Wednesday 6th April 2016

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 06 Apr, 2016 6:07 am

Morning all.
Big big win for Sanders, exceeding the polling. Notable that it was a primary, so commentators unable to use the 'only a caucus' excuse.

NY is where it's at. Personally, I'd be very surprised if he gets close to 50/50 split there. Closer he gets, the more pressure can be applied to the Clinton team to soften policies.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 06 Apr, 2016 7:15 am

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new- ... pensioners" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

New State Pension for millions of new pensioners

What a stupid headline,on a number of levels.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 06 Apr, 2016 7:39 am

Solidarity with the junior doctors.

http://www.theguardian.com/society/live ... ve-updates" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 06 Apr, 2016 7:41 am

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/cam ... 69941.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

cameron-just-refused-to-give-a-straight-answer-about-whether-hed-benefited-from-tax-avoidance-big

Nothing new in this but a good, uncompromising piece.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 06 Apr, 2016 7:55 am

http://linkis.com/www.theguardian.com/sG5k2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Brexit is necessary to protect NHS from TTIP, says David Owen

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 06 Apr, 2016 7:57 am

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-35970160" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Devon care home boss 'unaware of punishment rooms'

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Wed 06 Apr, 2016 8:05 am

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/cam ... 69941.html

cameron-just-refused-to-give-a-straight-answer-about-whether-hed-benefited-from-tax-avoidance-big

Nothing new in this but a good, uncompromising piece.

It's very good, lovely Paul - and I was particularly taken with the point that he took only 2 questions (having implied he'd take more) leaving the hacks deeply disgruntled because they couldn't quiz him further on his finances.
OGRPPFGTCC does these stage-managed events all the time - and despite his control over what the media can ask, many news reporters (including the G) moan all the time about Corbyn and McDonnell "refusing" to talk to the press.
In fact, they do talk to the press - but on their terms. They're not buying in to the usual circus, and Corbyn in particular appears to be more concerned with the voters who pay his salary rather than the hacks who'd be more likely than not to misreport what he says.

I follow a chap called Jolyon Maugham (QC), and he has written a good piece here -
waitingfortax.com/2016/04/05/panama-where-next/#comments

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 06 Apr, 2016 8:20 am

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Paul Mason: the leftwing case for nuclear weapons – video

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Wed 06 Apr, 2016 8:33 am

Stephen Pollard ‏@stephenpollard 2m2 minutes ago
Have to say Stephen Kinnock sounded so much more ministerial than any interview I've heard this week with Javid.

Post by **refitman** » Wed 06 Apr, 2016 8:42 am

ephemerid wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/cam ... 69941.html

cameron-just-refused-to-give-a-straight-answer-about-whether-hed-benefited-from-tax-avoidance-big

Nothing new in this but a good, uncompromising piece.

It's very good, lovely Paul - and I was particularly taken with the point that he took only 2 questions (having implied he'd take more) leaving the hacks deeply disgruntled because they couldn't quiz him further on his finances.
OGRPPFGTCC does these stage-managed events all the time - and despite his control over what the media can ask, many news reporters (including the G) moan all the time about Corbyn and McDonnell "refusing" to talk to the press.
In fact, they do talk to the press - but on their terms. They're not buying in to the usual circus, and Corbyn in particular appears to be more concerned with the voters who pay his salary rather than the hacks who'd be more likely than not to misreport what he says.

I follow a chap called Jolyon Maugham (QC), and he has written a good piece here -
waitingfortax.com/2016/04/05/panama-where-next/#comments

I have to say, I didn't see Tom Newton Dunn tweeting about it, like he did with Corbyn earlier in the day. In fact, he seems to have gone to ground since then.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 06 Apr, 2016 9:05 am

Wes Streeting making the right points regarding Panama Cameron. Good to hear.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 06 Apr, 2016 9:11 am

Guardian are getting a bit twitchy - pre-moderating comments on the AS politics blog...and not the first time clearly.

Post by **refitman** » Wed 06 Apr, 2016 9:12 am

RogerOThornhill wrote:Guardian are getting a bit twitchy - pre-moderating comments on the AS politics blog...and not the first time clearly.

It was pre-mod yesterday as well. Only Andrew's blog though, the doctors one is normal.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 06 Apr, 2016 9:18 am

StephenDolan wrote:Wes Streeting making the right points regarding Panama Cameron. Good to hear.

Lots of whataboutery around I see - "what about ISAs - anyone holding those is avoiding tax!!".

Er...no, they're government-promoted savings schemes. As are pension schemes. Not the same thing at all.

I see lots of the "leftards whined like girls over Ed's dad" too - yes, setting up accounts on tax havens to avoid tax is exactly the same as joining up in WWII and serving three years in the RN.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 06 Apr, 2016 9:29 am

Yep. Spot on. Thought this a couple of weeks ago.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 06 Apr, 2016 9:48 am

No 10 says Cameron's family will not benefit from any offshore funds in future

Number 10 has issued a new statement about the prime ministers’ family finances and his late father’s offshore fund. A Downing Street spokesman said:

There are no offshore funds/trusts which the prime minister, Mrs Cameron or their children will benefit from in future. (Politics Live, Guardian)

Still rather peculiarly worded, I feel. (Or have they been disinherited overnight?)

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Wed 06 Apr, 2016 10:19 am

After posting yesterday about how OGRPPFGTCC manages his image, I've been doing a bit of digging around.

Along with the money, the contacts have helped him enormously - he has, effectively, had his career bought for him; and in the process his image and his lifestyle have been micro-managed to the Nth degree and so has that of his immediate family.

There are no Wikipedia entries for his parents or his sisters beyond mentions in pieces about the ancestral home or family tree; his brothers' entry is a very basic one simply outlining his education and professional qualifications and not much else. That's unusual for such a high-profile QC.
Obviously, Cameron himself has massive amounts of information about himself in the public domain - but his family hasn't.
I appreciate that the reason for this could simply be that he wants to protect them, or that they themselves have no wish to be exposed to view.
But when you consider how carefully Cameron has presented himself to the public, I tend to think he is managing what we are allowed to see.

Cameron stood for Parliament in 1997 for Stafford - a seat revised in boundary changes, which was considered "safe" for the Tories. He stood on a Eurosceptic platform, claimed that Labour would increase the price of beer, and lost to Labour. He failed to be selected for another 2 seats, and eventually got Witney in 2000 when Shaun Woodward crossed the floor, and was elected in 2001.
From then on, he launched his "compassionate conservative" thing - he made announcements on downgrading Class A drugs, supported a ban on foxhunting, abstained on same-sex couples being allowed to adopt (to piss off IDS) and generally finagled his way to the upper echelons of his party, branding himself a moderniser.

Once elected as leader, the cleaning-up began. In 2005, he resigned his non-executive directorship of Urbium (TigerTiger nightclubs); in 2006, he made the "hug a hoodie" speech and was photographed with huskies; and many older Tories called him superficial, unreliable, and populist.
He resigned his lifetime membership of Whites' (his brother is still a member as was his father until his death); he stopped going to Scotland to stalk and shoot deer; he stopped riding out with the Heythrop Hunt; and he started becoming a patron of dozens of charities.

He has tidied up his interests with clinical care - I do not believe that he has never in the past nor will ever in the future benefit from his fathers' offshore funds/activities. His fathers' will apparently left an estate worth £2.74 Million, of which Cameron inherited £300,000.
That will applied only to assets held in England and Wales. Ian Cameron's net worth was estimated in 2009, a year before he died, at £10M-plus.
A house worth £2.5M in Berkshire became the sole property of Camerons' brother in 2006; his sisters got a house in London worth £1M; so it looks as if Cameron Pere was divesting himself of assets either to avoid IHT or to make himself look less wealthy for his son's political career.

Since becoming PM, Cameron has rented out his Notting Hill house - it has been estimated that he has benefited from this by £500,000.
It may well be true that he has no shares, no assets other than his homes and savings. Well, now, at least.
But we do know that his father's company was set up with deliberate intent to attract high net worth investors who would not be required to pay UK tax, and we know that the company was/is a client of Mossack Fonseca.

Downing Street has today, for the fourth time, issued a statement denying our PM's involvement in any offshore dealings and insisting that he will not benefit in the future from any such dealings.
Given how carefully this preening popinjay has manufactured his image and manipulated his past, "I do not accept that".

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 06 Apr, 2016 10:19 am

What about in the past?

What about onshore?

Rip the plaster off Cameron, this slow peeling doesn’t spare the pain.

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Wed 06 Apr, 2016 10:52 am

From October 2015:

http://deveer.org.uk/dvr/index.php/Came ... _Avoidance

The remaining bulk of the estate, including Ian Cameron's offshore shares in Smith & Williamson Blairmore Global Equity, Close International Equity Growth Fund Ltd. and others, was then wrapped up into an 80-year Trust Fund: Trust Funds are routinely used by the
Grantor (Ian Cameron) as tool to avoid the payment of inheritance tax by the Beneficiary (Mary, Alexander, Tania, David & Clare) of an estate upon the death of the asset holder. Trusts invariably provide dividends, interest or rent, i.e. an income, to its beneficiaries.
Thus, the Cameron clan are sitting on an accumulated fortune of over GB £32 million almost completely free of any form of meaningful form of taxation, except for peppercorn payments to the UK tax authorities for income taken from the Cameron Trust.

If this was correct, then where has it gone?

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 06 Apr, 2016 10:55 am

According to the BBC’s Norman Smith, [George] Osborne was not particularly forthcoming when asked if he was the beneficiary of an offshore fund. He replied by saying that all his financial arrangements were declared in the register of members’ interests. When asked again about offshore funds he terminated the interview. (Politic Live, Guardian)

Edited to add

Bloody impertinence on the part of the questioner, if you ask me . . .

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 06 Apr, 2016 10:57 am

Good morfternoon (rather belated, I'm afraid).

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 06 Apr, 2016 11:02 am

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2016 ... nefit-cuts" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Paralympics hopeful Carly Tait: ‘My lifeline is being taken away

I’m representing a country called ‘Great’. It’s not that great [for disabled people], is it? People need to know this is happening.”

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 06 Apr, 2016 11:03 am

PorFavor wrote:
According to the BBC’s Norman Smith, [George] Osborne was not particularly forthcoming when asked if he was the beneficiary of an offshore fund. He replied by saying that all his financial arrangements were declared in the register of members’ interests. When asked again about offshore funds he terminated the interview. (Politic Live, Guardian)

Edited to add

Bloody impertinence on the part of the questioner, if you ask me . . .

If you are intending to be a future beneficiary for say a family overseas fund I'm assuming that there's no need to provide an entry in the list of members interests.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Wed 06 Apr, 2016 11:13 am

tinybgoat wrote:From October 2015:

http://deveer.org.uk/dvr/index.php/Came ... _Avoidance

The remaining bulk of the estate, including Ian Cameron's offshore shares in Smith & Williamson Blairmore Global Equity, Close International Equity Growth Fund Ltd. and others, was then wrapped up into an 80-year Trust Fund: Trust Funds are routinely used by the
Grantor (Ian Cameron) as tool to avoid the payment of inheritance tax by the Beneficiary (Mary, Alexander, Tania, David & Clare) of an estate upon the death of the asset holder. Trusts invariably provide dividends, interest or rent, i.e. an income, to its beneficiaries.
Thus, the Cameron clan are sitting on an accumulated fortune of over GB £32 million almost completely free of any form of meaningful form of taxation, except for peppercorn payments to the UK tax authorities for income taken from the Cameron Trust.
If this was correct, then where has it gone?

Well......

In 2009, Ian Cameron (and Blairmore/Close?) moved operations from the Channel Islands and elsewhere to Ireland, where a small amount of tax is paid, apparently. Just before Dave faced a GE. Odd, that.

I suspect that there are funds hiding in Switzerland or somewhere similar. Just because - or indeed if - Dave's name isn't on the paperwork any more doesn't mean he won't benefit from it in time, or has done so in the past.

Faisal Islam asked him outright if he has ever or will ever benefit from offshore holdings and Dave did not answer the question.
Now we have Number 10 reluctantly sending out little bits and bobs as time goes on and the questions get harder......

I am a sort of normal person. If someone asks me a question and there is a simple yes/no answer, that's what I say. Yes or no.
If Cameron was absolutely sure that he has not and will not benefit from offshore holdings, then he could just say "No".
He hasn't.
He has made statements himself, and has his lackeys doing likewise, which obfuscate and complicate and give us all manner of information on what he says he hasn't got and plenty of detail on what he has got - but no answer to the original question.
As per usual.

There remain millions of bits of information to go through in these "Panama Papers". The 1% are running scared.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 06 Apr, 2016 11:15 am

HindleA wrote:http://linkis.com/www.theguardian.com/sG5k2

Brexit is necessary to protect NHS from TTIP, says David Owen

Complete myth. Both specifically re the NHS, and indeed the more general idea that Brexit would somehow "save" us from TTIP.

Sorry to see him peddling such disinformation.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Wed 06 Apr, 2016 11:15 am

tinybgoat wrote:From October 2015:

http://deveer.org.uk/dvr/index.php/Came ... _Avoidance

The remaining bulk of the estate, including Ian Cameron's offshore shares in Smith & Williamson Blairmore Global Equity, Close International Equity Growth Fund Ltd. and others, was then wrapped up into an 80-year Trust Fund: Trust Funds are routinely used by the
Grantor (Ian Cameron) as tool to avoid the payment of inheritance tax by the Beneficiary (Mary, Alexander, Tania, David & Clare) of an estate upon the death of the asset holder. Trusts invariably provide dividends, interest or rent, i.e. an income, to its beneficiaries.
Thus, the Cameron clan are sitting on an accumulated fortune of over GB £32 million almost completely free of any form of meaningful form of taxation, except for peppercorn payments to the UK tax authorities for income taken from the Cameron Trust.
If this was correct, then where has it gone?

The beneficiaries of the trust have been changed to exclude Cam, Sam and the children, I'd guess.
Either it can be changed again, or Cam's accepted that it's in conflict with holding public office and is happy to throw his kids on the mercy of the Astors.

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Wed 06 Apr, 2016 11:28 am

StephenDolan wrote:What about in the past?

What about onshore?

Rip the plaster off Cameron, this slow peeling doesn’t spare the pain.

I don't pretend to understand any of this,
but think the fund in Ireland,
'Smith & Williamson Blairmore Global Equity', is/was a 'UCITS'
which is an onshore EU fund.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 06 Apr, 2016 11:31 am

rebeccariots2 wrote:
Stephen Pollard ‏@stephenpollard 2m2 minutes ago
Have to say Stephen Kinnock sounded so much more ministerial than any interview I've heard this week with Javid.

Strange how much better Labour "moderates" sound when they are actually opposing the government, rather than whining endlessly to Tory press hacks about their leader?

Maybe it will catch on with some at least

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 06 Apr, 2016 12:30 pm

The Icelandic PM is now saying that he hasn't resigned. He's obviously taken a leaf out of the Nigel Farage playbook. (BBC News)

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 06 Apr, 2016 12:37 pm

Channel 4.Dispatches Monday 11th at 8pm.Ade Adepitan on PIP.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 06 Apr, 2016 12:47 pm

PorFavor wrote:The Icelandic PM is now saying that he hasn't resigned. He's obviously taken a leaf out of the Nigel Farage playbook. (BBC News)

I'm sure that will work out just fine for him

sputnikkers · Post by **sputnikkers** » Wed 06 Apr, 2016 12:48 pm

Genuinely impressed with this Green Party Political Broadcast. Funny, engaging and 'hard'-hitting to score points in a cunningly 'softly'-delivered package. Well worth watching:

[youtube]s2dNEQiHUUo[/youtube]

Can't really fault it (even when disagreeing temperamentally) until the lady starts to speak about Green's 'policies' (or rather Philosophy?)!

[It's a shame some of this 'presentational' nous (rather than influence on policies) hasn't transferred to Labour via the recent Green entryism into the Membership!]

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 06 Apr, 2016 12:49 pm

Just so's you know -

Earlier I reported on the BBC’s Norman Smith saying George Osborne terminated an interview when asked about offshore funds. (See 10.47am.) The word “terminated” was mine; I think Smith just said Osborne walked off camera.

I’ve been told this account isn’t right. A source who was there says that Osborne intended to just answer two questions, that he ended up answering six, that the ones about offshore funds came last and that the interview came to a natural end. (Politics Live, Guardian)

GetYou · Post by **GetYou** » Wed 06 Apr, 2016 1:21 pm

Thanks PorFavor.

Six. That means he's three times as transparent as Cameron then, which, according to my tracing paper scale of transparency guide, means "absolutelynothingwhatsoever" if I've read it correctly.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Wed 06 Apr, 2016 1:24 pm

BBC Politics ‏@BBCPolitics 6m6 minutes ago
Any EU payouts to help repair Christmas flood damage are likely to be months because of delays in the bid process. http://bbc.in/23b99ce" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 06 Apr, 2016 1:27 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
BBC Politics ‏@BBCPolitics 6m6 minutes ago
Any EU payouts to help repair Christmas flood damage are likely to be months because of delays in the bid process. http://bbc.in/23b99ce" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Incompetent, negligent and un-caring on the part of the government. And they took so long to get round to doing it, too.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 06 Apr, 2016 1:27 pm

Afternoon.

Have brought along some birthday cake as it is my 60th today.

Confined to barracks unfortunately, Mr YahYah has a temperature and hacking cough - he picked it up when he took me to the doctor last week.
They ought to seat the walking wounded away from the infectious patients in the waiting room.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 06 Apr, 2016 1:31 pm

Press victims 'betrayed' by law delay
By David Sillito

Victims of press intrusion have accused the government of breaking its promise over regulation.

The group, which includes Kate and Gerry McCann, says a delay in bringing into law a key part of the Royal Charter agreement is a "betrayal".

The change was one of the commitments made after the Leveson Inquiry into press standards and was passed by MPs.

But three years on, it still needs to be signed off by the culture secretary, who says it is "under consideration". (BBC News website)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-35971933

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Wed 06 Apr, 2016 1:32 pm

Happy Birthday yahyah. Hope you get a late birthday special day or similar when Mr YahYah is back at full strength. I am enjoying your cake - and it's positively virtually delicious.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 06 Apr, 2016 1:32 pm

@yahyah

Happy birthday!

frightful_oik · Post by **frightful_oik** » Wed 06 Apr, 2016 1:39 pm

Can't do twatter but JohnClarke1960 posted this:

Contrary to whatDave IMPLIED: The luxury leather goods company that employs Samantha Cameron is based in a tax haven http://www.independent.co.uk/news/busin ... 17572.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Wed 06 Apr, 2016 1:40 pm

It's Mr Riots birthday today too. He's spending it on a day trip to Ireland to collect a young pointer dog - Sammy - who was found a few months ago in a graveyard grieving for his former owner and refusing to leave. The lady who found him eventually coaxed him out and fostered him until the Pointer Rescue Society found him a home in the UK. Depending on how Sammy gets on with our dogs he will be staying with us for a couple of weeks until his new owner is able to take him.

Mr Riots birthday request for a homemade pizza to his specific requirements has been deferred to the weekend.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 06 Apr, 2016 1:40 pm

frightful_oik wrote:Can't do twatter but JohnClarke1960 posted this:

Contrary to whatDave IMPLIED: The luxury leather goods company that employs Samantha Cameron is based in a tax haven http://www.independent.co.uk/news/busin ... 17572.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

How's the leg?

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 06 Apr, 2016 1:43 pm

Happy birthdays to yahyah and RR2's husband.I started counting down after 50.

Edited added p.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 06 Apr, 2016 1:49 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
PorFavor wrote:The Icelandic PM is now saying that he hasn't resigned. He's obviously taken a leaf out of the Nigel Farage playbook. (BBC News)
I'm sure that will work out just fine for him

I respected him more by resigning immediately realising the jig was up

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 06 Apr, 2016 1:49 pm

Now No 10 says Cameron & family will not make any future gains from offshore tax havens.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Wed 06 Apr, 2016 1:50 pm

Tom Glover Retweeted
TES ‏@tes 22m22 minutes ago
WATCH what happened when Ofsted boss Sir Michael Wilshaw walked into a pub full of angry teachers http://ow.ly/10lPW3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Roger should really enjoy this. Others will too. Good to see a full and frank discussion.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 06 Apr, 2016 1:50 pm

Apologies for my poor manners - good-afternoon, everyone

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Wed 06 Apr, 2016 1:53 pm

Happy birthday yahyah and mr riots.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 06 Apr, 2016 1:53 pm

HindleA wrote:Hapy birthdays to yahyah and RR2's husband.I started counting down after 50.

Happy birthday, yahyah!
Mr Riots, happy birthday to you!

How about a nice rum raisin cheese cake?