Saturday 30th April, Sunday 1st May 2016 & Monday 2nd May

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 02 May, 2016 9:06 am

rebeccariots2 wrote:
Tony Blair: Jeremy Corbyn can't be kept off future leadership ballot
https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/po ... nt-be-kept" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Speculation is mounting that Mr Corbyn could face a challenge within weeks amid mounting anger among many moderate backbenchers about his performance.

His handling of the anti-Semitism row engulfing the party have (sic) led to further criticism.

According to The Times, Mr Blair told moderate MPs last summer that even if they were initially successful in keeping Mr Corbyn out of the contest, Labour's ruling National Executive Committee would intervene to hand him a place in the contest.

Labour MP Diane Abbott said yesterday: “If Jeremy is on the ballot, Jeremy wins. All the polling shows that Jeremy is as popular with Labour party members now as he was when he was first elected.”

However one senior member source said, in the wake of the anti-Semitism row: “Most of the core of the party membership is pretty aghast,” he said. “I’m not so sure that the membership would just vote for him again. But there is a moral case now for having the argument [that he should go] more explicitly.”
If I didn't think the Blairites were responsible for making the most of the Naz Shah and Livingstone debacle in order to damage Corbyn and our election chances before - I do now. Yes - I am aghast - but NOT at Corbyn.

I am so f*****g angry with them. I daren't think about it for too long.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 02 May, 2016 9:31 am

ohsocynical wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:
Tony Blair: Jeremy Corbyn can't be kept off future leadership ballot
https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/po ... nt-be-kept" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Speculation is mounting that Mr Corbyn could face a challenge within weeks amid mounting anger among many moderate backbenchers about his performance.

His handling of the anti-Semitism row engulfing the party have (sic) led to further criticism.

According to The Times, Mr Blair told moderate MPs last summer that even if they were initially successful in keeping Mr Corbyn out of the contest, Labour's ruling National Executive Committee would intervene to hand him a place in the contest.

Labour MP Diane Abbott said yesterday: “If Jeremy is on the ballot, Jeremy wins. All the polling shows that Jeremy is as popular with Labour party members now as he was when he was first elected.”

However one senior member source said, in the wake of the anti-Semitism row: “Most of the core of the party membership is pretty aghast,” he said. “I’m not so sure that the membership would just vote for him again. But there is a moral case now for having the argument [that he should go] more explicitly.”
If I didn't think the Blairites were responsible for making the most of the Naz Shah and Livingstone debacle in order to damage Corbyn and our election chances before - I do now. Yes - I am aghast - but NOT at Corbyn.
I am so f*****g angry with them. I daren't think about it for too long.

I hadn't volunteered for leafleting this year. Not sure how Mr Ohso would be, or myself for that matter but yesterday our lone hard working Councillor Mary Temperton limped to our house with leaflets for the PC election.
There's been nothing delivered from any of the parties. The Tories dislike their PC who is up for election so aren't putting themselves out. It's all very low key.
However, Mary met the Lab candidate for PC and was very impressed with her. Highly qualified, young, good personality. Very very suitable.
Mary said she was so impressed she rashly ordered 15,000 leaflets, and had delivered a load of them herself, but she'd nearly come to a standstill her knees were hurting so badly, so that's what I'll be doing later today in my neighbourhood - if I can manage to stay upright long enough that is. Some days when I walk I look like a happy drunk.

I am getting so p****d off with it. A career MP pontificates in a TV Studio or has a few quiet words in a journalist's ear to stir things up, and all the hard work goes for nowt.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Mon 02 May, 2016 9:39 am

I think strategically it would be better if Corbyn left later rather than sooner, but I share the frustration of some Labour MPs that he's not able to reach beyond Labour's core vote. He's not revitalizing the party or moving it forward particularly and for some of us this is a painful period of waiting for him to fail, as it's hard to see how he won't. I can't see Corbyn ever being PM, he appears to lack the all out commitment to the job. As someone else said, McDonnell might have been the better left winger for the job. He communicates more passion, at least. I'm not sure if those who agree with Corbyn's politics can see how he comes across to those who still need convincing. He seems half-hearted much of the time and generally I find him very hard to relate to, probably because we are from completely different generations. It's very unusual for me to feel so little connection and so little faith in a Labour leader. It's not the press or the Blairites that are making me feel this way. It's Corbyn I'm afraid. He's not convincing me.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Mon 02 May, 2016 9:58 am

Willow904 wrote:I think strategically it would be better if Corbyn left later rather than sooner, but I share the frustration of some Labour MPs that he's not able to reach beyond Labour's core vote. He's not revitalizing the party or moving it forward particularly and for some of us this is a painful period of waiting for him to fail, as it's hard to see how he won't. I can't see Corbyn ever being PM, he appears to lack the all out commitment to the job. As someone else said, McDonnell might have been the better left winger for the job. He communicates more passion, at least. I'm not sure if those who agree with Corbyn's politics can see how he comes across to those who still need convincing. He seems half-hearted much of the time and generally I find him very hard to relate to, probably because we are from completely different generations. It's very unusual for me to feel so little connection and so little faith in a Labour leader. It's not the press or the Blairites that are making me feel this way. It's Corbyn I'm afraid. He's not convincing me.

We are just entering his 7th month since being elected leader. I suppose it depends what you mean by revatalising the party. Our branch very definitely has been revitalized - we've had larger meetings, interesting discussions and lots of ideas for strategy and future plans - and more helpers on the ground. Higher up in the echelons there is obviously a lot more process to go through and culture change that needs to happen and will definitely take longer. When I'm out and about he's proven to be more of an asset than an obstacle on the doorstep. Very small sample obviously but these are not all people that would normally vote Labour who say he's a good thing. I don't agree with all his politics.

Is there anyone you think you would feel a connection with and faith in at present?

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Mon 02 May, 2016 10:09 am

RobertSnozers wrote:
Willow904 wrote:I think strategically it would be better if Corbyn left later rather than sooner, but I share the frustration of some Labour MPs that he's not able to reach beyond Labour's core vote. He's not revitalizing the party or moving it forward particularly and for some of us this is a painful period of waiting for him to fail, as it's hard to see how he won't. I can't see Corbyn ever being PM, he appears to lack the all out commitment to the job. As someone else said, McDonnell might have been the better left winger for the job. He communicates more passion, at least. I'm not sure if those who agree with Corbyn's politics can see how he comes across to those who still need convincing. He seems half-hearted much of the time and generally I find him very hard to relate to, probably because we are from completely different generations. It's very unusual for me to feel so little connection and so little faith in a Labour leader. It's not the press or the Blairites that are making me feel this way. It's Corbyn I'm afraid. He's not convincing me.
This week feels a bit 'back to square one', it's true. I do think Corbyn had been excellent on steel, housing and the academies policy in the last few weeks and knocking lumps out of the government on a number of issues. That said, he hadn't quite hit home on the doctors' strike, although actually supporting it and going and making a speech there was amazing compared with recent leaders. I could perhaps see Ed M doing this, but not Brown and certainly not Blair.

And that, for me, is still the chief appeal for Corbyn. His uncomplicated, untriangulated support for actual left wing policies - workers' rights, nationalisation etc, his unapolagetic opposition to austerity is exactly where Labour needs to be. Even Ed was far too timid about a lot of this stuff, and I think Corbyn's leadership has shown he needn't have been - though I suspect Ed Balls was preventing a fair bit of 'proper' leftwing stuff. I know this isn't a popular view here, but I'd take Corbyn over Ed any day of the week. If Corbyn can't do it, then I want someone who will stick to that basic position, but without the baggage. The problem with that is that the immoderates won't accept anything less than a full scale return to neoliberalism.

Thank you for saying that. I wanted to articulate what I found appealing about his approach and couldn't do it as well as you have. I did know that the style Willow finds half-hearted I find a welcome break from the over tricksy, hard to explain and overspun patterns that Labour seemed to have fallen into whilst trying to oppose the coalition. For me the difference between Byrne / Reeves and Owen Smith typifies the change - much needed.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 02 May, 2016 10:17 am

Our lone councillor Mary Temperton, has just been given a Pride of Bracknell award. She works tirelessly for her constituents and as the sole councillor, basically for the whole town if they ask. If she can't help you, she'll know someone who can. The list of causes she's involved with is long. She has helped so many people. Strangely the town votes in Conservatives who really can't be bothered as long as their expenses pad out their lifestyles.

It would be a huge loss if the Cons won her ward, yet thanks to some MPs, busily stirring the pot and plotting in the background, it could well happen. Then they'll use it as an excuse to force a leadership election.

There are hundreds of people just like her. Working themselves into the ground for the community. Are the likes of Mann, Dugher, et al bothered? No. Not from where I'm standing.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 02 May, 2016 10:26 am

ohsocynical wrote:
Our lone councilor Mary Temperton, has just been given a Pride of Bracknell award. She is a lovely lady and works tirelessly for her constituents and as the sole Lab councillor, basically for the whole town if they ask. If she can't help you, she'll know someone who can.
And ex teacher, the list of causes she's involved with is long. She has helped many people.
Strangely the town still votes in Conservatives who really can't be bothered as long as their expenses pad out their lifestyles.

Our council elections were last year so we're okay for a while, but thousands of Councillors, who just like Mary, work themselves to a standstill are at risk, yet, thanks to some MPs busily stirring the pot and plotting in the background, it could well happen. Then they'll use it as an excuse to force a leadership election.

So much is at stake.

Are the likes of Mann, Dugher, et al bothered? Not from where I'm standing.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 02 May, 2016 10:47 am

rebeccariots2 wrote:
Willow904 wrote:I think strategically it would be better if Corbyn left later rather than sooner, but I share the frustration of some Labour MPs that he's not able to reach beyond Labour's core vote. He's not revitalizing the party or moving it forward particularly and for some of us this is a painful period of waiting for him to fail, as it's hard to see how he won't. I can't see Corbyn ever being PM, he appears to lack the all out commitment to the job. As someone else said, McDonnell might have been the better left winger for the job. He communicates more passion, at least. I'm not sure if those who agree with Corbyn's politics can see how he comes across to those who still need convincing. He seems half-hearted much of the time and generally I find him very hard to relate to, probably because we are from completely different generations. It's very unusual for me to feel so little connection and so little faith in a Labour leader. It's not the press or the Blairites that are making me feel this way. It's Corbyn I'm afraid. He's not convincing me.
We are just entering his 7th month since being elected leader. I suppose it depends what you mean by revatalising the party. Our branch very definitely has been revitalized - we've had larger meetings, interesting discussions and lots of ideas for strategy and future plans - and more helpers on the ground. Higher up in the echelons there is obviously a lot more process to go through and culture change that needs to happen and will definitely take longer. When I'm out and about he's proven to be more of an asset than an obstacle on the doorstep. Very small sample obviously but these are not all people that would normally vote Labour who say he's a good thing. I don't agree with all his politics.

Is there anyone you think you would feel a connection with and faith in at present?

So has ours. People joining who've never done so before for Lab or any other party.
Personally I prefer quiet thoughtful men. Ed certainly was, Corbyn is even more so.

The ex Lab candidate I was talking to yesterday was insisting it's only since the Jewish row broke out that the Blairites have raised their heads, which is f******g rubbish. He also said the term Blairite is being used as an insult. Too bloody right it is. They've been dripping away with their poison since he shot ahead in the leadership election.
I said what about being called 'Looney Lefty' and to get over it.
And I know I didn't imagine reading that the Blairites were going to use the Mayoral elections to try to unseat Corbyn.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Mon 02 May, 2016 10:55 am

This morning BBCNews24 is leading with Syria and Zika.
Be thankful for small mercies.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Mon 02 May, 2016 11:00 am

This is a very interesting article -
http://www.danieldcollins.wordpress.com ... the-media/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is better - from Pam Ayres -
"Let's raise a glass to Philip Green
In Monaco with wealth obscene,
There he stands upon his yacht
"I name this ship the Pension Pot"

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 02 May, 2016 11:10 am

RobertSnozers wrote:
Willow904 wrote:I think strategically it would be better if Corbyn left later rather than sooner, but I share the frustration of some Labour MPs that he's not able to reach beyond Labour's core vote. He's not revitalizing the party or moving it forward particularly and for some of us this is a painful period of waiting for him to fail, as it's hard to see how he won't. I can't see Corbyn ever being PM, he appears to lack the all out commitment to the job. As someone else said, McDonnell might have been the better left winger for the job. He communicates more passion, at least. I'm not sure if those who agree with Corbyn's politics can see how he comes across to those who still need convincing. He seems half-hearted much of the time and generally I find him very hard to relate to, probably because we are from completely different generations. It's very unusual for me to feel so little connection and so little faith in a Labour leader. It's not the press or the Blairites that are making me feel this way. It's Corbyn I'm afraid. He's not convincing me.
This week feels a bit 'back to square one', it's true. I do think Corbyn had been excellent on steel, housing and the academies policy in the last few weeks and knocking lumps out of the government on a number of issues. That said, he hadn't quite hit home on the doctors' strike, although actually supporting it and going and making a speech there was amazing compared with recent leaders. I could perhaps see Ed M doing this, but not Brown and certainly not Blair.

And that, for me, is still the chief appeal for Corbyn. His uncomplicated, untriangulated support for actual left wing policies - workers' rights, nationalisation etc, his unapolagetic opposition to austerity is exactly where Labour needs to be. Even Ed was far too timid about a lot of this stuff, and I think Corbyn's leadership has shown he needn't have been - though I suspect Ed Balls was preventing a fair bit of 'proper' leftwing stuff. I know this isn't a popular view here, but I'd take Corbyn over Ed any day of the week. If Corbyn can't do it, then I want someone who will stick to that basic position, but without the baggage. The problem with that is that the immoderates won't accept anything less than a full scale

return to neoliberalism.

You've said that very well.
What I can't get past is that when you appeal to a right winger to drop the dogma for a while and concentrate on the suicides, desperation, hunger, fear, worry and disquiet that is affecting millions of people, he'll brush right over it and go on about cleaning out pockets of racial bias and extremism, no matter how small.
Perhaps I look at it too simply, but it leads me to one conclusion although I can't put it very well, and that is they are more concerned with their careers. Careers in politics means cliques, cliques want power.

Empathy and a duty to those they represent counts for nothing with many of them.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 02 May, 2016 11:15 am

ephemerid wrote:This is a very interesting article -
http://www.danieldcollins.wordpress.com ... the-media/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is better - from Pam Ayres -
"Let's raise a glass to Philip Green
In Monaco with wealth obscene,
There he stands upon his yacht
"I name this ship the Pension Pot"

Ken Livingstone: “It’s completely over the top but it’s not anti-Semitism. Let’s remember when Hitler won his election in 1932, his policy then was that Jews should be moved to Israel. He was supporting Zionism – this before he went mad and ended up killing six million Jews.”

I get so many Tweets I miss a lot but pretty sure the other day someone having a go at Livingstone Tweeted that Hitler didn't go mad.

Well he certainly wasn't sane. Talk about splitting hairs

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Mon 02 May, 2016 11:19 am

Another image of the bombed No.30 bus in Tavistock Square in July 2005, as used by Goldsmith in his Daily Heil column, has been used before.

An aerial shot of that bus was used in a BNP leaflet, with the caption "Maybe now it's time to start listening to the BNP", at a council bye-election in Barking on 14th July 2005, just seven days after the bombings.

David Davis was the Tory shadow home secretary at the time and condemned the use of that image, as did the then leader of the Conservatives in London, Bob Neill.

How times have changed.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 02 May, 2016 11:25 am

It now seems that Livingstone isn't the only political veteran to put their foot in it. Gerry Adams

nickyinnorfolk · Post by **nickyinnorfolk** » Mon 02 May, 2016 11:26 am

Kevin Maguire in the Mirror. Also worth looking at for the excellent Rowson cartoon depicting what passes as the Tory moral high ground (ie a fetid swamp).

Conservative intervention in Labour anti-Semitism row is "sickening hypocrisy"

Labour must stamp out any anti-Semitism but it is sickening opportunist hypocrisy for the Tories to accuse the party of racism .

I recall David Cameron listing as a “gimmick” free school trips to Auschwitz introduced by Gordon Brown so children witnessed the horrors of a Holocaust in which Hitler exterminated six million Jews.

Shameless Boris Johnson lacks self-awareness in daring to lecture Labour after calling black people “piccaninnies”, then more recently raising Barack Obama’s Kenyan heritage to accuse the US President of hating Britain.

Then there’s the Tory “full blown racist scream”, as Labour’s decent Yvette Cooper accurately described the disgraceful smearing by Conservatives, from Cameron down, of Sadiq Khan who thankfully remains hot favourite to be London’s next mayor.

The demonising of a mainstream politician because he’s a Muslim, inventing extremist scares and claiming he’s a security risk, is bottom of the barrel scraping racist filth.

Cameron never allows inconvenient facts to get in the way of a grotesque dirty trick, as he demonstrated by seeking to tether Khan to an unsavoury iman who actually backed the Labour MP’s Tory opponent in Tooting at the last election.

So spare us Tories pretending to occupy the moral high ground when they’re sinking into a cesspit.

I utterly condemn hateful anti-Semitism and all forms of racism, including Islamophobia. Jeremy Corbyn hasn’t a racist bone in his body and is wise to establish an inquiry to root out any contamination within Labour.

The abuse I’ve read confirms racism isn’t restricted to one party or politics.

Yet prejudice when it surfaces will always damage most a Labour Party committed to fairness and tolerance.

Ken Livingstone is a sad , attention-seeking, offence-causing figure but is he anti-Semitic? I don’t think so. If an investigation rules he is, then suspension must be followed by expulsion.

Britain goes to the polls on Thursday and the race row is exploited to undermine support for the party, isolate Corbyn ahead of a potential coup and, by some, to deflect criticism of Israel.

Labour is a shambles and the brawl in the hall between Livingstone and ranting MP John Mann is a gift to its enemies.

But spare me the moralising from jaundiced Cameron and bigoted Tories.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/co ... sm-7877493" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

nickyinnorfolk · Post by **nickyinnorfolk** » Mon 02 May, 2016 11:41 am

Goldsmith, in his relentless mission to ingratiate himself with voters of Indian origin, makes a total plonker of himself. After saying he 'loves almost everything about Bollywood', he's unable to name a single film or actor.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/bo ... th-7874818" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Mon 02 May, 2016 11:51 am

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... labour-mps" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Corbyn ally Len McCluskey attacks ‘treacherous’ Labour MPs

While I don't particularly disagree with McCluskey's sentiments, it's yet more dirty linen being aired in public. Can't either side just shut up and keep this wrangling out of the headlines?

Anyway, the rest of the article is a run of the mill obsession with Labour. A bit more analysis of all the parties's chances, not just Labour and Lib dems would be nice. What struck me most was the figures of a predicted 175 seat loss for Labour but at best just a 30 seat gain for the Tories, which gives it all away, really. Labour is going to do badly in Scotland compared to 2012. But we already know that. It has nothing to do with Corbyn. I really hope the main core of Labour keep calm and stick with Corbyn regardless of May results as that way the focus will rapidly shift back to the EU and Cameron's problems, which are substantial and, unlike Corbyn's, all completely of his own making. I may not be a Corbyn fan, but the policy positions being taken are ok and right now there is little to be gained by yet more upheaval. These local elections were always going to be rough, but a Labour London mayor would fundamentally alter the political landscape and start the process of Labour being taken seriously in government again. Anyone in Labour deliberately putting that at risk are really lacking in political nous, if power is what they're after. There's little point wrestling back control of the party if in doing so they undermine the chances of the party ever winning a GE.

Anyway, I've got my fingers crossed for ohsocynical's local councillor. Every victory counts and having a local Labour councillor, even within a Tory run council, can make a real difference. Looking at the numbers, she should be fine. It's mostly Scotland that's going to lose the benefit of Labour councillors, as far as I can tell.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Mon 02 May, 2016 11:52 am

nickyinnorfolk wrote:Goldsmith, in his relentless mission to ingratiate himself with voters of Indian origin, makes a total plonker of himself. After saying he 'loves almost everything about Bollywood', he's unable to name a single film or actor.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/bo ... th-7874818" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Reminded me of this...

[youtube]AbMSUQE36us[/youtube]

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 02 May, 2016 11:56 am

There are no council elections in ohso's part of the world, Willow - just the PCC. No council elections in Scotland (or Wales) until next year either.

nickyinnorfolk · Post by **nickyinnorfolk** » Mon 02 May, 2016 11:58 am

Sturgeon put her foot in it by posing on the front page of the Scottish Sun, in the week of the Hillsborough verdict.

The Scottish Sun of course was backing her in last year's General Election, purely to damage Labour, whereas the Sun south of the border was backing the Tories.

So La Sturge is a Murdoch stooge. She opposes the 50p tax rate. She's recycled Thatcher's election slogan 'don't hope for a better life; vote for one'. How long before Scots voters have the scales fall from their eyes and realise what a Tartan Tory she is?

This tweet from bill (@kingbill73) says it all:

Oh fuckado Sturgeon is making the Tory argument for not taxing the wealthy more. So fucking much sexy socialism Mrs Doubtfire.

nickyinnorfolk · Post by **nickyinnorfolk** » Mon 02 May, 2016 12:06 pm

I can't stand Ruth Davidson either, she's totally misguided politically, but at least she's honest about what she is.

Plus she quit her job with the BBC to be a full time Tory politico unlike some people [cough] Kuenssberg!![cough]

Plus she thinks it's hilarious that she bears a striking resemblance to Kim Jong Un.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Mon 02 May, 2016 12:20 pm

The Times today (can't link - paywall, picked it up on Twitter) is saying that Labour must "lose big" this week so that the moderates can get rid of Corbyn. The article describes Corbyn as a man "of nugatory intellect".

It's a sad day when a newspaper with the history of "The Thunderer" sees fit to misuse a word to denigrate the intelligence of someone it dislikes. The Times may think that Corbyn's intellect is of no importance, but if it wants us to think it believes he is thick, the least it could do is use a word that actually means what it intends to convey.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Mon 02 May, 2016 12:29 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:There are no council elections in ohso's part of the world, Willow - just the PCC. No council elections in Scotland (or Wales) until next year either.

So where are those 175 council seats going, if not SNP or Tories? I thought ohso was worried about Mann et al jeopardizing a local councillor, but looking back I see where I got confused on that score, but I really thought Scotland had some local as well as assembly elections. We had our locals last year as well, so I'm now really bemused as to where Labour will be losing all these local seats and who to!

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 02 May, 2016 12:33 pm

ephemerid wrote:The Times today (can't link - paywall, picked it up on Twitter) is saying that Labour must "lose big" this week so that the moderates can get rid of Corbyn. The article describes Corbyn as a man "of nugatory intellect".

It's a sad day when a newspaper with the history of "The Thunderer" sees fit to misuse a word to denigrate the intelligence of someone it dislikes. The Times may think that Corbyn's intellect is of no importance, but if it wants us to think it believes he is thick, the least it could do is use a word that actually means what it intends to convey.

I found it poignant . . . .

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 02 May, 2016 12:34 pm

Good morfternoon.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 02 May, 2016 12:34 pm

Temulkar wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:
RobertSnozers wrote: I wonder what proportion of people living in Wales speak Welsh?

The state of the Welsh language: Number of people speaking Welsh fluently falls by 7,000 over the last decade
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales ... le-8538272" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

... The Welsh Language Use Survey for 2013/14 shows that 11% or 310,600 of all people aged three and over living in Wales could speak Welsh fluently.

That is down on 12% recorded in a similar study in 2004/06 – the equivalent of 317,300 people...
Yeah but that is subject to wild variations. I doubt 1% of Cardiff, Newport or Swansea speak welsh fluently. I live in Ammanford where you are looking at 70% of the population being fluent and using it on a daily basis. Ceredigion and Gwynedd are even higher. I speak welsh every day out of neccessity. On top of that everyone under the age of 50 had compulsory welsh in school, so has a basic understanding - road signs for example are not difficult now are they letsskip?

I have a problem when the language is forced on people - esp in Education as a single medium- but see no issue with a bilingual society.

The 2011 census results showed Ceredigion as only 47.35% Welsh speaking (down from 51% in 2001).

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Mon 02 May, 2016 12:39 pm

In Liverpool -

David Burgess-Joyce, the Tory candidate for Merseyside's Police and Crime Commissioner (salary: not unadjacent to £85,000PA) was sacked from the Serious Organised Crime Agency in 2013 for gross misconduct.

Full story http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 02 May, 2016 12:47 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:@yahyah

Did you sort out your ballot paper mistakes?

Mr YahYah phoned the council.
It seems that the issue is whether the voter's intention is clear on the ballot paper.
Instead of putting an X against the 1st choice, I wrote 1st in that column against my choice, and 2nd in the second column.

So we reckon my choice will be clear, can't be rejected on the basis that my intention is hard to fathom.
Hopefully Labour officials at the count will keep an eye on things like that.
I didn't trust Ceredigion council to post me a new paper in time as they had already cocked things up twice. And didn't want to have to go in person on Thursday if I'm having a bad health day.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 02 May, 2016 12:50 pm

ephemerid wrote:The Times today (can't link - paywall, picked it up on Twitter) is saying that Labour must "lose big" this week so that the moderates can get rid of Corbyn. The article describes Corbyn as a man "of nugatory intellect".

It's a sad day when a newspaper with the history of "The Thunderer" sees fit to misuse a word to denigrate the intelligence of someone it dislikes. The Times may think that Corbyn's intellect is of no importance, but if it wants us to think it believes he is thick, the least it could do is use a word that actually means what it intends to convey.

Indeed, whereas we could use the word correctly in the case of Murdoch's Times. Nugatory = Not valid = of little value

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Mon 02 May, 2016 1:01 pm

OK. I've found a local election map, now, so hopefully I won't make any more mistakes about who's voting for what and where!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_ ... ions,_2016" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 02 May, 2016 1:04 pm

ephemerid wrote:In Liverpool -

David Burgess-Joyce, the Tory candidate for Merseyside's Police and Crime Commissioner (salary: not unadjacent to £85,000PA) was sacked from the Serious Organised Crime Agency in 2013 for gross misconduct.

Full story http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It was pretty clear when May pushed it through that if we weren't careful it would be well paying jobs for the boys...Thames Valley's PC is a classic example. Useless old trougher describes him rather well.

In the Home counties they'd vote for the dirtiest, roughest pig in the sty as long as it had a blue rosette on. And they frequently do.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 02 May, 2016 1:05 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
ephemerid wrote:In Liverpool -

David Burgess-Joyce, the Tory candidate for Merseyside's Police and Crime Commissioner (salary: not unadjacent to £85,000PA) was sacked from the Serious Organised Crime Agency in 2013 for gross misconduct.

Full story http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
It was pretty clear when May pushed it through that if we weren't careful it would be well paying jobs for the boys...Thames Valley's PC is a classic example. Useless old trougher describes him rather well.

In the Home counties they'd vote for the dirtiest, roughest pig in the sty as long as it had a blue rosette on stuck on its arse. And they frequently do.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 02 May, 2016 1:07 pm

Keep opening a new post today instead of editing properly.

Need a new brain, need a new brain....

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 02 May, 2016 1:10 pm

So only the Telegraph is desperately trying to keep the 'Labour anti-semitsm' story going on its front page.

nickyinnorfolk · Post by **nickyinnorfolk** » Mon 02 May, 2016 1:11 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
ephemerid wrote:The Times today (can't link - paywall, picked it up on Twitter) is saying that Labour must "lose big" this week so that the moderates can get rid of Corbyn. The article describes Corbyn as a man "of nugatory intellect".

It's a sad day when a newspaper with the history of "The Thunderer" sees fit to misuse a word to denigrate the intelligence of someone it dislikes. The Times may think that Corbyn's intellect is of no importance, but if it wants us to think it believes he is thick, the least it could do is use a word that actually means what it intends to convey.

Indeed, whereas we could use the word correctly in the case of Murdoch's Times. Nugatory = Not valid = of little value

Corbyn is a thoughtful and intelligent person - and he speaks fluent Spanish. All this stuff about his intellect is based on his A-level results in 1967, which isn't really a very reliable indicator. Stephen Fry, who seems to be quite well regarded in the brains department (I personally find him annoying even if he is a part time local) failed all his A-levels first time round as well. Zac Goldsmith had the benefit of an Eton education but still ended up doing his A-levels at a crammer.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 02 May, 2016 2:08 pm

RobertSnozers wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:
ephemerid wrote:In Liverpool -

David Burgess-Joyce, the Tory candidate for Merseyside's Police and Crime Commissioner (salary: not unadjacent to £85,000PA) was sacked from the Serious Organised Crime Agency in 2013 for gross misconduct.

Full story http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
It was pretty clear when May pushed it through that if we weren't careful it would be well paying jobs for the boys...Thames Valley's PC is a classic example. Useless old trougher describes him rather well.

In the Home counties they'd vote for the dirtiest, roughest pig in the sty as long as it had a blue rosette on. And they frequently do.
In Hants/IoW our Tory candidate last time round was Michael Mates, minister in the Major government who had to resign in 1993 due to his support during a criminal investigation for Asil Nadir, who turned out to be a massive fraudster. The whiff of scandal sticks to Mates like you wouldn't believe - accusations of electoral fraud, financial irregularities, using racist language in his election statement, and not actually living in the area he was standing to represent. Somehow he managed to sidestep it all. (Incidentally, his son is a journalist for ITN. Yet another minor connection between the media and the establishment).

Fortunately, the folk of Hampshire balked even voting for Mates, but if there hadn't been an alternative Tory - independent Simon Hayes, former Tory councillor - I wonder. At least Hayes is standing as an independent again. It would have been all too easy for him to have slotted back into the Tory ranks.

(cJA emphasis)

I read your post quickly the first time, RobertSnozers. I thought 'Mates' was a nickname you were giving the man to
emphasise Ohso's point about 'jobs for the boys'. But no, it's his name. We're trapped in someone's novel, the lot of us.

Good-afternoon, everyone.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Mon 02 May, 2016 2:30 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
Tony Blair: Jeremy Corbyn can't be kept off future leadership ballot
https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/po ... nt-be-kept" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Speculation is mounting that Mr Corbyn could face a challenge within weeks amid mounting anger among many moderate backbenchers about his performance.

His handling of the anti-Semitism row engulfing the party have (sic) led to further criticism.

According to The Times, Mr Blair told moderate MPs last summer that even if they were initially successful in keeping Mr Corbyn out of the contest, Labour's ruling National Executive Committee would intervene to hand him a place in the contest.

Labour MP Diane Abbott said yesterday: “If Jeremy is on the ballot, Jeremy wins. All the polling shows that Jeremy is as popular with Labour party members now as he was when he was first elected.”

However one senior member source said, in the wake of the anti-Semitism row: “Most of the core of the party membership is pretty aghast,” he said. “I’m not so sure that the membership would just vote for him again. But there is a moral case now for having the argument [that he should go] more explicitly.”
If I didn't think the Blairites were responsible for making the most of the Naz Shah and Livingstone debacle in order to damage Corbyn and our election chances before - I do now. Yes - I am aghast - but NOT at Corbyn.

I fail to see how this is the Blairites fault. Do they somehow have mind control over Ken Livingstone, Dianne Abbott or Len McClusky?

Corbyn's team have utterly mishandled this (Shah was stupid and immature but at least she recognised it).

Blaming Blairites for the mis-steps of the top Labour team is classic external locus of control stuff.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 02 May, 2016 2:33 pm

Willow904 wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:There are no council elections in ohso's part of the world, Willow - just the PCC. No council elections in Scotland (or Wales) until next year either.
So where are those 175 council seats going, if not SNP or Tories? I thought ohso was worried about Mann et al jeopardizing a local councillor, but looking back I see where I got confused on that score, but I really thought Scotland had some local as well as assembly elections. We had our locals last year as well, so I'm now really bemused as to where Labour will be losing all these local seats and who to!

It's very confusing. Bracknell's was last year. But this year It's Wokingham's which is just down the road from us. Labour are hoping to win a couple of seats there, and have been helping out. We shall see.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Mon 02 May, 2016 2:37 pm

: Vote for me or the extremist gets it.jpg (73.37 KiB) Viewed 5780 times

Rupert Myers ‏@RupertMyers 4h4 hours ago
This is the consequence of the intervention

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 02 May, 2016 2:38 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
Willow904 wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:There are no council elections in ohso's part of the world, Willow - just the PCC. No council elections in Scotland (or Wales) until next year either.
So where are those 175 council seats going, if not SNP or Tories? I thought ohso was worried about Mann et al jeopardizing a local councillor, but looking back I see where I got confused on that score, but I really thought Scotland had some local as well as assembly elections. We had our locals last year as well, so I'm now really bemused as to where Labour will be losing all these local seats and who to!
It's very confusing. Bracknell's was last year. But this year It's Wokingham's which is just down the road from us. Labour are hoping to win a couple of seats there, and have been helping out. We shall see.

Got that wrong. One council seat in Wokingham Without, up for grabs due to a resignation. [I think I've got it right this time.] Other leafleting is for the PC slot.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 02 May, 2016 2:41 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:
Willow904 wrote: So where are those 175 council seats going, if not SNP or Tories? I thought ohso was worried about Mann et al jeopardizing a local councillor, but looking back I see where I got confused on that score, but I really thought Scotland had some local as well as assembly elections. We had our locals last year as well, so I'm now really bemused as to where Labour will be losing all these local seats and who to!
It's very confusing. Bracknell's was last year. But this year It's Wokingham's which is just down the road from us. Labour are hoping to win a couple of seats there, and have been helping out. We shall see.
Got that wrong. One council seat in Wokingham Without, up for grabs due to a resignation. [I think I've got it right this time.] Other leafleting is for the PC slot.

Bugger. It's two seats up for grabs on Wokingham council....

Need a new brain, need a new brain..............

Post by **refitman** » Mon 02 May, 2016 2:54 pm

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:
Tony Blair: Jeremy Corbyn can't be kept off future leadership ballot
https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/po ... nt-be-kept" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Speculation is mounting that Mr Corbyn could face a challenge within weeks amid mounting anger among many moderate backbenchers about his performance.

His handling of the anti-Semitism row engulfing the party have (sic) led to further criticism.

According to The Times, Mr Blair told moderate MPs last summer that even if they were initially successful in keeping Mr Corbyn out of the contest, Labour's ruling National Executive Committee would intervene to hand him a place in the contest.

Labour MP Diane Abbott said yesterday: “If Jeremy is on the ballot, Jeremy wins. All the polling shows that Jeremy is as popular with Labour party members now as he was when he was first elected.”

However one senior member source said, in the wake of the anti-Semitism row: “Most of the core of the party membership is pretty aghast,” he said. “I’m not so sure that the membership would just vote for him again. But there is a moral case now for having the argument [that he should go] more explicitly.”
If I didn't think the Blairites were responsible for making the most of the Naz Shah and Livingstone debacle in order to damage Corbyn and our election chances before - I do now. Yes - I am aghast - but NOT at Corbyn.
I fail to see how this is the Blairites fault. Do they somehow have mind control over Ken Livingstone, Dianne Abbott or Len McClusky?

Corbyn's team have utterly mishandled this (Shah was stupid and immature but at least she recognised it).

Blaming Blairites for the mis-steps of the top Labour team is classic external locus of control stuff.

It was 3 hours between Livingstone mouthing off and him being suspended by the party and a review has been instigated. Yet we've had the usual people pop up and moan that not enough has been done.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 02 May, 2016 3:07 pm

Testing!!!!

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ChdMzE8WIAE_1Oq.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 02 May, 2016 3:09 pm

ohsocynical wrote:Testing!!!!

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ChdMzE8WIAE_1Oq.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As you were. It worked. BBC Tweets in order of [in their opinion] importance.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 02 May, 2016 3:23 pm

refitman wrote:
TechnicalEphemera wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote: If I didn't think the Blairites were responsible for making the most of the Naz Shah and Livingstone debacle in order to damage Corbyn and our election chances before - I do now. Yes - I am aghast - but NOT at Corbyn.
I fail to see how this is the Blairites fault. Do they somehow have mind control over Ken Livingstone, Dianne Abbott or Len McClusky?

Corbyn's team have utterly mishandled this (Shah was stupid and immature but at least she recognised it).

Blaming Blairites for the mis-steps of the top Labour team is classic external locus of control stuff.
It was 3 hours between Livingstone mouthing off and him being suspended by the party and a review has been instigated. Yet we've had the usual people pop up and moan that not enough has been done.

Including the 2015 candidate for Bracknell. Supposedly intelligent, well educated people are following that line. They must be using a different dictionary to me.

And they want me to trust them to be in charge? Not blooming likely.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 02 May, 2016 3:26 pm

RobertSnozers wrote:
refitman wrote:
TechnicalEphemera wrote:
I fail to see how this is the Blairites fault. Do they somehow have mind control over Ken Livingstone, Dianne Abbott or Len McClusky?

Corbyn's team have utterly mishandled this (Shah was stupid and immature but at least she recognised it).

Blaming Blairites for the mis-steps of the top Labour team is classic external locus of control stuff.
It was 3 hours between Livingstone mouthing off and him being suspended by the party and a review has been instigated. Yet we've had the usual people pop up and moan that not enough has been done.
Not to mention the suspiciously convenient accidental meeting between John Mann and Livingstone at Millbank studios. That smacked of Stephen Doughty's equally convenient resignation. A bit like certain people pop up here when Corbyn has a bad week but are silent when he has a good spell. I fail to see how Corbyn's team could have acted any more decisively or quickly. The problem was not mishandling at the top but (perhaps predicatable) idiocy from Livingstone.

Len McClusky should have left it alone, frankly, as the news cycle was going to have to move on at some point. Corbyn's team have no control over that, either. You won't often hear me say this, but Diane Abbott actually did pretty well. Apart from a strident headline in the Graun, she helped rather than hindered the situation IMO.

I've always viewed Ken as a bit of a loose cannon and Diane Abbot comes a close second. This time she did okay.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 02 May, 2016 3:59 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:
ohsocynical wrote: It's very confusing. Bracknell's was last year. But this year It's Wokingham's which is just down the road from us. Labour are hoping to win a couple of seats there, and have been helping out. We shall see.
Got that wrong. One council seat in Wokingham Without, up for grabs due to a resignation. [I think I've got it right this time.] Other leafleting is for the PC slot.
Bugger. It's two seats up for grabs on Wokingham council....
Need a new brain, need a new brain..............

No, you don't need a new brain - the country needs a fair, representative and coherent election(s) process.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 02 May, 2016 4:12 pm

The Blairites saying we're blaming them for what Ken said is stupid. It's more diversionary tactics.

What we are blaming them for is adding fuel to the fire. It was all so quick and slick you can't blame people for being suspicious.
They didn't even bother to check whether his quotes were correct or not. Ken had barely got his mouth shut before their names appeared denouncing him and saying Labour had a problem and they've not shut up since.

Even Khan did it and he of all people should know better.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 02 May, 2016 4:45 pm

Even Michael White has said the furore over Ken is opportunism.

ScarletGas · Post by **ScarletGas** » Mon 02 May, 2016 4:56 pm

RobertSnozers wrote:
refitman wrote:
TechnicalEphemera wrote:
I fail to see how this is the Blairites fault. Do they somehow have mind control over Ken Livingstone, Dianne Abbott or Len McClusky?

Corbyn's team have utterly mishandled this (Shah was stupid and immature but at least she recognised it).

Blaming Blairites for the mis-steps of the top Labour team is classic external locus of control stuff.
It was 3 hours between Livingstone mouthing off and him being suspended by the party and a review has been instigated. Yet we've had the usual people pop up and moan that not enough has been done.
Not to mention the suspiciously convenient accidental meeting between John Mann and Livingstone at Millbank studios. That smacked of Stephen Doughty's equally convenient resignation. A bit like certain people pop up here when Corbyn has a bad week but are silent when he has a good spell. I fail to see how Corbyn's team could have acted any more decisively or quickly. The problem was not mishandling at the top but (perhaps predicatable) idiocy from Livingstone.

Len McClusky should have left it alone, frankly, as the news cycle was going to have to move on at some point. Corbyn's team have no control over that, either. You won't often hear me say this, but Diane Abbott actually did pretty well. Apart from a strident headline in the Graun, she helped rather than hindered the situation IMO.

Agreed on Diane Abbot. When I heard she was on Marr I groaned inwardly. She however did a very good job, including going toe to toe with Marr when coming out with the ridiculous contrived scenarios he comes out with constantly. Loved it when she called a question of his ridiculous and he took very personally sputtering "so I am ridiculous am I". Viewers all over the country would have called out in unison yes! I have wanted more Labour interviewees to show some assertion for some time rather than cowering in front of interviewers.

By the way has anyone spotted anything in the MSM about Marr and his smear of Seamus Milne (apart from the Guardian who shamefully repeated it in their coverage) Of course not. Although there was a stuttering apology later in the interview if that had been about any other section of the political spectrum it would have been plastered all over the front page especially in the Daily Fascist who would have used it as another stick to beat the BBC with.

Anyone who can claim (as seems to be the case further up the page) that the (if I can call them this) the Liz Kendall partisans are whiter than white in this whole saga is (with the utmost respect) showing an extreme naivety. Of course both sides are guilty to one degree or another but to call out the Corbyn faction as the only ones at fault is just denying the facts.

I may not go along completely with suggestions such as (for instance) John Mann tipped off the press (although from the little I have seen of the man it would not surprise me) there of plenty of examples of collusion with the media in their narrow (and in my view disloyal) attempts to undermine the elected leadership. I dread to think what happens if there actually is a leadership challenge and (as looks likely) Corbyn still retains the leadership.

Meanwhile the country is going to pot, more information on Cameron and his offshore dealings are coming to light, our education and health system is being destroyed for the sake of an ideology, corruption (I will not use any other word) between our establishment (including some labour members) and the Pravda like press continues unabated and unreformed.