabel Hardman ‏@IsabelHardman 46m46 minutes ago
Labour MPs now think there is greater urgency to move against Corbyn - more in my column today’s Times http://thetim.es/1T3CfnY" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Getting beyond tedious. Instead of using this 4 month abeyance of Tory unity during the EU referendum - and during the build up to elections that Labour must do well in - to get some good team building and work done in their own party some Labour MPs seem hell bent on wasting energy, resources and goodwill of many members on continuing the jabbing at their own side. That's if this Hardman article headline (I haven't read the piece itself) is to be believed - I generally give her credit for trying to be accurate and non alarmist.
Inference from that title is that it's all / a majority of Labour MPs that are going to act like that pre referendum.

I read the first part of her Spectator article on the same subject before it told me I had to subscribe. That says a growing number of backbenchers have realised it's urgent to act re getting rid of Corbyn (she cites poor performances at the despatch box in particular) and have sectioned off MPs into various groups according to how strongly they support Corbyn or otherwise and are approaching them systematically - except for those signed up Corbynistas.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Mon 29 Feb, 2016 10:10 am

If You Think Ukip Will Die After the Referendum, You Don't Understand Ukip
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/owen-be ... 43216.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Mon 29 Feb, 2016 10:14 am

Emily Ashton ‏@elashton 4m4 minutes ago
Nicola Sturgeon's in London to talk about the EU referendum. "I hope this is a thoroughly positive debate."

norman smith ‏@BBCNormanS 4m4 minutes ago
PM must not fight a "miserable, negative , fear based" campaign on #euref says @ScotGovFM

Andy Bell ‏@andybell5news 4m4 minutes ago
"Miserable negative fear- based campaign" in Scotland lost No camp a 20 point lead in 2014 says Sturgeon #EUreferendum

It's a bit late to give Dave this advice - he's already launched the full Crosby at us.

And - sad to say - his miserable negative fear-based campaign won him the general election - and used the SNP as a central part of it.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 29 Feb, 2016 10:17 am

PorFavor wrote:Good morfternoon.

Former MP warns Portsmouth Labour faces ‘civil war’ unless crisis is resolved
Welcome to the reptile house.

http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/business/fo ... unless-cri

The national party should have taken Portsmouth into "special measures" some time ago. Indeed, I am somewhat amazed they still haven't.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Mon 29 Feb, 2016 10:22 am

rebeccariots2 wrote:
Emily Ashton ‏@elashton 4m4 minutes ago
Nicola Sturgeon's in London to talk about the EU referendum. "I hope this is a thoroughly positive debate."

norman smith ‏@BBCNormanS 4m4 minutes ago
PM must not fight a "miserable, negative , fear based" campaign on #euref says @ScotGovFM

Andy Bell ‏@andybell5news 4m4 minutes ago
"Miserable negative fear- based campaign" in Scotland lost No camp a 20 point lead in 2014 says Sturgeon #EUreferendum
It's a bit late to give Dave this advice - he's already launched the full Crosby at us.

And - sad to say - his miserable negative fear-based campaign won him the general election - and used the SNP as a central part of it.

Sturgeon was more than happy to play along with the tail wagging the dog talk last May.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 29 Feb, 2016 10:30 am

As far as the MPs "plotting" against Corbyn are concerned, most of it still seems like hype and bluster to me.

But one is also reminded of Yeltsin's (in)famous statement that "you can build a throne of bayonets, but you cannot sit on it for long".

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Mon 29 Feb, 2016 10:31 am

Andy Bell ‏@andybell5news 4m4 minutes ago
"Miserable negative fear- based campaign" in Scotland lost No camp a 20 point lead in 2014 says Sturgeon #EUreferendum

Now that's something I can agree with her on.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 29 Feb, 2016 11:06 am

https://www.supremecourt.uk/live/court-01.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 29 Feb, 2016 11:12 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:As far as the MPs "plotting" against Corbyn are concerned, most of it still seems like hype and bluster to me.

I think the same.

Good-morning, everyone.

Eric_WLothian · Post by **Eric_WLothian** » Mon 29 Feb, 2016 11:31 am

StephenDolan wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:
Emily Ashton ‏@elashton 4m4 minutes ago
Nicola Sturgeon's in London to talk about the EU referendum. "I hope this is a thoroughly positive debate."

norman smith ‏@BBCNormanS 4m4 minutes ago
PM must not fight a "miserable, negative , fear based" campaign on #euref says @ScotGovFM

Andy Bell ‏@andybell5news 4m4 minutes ago
"Miserable negative fear- based campaign" in Scotland lost No camp a 20 point lead in 2014 says Sturgeon #EUreferendum
It's a bit late to give Dave this advice - he's already launched the full Crosby at us.

And - sad to say - his miserable negative fear-based campaign won him the general election - and used the SNP as a central part of it.
Sturgeon was more than happy to play along with the tail wagging the dog talk last May.

Funny how our esteemed </sarcasm> FM sees her role in the UK:

Nicola Sturgeon has warned the Prime Minister to "think twice" about getting involved in the Scottish part of the EU referendum campaign, with the First Minister suggesting David Cameron could do more harm than good.
https://www.holyrood.com/articles/news/ ... referendum

She won't campaign alongside Mr Cameron, she told me, but she will make her case in England as well as Scotland.
http://www.itv.com/news/2016-02-16/eu-p ... eferendum/

Today she's in London pushing her views on the UK referendum. If she (the highest paid politician in the UK) gave as much attention to the devolved matters she is responsible for, as she does to grandstanding around the world, Scotland might not be in the mess it is. (or maybe not...)

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 29 Feb, 2016 12:46 pm

Declan Gaffney
Ministers like to say ESA WRAG shouldn't be long-term benefit. That's not what their assessment process says. https://t.co/w8a8GfFpns" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.parliament.uk/business/publi ... 2-19/27486" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://lartsocial.org/24hourcarpark" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This also explains why people who think it shows expertise to say 'We need to tackle the off-flow rate' will be given short shrift.
Because cuts to ESA WRAG payments justified on grounds WRAG isn't fulfilling expectations wrt off-flows. Whose expectations? Based on what?
Bearing in mind reason for higher benefits for sickness/disability is longer expected durations on benefit. Have those expectations changed?
My expectation is this: ESA cuts will fall on some people who'll recover quicky, but mostly people predicted by WCA to have long-term claims

Post by **refitman** » Mon 29 Feb, 2016 12:53 pm

Cif has gone a bit "Through the looking glass" over the EU vote. I'm starting to agree with the likes of ToryFTW and stratagem

I think I may have to have a lie down.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 29 Feb, 2016 12:57 pm

Do elaborate

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 29 Feb, 2016 12:59 pm

Afternoon.

In reply to RR's post about Ceredigion being the most Europhile place in the UK...am pleasantly surprised.

We rely a lot on EU funding for projects - believe they helped with a big local flood prevention scheme at Aberaeron, important environmental projects like Cors Caron bog land etc.
Companies like Dunbia, which has a small presence here [a larger one in Carmarthenshire] are pro-EU and are warning that Brexit could be disaster for agri/food business.

Also Welsh farmers, the predominant industry here, likely feel they would do worse under Brexit.
Then there's the still faithful Lib Dem support, less likely to be europhobes.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Mon 29 Feb, 2016 12:59 pm

refitman wrote:Cif has gone a bit "Through the looking glass" over the EU vote. I'm starting to agree with the likes of ToryFTW and stratagem I think I may have to have a lie down.

There's a number of 'Labour' posters talking up Priti Patel as future PM. She's all for out, so are they. The referendum is everything apparently.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 29 Feb, 2016 1:02 pm

Eric_WLothian wrote:
StephenDolan wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote: It's a bit late to give Dave this advice - he's already launched the full Crosby at us.

And - sad to say - his miserable negative fear-based campaign won him the general election - and used the SNP as a central part of it.
Sturgeon was more than happy to play along with the tail wagging the dog talk last May.
Funny how our esteemed </sarcasm> FM sees her role in the UK:

Nicola Sturgeon has warned the Prime Minister to "think twice" about getting involved in the Scottish part of the EU referendum campaign, with the First Minister suggesting David Cameron could do more harm than good.
https://www.holyrood.com/articles/news/ ... referendum

She won't campaign alongside Mr Cameron, she told me, but she will make her case in England as well as Scotland.
http://www.itv.com/news/2016-02-16/eu-p ... eferendum/
Today she's in London pushing her views on the UK referendum. If she (the highest paid politician in the UK) gave as much attention to the devolved matters she is responsible for, as she does to grandstanding around the world, Scotland might not be in the mess it is. (or maybe not...)

How dare she come to London to lecture us!

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 29 Feb, 2016 1:03 pm

StephenDolan wrote:
refitman wrote:Cif has gone a bit "Through the looking glass" over the EU vote. I'm starting to agree with the likes of ToryFTW and stratagem I think I may have to have a lie down.
There's a number of 'Labour' posters talking up Priti Patel as future PM. She's all for out, so are they. The referendum is everything apparently.

"Britain Unchained" (and all that that entails)?

Post by **refitman** » Mon 29 Feb, 2016 1:03 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Do elaborate

They are making the point that Gove/Grayling/IDS are talking cobblers and we would (in their opinion) be better of in.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 29 Feb, 2016 1:14 pm

Eric_WLothian wrote:
StephenDolan wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote: It's a bit late to give Dave this advice - he's already launched the full Crosby at us.

And - sad to say - his miserable negative fear-based campaign won him the general election - and used the SNP as a central part of it.
Sturgeon was more than happy to play along with the tail wagging the dog talk last May.
Funny how our esteemed </sarcasm> FM sees her role in the UK:

Nicola Sturgeon has warned the Prime Minister to "think twice" about getting involved in the Scottish part of the EU referendum campaign, with the First Minister suggesting David Cameron could do more harm than good.
https://www.holyrood.com/articles/news/ ... referendum

She won't campaign alongside Mr Cameron, she told me, but she will make her case in England as well as Scotland.
http://www.itv.com/news/2016-02-16/eu-p ... eferendum/
Today she's in London pushing her views on the UK referendum. If she (the highest paid politician in the UK) gave as much attention to the devolved matters she is responsible for, as she does to grandstanding around the world, Scotland might not be in the mess it is. (or maybe not...)

How dare she come to London to lecture us!

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 29 Feb, 2016 1:40 pm

StephenDolan wrote:
refitman wrote:Cif has gone a bit "Through the looking glass" over the EU vote. I'm starting to agree with the likes of ToryFTW and stratagem I think I may have to have a lie down.
There's a number of 'Labour' posters talking up Priti Patel as future PM. She's all for out, so are they. The referendum is everything apparently.

And if you believe they are *really* Labour, I might be able to interest you in a bridge I have for sale?

(you'd think they might at least be backing somebody vaguely credible - sheesh)

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 29 Feb, 2016 1:50 pm

yahyah wrote:Afternoon.

In reply to RR's post about Ceredigion being the most Europhile place in the UK...am pleasantly surprised.

We rely a lot on EU funding for projects - believe they helped with a big local flood prevention scheme at Aberaeron, important environmental projects like Cors Caron bog land etc.
Companies like Dunbia, which has a small presence here [a larger one in Carmarthenshire] are pro-EU and are warning that Brexit could be disaster for agri/food business.

Also Welsh farmers, the predominant industry here, likely feel they would do worse under Brexit.
Then there's the still faithful Lib Dem support, less likely to be europhobes.

And Bracknell is the third most Eurosceptic...

Eric_WLothian · Post by **Eric_WLothian** » Mon 29 Feb, 2016 2:00 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
Eric_WLothian wrote: Funny how our esteemed </sarcasm> FM sees her role in the UK:

Nicola Sturgeon has warned the Prime Minister to "think twice" about getting involved in the Scottish part of the EU referendum campaign, with the First Minister suggesting David Cameron could do more harm than good.
https://www.holyrood.com/articles/news/ ... referendum

She won't campaign alongside Mr Cameron, she told me, but she will make her case in England as well as Scotland.
http://www.itv.com/news/2016-02-16/eu-p ... eferendum/
Today she's in London pushing her views on the UK referendum. If she (the highest paid politician in the UK) gave as much attention to the devolved matters she is responsible for, as she does to grandstanding around the world, Scotland might not be in the mess it is. (or maybe not...)
How dare she come to London to lecture us!

As she is the leader of a Scottish political party which polled around 50% of the Scottish vote in the GE, she is, of course perfectly entitled to speak in (but not for) Scotland.
As leader of a party which represents around 2.5% of UK voters (UKIP represent more), she is not in a position to tell the UK prime minister where he can and can't express his opinion within the UK.

I can see this whole referendum degenerating into a vote on a whole lot of issues which are, or should be, nothing to do with the future of the UK in or out of the EU.

So far, the issues clouding the question seem to be BJ's ambition to be PM; the possibility of a second independence referendum and possibly unseating Corbyn. In each case there seem to be people willing to put these (relatively trivial) issues before the long term future of the UK.

The comparison between this referendum and the indyref is, imo, not as relevant as the comparison with the electoral reform referendum, which appeared to be influenced by a short-term 'get Clegg' agenda.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 29 Feb, 2016 2:00 pm

Re.ESA attempted "delay" amendment.

Lord Low's amendment had to be in that form as Lords cannot block it due to usage of Financial Privilege

http://services.parliament.uk/bills/201 ... ments.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 29 Feb, 2016 2:22 pm

Both quotes (below) are from Politics Live (Guardian) -

12m ago 14:05

Q: You must have reservations about the EU. What are they?

Cameron says one is that Britain pays a membership fee. He thinks it is worth it, but it is frustrating.

6m ago 14:12

Q: Do you worry that leaving the EU would trigger a second independence referendum in Scotland?

Cameron says Scotland has had a referendum.

But, if you care about keeping the UK together, that would be another reason for voting for Britain to remain in the EU.

He's not convincing me with his non-answers - and I tend towards the "In" position.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 29 Feb, 2016 2:40 pm

PorFavor wrote:Both quotes (below) are from Politics Live (Guardian) -
12m ago 14:05

Q: You must have reservations about the EU. What are they?

Cameron says one is that Britain pays a membership fee. He thinks it is worth it, but it is frustrating.
6m ago 14:12

Q: Do you worry that leaving the EU would trigger a second independence referendum in Scotland?

Cameron says Scotland has had a referendum.

But, if you care about keeping the UK together, that would be another reason for voting for Britain to remain in the EU.
He's not convincing me with his non-answers - and I tend towards the "In" position.

I agree with you, for what my opinion is worth.
I don't trust a word out of Dave Cameron's mouth, ever.
No, I thought of a time I think Dave probably told the truth...
"Ouch! Ouch! Ouch!"
...after getting stung by jellyfish.

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Mon 29 Feb, 2016 2:45 pm

HindleA wrote:Re.ESA attempted "delay" amendment.

Lord Low's amendment had to be in that form as Lords cannot block it due to usage of Financial Privilege

http://services.parliament.uk/bills/201 ... ments.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There are loads of amendment papers there, A. Is there one in particular that you're referring to? Or should I say to which you refer? I've been a troubled individual since the Lord Chancellor pointed out beginning sentences with 'however'.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 29 Feb, 2016 2:48 pm

Have been reading a book about Forensic Psychology by David Canter. It was published in 1994, so will have moved on since then, but I read this extract and although it refers to Torturers, if you substitute MPs, or Bankers, or Tycoons it still makes sense.

>>>The training of Torturers provides a clear example of this process. Most people who carry out torture as part of their designated duties do not start as sadistic individuals. Indeed, such people may be excluded from recruitment because of the difficultly of controlling them. Recruits are encouraged along the long path to inflict pain and degradation on others in small steps. They are persuaded to regard their victims as sub-human by the accounts they are given and actions they witness. They are shown that they can gain esteem from their superiors by preying on those in their power. The torturers own narrative takes shape in this climate in a way that allows him to feel that his personal drama will have a successful conclusion. A new subset of ways of dealing with other people becomes the dominant mode of actions for the recruit as he takes on the role of torturer.<<<

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Mon 29 Feb, 2016 2:54 pm

PorFavor wrote:... He's not convincing me with his non-answers - and I tend towards the "In" position.

His answers only ever convince me of one thing, PorFavor, and it is never favourable.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 29 Feb, 2016 2:54 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
PorFavor wrote:
Brexit would negatively affect lives of millions, official UK report says

Cabinet Office says UK would spend years renegotiating trade and other agreements with EU and non-EU countries
Let's say, for the sake of argument, that this is true (and it might be) - remind me who called this potentially disastrous referendum and ponder what he could possibly have been thinking of.
It's getting ludicrous. I know things are insane when I find myself thinking Grayling is right (through gritted teeth) when he asks John Humphrys if he really thinks the French and others are going to take 10 years out to negotiate a trade deal with one of their biggest customers .... and let go of a lot of business meanwhile.

It's not insane at all.

The EU holds the cards and can take its time. Business won't stop but it'll worry while there's uncertainty about the longer term. If IDS thinks Britain is dictating terms then it'll take a long time.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 29 Feb, 2016 2:57 pm

Any chance of Sturgeon admitting the negative naysayers who ran down Scotland were correct in the referendum?

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 29 Feb, 2016 3:12 pm

FFS one of IDS arguments was based on "there may be properties which had different bedroom dimensions that would allow the Carmichaels to not to need a separate bedroom "-that is the level of twatterical misanthropy.

martinson · Post by **martinson** » Mon 29 Feb, 2016 3:14 pm

Good afternoon all.

I was watching the League Cup Final yesterday and got to wondering whether yahyah was maybe a closet Touré?

As they say, I'll get me coat....

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 29 Feb, 2016 3:16 pm

UD-top one - 26/2/16 ie.what they are discussing today.