Thursday 14th April 2016

Post by **refitman** » Thu 14 Apr, 2016 7:09 am

Morning all.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Thu 14 Apr, 2016 7:33 am

Does anyone think we will see the Chilcot Report before the referendum?

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Thu 14 Apr, 2016 8:10 am

Gaby Hinsliff ‏@gabyhinsliff 6m6 minutes ago
'People think Jeremy doesn't really mean what he's saying about EUref. What do we do?' 'Duck a r4Today interview on it. That'll show em'

It's not like Cameron or his ministers ever decline to be interviewed eh. It has to be so much worse if it's Corbyn doing it.

Corbyn is probably saving what he wants to say for his speech today - and then let the press ask questions. Novel thought.

Hilary Benn did a good job on Radio 4 anyway.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Thu 14 Apr, 2016 8:10 am

ephemerid wrote:Does anyone think we will see the Chilcot Report before the referendum?

No.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Thu 14 Apr, 2016 8:20 am

No. 10 Press Office ‏@Number10press 20h20 hours ago
PM: No one should be living in fear of violence against women and girls, that’s why we’re investing £80 million extra funding to 2020. #PMQs

And spending £100,000 on appealing the court ruling against you insisting a woman pays bedroom tax on her specially installed panic room.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Thu 14 Apr, 2016 8:30 am

rebeccariots2 wrote:
ephemerid wrote:Does anyone think we will see the Chilcot Report before the referendum?
No.

There was me thinking you'd put your answer on a postcard dated 9/11/2020.......

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Thu 14 Apr, 2016 8:34 am

rebeccariots2 wrote:
No. 10 Press Office ‏@Number10press 20h20 hours ago
PM: No one should be living in fear of violence against women and girls, that’s why we’re investing £80 million extra funding to 2020. #PMQs
And spending £100,000 on appealing the court ruling against you insisting a woman pays bedroom tax on her specially installed panic room.

Exactly, RR.

The average cost of the Under Occupation Penalty is £12 a week, £624 PA.

It would take 160 years of bedroom tax to pay off the DWP legal fees so far. For one case

The same applies to the Rutherford case.

No sign of the oleaginous crustacean putting a stop to this nonsense, is there?

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 14 Apr, 2016 9:04 am

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/a ... nist-party" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Golf is no longer a crime, decrees China's Communist party

mbc1955 · Post by **mbc1955** » Thu 14 Apr, 2016 9:20 am

ephemerid wrote:Does anyone think we will see the Chilcot Report before the referendum?

Does anyone think we will see the Chilcot Report before the Millennium?

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 14 Apr, 2016 9:26 am

Which one?

danesclose · Post by **danesclose** » Thu 14 Apr, 2016 9:28 am

HindleA wrote:http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/a ... nist-party

Golf is no longer a crime, decrees China's Communist party

Yet another thing the Chinese Communist Party & I will have to disagree on.
I agree with Robin Williams, golf is the only game which allows middle-aged, middle-class white Americans to dress like black pimps

danesclose · Post by **danesclose** » Thu 14 Apr, 2016 9:31 am

Seems like the BBC are solely responsible for traducing poor innocent John Whittingdale.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04 ... laims-cab/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 14 Apr, 2016 9:32 am

Be fair they "protected the vulnerable" by not freezing 100 % of vast cost saving entitlements,the fact that it is frozen anyway should be totally ignored.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 14 Apr, 2016 9:45 am

Good morfternoon.

Who would have thought that we would get to the point where Britain’s leading pro-Europeans - figures from the New Labour aristocracy like Tony Blair, Peter Mandelson and David Miliband, and recent Tory converts to Europe like David Cameron and George Osborne - are now dependent on Jeremy Corbyn to win them the EU referendum? (Politics Live, Guardian)

Just about everyone who gave the matter a moment's thought, I would suggest.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Thu 14 Apr, 2016 9:49 am

PorFavor wrote:Good morfternoon.

Who would have thought that we would get to the point where Britain’s leading pro-Europeans - figures from the New Labour aristocracy like Tony Blair, Peter Mandelson and David Miliband, and recent Tory converts to Europe like David Cameron and George Osborne - are now dependent on Jeremy Corbyn to win them the EU referendum? (Politics Live, Guardian)
Just about everyone who gave the matter a moment's thought, I would suggest.

Leader of most pro EU party is important. Shocked I am, said no one bar the political commentariat.

Maeght · Post by **Maeght** » Thu 14 Apr, 2016 10:00 am

I don't know if anybody else heard the bit about Eric the sniffer dog on Today.
He managed to sniff out some drugs planted on someone in the studio. He doesn't bark , just sits down and stares at the person he's caught.

I started daydreaming about a dog trained to sniff out lying politicians. I know Jeremy Corbyn has tried out a stare but it hasn't worked well. But wouldn't it be great to see DC pinned to the wall by a little spaniel and being stared at?

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Thu 14 Apr, 2016 10:00 am

rebeccariots2 wrote:
Gaby Hinsliff ‏@gabyhinsliff 6m6 minutes ago
'People think Jeremy doesn't really mean what he's saying about EUref. What do we do?' 'Duck a r4Today interview on it. That'll show em'
It's not like Cameron or his ministers ever decline to be interviewed eh. It has to be so much worse if it's Corbyn doing it.

Corbyn is probably saving what he wants to say for his speech today - and then let the press ask questions. Novel thought.

Hilary Benn did a good job on Radio 4 anyway.

The thing that really aggravates me about this narrative is the assumption that left of centre voters, the ones Corbyn is primarily appealing to, would respond positively to an unqualified endorsement of the EU. A lot of Labour voters have doubts about the EU. By understanding and sharing those doubts, but in balance coming down on the side of "in", Corbyn could be employing the most effective strategy to secure "in" votes among those he holds sway with. As things stand, Labour voters are more likely to vote "in" than Tory voters already, so Labour are more than doing their bit. They can't be expected to convince Cameron's voters as well, Tory waverers aren't going to be convinced by left-wing arguments. It feels like this is about blaming Labour if we get the "wrong" outcome, but it's not for the press to tell Labour and Labour voters what the "wrong" outcome is. We are under no obligation to support Cameron in his referendum. The government has a position of "in" and the government has majority support. If the government loses this referendum it will be because the government no longer commands the confidence of the people. The press are wrong to try to paint it any other way. I've just received a mailshot from Labour MEPs setting out the key points of Labour's arguments for "in". Labour are clearly working very hard to get their vote out in their own way. There are still 10 weeks to go, dynamic successful campaigns can be effective over much shorter periods. This "story" is very squirrel-like, if you ask me.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Thu 14 Apr, 2016 10:08 am

ephemerid wrote:Does anyone think we will see the Chilcot Report before the referendum?

Absolutely no chance. Even were it (finally) ready, it would be held back for obvious reasons.

(I think we might see MPs generally releasing their tax returns too, but again only *after* June 23)

Rebecca · Post by **Rebecca** » Thu 14 Apr, 2016 10:09 am

Maeght wrote:I don't know if anybody else heard the bit about Eric the sniffer dog on Today.
He managed to sniff out some drugs planted on someone in the studio. He doesn't bark , just sits down and stares at the person he's caught.

I started daydreaming about a dog trained to sniff out lying politicians. I know Jeremy Corbyn has tried out a stare but it hasn't worked well. But wouldn't it be great to see DC pinned to the wall by a little spaniel and being stared at?

Hmm.I think you might be too kind here.
I would like my GSD to pin Cameron to a wall and take a chunk out of him every time he lies.
The rest of them too.

edited to add: and also that annoying shit who calls himself Dub Maxim haunting btl at the guardian.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Thu 14 Apr, 2016 10:10 am

Maeght wrote:I don't know if anybody else heard the bit about Eric the sniffer dog on Today.
He managed to sniff out some drugs planted on someone in the studio. He doesn't bark , just sits down and stares at the person he's caught.

I started daydreaming about a dog trained to sniff out lying politicians. I know Jeremy Corbyn has tried out a stare but it hasn't worked well. But wouldn't it be great to see DC pinned to the wall by a little spaniel and being stared at?

Or taken down by a gang of commando guinea-pigs. he deserves no less, imo:

: G-force.jpg (25.98 KiB) Viewed 6140 times

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Thu 14 Apr, 2016 10:12 am

Forgot to mention last night, btw, that the present incarnation of FtN has just passed 100,000 posts. Well done everybody

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Thu 14 Apr, 2016 10:25 am

Excellent speech so far from Corbyn. He's making a very solid left-wing case for remain. Big on substance.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Thu 14 Apr, 2016 10:26 am

Willow904 wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:
Gaby Hinsliff ‏@gabyhinsliff 6m6 minutes ago
'People think Jeremy doesn't really mean what he's saying about EUref. What do we do?' 'Duck a r4Today interview on it. That'll show em'
It's not like Cameron or his ministers ever decline to be interviewed eh. It has to be so much worse if it's Corbyn doing it.

Corbyn is probably saving what he wants to say for his speech today - and then let the press ask questions. Novel thought.

Hilary Benn did a good job on Radio 4 anyway.
The thing that really aggravates me about this narrative is the assumption that left of centre voters, the ones Corbyn is primarily appealing to, would respond positively to an unqualified endorsement of the EU. A lot of Labour voters have doubts about the EU. By understanding and sharing those doubts, but in balance coming down on the side of "in", Corbyn could be employing the most effective strategy to secure "in" votes among those he holds sway with. As things stand, Labour voters are more likely to vote "in" than Tory voters already, so Labour are more than doing their bit. They can't be expected to convince Cameron's voters as well, Tory waverers aren't going to be convinced by left-wing arguments. It feels like this is about blaming Labour if we get the "wrong" outcome, but it's not for the press to tell Labour and Labour voters what the "wrong" outcome is. We are under no obligation to support Cameron in his referendum. The government has a position of "in" and the government has majority support. If the government loses this referendum it will be because the government no longer commands the confidence of the people. The press are wrong to try to paint it any other way. I've just received a mailshot from Labour MEPs setting out the key points of Labour's arguments for "in". Labour are clearly working very hard to get their vote out in their own way. There are still 10 weeks to go, dynamic successful campaigns can be effective over much shorter periods. This "story" is very squirrel-like, if you ask me.

Excellent post, Willow - ie. one with which I heartily agree. :lol!:

When I think about what happened to Labour in the IndyRef, the massive Labour losses at the GE in Scotland, and Cameron's vile behaviour after that referendum having got what he wanted thanks to Labour, I think Corbyn is doing just fine.
Campaigning for Remain on their own terms is the way to go, IMHO; Corbyn said he wanted more honest politics, and that's what this is. Yes, the EU has its' downsides; but to offer Cameron unqualified support now would just be repeating the IndyRef mistake.

I am already pro-Remain, and nothing the Brexit camp has to say will change my mind. I'm inclined to think that the longer game is just as important - Corbyn is demonstrating that he, like many others, has reservations, but on balance thinks we are better in than out.
If Labour can, with this, start to rebuild some unity, it has to be a good thing. Corbyn is beginning to gain some traction in the polls at last - and I think a lot of that is because he comes across as honest, and he seems to be looking at all the arguments.

The mayoral, local, and assembly elections come first; there has been a lot of campaigning on the doorstep here in Wales, and this is the first real test of Labour's new leadership. There is plenty of time for the EU-Ref campaign.

The Tories are in a mess - Corbyn is right to leave them to it and lead Labour to run it's Remain campaign in its' own way. It's always best not to interrupt your enemy while he's making a mistake, and it's perfectly possible to be anti-Cameron and Pro-Remain (with reservations, which have resonance for many people) at the same time.

seeingclearly · Post by **seeingclearly** » Thu 14 Apr, 2016 10:33 am

A long read, but also perhaps a must read if you want to understand just how far we have travelled.

The lawyer who takes the cases no one wants.

http://www.theguardian.com/news/2016/ap ... -one-wants" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 14 Apr, 2016 10:38 am

Cameron says EU has vital role in helping fight climate change (Politics Live, Guardian)

It's one thing to pretend that you get confused by the difference between Ed and David Miliband.

It's quite a different thing to expect us to believe that you genuinely can't tell the difference between a speech given by Jeremy Corbyn and one given by David Cameron. Dreadful reporting - even allowing for it being done on the hoof, as it is.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 14 Apr, 2016 10:44 am

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2016 ... er-charges" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Parkrun cancelled following outcry over charges

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Thu 14 Apr, 2016 10:48 am

Any ideas what Laura K posted that made her account go Puff!?

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 14 Apr, 2016 11:01 am

http://derbyshirelabour.co.uk/2016/04/d ... ren-first/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

At yesterday’s Full Council meeting Derbyshire Labour Group amended the Council Plan to help prevent Derbyshire schools being forced to become academies.
creating a new priority agreeing to oppose enforced academisation and offer support to schools that do not want to become academies, working with Governing Bodies, parents and community groups and others nationally and locally.

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Thu 14 Apr, 2016 11:31 am

Better off in jail? Women given tents & sleeping bags instead of homes when released from prison

https://www.rt.com/uk/339468-homeless-w ... ers-tents/

The number of women leaving jail with a secure place to go fell to around 88 percent in 2015, from 95 percent the previous year.
The report found that Bronzefield performed well overall, but said “the prison had issued tents to two women who were released without anywhere to go to and the chaplaincy often gave out sleeping bags. ”

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Thu 14 Apr, 2016 11:35 am

For those that still post over there.

Meet some of the Guardian's best below-the-line commenters

http://gu.com/p/4hz43" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Thu 14 Apr, 2016 11:42 am

RobertSnozers wrote:
StephenDolan wrote:For those that still post over there.

Meet some of the Guardian's best below-the-line commenters

http://gu.com/p/4hz43" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
They've got PeterCS on there???! And Fripouille???

Fuck. Off.

LOL, indeed.

mbc1955 · Post by **mbc1955** » Thu 14 Apr, 2016 11:44 am

HindleA wrote:Which one? (Millennium)

The next one.

Without a TARDIS, it can't appear before the last one, and if anyone has a TARDIS, I've a list of trips I want to make that's as long as several people's arms.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 14 Apr, 2016 11:49 am

http://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2016-03-16-pen ... pensioners" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Pension cuts have 'significant link' with death rates among older pensioners

Austerity and old-age mortality in England: a longitudinal cross-local area analysis, 2007–2013

http://m.jrs.sagepub.com/content/109/3/109.full" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 14 Apr, 2016 11:58 am

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2016 ... efits-rule" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

DWP 'punishing' low-paid full-time workers under new benefits rule

Far worse,IMHO it is penalising many not even expected to work in a pincer movement of sheer misanthropy.

GetYou · Post by **GetYou** » Thu 14 Apr, 2016 12:09 pm

The DWP said it had “no figures available” for the number of working UC claimants sanctioned under the new arrangements, and did not intend to publish any figures until the trials were complete.

Either they are not monitoring this, which makes them incompetent, or they are monitoring this, which makes them liars.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 14 Apr, 2016 12:35 pm

Many of those sanctioning,if this is rolled out,will be subject to being sanctioned.Musical chairs.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 14 Apr, 2016 12:39 pm

Good-afternoon, everyone.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 14 Apr, 2016 12:45 pm

RobertSnozers wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:
Gaby Hinsliff ‏@gabyhinsliff 6m6 minutes ago
'People think Jeremy doesn't really mean what he's saying about EUref. What do we do?' 'Duck a r4Today interview on it. That'll show em'
It's not like Cameron or his ministers ever decline to be interviewed eh. It has to be so much worse if it's Corbyn doing it.

Corbyn is probably saving what he wants to say for his speech today - and then let the press ask questions. Novel thought.

Hilary Benn did a good job on Radio 4 anyway.
Suggestion in reply to one of my comments (along the lines of 'where is Alan Johnson'?) is that Johnson is doing the minimum possible, taking very little of the spotlight and letting Corbyn take the fall for a muted Labour In campaign.

Sounds depressingly plausible.

What was supposedly Alan Johnson's function at today's event, do you reckon? I clocked the "I mean business", heavy-rimmed specs - but what else?

Edited to add a hyphen

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 14 Apr, 2016 12:52 pm

Daniel Hannan
✔
‎@DanHannanMEP

In accepting EU membership, Jeremy Corbyn is also accepting TTIP, rail privatisation, austerity in Greece etc. (Politics Live, Guardian)

Not in the stuff I heard, he wasn't.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Thu 14 Apr, 2016 1:08 pm

PorFavor wrote:
Daniel Hannan
✔
‎@DanHannanMEP

In accepting EU membership, Jeremy Corbyn is also accepting TTIP, rail privatisation, austerity in Greece etc. (Politics Live, Guardian)
Not in the stuff I heard, he wasn't.

There is a very large left of centre bloc in the EU, which the Labour party belongs to. Are all the other left-wing parties in that bloc accepting TTIP, rail privatisation and Greek austerity or are they maybe hoping to get more left-wing MEPs elected so they can form majority and implement more social democratic policies?

Edited to add, I don't see that it's possible for both Keunssberg and Hannan's take on Corbyn's attitude to the EU to be correct at the same time. Either he has reservations or he doesn't, but he can't be attacked for wholeheartedly endorsing everything about the EU at the same time as being attacked for not wholeheartedly supporting the EU. The press have got away with pushing these kind of conflicting themes for too long. So we had the "Red Tory" "Red Ed" Miliband who was a communist Tory, apparently, and now we have the EU loving/hating Corbyn. Except Corbyn actually does seem to have a love/hate relationship with Europe. I'm actually quite curious to see where this conflicting narrative ends up.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Thu 14 Apr, 2016 1:08 pm

Laura Kuenssberg ‏@bbclaurak · 1m1 minute ago

Ah Twitter back in business-something technically weird happened, back online now - a morning without being on here felt a rather nice rest

Somehow she's even irritating in this Tweet

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Thu 14 Apr, 2016 1:13 pm

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Beyond belief

Goldsmith rants on about how Khan has been fanning the flames of extremism by meeting Suliman Gani

Suliman Gani posts on Twitter a selfie of himself with, wait for it, Zac Goldsmith!

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Thu 14 Apr, 2016 1:13 pm

Apologies if we've already done that one btw

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 14 Apr, 2016 1:18 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Apologies if we've already done that one btw

No apologies necessary from me - alarming dissonance from this Tory MP can't be pointed out too often.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Thu 14 Apr, 2016 1:22 pm

Have we had this? On EU referendum Corbyn the sellout bashing day,
A&E delays reach new record level - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-36044198" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

danesclose · Post by **danesclose** » Thu 14 Apr, 2016 1:34 pm

PorFavor wrote:
Daniel Hannan
✔
‎@DanHannanMEP

In accepting EU membership, Jeremy Corbyn is also accepting TTIP, rail privatisation, austerity in Greece etc. (Politics Live, Guardian)
Not in the stuff I heard, he wasn't.

Alternatively, in wanting to leave the EU, Hannan & others on the Neanderthal wing of the Tory Party are in favour of rail nationalisation & are against TTIP, austerity in Greece, etc.?

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 14 Apr, 2016 1:40 pm

danesclose wrote:
PorFavor wrote:
Daniel Hannan
✔
‎@DanHannanMEP

In accepting EU membership, Jeremy Corbyn is also accepting TTIP, rail privatisation, austerity in Greece etc. (Politics Live, Guardian)
Not in the stuff I heard, he wasn't.
Alternatively, in wanting to leave the EU, Hannan & others on the Neanderthal wing of the Tory Party are in favour of rail nationalisation & are against TTIP, austerity in Greece, etc.?

Logical fallacy?

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Thu 14 Apr, 2016 1:42 pm

PorFavor wrote:
Daniel Hannan
✔
‎@DanHannanMEP

In accepting EU membership, Jeremy Corbyn is also accepting TTIP, rail privatisation, austerity in Greece etc. (Politics Live, Guardian)
Not in the stuff I heard, he wasn't.

When is the SNCF being privatised?

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Thu 14 Apr, 2016 2:32 pm

They seem to be OK with it in Italy too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrovie_ ... o_Italiane" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The company was privatized in 1992 with the creation of the new Ferrovie dello Stato SpA, a joint-stock company, following a European guideline. However, the privatization was only formal, since shares were still owned by the Italian Government.[8]

On 1 June 2000, the company's two main divisions, service and infrastructure, were separated and two different independent companies were created: Trenitalia, responsible for transport service, and Rete Ferroviaria Italiana, responsible for the management of the rail infrastructure. Both companies were still subsidiaries of Ferrovie dello Stato Holding SpA.[9]

Other examples exist in Europe...

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Thu 14 Apr, 2016 3:23 pm

HindleA wrote:http://www.theguardian.com/society/2016 ... efits-rule

DWP 'punishing' low-paid full-time workers under new benefits rule

Far worse,IMHO it is penalising many not even expected to work in a pincer movement of sheer misanthropy.

Can't see how telling someone they don't have the right to not be looking for work while they are on holiday is not an infringement of a right to family life - i.e. human right. I'd like to see that challenged legally - and the ridiculous notion that someone who is on zero hours contract and might already work 40 hours in a week can guarantee to find the time to fit in another job .... or that someone who has unpredictable hours of work should be punished for not be able to attend the DWP because they have to work. I thought there was a generally accepted universal understanding that regulatory measures need to be 'reasonable' - this is patently not reasonable - and should be challenged.