Saturday 18 and Sunday 19 June

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 18 Jun, 2016 5:56 pm

Peter Jukes@peterjukes 4h
If the UKippers, Britain First and their enablers win next week they will consider it a license for xenophobia. My country will be gone.

I hope he is exaggerating. Not entirely certain he is though.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 18 Jun, 2016 5:59 pm

& let's hope Rentoul is wrong too.

''If Leave wins on Thursday, stand by for Boris to call an early election''.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/if- ... 88151.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 18 Jun, 2016 6:13 pm

Martin Shipton, chief reporter of the Western Mail:
''Jo Cox was the antithesis of a traitor. She represented the best of British values. I shall be thinking of her when I vote next Thursday''.

TR'sGhost · Post by **TR'sGhost** » Sat 18 Jun, 2016 6:17 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/ ... lenged-now" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Maybe a penny is starting to drop at long last.

This time last week that article would be open to comments, with the usual suspects ranting their usual vitriol.

In fact not many current articles have been open to comments at all since lunchtime on Thursday.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 18 Jun, 2016 6:22 pm

Amongst the comments under the Guardian's editorial there were a few from the usual suspects.
'What did Jo Cox ever do for 'us' ?' asked a couple of them. The meaning of us was obvious. One complained that she had worked in overseas aid.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 18 Jun, 2016 6:26 pm

Latest Betfair probability % has leaned back to Remain at 66% chance of winning, Leave at 34%.

The Independent on Sunday has a poll tonight showing how people feel about the different outcomes.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 18 Jun, 2016 6:28 pm

Night all. Have just realised I should have started prepping the supper.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 18 Jun, 2016 6:30 pm

Senior Conservatives in spotlight over speeches to ‘vile’ rightwing fringe group
Paterson and Fox spoke at London Swinton Circle, despite it discussing mass deportation and linking rape to immigration
Liam Fox speaks at the Conservative party conference in 2010
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... urn false;

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Sat 18 Jun, 2016 7:04 pm

I think remain will win on Friday now, and probably by a big margin.I think the events of this week will make Britain take a big step back now they have seen where the hate is leading.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 18 Jun, 2016 7:15 pm

Britain Elects ‏@britainelects 30m30 minutes ago
EU referendum poll:

Remain: 44% (-)
Leave: 44% (+2)

(via Opinium, online / 14 - 17 Jun)

Post by **refitman** » Sat 18 Jun, 2016 7:27 pm

Temulkar wrote:I think remain will win on Friday now, and probably by a big margin.I think the events of this week will make Britain take a big step back now they have seen where the hate is leading.

I hope you're right.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 18 Jun, 2016 7:29 pm

refitman wrote:
Temulkar wrote:I think remain will win on Friday now, and probably by a big margin.I think the events of this week will make Britain take a big step back now they have seen where the hate is leading.
I hope you're right.

Me too

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Sat 18 Jun, 2016 7:34 pm

ohsocynical wrote:Britain Elects ‏@britainelects 30m30 minutes ago
EU referendum poll:

Remain: 44% (-)
Leave: 44% (+2)

(via Opinium, online / 14 - 17 Jun)

Interesting, online poll, which would normally tend to favour out.

This is going to be very close and it will probably come down to turnout. This begs the question why didn't they set a threshold, trashing our economy on a couple of percentage points is bonkers. A 60/40 really should be the minumum for this sort of thing.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 18 Jun, 2016 7:46 pm

Temulkar wrote:I think remain will win on Friday now, and probably by a big margin.I think the events of this week will make Britain take a big step back now they have seen where the hate is leading.

I hope you're right. Because, otherwise, I will take it as an indication that people actually like (or at least don't care about) where the hate is leading.

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Sat 18 Jun, 2016 7:47 pm

yahyah wrote:& let's hope Rentoul is wrong too.

''If Leave wins on Thursday, stand by for Boris to call an early election''.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/if- ... 88151.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'm not sure how that would come about. I presume he would somehow have to invoke the 1922 committee to release the names of the Tories who want to get rid of him and activate a no confidence vote. ?

mbc1955 · Post by **mbc1955** » Sat 18 Jun, 2016 7:49 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
refitman wrote:
Temulkar wrote:I think remain will win on Friday now, and probably by a big margin.I think the events of this week will make Britain take a big step back now they have seen where the hate is leading.
I hope you're right.
Me too

Me three, but I'm not hedging my bets in any way. I still think it will be close, too close to be in any way truly decisive, and if it is Remain, I'm going to look at the result with misery that it took a sacrifice of that kind to secure it.

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Sat 18 Jun, 2016 7:50 pm

I can see it now, IDS back as deputy PM, Gove as chancellor, Lord Farage as Home Sec.

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Sat 18 Jun, 2016 7:51 pm

https://mobile.twitter.com/shelleysilas" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Swastikas placed on cars near a Jewish care home in London.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sat 18 Jun, 2016 7:53 pm

PorFavor wrote:
Temulkar wrote:I think remain will win on Friday now, and probably by a big margin.I think the events of this week will make Britain take a big step back now they have seen where the hate is leading.

I hope you're right. Because, otherwise, I will take it as an indication that people actually like (or at least don't care about) where the hate is leading.

Please don't. There are many reasons why people may want to vote Leave.

frightful_oik · Post by **frightful_oik** » Sat 18 Jun, 2016 7:54 pm

TobyLatimer wrote:
yahyah wrote:& let's hope Rentoul is wrong too.

''If Leave wins on Thursday, stand by for Boris to call an early election''.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/if- ... 88151.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I'm not sure how that would come about. I presume he would somehow have to invoke the 1922 committee to release the names of the Tories who want to get rid of him and activate a no confidence vote. ?

How? First Boris has to become PM. Then he has to get a two thirds majority to call an election or repeal the fixed term parliament act. Neither of those is even remotely likely.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 18 Jun, 2016 7:54 pm

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:Britain Elects ‏@britainelects 30m30 minutes ago
EU referendum poll:

Remain: 44% (-)
Leave: 44% (+2)

(via Opinium, online / 14 - 17 Jun)
Interesting, online poll, which would normally tend to favour out.

This is going to be very close and it will probably come down to turnout. This begs the question why didn't they set a threshold, trashing our economy on a couple of percentage points is bonkers. A 60/40 really should be the minumum for this sort of thing.

There probably wasn't enough room on the back of the fag packet to work that one out.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 18 Jun, 2016 7:56 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
PorFavor wrote:
Temulkar wrote:I think remain will win on Friday now, and probably by a big margin.I think the events of this week will make Britain take a big step back now they have seen where the hate is leading.

I hope you're right. Because, otherwise, I will take it as an indication that people actually like (or at least don't care about) where the hate is leading.
Please don't. There are many reasons why people may want to vote Leave.

I appreciate and accept that, but it also has to be understood that many were genuinely terrified of a "leave" vote even before Thursday.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 18 Jun, 2016 7:57 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
PorFavor wrote:
Temulkar wrote:I think remain will win on Friday now, and probably by a big margin.I think the events of this week will make Britain take a big step back now they have seen where the hate is leading.

I hope you're right. Because, otherwise, I will take it as an indication that people actually like (or at least don't care about) where the hate is leading.
Please don't. There are many reasons why people may want to vote Leave.

Sorry - that was thoughtless and a bit broad brush of me.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sat 18 Jun, 2016 8:05 pm

PorFavor wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:
PorFavor wrote:
I hope you're right. Because, otherwise, I will take it as an indication that people actually like (or at least don't care about) where the hate is leading.
Please don't. There are many reasons why people may want to vote Leave.
Sorry - that was thoughtless and a bit broad brush of me.

Thank you PF. I've been finding FTN very very 'broadbrush' today. I respect that you mostly have made up your minds for Remain - and I certainly don't disparage anybody for taking that point of view. I'm living with someone who is very determinedly voting Out and would like him not to be casually disparaged. In the same way that there is talk of people being casually racist. I am still undecided. I would really like there to be more respect for difference and less stereotyping on every front. It's that that makes it feel vile for me.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sat 18 Jun, 2016 8:18 pm

As an add on - sorry I'm to and froing between the kitchen and here - something Max Hastings said today really struck home. He said that he thought Cameron putting a date / year on his referendum promise was a bad mistake - we are now having a referendum at a time when the EU is in great flux and there is no real indication of what direction it is going in. People are being asked to make up their minds about it when they don't know what it could be in 3 or 5 years.

Editing to add: Hastings is for Remain btw. But he managed to put across some really thoughtful and balanced points about the EU and the way the debate has been framed and how the public have been treated.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 18 Jun, 2016 8:42 pm

HindleA wrote:I have various garden ornaments,all named and they have their own personalities,I talk to them everyday.All for Remain apart from "Tarquin the Lawn Mowing Torquoise Tortoise",who is still undecided.

I am sorry to report I have no lawn mowing tortoise of any colour - or of any political persuasion.

I feel cheated.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 18 Jun, 2016 8:45 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:
HindleA wrote:I have various garden ornaments,all named and they have their own personalities,I talk to them everyday.All for Remain apart from "Tarquin the Lawn Mowing Torquoise Tortoise",who is still undecided.
I am sorry to report I have no lawn mowing tortoise of any colour - or of any political persuasion.

I feel cheated.

And I feel bitterly disappointed and let down. You're not what I took you to be.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 18 Jun, 2016 8:46 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:As an add on - sorry I'm to and froing between the kitchen and here - something Max Hastings said today really struck home. He said that he thought Cameron putting a date / year on his referendum promise was a bad mistake - we are now having a referendum at a time when the EU is in great flux and there is no real indication of what direction it is going in. People are being asked to make up their minds about it when they don't know what it could be in 3 or 5 years.

Editing to add: Hastings is for Remain btw. But he managed to put across some really thoughtful and balanced points about the EU and the way the debate has been framed and how the public have been treated.

Toby's post from a Facebook page earlier today was very good. Explanatory but not preachy.
Explained a few things I was hazy on, the reason why many will be voting Brexit and why those who don't like the EU, will be voting Remain.

And don't know if you saw my earlier post but my son - and I presume his wife - will be voting Leave. Another gut instinct voter I suspect, because he certainly doesn't appear to have gone into it that deeply, and I fear has actually swallowed some of the promises that Leave have been throwing around. He's normally a very caring person so I hope it doesn't backfire on him.

You can't win them all and it's his future. I'll be long gone if Toby's piece is correct ... And I love him dearly, so I don't think I'll broach it any more.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 18 Jun, 2016 8:48 pm

PorFavor wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote:
HindleA wrote:I have various garden ornaments,all named and they have their own personalities,I talk to them everyday.All for Remain apart from "Tarquin the Lawn Mowing Torquoise Tortoise",who is still undecided.
I am sorry to report I have no lawn mowing tortoise of any colour - or of any political persuasion.

I feel cheated.
And I feel bitterly disappointed and let down. You're not what I took you to be.

I've got a stone cherub with its head missing. Does that help?

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 18 Jun, 2016 8:50 pm

PorFavor wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote:
HindleA wrote:I have various garden ornaments,all named and they have their own personalities,I talk to them everyday.All for Remain apart from "Tarquin the Lawn Mowing Torquoise Tortoise",who is still undecided.
I am sorry to report I have no lawn mowing tortoise of any colour - or of any political persuasion.

I feel cheated.
And I feel bitterly disappointed and let down. You're not what I took you to be.

(hanging head in shame emoticon)

My only defence is that I have no lawn.
Still not good enough though. I realise that now.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Sat 18 Jun, 2016 8:50 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:As an add on - sorry I'm to and froing between the kitchen and here - something Max Hastings said today really struck home. He said that he thought Cameron putting a date / year on his referendum promise was a bad mistake - we are now having a referendum at a time when the EU is in great flux and there is no real indication of what direction it is going in. People are being asked to make up their minds about it when they don't know what it could be in 3 or 5 years.

Editing to add: Hastings is for Remain btw. But he managed to put across some really thoughtful and balanced points about the EU and the way the debate has been framed and how the public have been treated.

I think the nature of the modern world is such that there would never be a good time, the EU is struggling with the impact of regional wars on the border and at least two member countries trying to reverse the rule of law and slide to dictatorship. Meanwhile one big question - Turkey - is resolving itself by trampling over eligability criteria, I doubt it will be a member in my lifetime.

I draw a distinction between the racists running the Leave campaign (UKIP) and those co-opting racism to win the vote (Gove, Johnson and Vote Leave) and the voters. The argument it is all the immigrants fault, and the use of scare stories around Turkish terrorist Islamist immigrants are always going to be compelling to a significant segment of the population. It is hard to blame those who choose to believe immigration is the problem when they are repeatedly told it is.

What I object to is the economic argument where leave basically lie and smear experts such as the IFS. Then they make up fantasy stories saying the WTO rules will be wonderful and are the answer. In which case why don't Norway take them up, why do they pay for access to the EU market despite having no say. The answer of course is they know being outside the single market is ruinous for small countries near Europe.

I work for a large global company, I know how they think and how they invest. They won't invest in post Brexit Britain and if they are manufacturing (say cars) for the EU raw economics will dictate they will move all future production inside the single market. Gove and Johnson know this, they don't care and they won't tell leave voters the true cost of leaving. I find it hard to understand how we survive with maybe 70% of our already limited manufacturing gone for ever, they should be honest about the risks.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 18 Jun, 2016 8:53 pm

There is a photo on Twitter, allegedly showing Mair giving a Nazi salute. Genuine or not, I'm not going to re-Tweet it just in case. But if genuine it makes a total mockery of 'not political'.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 18 Jun, 2016 8:55 pm

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:As an add on - sorry I'm to and froing between the kitchen and here - something Max Hastings said today really struck home. He said that he thought Cameron putting a date / year on his referendum promise was a bad mistake - we are now having a referendum at a time when the EU is in great flux and there is no real indication of what direction it is going in. People are being asked to make up their minds about it when they don't know what it could be in 3 or 5 years.

Editing to add: Hastings is for Remain btw. But he managed to put across some really thoughtful and balanced points about the EU and the way the debate has been framed and how the public have been treated.
I think the nature of the modern world is such that there would never be a good time, the EU is struggling with the impact of regional wars on the border and at least two member countries trying to reverse the rule of law and slide to dictatorship. Meanwhile one big question - Turkey - is resolving itself by trampling over eligability criteria, I doubt it will be a member in my lifetime.

I draw a distinction between the racists running the Leave campaign (UKIP) and those co-opting racism to win the vote (Gove, Johnson and Vote Leave) and the voters. The argument it is all the immigrants fault, and the use of scare stories around Turkish terrorist Islamist immigrants are always going to be compelling to a significant segment of the population. It is hard to blame those who choose to believe immigration is the problem when they are repeatedly told it is.

What I object to is the economic argument where leave basically lie and smear experts such as the IFS. Then they make up fantasy stories saying the WTO rules will be wonderful and are the answer. In which case why don't Norway take them up, why do they pay for access to the EU market despite having no say. The answer of course is they know being outside the single market is ruinous for small countries near Europe.

I work for a large global company, I know how they think and how they invest. They won't invest in post Brexit Britain and if they are manufacturing (say cars) for the EU raw economics will dictate they will move all future production inside the single market. Gove and Johnson know this, they don't care and they won't tell leave voters the true cost of leaving. I find it hard to understand how we survive with maybe 70% of our already limited manufacturing gone for ever, they should be honest about the risks.

Good post. Thank you.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 18 Jun, 2016 9:00 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:
PorFavor wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote: I am sorry to report I have no lawn mowing tortoise of any colour - or of any political persuasion.

I feel cheated.
And I feel bitterly disappointed and let down. You're not what I took you to be.
(hanging head in shame emoticon)

My only defence is that I have no lawn.
Still not good enough though. I realise that now.

Not when someone has a grass cutting turquoise tortoise called Tarquin ...

TR'sGhost · Post by **TR'sGhost** » Sat 18 Jun, 2016 9:02 pm

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:Britain Elects ‏@britainelects 30m30 minutes ago
EU referendum poll:

Remain: 44% (-)
Leave: 44% (+2)

(via Opinium, online / 14 - 17 Jun)
Interesting, online poll, which would normally tend to favour out.

This is going to be very close and it will probably come down to turnout. This begs the question why didn't they set a threshold, trashing our economy on a couple of percentage points is bonkers. A 60/40 really should be the minumum for this sort of thing.

Because Farage & co. would have complained anything other than a bare majority decision is unfair, so it would not have served Cameron's short-term election purposes.

The polls remind me of what a friend who was an engineering industry factory convenor in the 1980s said. The industrial action or working conditions acceptance vote he always dreaded was one that went 48/52 either way because it meant whatever the decision was there'd be a great deal of resentment and division afterwards.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 18 Jun, 2016 9:04 pm

http://www.aljazeera.com/blogs/europe/2 ... 33645.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;?

It's the same feeling which enables the "Vote Leave" campaign to dismiss warnings from respected economists, academics and diplomats as to the costs of Brexit: all are contemptuously lumped together as "experts", apparently a term of abuse.

TR'sGhost · Post by **TR'sGhost** » Sat 18 Jun, 2016 9:07 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
PorFavor wrote:
Temulkar wrote:I think remain will win on Friday now, and probably by a big margin.I think the events of this week will make Britain take a big step back now they have seen where the hate is leading.

I hope you're right. Because, otherwise, I will take it as an indication that people actually like (or at least don't care about) where the hate is leading.
Please don't. There are many reasons why people may want to vote Leave.

Including a friend's son who says all his mates are voting "out" because the consequences will teach all the politicians a lesson and be a "laugh".

Son himself is voting "out" because, as he puts it himself, he's a "conspiracy theorist" so anything the "New World Order" wants he'll oppose. I did enquire how he knew the NWO wanted the UK in the EU, and had he ever considered that the "out" campaign are working for the NWO?

Result: one rather confused 28 year old.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 18 Jun, 2016 9:12 pm

His mates might find out it's not so much of a "laugh" when we end up with US style employment "laws".

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 18 Jun, 2016 9:13 pm

Oops - thanks for link-fixing Refitman.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 18 Jun, 2016 9:14 pm

Europe Elects ‏@EuropeElects 2h2 hours ago ישראל

UK: Today's poll of polls - including Opinium poll now. 6 point lead for #Leave (including DK, Jun 18).

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 18 Jun, 2016 9:22 pm

David Lammy wrote:http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... democracy?
This senseless killing cuts right to the very heart of the democracy that we have in this country – a democracy that we stand at risk of losing if our political discourse continues to descend into hatred. I fear that we are becoming a post-democratic nation, reverting to violence, intimidation and demonisation in order to communicate our differences of opinion.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 18 Jun, 2016 9:36 pm

It’s time to call the killing of Jo Cox what it is: 'an act of far-Right terrorism'

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06 ... um=twitter

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 18 Jun, 2016 9:39 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:
David Lammy wrote:http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... democracy?
This senseless killing cuts right to the very heart of the democracy that we have in this country – a democracy that we stand at risk of losing if our political discourse continues to descend into hatred. I fear that we are becoming a post-democratic nation, reverting to violence, intimidation and demonisation in order to communicate our differences of opinion.

We feared this when the Coalition got in, but it's been worse than I imagined. Tory's have heaped coal on the flames, and are still doing it.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Sat 18 Jun, 2016 9:58 pm

ohsocynical wrote:Europe Elects ‏@EuropeElects 2h2 hours ago ישראל

UK: Today's poll of polls - including Opinium poll now. 6 point lead for #Leave (including DK, Jun 18).

Poll of polls are rather dubious because of the time window. Taking the average of all polls over the same time period makes more sense. The last two have been small lead for remain and dead heat. The other stuff is much older.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 18 Jun, 2016 9:59 pm

About Johnson and the press.

By Martin Fletcher.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sat 18 Jun, 2016 10:05 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
It’s time to call the killing of Jo Cox what it is: 'an act of far-Right terrorism'

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06 ... um=twitter

I did promise myself that after I'd finished my thesis, I'd go and have a look at the scholarly opinions on the nature and definition of fascism.

The reason for that is that there's a good body of opinion that says that Nazism and fascism aren't left wing (as right wingers always claim) nor are they right wing (as is normally depicted) but as neither. An extreme middle if you like.

Remember that Oswald Mosely was first a Tory MP, then a Labour MP...and then founded the New Party being dissatisfied with both. There was even a party in the UK called Third Way which was mainly ex-National Front like Patrick Harrington.

Anyway, you can see why right wingers get all worked up with the idea of the far-right - it's as if people are saying "Well, they're on your side of the political spectrum"...except I'm not sure they're right. But neither are the tiresome "Nazis are left wing coz they have socialist in their name" and "look at the red in the Nazi flag and red = commies."

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 18 Jun, 2016 10:07 pm

Rat depiction of benefit claimants bestrewn in public areas,propaganda on TV adverts with stereotypical misportrayal,lles about fraud,encouragement of suspicion,all equally occurred under Labour.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sat 18 Jun, 2016 10:08 pm

Evening all

I do respect your feelings RR2 but I cannot envisage the aftermath of a Leave as anything but a disaster, especially after the tragedy of this week

There may be some really good reasons for leaving the EU, I know as I was wavering myself earlier in the campaign but that has completely changed now....Remain must win in my view or the UK is on a very dangerous path

If the EU doesn't reform and is in a bad place in 5-10 years then another referendum, or a manifesto pledge to withdraw, could be possible - leaving is absolutely final

I agree with Hastings that this is not the right time

I explain my reasons

Many of the reasons I have seen given for people voting Leave are due to decisions taking by the Government rather than the EU

It is being used to take a kick at the establishment without much concern for the consequences

The main one though is that a post-Leave UK will be one that would be dominated by the right-wingers who have lied, lied and lied again. A Leave will reward liars and moral accomplices to murder....the people who have created an atmosphere of fear and hatred (ably abetted by the Remain supporters of Cameron and Crosby as well unfortunately it has to be said)

The people voting Leave are not all racist or xenophobic, of course they are not, but their votes will be used in a way they did not intend it

And a final point...I also accept people can vote Leave but no matter who they are if it turns bad, either economically from a societal point of view, then I will happily blame the people who voted for it. They have been warned enough by the experts about the potential economic consequences, the lack of a coherent plan for an exit and they have also seen a glimpse into the twisted mind of UKIP with the 'Breaking Point' poster

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sat 18 Jun, 2016 10:21 pm

Britain Elects ‏@britainelects 15s16 seconds ago
EU referendum poll:
Remain: 44% (+2)
Leave: 43% (-1)
(via YouGov, online / 16 - 17 Jun)
Chgs. from 15 - 16 Jun

So 13$ still undecided?

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Sat 18 Jun, 2016 10:28 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:As an add on - sorry I'm to and froing between the kitchen and here - something Max Hastings said today really struck home. He said that he thought Cameron putting a date / year on his referendum promise was a bad mistake - we are now having a referendum at a time when the EU is in great flux and there is no real indication of what direction it is going in. People are being asked to make up their minds about it when they don't know what it could be in 3 or 5 years.

Editing to add: Hastings is for Remain btw. But he managed to put across some really thoughtful and balanced points about the EU and the way the debate has been framed and how the public have been treated.
Toby's post from a Facebook page earlier today was very good. Explanatory but not preachy.
Explained a few things I was hazy on, the reason why many will be voting Brexit and why those who don't like the EU, will be voting Remain.

And don't know if you saw my earlier post but my son - and I presume his wife - will be voting Leave. Another gut instinct voter I suspect, because he certainly doesn't appear to have gone into it that deeply, and I fear has actually swallowed some of the promises that Leave have been throwing around. He's normally a very caring person so I hope it doesn't backfire on him.

You can't win them all and it's his future. I'll be long gone if Toby's piece is correct ... And I love him dearly, so I don't think I'll broach it any more.

The original piece here ohso, some good comments underneath too x " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;