Saturday 18 and Sunday 19 June

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Sat 18 Jun, 2016 10:41 pm

This is what the EU is all about. A piece of pan european research.

http://www.thehorse.com/articles/37681/ ... n-handlers

I can confirm this, I had a horse actually communicate to me that they couldn't get to their water and would I bring them some.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sat 18 Jun, 2016 10:54 pm

Apparently Gove is promising that Brexit won't cause a recession.

Quite how, as a non-economist, (or even if he was an economist for that matter!), he can possibly do this is anybody's guess...

I saw a tweet that said that City traders had been told to stand by their desks at 4am to ensure they're ready for a meltdown should we vote for Brexit.

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Sat 18 Jun, 2016 11:15 pm

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Further to Roger's last sentence, this really is grim and as someone says in the responses "disturbing to the soul". But it's more instructive than Michael Gove.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sat 18 Jun, 2016 11:25 pm

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Sat 18 Jun, 2016 11:29 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:Apparently Gove is promising that Brexit won't cause a recession.

Quite how, as a non-economist, (or even if he was an economist for that matter!), he can possibly do this is anybody's guess...

I saw a tweet that said that City traders had been told to stand by their desks at 4am to ensure they're ready for a meltdown should we vote for Brexit.

Easy, he is a bullshit merchant of the highest order and he has no sense of morals or responsibility. I suspect he actually is a psychopath.

His behaviour is repulsive, as an engineer it is drilled into you never operate outside your competence and never dismiss a safety concern without peer reviewed evidence you are right.

If Remain wins, I hope the lesson Cameron draws from this is that Gove is utterly unfit to serve in any position in any government.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Sat 18 Jun, 2016 11:33 pm

NonOxCol wrote:

Further to Roger's last sentence, this really is grim and as someone says in the responses "disturbing to the soul". But it's more instructive than Michael Gove.

The city is one huge futures betting market. It doesn't do empathy, sympathy or ethics. That doesn't surprise me at all, I imagine Wall St bought armament stock the second Pearl Harbour was announced.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sat 18 Jun, 2016 11:41 pm

Tim Shipman ‏@ShippersUnbound 2m2 minutes ago
Ministers claim Stephen Crabb has leadership team ready to go: Ruth Davidson, Sajid Javid. Jeremy Wright, Jeremy Hunt

Nice to know where his priorities are, if so. And that's a big IF SO.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sat 18 Jun, 2016 11:43 pm

And that was preceded by:

Tim Shipman ‏@ShippersUnbound 7m7 minutes ago
Cabinet ministers calling for Theresa May to be a caretaker leader of Cameron falls this week. See Sunday Times

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Sat 18 Jun, 2016 11:54 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:

Easy, watching LeMans 24 hour race, one of the Ferrari teams has the lead driver listed as D Cameron. The mechanic is clearly on the radio.

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Sun 19 Jun, 2016 12:00 am

RobertSnozers wrote:
RogerOThornhill wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:
I did promise myself that after I'd finished my thesis, I'd go and have a look at the scholarly opinions on the nature and definition of fascism.

The reason for that is that there's a good body of opinion that says that Nazism and fascism aren't left wing (as right wingers always claim) nor are they right wing (as is normally depicted) but as neither. An extreme middle if you like.

Remember that Oswald Mosely was first a Tory MP, then a Labour MP...and then founded the New Party being dissatisfied with both. There was even a party in the UK called Third Way which was mainly ex-National Front like Patrick Harrington.

Anyway, you can see why right wingers get all worked up with the idea of the far-right - it's as if people are saying "Well, they're on your side of the political spectrum"...except I'm not sure they're right. But neither are the tiresome "Nazis are left wing coz they have socialist in their name" and "look at the red in the Nazi flag and red = commies."
Part of the problem is the difficulty in the binary depiction of right and left, when both actually incorporate a range of ideas that aren't necessarily mutually exclusive and are often on a continuum. E.g. Individualism/authoritarianism, free market/state control, nationalism/class struggle etc. I suspect part of the rightist depictions of Naziism as leftwing rely on the shifting economic consensus since WW2 - in the 1930s, even Tory governments accepted far more state intervention in industry than even Labour governments in the 1970s would be able to get away with, but looking back, out of context it makes Nazi economics look pretty lefty. The increasing consensus now is that Naziism/fascism was somewhere outside of the conventional left-right spectrum, but to my mind, much of the stuff that was important to Hitler was unquestionably rightwing - extreme nationalism, ethnic nationalism, dictatorship, militarism, imperialism, white supremacism etc etc. Just because Nazi economic policy wasn't taken from Friedman's playbook (which didn't exist at the time, obviously) doesn't mean they weren't rightwing.

If ever embroiled in this debate, I usually point out who supported whom in the Spanish Civil War. Often shuts up people who evidently knew nothing about it.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 19 Jun, 2016 1:13 am

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... se-funding" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Health chiefs warn of 'reckless’ cuts in student nurse funding
Public bodies representing nurses, doctors, GPs and patients, as well as more than 20 charities, warn of growing risk to patient care

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 19 Jun, 2016 1:16 am

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... to-reflect" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Will politicians use this time to swap poison for serious debate?
Andrew Rawnsley

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 19 Jun, 2016 1:20 am

EU referendum: ‘This is now a battle for an idea of Britain’
Will Hutton

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 19 Jun, 2016 1:59 am

"Liberty G.B." are going to contest the by-election in Batley and Spen.

TR'sGhost · Post by **TR'sGhost** » Sun 19 Jun, 2016 3:01 am

RogerOThornhill wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:
It’s time to call the killing of Jo Cox what it is: 'an act of far-Right terrorism'

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06 ... um=twitter
I did promise myself that after I'd finished my thesis, I'd go and have a look at the scholarly opinions on the nature and definition of fascism.

The reason for that is that there's a good body of opinion that says that Nazism and fascism aren't left wing (as right wingers always claim) nor are they right wing (as is normally depicted) but as neither. An extreme middle if you like.

Remember that Oswald Mosely was first a Tory MP, then a Labour MP...and then founded the New Party being dissatisfied with both. There was even a party in the UK called Third Way which was mainly ex-National Front like Patrick Harrington.

Anyway, you can see why right wingers get all worked up with the idea of the far-right - it's as if people are saying "Well, they're on your side of the political spectrum"...except I'm not sure they're right. But neither are the tiresome "Nazis are left wing coz they have socialist in their name" and "look at the red in the Nazi flag and red = commies."

I could write a thesis on defining fascism and the nature of the beast, In fact, I did as my final year degree thesis. With a particular slant on the evolution os British fascist movements of the 1930s through to the late 1970s.

I'm trying very hard to resist the temptation to do so again

Just a couple of thoughts for now.

Characterising fascism as "left wing" seems to have taken off with 1970s and Reagan-era Republican/conservative ideologues. I suspect we can all guess their motives for wanting to identify fascism as something other than the South American, Greek, Portugese etc. regimes the US was strongly supporting and instead smear by association organisations such as the Sandanistas and ANC. More recently it's an idea picked up by assorted libertarian and anarcho-capitalist gurus to be echoed as a propaganda slogan by their cultists, who often seem to think that a government that stops anyone who wants an automatic rifle from having one, imposes any taxation and has any collective social provision at all is a brutal dictatorship.

Countless words have been written by political theorists ranging through post-Gramsci Gramsci-ites, post modernists, existentialists andnothers about what fascism might be, it's relation to the human soul and man as a social creation etc.

Where many fall flat on their faces is they miss the economics.

Fascism is an exclusively capitalist manifestation. I could go on at great length, but I'll just say that, to take one example, the Nazis were very business friendly. They sought to replace the class-consciousness and class-based component of socialism with a national-consciousness that was class-free. National Socialism meant all aryan Germans, rich and poor alike, working together for a better Germany. With the wealthy getting most of the cake.

The Nazis were wholesale privatisers, from 1933 they sold of cheaply most of the enterprises the Weimar Republic had nationalised and other state enterprises created under Weimar. They received financial support from industrialists and bankers, and in return rewarded their paymasters. Any workers who objected were obviously "anti-German" and treasonous public enemies and were dealt with accordingly.

Private ownership of the means of production and the state acting directly for those private owners is a key component of fascism. Georgi Dimitrov described fascism as imperialist capitalism ruling by outright repression and terror. I think he was essentially right in that. There are interesting discussions to be had about how fascism varies over place and time, but that's the key core component of a fascist society to my mind.

And anyone who thinks the German conservatives of 1932/3 would have invited a genuine socialist of any kind to be Chancellor is misguided in the extreme. Socialists were exactly what they did not want. Neither really was Hitler, but they didn't find that out until the wheels started coming off the Third Reich a decade later by which time it was all a bit too late and the hoped-for good servant had become their brutal master.

By the way of a possibly slightly uncomfortable PS, the first person to specifically suggest the mass gassing of Jews as a way to solve the world's problems wasn't a German. He was British. A character called Arnold Spencer Leese who was active in the 30s through to the 1950s, but never quite made the fascist big-time.

Where he did make the big time was as a vet. He was an army veterinarian who wrote a text on the care and maintenance of the one-humped camel in sickness and in health that became a standard reference work for 50 years.

He was also the late unlamented Colin Jordan's mentor and financial benefactor.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 19 Jun, 2016 7:11 am

Anthony Wells wrote:Like the Survation poll in the Mail on Sunday, YouGov in the Sunday Times show Remain ahead again following the pro-Leave polls a week ago...

...My own view is that Jo Cox’s death probably isn’t the cause of the reverse. YouGov also conducted a poll on Wednesday-Thursday for ITV, and that already showed Leave’s lead falling (and indeed, a third of the fieldwork for this poll was conducted before Jo Cox’s death was announced). Looking at the rest of the questions, there is also a marked shift in people’s views on how they think leaving the EU would impact their finances – 33% of people now think that they would be worse off outside the EU, compared to 23% a fortnight ago.

http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/

After the last debacle I don't have much/any faith in polls but for what it's worth:

Sunday Times Yougov: R 44; L 43
Observer Opinium: R 44; L 44
Mail Survation: R 45; L 42
Yougov: R 42; L 44

55DegreesNorth · Post by **55DegreesNorth** » Sun 19 Jun, 2016 7:27 am

Morning folks,
I was driving home yesterday, when i witnessed a cyclist being knocked down. While checking her over and dialling 999, an off duty firefighter pulled over, thankfully. She was calm, supportive and knew what she was doing, having been on a trauma handling refresher the day before. While waiting for the ambulance (which took 1.5 hrs), she told me that her area was involved in a pilot, where firefighters would be despatched to attend serious cases of injury instead of ambulances, as the ambulance service was so stretched.
When the fire service pointed out that this would impact on their response time to their normal call outs, they were told that it was unlikely to result in more than one or two additional deaths. So thats all right then.

PS. Youll be pleased to hear that the cyclist, a delightful 62 year old lady, probably had nothing worse than a broken collar bone and dislocated shoulder. It was heartening how many drivers stopped to offer help.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 19 Jun, 2016 7:34 am

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... eferendum?
http://www.theguardian.com/media/greens ... emain-vote
http://metro.co.uk/2016/06/17/eu-refere ... n-5951227/

Mail on Sunday: Stay "it is not a time to risk the peace and prosperity of the UK"
Observer: Stay
Times: Stay
Manchester Evening News: Stay
Liverpool Echo: Stay
Newcastle Journal: Stay
Financial Times: Stay
Economist: Stay
Daily Mirror: Stay

Mail: Jump "
Sunday Times: Jump
Sun: Jump (WARNING: don't read the Sun's persuasion piece)
Sunday Telegraph: Jump
Spectator: Jump

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 19 Jun, 2016 7:42 am

https://electionsetc.com/2016/06/19/upd ... recast-6/?
a polling mashup

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sun 19 Jun, 2016 7:44 am

PF, you are entitled to your feelings, shouldn't have to censor them.

What happened last week has been a wake up call. The signs were there, that has been obvious,
The problem of the right on the rampage, and triumphant after a Brexit win is one of the reasons I rejected voting Leave. I have heard nothing, particularly since the horrible events last week, that show me that the left leaning Leavers can explain why concerns about the way things might go are wrong.

We are all entitled to think what we like.

If someone can provide me with a really clear plan explaining how a Brexit win will
a] not lead to the further rise of the triumphant right, particularly the racist extreme,
and b] will not make life worse for ordinary people here economically, I would appreciate it.
So far the likes of Galloway haven't done it, in my view.

Now I'd better get the porridge on.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Sun 19 Jun, 2016 7:53 am

So how bad would it be?

Answer horrendous.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 89296.html

Remember Gove is telling everybody how we will be able to negotiate favourable terms and it is in the EU's interest to help us out.

The answer is the opposite of his incompetent bluster. They will basically make us burn, and frankly wouldn't you in their position?

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 19 Jun, 2016 8:24 am

http://www.heraldscotland.com/opinion/1 ... e_table_/?

Nicola Sturgeon: 'If Scotland is pulled out of the EU against our will then indyref2 is back on the table'

It's inevitable, and hard to argue with - particularly given staying in the EU was used a significant leverage for "No".

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 19 Jun, 2016 8:40 am

People say that Europe's a "mess" - but isn't it just like democracy (for those of us who can just about remember what that was) - that it's the least worst option. Surely the point is that it's complicated, massively diverse, and we're trying to work out how to make it work.

Our representatives in the EU are not, as my parents would be forced to point out so frequently, magicians.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 19 Jun, 2016 8:43 am

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... democratic

The monopolisation of the EU by political elites risks reducing a sense of civic solidarity that's crucial to the European project

...once a constitutional community extends beyond the boundaries of a single state, solidarity among citizens who are willing to support each other should expand to keep pace with it.

Exactly.

(my bold)

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sun 19 Jun, 2016 8:43 am

& I'm sorry if Mr RR feels there has been too little respect for his decision.
But that's what happens when you take a position, people don't always agree.
I found that when I decided, after usually taking a more middle of the road view of what a Labour leader should be like, to vote for Corbyn. Now find myself lumped in with a group called anti-semites, terrorist sympathisers and Stalinists.

Broad brush strokes get applied, particularly when feelings are running so high.

My own very broad brush approach is simple.
The right, and the extreme right, are desperate for Brexit.
That alone, in my view, should ring warning klaxons. But others may feel that is unimportant.
Their thoughts are as valid as PF's.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sun 19 Jun, 2016 8:46 am

tinyclanger2 wrote:His mates might find out it's not so much of a "laugh" when we end up with US style employment "laws".

Each generation has to make its own mistakes it seems.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 19 Jun, 2016 9:43 am

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/eu-referendum- ... n-1566260?
~~EU referendum~~ David Cameron: ~~Brexit~~ a self-imposed humiliation for UK, says EU ~~David Cameron~~

A bit of light copy editing on my part.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sun 19 Jun, 2016 10:10 am

TobyLatimer wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:As an add on - sorry I'm to and froing between the kitchen and here - something Max Hastings said today really struck home. He said that he thought Cameron putting a date / year on his referendum promise was a bad mistake - we are now having a referendum at a time when the EU is in great flux and there is no real indication of what direction it is going in. People are being asked to make up their minds about it when they don't know what it could be in 3 or 5 years.

Editing to add: Hastings is for Remain btw. But he managed to put across some really thoughtful and balanced points about the EU and the way the debate has been framed and how the public have been treated.
Toby's post from a Facebook page earlier today was very good. Explanatory but not preachy.
Explained a few things I was hazy on, the reason why many will be voting Brexit and why those who don't like the EU, will be voting Remain.

And don't know if you saw my earlier post but my son - and I presume his wife - will be voting Leave. Another gut instinct voter I suspect, because he certainly doesn't appear to have gone into it that deeply, and I fear has actually swallowed some of the promises that Leave have been throwing around. He's normally a very caring person so I hope it doesn't backfire on him.

You can't win them all and it's his future. I'll be long gone if Toby's piece is correct ... And I love him dearly, so I don't think I'll broach it any more.
The original piece here ohso, some good comments underneath too x " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thanks Toby. I've passed the link on to one of the Lab. members who thought it was a good piece of writing.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sun 19 Jun, 2016 10:16 am

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
RogerOThornhill wrote:Apparently Gove is promising that Brexit won't cause a recession.

Quite how, as a non-economist, (or even if he was an economist for that matter!), he can possibly do this is anybody's guess...

I saw a tweet that said that City traders had been told to stand by their desks at 4am to ensure they're ready for a meltdown should we vote for Brexit.
Easy, he is a bullshit merchant of the highest order and he has no sense of morals or responsibility. I suspect he actually is a psychopath.

His behaviour is repulsive, as an engineer it is drilled into you never operate outside your competence and never dismiss a safety concern without peer reviewed evidence you are right.

If Remain wins, I hope the lesson Cameron draws from this is that Gove is utterly unfit to serve in any position in any government.

I've heard the rumour if Leave wins he's going to be chancellor

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sun 19 Jun, 2016 10:27 am

55DegreesNorth wrote:Morning folks,
I was driving home yesterday, when i witnessed a cyclist being knocked down. While checking her over and dialling 999, an off duty firefighter pulled over, thankfully. She was calm, supportive and knew what she was doing, having been on a trauma handling refresher the day before. While waiting for the ambulance (which took 1.5 hrs), she told me that her area was involved in a pilot, where firefighters would be despatched to attend serious cases of injury instead of ambulances, as the ambulance service was so stretched.
When the fire service pointed out that this would impact on their response time to their normal call outs, they were told that it was unlikely to result in more than one or two additional deaths. So thats all right then.

PS. Youll be pleased to hear that the cyclist, a delightful 62 year old lady, probably had nothing worse than a broken collar bone and dislocated shoulder. It was heartening how many drivers stopped to offer help.

I'm pretty sure they have the same pilot scheme in operation here. Haven't heard anything about it since it was announced so presume no-one has died due to it - yet.

Edited to add... It's the American way....

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sun 19 Jun, 2016 10:40 am

Morning all.

I've just been reading some comments from yesterday. Although I'm concerned about the economic consequences of Brexit, the political consequences seem less straightforward and foreseeable to me. Our parliament will still be made up of the same MPs after the referendum as before. A change of Tory leader won't make getting things like withdrawing from the ECHR any easier to get through the Commons. All the people who voted for Remain will still be part of the democratic process and will have some influence over what happens next.

There are obviously worries about how some will react if post-Brexit Britain isn't as they expect, but many others will vote "out" for whatever reasons make sense to them and then not think much about it until the next vote, as is so often the way in politics. Very little will change initially and there will be a GE in 2020 where those who didn't want to leave will have as strong a voice as those who did in shaping this country going forwards.

I truly believe there are a lot of lovely people out there who, combined, make this a lovely country to live in, regardless of the outcome of a stupid referendum, called by stupid, stupid person. I meet them every day, not least here, at ftn. So chin up and soldier on - it's the British way. We'll get through this.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sun 19 Jun, 2016 10:49 am

Willow904 wrote:Morning all.

I've just been reading some comments from yesterday. Although I'm concerned about the economic consequences of Brexit, the political consequences seem less straightforward and foreseeable to me. Our parliament will still be made up of the same MPs after the referendum as before. A change of Tory leader won't make getting things like withdrawing from the ECHR any easier to get through the Commons. All the people who voted for Remain will still be part of the democratic process and will have some influence over what happens next.

There are obviously worries about how some will react if post-Brexit Britain isn't as they expect, but many others will vote "out" for whatever reasons make sense to them and then not think much about it until the next vote, as is so often the way in politics. Very little will change initially and there will be a GE in 2020 where those who didn't want to leave will have as strong a voice as those who did in shaping this country going forwards.

I truly believe there are a lot of lovely people out there who, combined, make this a lovely country to live in, regardless of the outcome of a stupid referendum, called by stupid, stupid person. I meet them every day, not least here, at ftn. So chin up and soldier on - it's the British way. We'll get through this.

It's Tory politics that is causing havoc. I've seen loads of Tweets where people are deciding on leave purely to get back at Cameron, and the Tories themselves have turned it into a power struggle. As if it's going to make any difference.

It'll still be the same inept, idiots in charge with just as big an idiot at the helm whoever steps in.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sun 19 Jun, 2016 10:56 am

ohsocynical wrote:
Willow904 wrote:Morning all.

I've just been reading some comments from yesterday. Although I'm concerned about the economic consequences of Brexit, the political consequences seem less straightforward and foreseeable to me. Our parliament will still be made up of the same MPs after the referendum as before. A change of Tory leader won't make getting things like withdrawing from the ECHR any easier to get through the Commons. All the people who voted for Remain will still be part of the democratic process and will have some influence over what happens next.

There are obviously worries about how some will react if post-Brexit Britain isn't as they expect, but many others will vote "out" for whatever reasons make sense to them and then not think much about it until the next vote, as is so often the way in politics. Very little will change initially and there will be a GE in 2020 where those who didn't want to leave will have as strong a voice as those who did in shaping this country going forwards.

I truly believe there are a lot of lovely people out there who, combined, make this a lovely country to live in, regardless of the outcome of a stupid referendum, called by stupid, stupid person. I meet them every day, not least here, at ftn. So chin up and soldier on - it's the British way. We'll get through this.
It's Tory politics that is causing havoc. I've seen loads of Tweets where people are deciding on leave purely to get back at Cameron, and the Tories themselves have turned it into a power struggle. As if it's going to make any difference.

It'll still be the same inept, idiots in charge with just as big an idiot at the helm whoever steps in.

Except Cameron is bizarrely popular in a way few of the other likely leaders are. I keep holding on to that. Their majority is slim and without Cameron 2020 could prove tough to win.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 19 Jun, 2016 11:10 am

Willow904 wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:
Willow904 wrote:Morning all.

I've just been reading some comments from yesterday. Although I'm concerned about the economic consequences of Brexit, the political consequences seem less straightforward and foreseeable to me. Our parliament will still be made up of the same MPs after the referendum as before. A change of Tory leader won't make getting things like withdrawing from the ECHR any easier to get through the Commons. All the people who voted for Remain will still be part of the democratic process and will have some influence over what happens next.

There are obviously worries about how some will react if post-Brexit Britain isn't as they expect, but many others will vote "out" for whatever reasons make sense to them and then not think much about it until the next vote, as is so often the way in politics. Very little will change initially and there will be a GE in 2020 where those who didn't want to leave will have as strong a voice as those who did in shaping this country going forwards.

I truly believe there are a lot of lovely people out there who, combined, make this a lovely country to live in, regardless of the outcome of a stupid referendum, called by stupid, stupid person. I meet them every day, not least here, at ftn. So chin up and soldier on - it's the British way. We'll get through this.
It's Tory politics that is causing havoc. I've seen loads of Tweets where people are deciding on leave purely to get back at Cameron, and the Tories themselves have turned it into a power struggle. As if it's going to make any difference.

It'll still be the same inept, idiots in charge with just as big an idiot at the helm whoever steps in.
Except Cameron is bizarrely popular in a way few of the other likely leaders are. I keep holding on to that. Their majority is slim and without Cameron 2020 could prove tough to win.

And the Conservatives are bizarrely expert at self-preservation. Post-referendum, there's still a chance (whatever the result) that they could decide that it's best to hang on to David Cameron and hail him as some champion of democracy - provided that he is amenable to being the front-man for a different set of ideas. A bust-up with Scotland (if "Leave" win) might be the fly in the ointment with that scenario, though.

Post-2020 is anybody's guess - although I think it's quite possible that Boris Johnson will be gradually sidelined between now and 2020.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 19 Jun, 2016 11:10 am

Good morfternoon.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 19 Jun, 2016 11:12 am

The two polls taken after Thursday lunchtime show a clear move back to "remain".

(the Opinium survey and the YouGov showing Brexit ahead were mostly conducted before)

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sun 19 Jun, 2016 11:15 am

Morning all

Nice balanced panel on the Sunday Politics, Osborne's biographer, rabid harridan from Telegraph and a Murdoch lickspittle from the Sun

Oh, and guess what, Corbyn was a disaster for being honest saying that Free Movement of People equals no upper limit of immigration!

This possible explains why politics and politicians is held in contempt....any other answer would be at best mealy-mouthed or at worst a lie

If Remain supporters cannot argue for the benefits of immigration then they should just get lost!

Oh joy, Mann is on now!

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sun 19 Jun, 2016 11:25 am

howsillyofme1 wrote:Morning all

Nice balanced panel on the Sunday Politics, Osborne's biographer, rabid harridan from Telegraph and a Murdoch lickspittle from the Sun

Oh, and guess what, Corbyn was a disaster for being honest saying that Free Movement of People equals no upper limit of immigration!

This possible explains why politics and politicians is held in contempt....any other answer would be at best mealy-mouthed or at worst a lie

If Remain supporters cannot argue for the benefits of immigration then they should just get lost!

Oh joy, Mann is on now!

Actually John Mann was pretty good and expressed some mature views and why he supported 'Leave' - I disagree with him that the EU is at the heart of this (I think it is the fault of a Tory Government) but the points he raised were good. He also didn't take the bait and slag off Corbyn

Chapeau to him!

Hopefully Labour can come together whatever the result.....and to be honest I don't see why not. It is the Tories who are completely riven

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 19 Jun, 2016 11:27 am

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/eu-referendum- ... et-1566261" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;?
A video has emerged of leading Brexiter Boris Johnson enthusiastically endorsing the European Single Market as recently as 2013. In the short interview, the then-Mayor of London was asked which way he'd vote if a referendum on whether to stay or leave was to be held.

"I'd vote to stay in the Single Market," said Johnson in a video published by Sky News. "I'm in favour of the Single Market." He added emphatically: "I want us to trade freely with our European friends and partners."

Strongly suggesting that BoJo's is prepared for the country to leave Europe so he can have a pop at his mate's job.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Sun 19 Jun, 2016 11:28 am

howsillyofme1 wrote: Oh, and guess what, Corbyn was a disaster for being honest saying that Free Movement of People equals no upper limit of immigration!

This possible explains why politics and politicians is held in contempt....any other answer would be at best mealy-mouthed or at worst a lie

If Remain supporters cannot argue for the benefits of immigration then they should just get lost!

Well, exactly. Marr wouldn't let it rest, of course it's win-win for him, either Corbyn lies or he's 'failing to appeal to Labour-UKIP switchers'.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 19 Jun, 2016 11:29 am

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/bo ... it-8229659?

Boris Johnson claims only Brexit can 'spike the guns of extremists' in wake of Jo Cox's murder

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Sun 19 Jun, 2016 11:29 am

tinyclanger2 wrote:
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/eu-referendum- ... et-1566261?
A video has emerged of leading Brexiter Boris Johnson enthusiastically endorsing the European Single Market as recently as 2013. In the short interview, the then-Mayor of London was asked which way he'd vote if a referendum on whether to stay or leave was to be held.

"I'd vote to stay in the Single Market," said Johnson in a video published by Sky News. "I'm in favour of the Single Market." He added emphatically: "I want us to trade freely with our European friends and partners."
Strongly suggesting that BoJo's is prepared for the country to leave Europe so he can have a pop at his mate's job.

Cameron's bad enough for lack of principles but Boris is spectacular.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 19 Jun, 2016 11:42 am

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/123450

the petition has now passed 42,000

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 19 Jun, 2016 11:48 am

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/ ... are_btn_tw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Netherlands landlord offers tenants €100 rent cut for helping refugees

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 19 Jun, 2016 11:58 am

tinyclanger2 wrote:
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/bo ... it-8229659?

Boris Johnson claims only Brexit can 'spike the guns of extremists' in wake of Jo Cox's murder

Gove's claim this morning that Brexit Britain can be "a progressive beacon" was if anything even funnier.

A lot of people are just going to laugh at this stuff now, though. They have lain down with the Faragian dog and duly gotten fleas.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 19 Jun, 2016 12:07 pm

yahyah wrote:PF, you are entitled to your feelings, shouldn't have to censor them.

What happened last week has been a wake up call. The signs were there, that has been obvious,
The problem of the right on the rampage, and triumphant after a Brexit win is one of the reasons I rejected voting Leave. I have heard nothing, particularly since the horrible events last week, that show me that the left leaning Leavers can explain why concerns about the way things might go are wrong.

We are all entitled to think what we like.

If someone can provide me with a really clear plan explaining how a Brexit win will
a] not lead to the further rise of the triumphant right, particularly the racist extreme,
and b] will not make life worse for ordinary people here economically, I would appreciate it.
So far the likes of Galloway haven't done it, in my view.

Now I'd better get the porridge on.

Thank you. I feel that I could, and should, have expressed myself a bit more clearly, though.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 19 Jun, 2016 12:24 pm

3m ago 12:19
Boris Johnson backs amnesty for illegal immigrants at Vote Leave rally (Politics Live, Guardian)

He's nothing if not an opportunist, is he?

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sun 19 Jun, 2016 12:30 pm

PorFavor wrote:

3m ago 12:19
Boris Johnson backs amnesty for illegal immigrants at Vote Leave rally (Politics Live, Guardian)

He's nothing if not an opportunist, is he?

The sad thing is, it'll be just like the Tories manifesto promises .... Waft away never to appear again, as if they were never said.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sun 19 Jun, 2016 12:30 pm

There is so much hate being seen in posts from Brexit supporters....for everyone and everything that puts an argument for staying in

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sun 19 Jun, 2016 12:31 pm

Matthew Black ‏@NoirMJ 12h12 hours ago

The far-right to contest the seat of Jo Cox in the up-coming by-election

Oh dear.