Friday May 27th 2016

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 27 May, 2016 5:09 am

Morning

http://www.parliament.uk/business/commi ... hed-15-16/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Overstretched justice system failing victims and witnesses

The Public Accounts Committee report warns that the criminal justice system is close to breaking point.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36394842" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Fri 27 May, 2016 7:23 am

Morning.

From Private Eye:

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Fri 27 May, 2016 8:14 am

BRING ON PURDAH. IT CAN'T COME FAST ENOUGH.

Morning.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 27 May, 2016 8:18 am

Bianca Jagger liked my tweet,just thought I would share that.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Fri 27 May, 2016 8:20 am

Anatoly asked about Question Time last night.

Someone said it was a bit like Jerry Springer. I agree. It was very rowdy - lots of shouts of rubbish from the audience. Lots of panellists talking over each other (Caroline Lucas did that a lot to my surprise). Based on vocalisation scores I would say there were a lot of Leavers in the audience. Shame in some respects as the mix of panellists was more interesting and less Punch and Judy than usual - so had more potential for some useful discussion had Dimbleby been able to manage things more skilfully.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Fri 27 May, 2016 8:22 am

HindleA wrote:Bianca Jagger liked my tweet,just thought I would share that.

What was the tweet HindleA? You are *awful* with the tantalising posts.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 27 May, 2016 8:24 am

A comment about her article in Huff.Post.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bianca-ja ... 43356.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Fri 27 May, 2016 8:35 am

Morning All - some great posts already

If I may, I'd like to continue the interesting discussion about the economic recovery. Tubby made a fair point about GDP. But look at this per capita GDP data!

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 27 May, 2016 8:43 am

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/m ... 800m-cliff" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

World's scariest school run? Chinese children tackle 800m cliff to get to lessons
Children as young as six from Atuler village in Sichuan province have to scale a rockface using rickety ladders

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 27 May, 2016 8:44 am

"character building"

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 27 May, 2016 8:47 am

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016 ... en-for-art" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Pair of glasses left on US gallery floor mistaken for art

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Fri 27 May, 2016 9:05 am

Morning all

Had a tooth (pronounced tuth where I come from) removed yesterday.....3 layers of pain - before, during and when I receive the bill!

Just watching the BBC Breakfast debate on EU - it really is incredible to see the amount of crap that gets discussed and the complete bollocks coming out of the mouths of the leavers (and guess what-it is really all about immigration)

To compound it they have some BBC types on the panel - the lady, apparently European editor, is absolutely useless.....where do they get these people from?

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 27 May, 2016 9:16 am

Haven't been to the dentist for years,since I was asked to stop screaming with pain,they said they would have given me more anaesthetic if I had told them,I said my contorted face and howls of agony may have given them a clue.It seems rum to pay for pain,unless you are into that kind of thing.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 27 May, 2016 9:21 am

He looked like the dentist in "Marathon Man" which didn't help.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Fri 27 May, 2016 9:21 am

HindleA wrote:Haven't been to the dentist for years,since I was asked to stop screaming with pain,they said they would have given me more anaesthetic if I had told them,I said my contorted face and howls of agony may have given them a clue.It seems rum to pay for pain,unless you are into that kind of thing.

My dentist is a Brazilian and is really good - no pain during or after....apart from the bill of course

Did get a bit scared when he went for the really big pliers though!!!!

Finding this immigration debate poisonous - economically illiterate (and you can see that without immigration we would still be in recession) and the idea that we will have total control of our borders is so ignorant of the realpolitik and examples such as Switzerland

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 27 May, 2016 9:28 am

Agree.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Fri 27 May, 2016 10:47 am

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Morning All - some great posts already

If I may, I'd like to continue the interesting discussion about the economic recovery. Tubby made a fair point about GDP. But look at this per capita GDP data!

I'm with you on this PfY. Guess it looks different from inside the M25.

Larry Elliott in the G
https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... f-payments" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Were it not for the referendum, some searching questions would be asked of the government. Whatever happened to growth based on investment and exports? Why is the economy so dependent on the consumer? Where is the promised renaissance of manufacturing?

George Osborne promised a march of the makers. What he has delivered is a stampede of the spenders. The chancellor has warned that there will be a recession if Britain votes to leave the EU. As it stands, there is a good chance of a recession even if the UK votes to remain.

If we had decent media, they'd be asking those questions regardless of the EUref.

What I find most indefensible is the construction figures. You could say that the govt's influence over manufacturing is limited, but they could be doing some of that infrastructure investment they talk about.

Tubby's right that Osborne won't make the spending cuts he's promised, but I suspect he'll attempt to achieve his deficit target by infinitely deferring HS2 etc..

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Fri 27 May, 2016 10:53 am

As has been coined, 3H (Hinkley, Heathrow and hs2) can't be kicked down the road indefinitely. No Lib Dem figleaf is available, it's all on the Tories.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Fri 27 May, 2016 10:54 am

rebeccariots2 wrote:Anatoly asked about Question Time last night.

Someone said it was a bit like Jerry Springer. I agree. It was very rowdy - lots of shouts of rubbish from the audience. Lots of panellists talking over each other (Caroline Lucas did that a lot to my surprise). Based on vocalisation scores I would say there were a lot of Leavers in the audience. Shame in some respects as the mix of panellists was more interesting and less Punch and Judy than usual - so had more potential for some useful discussion had Dimbleby been able to manage things more skilfully.

I watched most of it, can't remember the last time I did that, recorded so I could ff Hilton, who talks drivel. I thought it was quite fun, particularly DD v DD.
Not enough Ed.

Agree that the sudience was a bit unbalanced but both sides were enthusiastic applauders.

Can't remember who they said would be on next week but it was instant turn-off, might be a while before I watch it again.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Fri 27 May, 2016 10:55 am

EU referendum: Ed Miliband and Jeremy Corbyn to join forces in climate change warning
'Every major climate change agreement has involved EU leadership. So when it comes to climate change Britain stands taller and is stronger inside the EU'

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 50461.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Fri 27 May, 2016 10:57 am

StephenDolan wrote:As has been coined, 3H (Hinkley, Heathrow and hs2) can't be kicked down the road indefinitely. No Lib Dem figleaf is available, it's all on the Tories.

I think he'll try though.

Personally I don't want any of them, unless they start HS2 from the north end.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Fri 27 May, 2016 11:01 am

ohsocynical wrote:EU referendum: Ed Miliband and Jeremy Corbyn to join forces in climate change warning
'Every major climate change agreement has involved EU leadership. So when it comes to climate change Britain stands taller and is stronger inside the EU'

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 50461.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What's happened to the simplified /cheapest tarrif promise from Cameron btw?

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Fri 27 May, 2016 11:12 am

I think that in 20 years time climate change will be overshadowing all other problems.

Have you seen this?
http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense ... rming.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Fri 27 May, 2016 11:31 am

RobertSnozers wrote:Apologies if I missed references yesterday, but it seems Labour took s Stapenhill (E Staffs) council seat from Ukip with a +12/5% swing, so perhaps the whole narrative that Ukip is denuding Labour's core vote is premature. (Although it does seem that a lot of those votes came from Green, but the Ukip vote was down too)

Actually UKIP support only went down slightly, but the Tories (a close third last year) bombed.

More later

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Fri 27 May, 2016 12:51 pm

RobertSnozers wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:EU referendum: Ed Miliband and Jeremy Corbyn to join forces in climate change warning
'Every major climate change agreement has involved EU leadership. So when it comes to climate change Britain stands taller and is stronger inside the EU'

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 50461.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I've heard Corbyn refer to the environment quite a bit when talking about the EU. The environment does seem, anecdotally, to be a higher priority under Corbyn. I'd be interested to hear what Temulkar and other folk with a Green connection think.

Corbyn's labour is saying a lot of the right things on enviromental issues, the problem is of course the rest of the PLP who are demonstrating - as usual - how wedded they are to the current status quo. Having a climate change denying brother doesnt help either.

Gilsey is right, in 20 years time it will be at the forefront of everything, but in 20 years time its already too late. The solutions to the problem are so radical and wide ranging that it won't happen in time now. And even if they were implemented globally, it will take centuries before the ecosystem is back in equilibrium. Nothing in geological terms, of course, but too much for most humans to grasp. The decisions being taken are evidence of that. Hinkley point if its built will end up costing 20-30 billion to provide 6% of domestic power needs for 40-50 years. For the same price you could build barrages and dams that could provide the same or more for 200-300 years.

Many in Labour still don't get it - grotesque vanity projects like HS2 show me that, but add on support for regulated fracking and nuclear, and you can see why I havent returned to labour despite the party having a leader who I agree with on many issues.

History will be the judge of us all, and in 30-40 years time, if I am still knocking about, when people ask how the hell we could have let this happen, I will at least be able to say I spoke out, I voted, I marched; I'm sorry it wasn't enough.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Fri 27 May, 2016 12:52 pm

gilsey wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Morning All - some great posts already

If I may, I'd like to continue the interesting discussion about the economic recovery. Tubby made a fair point about GDP. But look at this per capita GDP data!
I'm with you on this PfY. Guess it looks different from inside the M25.

Larry Elliott in the G
https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... f-payments" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Were it not for the referendum, some searching questions would be asked of the government. Whatever happened to growth based on investment and exports? Why is the economy so dependent on the consumer? Where is the promised renaissance of manufacturing?

George Osborne promised a march of the makers. What he has delivered is a stampede of the spenders. The chancellor has warned that there will be a recession if Britain votes to leave the EU. As it stands, there is a good chance of a recession even if the UK votes to remain.
If we had decent media, they'd be asking those questions regardless of the EUref.

What I find most indefensible is the construction figures. You could say that the govt's influence over manufacturing is limited, but they could be doing some of that infrastructure investment they talk about.

Tubby's right that Osborne won't make the spending cuts he's promised, but I suspect he'll attempt to achieve his deficit target by infinitely deferring HS2 etc..

It's not about "inside the M25" (which as far the eye can see is social and ex-social housing in my case anyway). We're looking at an aggregate booming population, which has more than made up for the not brilliant GDP per capita). Capital for investment should be freely moving after this freely moving labour force. It's very striking to me that it's fallen now, even though it's been disappointing for ages.

Ireland is a good, and underrated comparison, with Britain. Similar labour market, in the EU, and with similar cultural links. It's hoovered up FDI, not least because interest rates have risen in America. The UK should be attracting more of that.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Fri 27 May, 2016 1:01 pm

I think HS2 has been so strongly backed that it'll go ahead on time. If Osborne's looking to save money by deferring, the bad news is that Sir David Higgins, when he reviewed it a couple of years ago, brought forward the section to Crewe by 6 years (to 2027).

Some people suspect that the line will stop there and not go on to Manchester. But that's out of Osborne's political life, one hopes.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Fri 27 May, 2016 1:12 pm

Anyone thinking HS2 is a vanity project, has to be explain why rail passenger growth (which has doubled in 18 years), plus freight (up 60% in 20 years) isn't going to continue. I've not come across anybody who doesn't think it will.

All the passenger growth has happened at a time when fares have been, to put it mildly, not cheap. Cross party policy since 2007 has been to reduce the subsidy for current tickets and spend more on investment. If the investment (not just HS2 but all the other stuff) were to go ahead, and a government were elected determined to cut fares (subsidy for trains is basically small change in overall budget terms) then the potential for passenger growth is incredible.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Fri 27 May, 2016 1:14 pm

I don't know if anyone else has seen this or knows anything about it:

http://politicalscrapbook.net/2016/05/c ... ls-leaked/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The chair of the Calderdale Conservatives Association has resigned after growing internal controversy over its accounts being submitted to the Electoral Commission.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Fri 27 May, 2016 1:18 pm

There was something in the Hebden Bridge press about it.
Someone linked it on the AS blog today.
Will pop over and see if I can find it.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Fri 27 May, 2016 1:21 pm

http://www.hebdenbridge.co.uk/news/2016/141.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Not much more there.
Maybe worth keeping an eye on The Halifax Courier too for updates
They say 'more to follow'

http://www.halifaxcourier.co.uk/news/ca ... -1-7935162" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Fri 27 May, 2016 1:50 pm

RobertSnozers wrote:Apologies if I missed references yesterday, but it seems Labour took s Stapenhill (E Staffs) council seat from Ukip with a +12/5% swing, so perhaps the whole narrative that Ukip is denuding Labour's core vote is premature. (Although it does seem that a lot of those votes came from Green, but the Ukip vote was down too)

What do they say? WOWSER!!!!

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Fri 27 May, 2016 1:55 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:Anyone thinking HS2 is a vanity project, has to be explain why rail passenger growth (which has doubled in 18 years), plus freight (up 60% in 20 years) isn't going to continue. I've not come across anybody who doesn't think it will.

All the passenger growth has happened at a time when fares have been, to put it mildly, not cheap. Cross party policy since 2007 has been to reduce the subsidy for current tickets and spend more on investment. If the investment (not just HS2 but all the other stuff) were to go ahead, and a government were elected determined to cut fares (subsidy for trains is basically small change in overall budget terms) then the potential for passenger growth is incredible.

So invest in the broken network we have, rather than building a trainspotters wet dream for businessmen to travel 20 mins quicker, never mind the enviromental cost, fuck the future of the planet, businessmen must be able to cut 20 minutes off their journey time!!! It's the millenium dome all over again, except this time it trashes on our natural wealth.

Most of the passenger increase over the last 20 years has been in London and the south East have they not? How is a train from London to Birmingham going to alleviate the service problems there? It wont, it cant, claiming otherwise is a nonsnse. Spend the money on the rail network by all means - it could use it - dont waste it on a white elephant; dont commit an enviromental crime so businessmen can travel 20 minutes quicker. Its morally repugnant and physically nauseating.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Fri 27 May, 2016 1:56 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:Anyone thinking HS2 is a vanity project, has to be explain why rail passenger growth (which has doubled in 18 years), plus freight (up 60% in 20 years) isn't going to continue. I've not come across anybody who doesn't think it will.

All the passenger growth has happened at a time when fares have been, to put it mildly, not cheap. Cross party policy since 2007 has been to reduce the subsidy for current tickets and spend more on investment. If the investment (not just HS2 but all the other stuff) were to go ahead, and a government were elected determined to cut fares (subsidy for trains is basically small change in overall budget terms) then the potential for passenger growth is incredible.

Greater investment throughout the UK in public transportation, rail, is essential. Is HS2 the project to pursue?

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Fri 27 May, 2016 1:56 pm

Good-afternoon, everyone.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Fri 27 May, 2016 1:57 pm

Temulkar wrote: Gilsey is right, in 20 years time it will be at the forefront of everything, but in 20 years time its already too late.

IMO it was already too late 20 years ago.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Fri 27 May, 2016 2:34 pm

Talking of transport, Burnham was pushing for Osborne to put his money where his mouth is to get West to East train lines improved instead of cross rail 2.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Fri 27 May, 2016 2:37 pm

Published four hours ago:

Jeremy Corbyn and Ed Miliband will publicly join forces to warn that Britain’s membership of the European Union
is vital in the fight against climate change.

In their first major appearance together since the Labour leader took over the party eight months ago, Mr Miliband and
Mr Corbyn will share a platform together at Raventhorpe solar farm to emphasise the central role the pair believe the
EU has had in tackling climate change.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 50461.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The article repeatedly makes references to the last GE for no logical reason, it's little more than gossip, but does manage
to inform readers Corbyn and Miliband are working together. The laws of physics can't be bought off or negotiated away.
Global and national leadership and cooperation are essential.

@Temulkar
Does Piers Corbyn, Jeremy Corbyn's brother, impede the efforts Corbyn on environment? Piers' climate change denial is
outside the bounds of reason as well as science. Does media bringing up Piers and his brother's environmental work in
the Labour party do anything more than undermine the credibility of media? Seriously. Piers is so wrong it's more sad
than anything else.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Fri 27 May, 2016 2:40 pm

gilsey wrote:
Temulkar wrote: Gilsey is right, in 20 years time it will be at the forefront of everything, but in 20 years time its already too late.
IMO it was already too late 20 years ago.

I agree with you. However, we must do all that's possible to stop further degradation, repair what we can and work like it's not too late.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Fri 27 May, 2016 2:41 pm

StephenDolan wrote:Talking of transport, Burnham was pushing for Osborne to put his money where his mouth is to get West to East train lines improved instead of cross rail 2.

I've always liked Burnham.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Fri 27 May, 2016 2:59 pm

From the same article I've linked above:

However, Jacob-Rees Mogg, a Tory MP advocating Brexit, told The Independent the idea that the EU helps the environment is “false”.

He added: “The EU in an effort to reduce carbon dioxide emissions and subject to heavy lobbying by the German car manufacturers
introduced regulations to encourage the use of diesel engines. This has led to a sharp deterioration in air quality in cities with an
increase in particulates and nitrous oxide. This has led to early deaths."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 50461.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You've got some hell of a nerve, buster, Tory government you're part of has had six years to bust a move on air quality breaches
in the UK. What the devil has the Tory party done but shrug their shoulders and spend more funds on UK Court challenges on
air quality violations - all lost by your Tory government. The Court has ruled your Tory government disregard with impunity air
quality standards necessary protecting the health of all. You and your government don't give a rat’s ass about the health of
people all over the UK - look to your government's record! No funding for public transportation, hydraulic fracturing
permissions, further fossil fuel investment instigated by current Tory government, not the EU, and you dare say this?
Cutting the 'green crap'? Removing funding for promised renewable energy development and support while giving
tax incentives to fossil fuel corporations to degrade the environment some more. What's Tory government done
about VW's fraudulent products? They're still on the road, still polluting the environment, people having
purchased them given nothing but telephone number to be put on hold. You dare open your Tory
mouth, Rees-Mogg? You think it's a good idea for people to vote out of the EU at a time your
Tory government is in government?

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Fri 27 May, 2016 3:02 pm

citizenJA wrote:Published four hours ago:
Jeremy Corbyn and Ed Miliband will publicly join forces to warn that Britain’s membership of the European Union
is vital in the fight against climate change.

In their first major appearance together since the Labour leader took over the party eight months ago, Mr Miliband and
Mr Corbyn will share a platform together at Raventhorpe solar farm to emphasise the central role the pair believe the
EU has had in tackling climate change.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 50461.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The article repeatedly makes references to the last GE for no logical reason, it's little more than gossip, but does manage
to inform readers Corbyn and Miliband are working together. The laws of physics can't be bought off or negotiated away.
Global and national leadership and cooperation are essential.

@Temulkar
Does Piers Corbyn, Jeremy Corbyn's brother, impede the efforts Corbyn on environment? Piers' climate change denial is
outside the bounds of reason as well as science. Does media bringing up Piers and his brother's environmental work in
the Labour party do anything more than undermine the credibility of media? Seriously. Piers is so wrong it's more sad
than anything else.

No I don't personally think it does at all but people do bring it up.

We need to divest ourselves from burning fossil fuels globally within ten years. We need to invest in a massive reforestation programme in the tropics particularly, but everywhere in general. We need to cut back our consumption of meat in the west to 5% of what it is now, the rest of the world a bit less. We needto recycle, massively, and get the waste out of the sea - cos thats where most of our food and energy should be coming from. It means international cooperation on an unprecedented scale. Which wont happen until there is a catastrophe so large it cannot be ignored by the rich and powerful anymore.

Mankind will probably survive this century, but the model of capitalist western civilisation won't. Whether it collapses or is refashioned is down to us, but we really are in the end game now and its not looking good.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Fri 27 May, 2016 3:06 pm

"The mayor of London, Sadiq Khan, has joined a high court challenge against the government over its air pollution plans, overturning
the position of his predecessor, Boris Johnson. Khan filed legal documents on Thursday and can now submit a witness statement and
evidence to the court on the air pollution crisis in the capital.

Environmental lawyers ClientEarth are suing the government for the second time in a year, having won a case at the supreme court
in 2015 which ordered ministers to fulfil their legal duty to cut pollution in “the shortest time possible”. The new case argues the
government is still failing to do this."

- Damian Carrington
The UK faces a second legal challenge on its plans for reducing air pollution in the capital.
26 May 2016

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/ ... t_b-gdneco" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Sadiq Khan is Labour.
Good man.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Fri 27 May, 2016 3:12 pm

Temulkar wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:Anyone thinking HS2 is a vanity project, has to be explain why rail passenger growth (which has doubled in 18 years), plus freight (up 60% in 20 years) isn't going to continue. I've not come across anybody who doesn't think it will.

All the passenger growth has happened at a time when fares have been, to put it mildly, not cheap. Cross party policy since 2007 has been to reduce the subsidy for current tickets and spend more on investment. If the investment (not just HS2 but all the other stuff) were to go ahead, and a government were elected determined to cut fares (subsidy for trains is basically small change in overall budget terms) then the potential for passenger growth is incredible.
So invest in the broken network we have, rather than building a trainspotters wet dream for businessmen to travel 20 mins quicker, never mind the enviromental cost, fuck the future of the planet, businessmen must be able to cut 20 minutes off their journey time!!! It's the millenium dome all over again, except this time it trashes on our natural wealth.

Most of the passenger increase over the last 20 years has been in London and the south East have they not? How is a train from London to Birmingham going to alleviate the service problems there? It wont, it cant, claiming otherwise is a nonsnse. Spend the money on the rail network by all means - it could use it - dont waste it on a white elephant; dont commit an enviromental crime so businessmen can travel 20 minutes quicker. Its morally repugnant and physically nauseating.

Hard to know where to start with that.

It isn't "20 minutes" quicker. It's 35 minutes quicker from London to Birmingham. If you think this isn't much, try some of these

http://assets.hs2.org.uk/sites/default/ ... %20LOW.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Birmingham to Newcastle- time saved on HS2, 1 hour 7 minutes. Plenty more of those in there, between cities that everybody agrees needs better transport links.

And it's not a zero sum game either. Leicester isn't on HS2 and the leader of the council used to oppose it strongly. Now he's leading the case for connecting Leicester to it at Toton.

Been an intercity train lately? I did on Wednesday. Hardly anybody looked like a "businessman", because they weren't. Just as people on TGVs aren't all businessmen.

As for "white elephants", that's exactly what most of the "they should do this instead" schemes that are put forward are. They sound great but often the assumptions of the consultants aren't even shared.

Virgin West Coast passengers have been growing by 7% a year since 2009, Great Recession and all. I haven't seen anyone explain why this should stop. Nor do you. The WCML was patched up before. It was incredibly disruptive and expensive.

Plenty is happening on other lines, by the way. Rail passengers are paying for more of this than they should be, but it's very impressive. And lots more will happen before HS2 opens.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Fri 27 May, 2016 3:16 pm

citizenJA wrote:
StephenDolan wrote:Talking of transport, Burnham was pushing for Osborne to put his money where his mouth is to get West to East train lines improved instead of cross rail 2.
I've always liked Burnham.

Do you think he'd suit being a mayor if elected?

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Fri 27 May, 2016 3:17 pm

citizenJA wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:Anyone thinking HS2 is a vanity project, has to be explain why rail passenger growth (which has doubled in 18 years), plus freight (up 60% in 20 years) isn't going to continue. I've not come across anybody who doesn't think it will.

All the passenger growth has happened at a time when fares have been, to put it mildly, not cheap. Cross party policy since 2007 has been to reduce the subsidy for current tickets and spend more on investment. If the investment (not just HS2 but all the other stuff) were to go ahead, and a government were elected determined to cut fares (subsidy for trains is basically small change in overall budget terms) then the potential for passenger growth is incredible.
Greater investment throughout the UK in public transportation, rail, is essential. Is HS2 the project to pursue?

Plenty is supposed to be happening. Whether Osborne bites the bullet and ponies up extra money or cuts some of it, we don't yet know.

Have a look under "Control Period 5". Annoyingly, the most comprehensive stuff seems to be PDF.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Fri 27 May, 2016 3:19 pm

Temulkar wrote:We need to divest ourselves from burning fossil fuels globally within ten years. We need to invest in a massive reforestation programme in the tropics particularly, but everywhere in general. We need to cut back our consumption of meat in the west to 5% of what it is now, the rest of the world a bit less. We needto recycle, massively, and get the waste out of the sea - cos thats where most of our food and energy should be coming from. It means international cooperation on an unprecedented scale. Which wont happen until there is a catastrophe so large it cannot be ignored by the rich and powerful anymore.

Mankind will probably survive this century, but the model of capitalist western civilisation won't. Whether it collapses or is refashioned is down to us, but we really are in the end game now and its not looking good.

Yes, good post.
I like that the subject below is discussed and researched. I hope for good work to come from it. Work for good regardless of
circumstances. I accept it may not be enough but that can't stop me.

Groupthink is depriving the West of vision
Nik Gowing & Chris Langdon

"The highest levels of leadership must now assume that a rapid-fire succession of abnormal, disruptive events is the new reality.
Yet the scale and frequency of policy failings shows that the established ways of major companies, civil servants or ministerial
private offices are no longer configured appropriately. Many at the top level are in denial.

Why do leaderships remain reluctant to conceive of events that then happen? We conclude that frequently this was not just
because developments were unthinkable: more accurately, they were unpalatable for leaders. They and those who work for
them are often in denial. Data and signals are usually available. Yet for a variety of internal reasons those signs – and a
frank assessment of what they suggest – are often marginalized or buried by systems that discourage the airing of
unwelcome assessments."

https://www.chathamhouse.org/publicatio ... est-vision

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Fri 27 May, 2016 3:19 pm

citizenJA wrote:
"The mayor of London, Sadiq Khan, has joined a high court challenge against the government over its air pollution plans, overturning
the position of his predecessor, Boris Johnson. Khan filed legal documents on Thursday and can now submit a witness statement and
evidence to the court on the air pollution crisis in the capital.

Environmental lawyers ClientEarth are suing the government for the second time in a year, having won a case at the supreme court
in 2015 which ordered ministers to fulfil their legal duty to cut pollution in “the shortest time possible”. The new case argues the
government is still failing to do this."

- Damian Carrington
The UK faces a second legal challenge on its plans for reducing air pollution in the capital.
26 May 2016

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/ ... t_b-gdneco" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Sadiq Khan is Labour.
Good man.

I get the feeling it's going to be Khan's highlighting of Johnson's legacy as mayor that'll tarnish brand boris, not the outcome of Cameron's referendum.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Fri 27 May, 2016 3:53 pm

A few "forensic audits" wouldn't be a bad idea.

Buses.
Bike hire.
Dangelway.

for starters.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 27 May, 2016 3:57 pm

FWIW trains were a freedom pass to us,we were lucky living in the exact middle of England and a network all the way to Aberdeen ,Penzance,Norwich Liverpool ,without changing(which is a pain in the whatsit,an added stress you didn't need with luggage and a w/c-you should get help and usually did but sometimes the message didn't get through,and/or in little stations no-one available).We tended to keep to large stations and/or ones we knew,we were on first name terms with many which also helps.