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Wonder if it'd be too much to hope for, that in the light of this terrible event, Cameron actually reflects on the way he has demonised the Labour Party and its MPs? Plus the way he's been all too content to go along with divide and rule policies?
Its a nice thought, and I can maybe believe that what has happened genuinely shocked him.
A depressing number of press pundits are circling the wagons of denial, though.......
Wonder if it'd be too much to hope for, that in the light of this terrible event, Cameron actually reflects on the way he has demonised the Labour Party and its MPs? Plus the way he's been all too content to go along with divide and rule policies?
That's far too much to hope for. He'll revert. He always does.
You're right.
It seems as if his default setting is the sort of complacent and unreflective arrogance that public school seems to encourage. Sometimes it's as if he's been trying - for example, the now laughable assertion that politics shouldn't be so 'Punch and Judy'. However that might have been because he was still under the spell of Steve Hilton at that point. I suspect Cameron had a bit of man crush on Hilton.
Wonder if it'd be too much to hope for, that in the light of this terrible event, Cameron actually reflects on the way he has demonised the Labour Party and its MPs? Plus the way he's been all too content to go along with divide and rule policies?
Its a nice thought, and I can maybe believe that what has happened genuinely shocked him.
A depressing number of press pundits are circling the wagons of denial, though.......
I think their denial is not unrelated to being unable to face their own culpability. They've been stoking up the xenophobia. It's too easy for them to stick their fingers in their ears and to go 'la la la' (= he's a weirdo loner! - he's mentally ill! - nothing to do with the stuff we churn out guv!)
nickyinnorfolk wrote:
Wonder if it'd be too much to hope for, that in the light of this terrible event, Cameron actually reflects on the way he has demonised the Labour Party and its MPs? Plus the way he's been all too content to go along with divide and rule policies?
Its a nice thought, and I can maybe believe that what has happened genuinely shocked him.
A depressing number of press pundits are circling the wagons of denial, though.......
I think their denial is not unrelated to being unable to face their own culpability. They've been stoking up the xenophobia. It's too easy for them to stick their fingers in their ears and to go 'la la la' (= he's a weirdo loner! - he's mentally ill! - nothing to do with the stuff we churn out guv!)
I'm wondering how they - apart from Mensch - are going to spin Mair's response when asked his name?
We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office. – Aesop
AnatolyKasparov wrote:Its a nice thought, and I can maybe believe that what has happened genuinely shocked him.
A depressing number of press pundits are circling the wagons of denial, though.......
I think their denial is not unrelated to being unable to face their own culpability. They've been stoking up the xenophobia. It's too easy for them to stick their fingers in their ears and to go 'la la la' (= he's a weirdo loner! - he's mentally ill! - nothing to do with the stuff we churn out guv!)
I'm wondering how they - apart from Mensch - are going to spin Mair's response when asked his name?
No one can spin or alter the fact this was a political assassination of a Labour party MP.
Following on from the above, a prime example is the execrable "this is all the fault of nasty people on social media, nothing to do with US" offering by Simon Jenkins.
New details about Cox’s killing were also released by the police.
They said she was attacked as she arrived for her constituency surgery on Thursday – not after, as was previously thought.
nickyinnorfolk wrote:
Wonder if it'd be too much to hope for, that in the light of this terrible event, Cameron actually reflects on the way he has demonised the Labour Party and its MPs? Plus the way he's been all too content to go along with divide and rule policies?
Its a nice thought, and I can maybe believe that what has happened genuinely shocked him.
A depressing number of press pundits are circling the wagons of denial, though.......
I think their denial is not unrelated to being unable to face their own culpability. They've been stoking up the xenophobia. It's too easy for them to stick their fingers in their ears and to go 'la la la' (= he's a weirdo loner! - he's mentally ill! - nothing to do with the stuff we churn out guv!)
I suspect that all through his life when he's found himself in a situation where he could be held responsible for his actions, money and influence has come to his rescue.
It doesn't make for a good leader.
We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office. – Aesop
AnatolyKasparov wrote:Following on from the above, a prime example is the execrable "this is all the fault of nasty people on social media, nothing to do with US" offering by Simon Jenkins.
Jenkins is a total arse. He's for Brexit as well, which no doubt colours his argument.
AnatolyKasparov wrote:Following on from the above, a prime example is the execrable "this is all the fault of nasty people on social media, nothing to do with US" offering by Simon Jenkins.
Unmitigated bollocks from one of Murdoch's longest serving apologists.
AnatolyKasparov wrote:Following on from the above, a prime example is the execrable "this is all the fault of nasty people on social media, nothing to do with US" offering by Simon Jenkins.
Jenkins is a total arse. He's for Brexit as well, which no doubt colours his argument.
I wonder how many people have changed the way they were going to vote, or owing to yesterdays murder have finally made up their minds? There have been some on Twitter who say they've come down on the side of Remain.
We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office. – Aesop
RogerOThornhill wrote:re the above, I would have thought that various paedophile trials over the years - including one where I knew the perpetrator really well in my youth - would have told everyone that not everything about a person is known by friends, neighbours, even family. People have sides that that they keep well hidden and don't want their nearest and dearest to know about.
If those around him are casually racist, or worse, they may not even think there is anything unusual in his views, or that to hold them is not 'normal'.
Hearing so many ordinary people vox popped for tv and radio echo his views about 'freedom' & immigration, barring extreme violence, such ideas seem almost mainstream now.
Last edited by yahyah on Sat 18 Jun, 2016 2:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
citizenJA wrote:I'm going to stay off the computer today.
Thank you all for being here.
love,
cJA
Enjoy your day.
We've just come back from a couple of hours walking near the coast.
A reminder of how lovely and normal most of life is. People walking their dogs, cycling, saying hello to strangers, even a little girl who told me she had been looking for fairies.
I cleared most of my head while out, but there is still a little niggle somewhere in it.
It's something about Labour, or other left party politicians and supporters, now being considered a target in the battle these right wingers are waging to 'get their country back'.
Anders Brevik started it in Norway, targeting Labour youth and blaming them for supporting immigrants.
Have always thought we are too sensible for such things, Mosley didn't manage to really get a grip on voters, but in these odd times we are living in ? The constant drip drip of calling people like us 'traitors' who deserve to hang (a frequent chant on Cif recently, until the posts were moderated) is bound to unhinge any number of aggressive, brainless, morality-poor individuals.
The thing that really bothers me is - what if it really *is* Brexit, and then the people investing such unrealistic hopes in it are (inevitably) disappointed?
The campaign to keep the UK in the European Union has a clear lead with just days to go before the vote, according to a new poll.
The exclusive UK-wide BMG telephone poll for The Herald found Remain ahead by almost 7 points.
The results show that ‘shy Remainers’, similar to the 'shy Nos' who were crucial to the outcome of 2014’s independence vote, could help keep the UK in the EU.
yahyah wrote:I cleared most of my head while out, but there is still a little niggle somewhere in it.
It's something about Labour, or other left party politicians and supporters, now being considered a target in the battle these right wingers are waging to 'get their country back'.
Anders Brevik started it in Norway, targeting Labour youth and blaming them for supporting immigrants.
Have always thought we are too sensible for such things, Mosley didn't manage to really get a grip on voters, but in these odd times we are living in ? The constant drip drip of calling people like us 'traitors' who deserve to hang (a frequent chant on Cif recently, until the posts were moderated) is bound to unhinge any number of aggressive, brainless, morality-poor individuals.
There were violent demonstrations against Mosley in the East End of London. Working class against the right wing, many of whom were from the upper classes.
WW2 put paid to the right wing for a while, but it's looking as if they need sorting out again
We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office. – Aesop
Wonder if it'd be too much to hope for, that in the light of this terrible event, Cameron actually reflects on the way he has demonised the Labour Party and its MPs? Plus the way he's been all too content to go along with divide and rule policies?
If anyone was listening to the Radio 4 debate on 'the state of our democracy' in the wake of the murder of Jo Cox ... panel of Peter Oborne, Max Hastings, Polly Toynbee and Claire Fox ... you could be forgiven for thinking the lack of respect shown to politicians is all the fault of the public - and very little down to the behaviour of politicians. Indeed one of the callers to the following programme made that point ... that perhaps politicians should reflect more and change the way they address each other and the public.
Found myself more in agreement with Oborne and Claire Fox (surprisingly in the case of the latter) than the others. But no one really brought up the point you make above. Although Claire Fox did make some very good points about the way politicians and the media often assume a lot of voters are idiots and talk down to them - or ridicule them - or simply deny them a voice and chance to argue.
I still find myself being a bit shocked by the Jamie Reed MP tweet I saw a week or so ago saying something like 'You're lying. You are a liar' to someone who for the life of me I couldn't see how they had provoked such a response. I just don't think elected representatives should be saying things like that. Even if the person had tweeted something very wrong etc - better to say it wasn't true and state the fact. Then block or stop responding.
Nigel Farage and his nationalist UK Independence Party, or UKIP, has done its best to whip up fears. UKIP has sought to distance itself from fascist parties like the B.N.P. But its rhetoric carefully manipulates people’s fears of immigration, while the party poses as the defender of ordinary people abandoned by an out-of-touch elite.
Steve Turner @SteveT_Unite 1h1 hour ago
Port of Dover now blockaded following refusal to allow aid #ConvoytoCalais through... Direct action for refugees!!
Steve Turner @SteveT_Unite 1h1 hour ago
Port of Dover now blockaded following refusal to allow aid #ConvoytoCalais through... Direct action for refugees!!
What's that all about?
This -
French authorities stop aid convoy at Dover (BBC News website)
Facebook post ; ( circulating on Twitter for some reason)
I have been on facebook for quite a while but I have never actually posted an original message, only replied to other people's (indeed, this started as a reply to a posting by Iain Smith). So this is a first. I am driven to it by the prospect of a Brexit victory on June 23.
The referendum started out as a tactic to keep one wing of the Conservative Party quiet during an election campaign. It didn’t bother me much. However, it has since become something else. I don't think the arguments for and against membership of the EU are really what's at issue, or not only what's at issue. The EU debate is also a proxy for something else.
On one side are two deeply disaffected groups. The first are mostly working class, they have yet to recover the ground they lost after the economic crash of 2008, they see their wages and opportunities undermined by immigrants and in the EU they have found someone or something to blame. Middle-class though I am, I have quite a significant acquaintanceship with members of this group and we have discussed the EU. The subject is impossible to avoid. They are not racist, they are mostly liberally inclined but they feel, probably rightly, that they are being penalised for other peoples' (bankers, politicians, EU bureaucrats) ambitions.
The second group probably comprises an equal mix of the working class and middle class (this is a guess on my part) and they are moderately-to-deeply reactionary, hate/distrust the modern world, want to return to the "good old days", regard all foreigners with suspicion etc etc. In the EU debate they have at last found a cause about which they can be outspoken and passionate, with leaders at last able to speak up on their behalf (Gove, Farage, Johnson et al). I have many acquaintances in this group as well. My sympathy for them is limited although I think I understand their sense of loss.
These two groups, animated by a mix of grievance and fear, are ranged together on the Brexit side. (I realise there are other kinds of Brexiteers, driven by principle not by grievance, but they appear to be small in number - again, a guess on my part. Every Brixiteer I know swears they are motivated by principle but all, in my experience thus far, fit into groups one or two.)
On the other side is the third group, mostly (but not entirely) middle-class, who have pretty much recovered the ground lost in 2008 and who face the future with measured optimism. They work in industries that depend on global markets and they generally see the EU as an opportunity rather than a threat. They are socially liberal and they approve of the liberalising drift of EU legislation (workers’ rights etc). They have little in common with the first group and certainly do not share its pain or its anxiety. They abhor the second group (some of them might even find their own parents in its ranks).
This third group contains some EU enthusiasts but I suspect not too many. Most realise that the EU is in a mess (the referendum itself is proof of that, but there is also the EU's lamentable response to the refugee crisis, the Greek debacle, youth unemployment and the continued fudge over the legitimacy of the EU institutions). They did not seek the referendum and would rather it was not taking place. They have been drawn into the debate on the Remain side because they are appalled by the prospect of a Brexit victory, not just for what it would mean for our EU membership but, more importantly, for what it would mean for our vision of the UK. I am in this third group.
I did not want the referendum. We have been bounced into making a yes/no decision, as if we were all inevitably either or one side or the other. We are not. But I am drawn in because I really, really do not want the tenor of political discourse in this country to be dictated by xenophobes, Little Englanders, nostalgics and populists like Boris Johnson. I had reason to be in South Africa in the 1970s, at the height of apartheid, and I came to the conclusion that the dominant culture in South Africa was indistinguishable from the cultural and ideological bias of the then Sunday Express: ignorant, entitled, hate-filled, resentful, awash with the false consciousness of victimhood and quick to find scapegoats. I do not want the social progress we have made in my lifetime - the truly astonishing achievement of successive Tory and Labour governments from Attlee to Blair - undone by resentful reactionaries nursing a false sense of grievance. The good old days were not good. I was there. The present day is so much better. Those of you who are black, gay, female, disabled or otherwise socially unprivileged will have special reason to understand what I am saying, but actually everyone has benefited.
Of course, not everyone has benefited equally and there is a long, long way still to go, but Brexit in the UK, just like Trump in the USA, threatens to unravel it all. Really, it does. What do you think will happen after a Brexit victory? Do you think the rightward drift in our domestic politics will come to a halt, appetites sated? Not a bit of it. It will get worse. And worse.
For those minded to vote for Brexit, let me make some further observations. An out vote will likely mean ten years or more of legislation to undo the legislation of the last four decades. The referendum is not a magic wand: vote out and suddenly we are free. Our membership of the EU is embedded in a web of legislation. Voting out and not undoing that legislation is not Brexit. Yet each piece of legislation will be contested, not in Europe but within the UK. I was on the train to Bath last weekend and there were a few Vote Out hoardings in farmers’ fields. Will those farmers who vote out be happy to see their subsidies taken away? (EU subsidies account for 55% of farm incomes in the UK.) Or isn’t it more likely that, having voted out, they will then argue tooth and nail for their subsidies to remain, whether the bill is paid by the EU or the British taxpayer? Leaving the Common Agricultural Policy only makes sense if we then open the door (ie remove the trade barriers) to cheap food from the rest of the world. Does anyone think that the National Farmers' Union would let that happen? Seriously? Won’t every interest group argue likewise for the retention of their protected status? Where will we end up: with half our EU-inspired laws unchanged and the rest constrained either by special interests or by the continuing need to conform to the regulations of the trading bloc we have just decided to leave, the trading bloc upon which we still depend but in which we no longer have a vote? What kind of Brexit is that?
Talking of voting, my Brexit friends are incensed that, in a club of 28 members, the UK doesn't always get its way. The EU has two forums where votes are taken: the European Parliament and the Council of Ministers. The Parliament, which as we all know is constitutionally weak and in which the leading British party is the anti-EU UKIP (with 24 seats, followed by Labour with 20 and the Conservatives with 19), tries to reach decisions by consensus, so that most of the time the UK is accommodated without a vote. But sometimes it does vote. Despite UKIP’s endless obstruction and opposition, the UK is actually on the “winning side” in those Parliamentary votes 71% of the time. The Council of Ministers, in which the EU governments are represented, is far more powerful, but, like the Parliament, it tries to arrive at decisions by consensus. In the period 2004 to 2009, the UK was on the “losing side” in 2.6% of the votes taken and in the period 2009 to 2015 it was on the “losing side” in 12.3% of the votes taken. In other words, the UK was on the “winning side” in 97.4% and 86.7% of the votes taken in those periods. (It is at least arguable that the increase in the UK’s “loss” record in the more recent period reflects the greater intransigence of the UK since the accession of a Conservative-led administration.)
And while we are on the subject of how the EU works, note that there are 55,000 civil servants in Brussels looking after the interests of 508 million people. This compares with 400,000 civil servants in Whitehall and the 150,000 doctors, 380,000 nurses, 156,000 technicians and 38,000 managers in the NHS. The UK’s “share” of the EU’s bureaucratic burden is about 6,500 civil servants. Even if there were no benefits, the cost of EU membership would be negligible (about 0.5% of GDP). But, of course, there are substantial benefits.
As to sovereignty, I would urge Brexiteers to take off their nostalgia-tinted glasses and get real. Our government spends just under half our GDP on public services. That clearly gives the government real executive power. Similarly, our legislature makes the laws that tell us how we can behave. That, too, is real power. But neither the government nor the legislature really determines our direction or speed of travel. That is decided by the economy, over which the legislature and the government have very little power. The economy is determined by decisions made by big corporations and the capital markets. No matter where they are based, the big corporations and the capital markets really have no nationality. Years ago, the English counties had the power to impose their own excise duties (hence all the smugglers’ tales), but the inexorable logic of economic development and the emergence of a fully national economy rendered those powers redundant. So it is today, at a higher level. We really do live in a global economy, as any survey of the objects in your house (food, fridge, computer, television, carpets etc) will confirm. Frankly, our lives are determined as much by decisions made by corporate executives and investment fund managers as they are by politicians or civil servants. Will Brexit make that position better? No. On the contrary, it will make it worse, for it will remove us from the protection, limited though it is, of the largest trading bloc in the world, the EU. Meaningful sovereignty at the national level is simply not on the agenda. It really isn't, not for anyone. Those days are gone.
The story is the same in foreign policy. We are not big enough to stand on our own. If we are not part of the EU we will become the poodle of the USA. This is not what the Brexiteers have in mind, of course, but it will be the outcome if the out vote prevails. If you want the UK to be weaker, by all means vote out. It is not, I think, what you intend.
Finally, what happens if the majority in the UK vote out but the majority in Scotland vote in (as it appears they will)? Or, vice versa: the majority in the UK vote in but the majority in England vote out? Think about it. These are real possibilities. Either outcome spells the end of the UK as we know it. In the first case, the Scots will rightly demand another referendum on independence. In the second, the English will be outraged that their will has been thwarted by the Scots (and possibly the Welsh). The English will not do the obvious thing and create their own Parliament, for that really would bring the curtain down on the UK (an inevitability in my view). No, they will contest the outcome, over and over and over, in the hope that eventually they will get what they want. They won’t.
These are arguments about the merits or otherwise of Brexit, but, as I said at the outset, I don’t think what is really at issue here is the EU. What is at issue is our view of Britain. Having said that I am a reluctant participant in a debate that I would rather wasn’t happening, I have to acknowledge that the questions it has raised really do need answers. The disaffection of the first group I described above needs to be addressed. As yet, I do not see strong leadership in either party offering to take on that responsibility. Cameron is standing down, so the Tories have a shadow for a leader, and anyway everything they have done since 2010 has had the effect of alienating the working class still further. And Corbyn is so half-hearted he might as well be signalling in semaphore. If we do remain, somebody has to get a grip on the vast gulf that has opened up between the politicians and the people, particularly the working class. I expect the Labour Party to fill this vacuum – historically, that’s its job - but it looks to me that it might be ten years before they are ready for the challenge. Those ten years will be fraught with the danger of a further drift to the right, a drift of which we have had plenty of warning in the form of the UKIP vote. Hence, even if Remain wins, it is not the end of the matter: it is the beginning of a long haul back to political legitimacy, in local government, in the British nations and regions, in the UK and in the EU. This is not an easy sell, of course. Much easier to sell the “let's get our country back” simplicities of Brexit.
And I should say a word in favour of the EU. Sure, it has the aspect of a capitalist club currently wedded to a neo-liberal model of economic development. But it is also the most successful experiment ever attempted to forge collaboration between nations (nations that had been at each others' throats for a thousand years) and it has a very powerful social-democratic culture. For all its faults, I support it because I can distinguish between the politics of tomorrow (what I would like for my great-grandchildren) and the politics of today (what we can have in the meantime).
The referendum, which started as a nothing issue for me, has become a fundamental choice about what kind of Britain we want and what kind of agenda we will follow in the years to come. I am adamantly against Brexit. I am for Remain. I hope you are too.
Jo Cox murder suspect 'told police he was political activist'
Thomas Mair allegedly said ‘this is for Britain’ and ‘keep Britain independent’ as he stabbed and shot MP, court hears
This third group contains some EU enthusiasts but I suspect not too many. Most realise that the EU is in a mess (the referendum itself is proof of that, but there is also the EU's lamentable response to the refugee crisis, the Greek debacle, youth unemployment and the continued fudge over the legitimacy of the EU institutions). They did not seek the referendum and would rather it was not taking place. They have been drawn into the debate on the Remain side because they are appalled by the prospect of a Brexit victory, not just for what it would mean for our EU membership but, more importantly, for what it would mean for our vision of the UK. I am in this third group.
Describes me exactly. Except I'm not middle class.
About the clearest and most sensible run down I've read so far....
Amazingly after all I've read and tried to digest, my original reason to go for Remain is still uppermost. I don't like the EU, but I do not want to give Gove, Johnson, IDS, and Farage my approval.
We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office. – Aesop
stefanstern Retweeted
Ros Wynne-Jones @roswynnejones 20m20 minutes ago
Today I have expressed my rage and despair in the correct British way, by angry gardening
stefanstern Retweeted
Ros Wynne-Jones @roswynnejones 20m20 minutes ago
Today I have expressed my rage and despair in the correct British way, by angry gardening
Excellent woman.
I hope she didn't moan and get rough with her plants though. I always speak encouragingly to mine. At worst they get gently chided.
We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office. – Aesop
I have various garden ornaments,all named and they have their own personalities,I talk to them everyday.All for Remain apart from "Tarquin the Lawn Mowing Torquoise Tortoise",who is still undecided.
Marine Le Pen: do not speculate about Jo Cox's killing (Guardian)
So you've all been told. From the same article -
In a speech at the meeting, Le Pen said support for Brexit in the UK was one sign of a “new air” of patriotism sweeping Europe in what she called a “springtime of the people”.(my emphasis)
ohsocynical wrote:Just seen my son. He mentioned about Jo Cox.
I said you are going to vote? He said yes. I'm voting to leave .... Bugger! I wish I hadn't asked.
HindleA wrote:I have various garden ornaments,all named and they have their own personalities,I talk to them everyday.All for Remain apart from "Tarquin the Lawn Mowing Torquoise Tortoise",who is still undecided.
Saw a clip of an injured tortoise who'd injured its leg and couldn't walk. Its owner super glued a lego undercarriage with wheels to the bottom of his shell. You should see him go!
You might tell that to Tarquin and that was funded by the EU. That should make his mind up.
We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office. – Aesop
