Saturday 25th and Sunday 26th June 2016

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 7:52 am

Morning.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 7:55 am

Just checked my emails and had finally got the email confirmation for the second referendum petition.
It is now at 675,000 ! Fingers crossed it gets to a million.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 7:58 am

Ten thousand more on it since I posted above. Keep it up folks.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 8:01 am

Morning all.

Polly Toynbee laying the blame for the referendum result at the door of Corbyn. Jesus wept.

One of my favourite reads on social media is Yonatan Zunger, a top Google bod. His threads are consistently thoughtful discussions on a variety of topics. However the referendum and it's post analysis (both from those super happy and those in despair) is freaking plenty of people outside the UK.
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
' Dear gods. Some people really don't know where to quit.

Alright, since you absolutely insist on staying around: you seem to have somehow confused voting to leave the EU with voting to protect yourself from "these animals," as you put it. Since apparently you think that there is a hotbed of radical Muslims using EU laws to sneak into Britain and threaten you.

Well, you didn't just vote for that. Not only does the Brexit vote only mean that the PM has to file a document after which there will be a two-year negotiating period with the EU, but the rules of that negotiation are basically that if the UK doesn't continue to abide by Schengen zone immigration laws, the EU is going to cut off its access to the entire Common Market. Which would basically bankrupt the entire UK.

The only thing you just voted for was to crater the British economy -- because any company in the UK that does business with the EU basically needs to pack up stakes now and move (since if they aren't in full compliance with EU regulations they can't do business there anyway, and that's where a lot of the money is). Not to mention that ignorant anti-immigrant rabble-rousing like you and your dimwitted friends in the UKIP has convinced a bunch of other companies, not to mention a hell of a lot of individuals, that it's time to head out. Guess what? Those were the people that kept the country running. Guess what else? Without them, you're well and truly fucked.

Not immediately, of course. You're sitting there and enjoying your pension, so you won't get hit as quickly as your children or grandchildren (do you have any? They won't be thanking you in a bit) who are about to lose their jobs and have a hell of a time finding a new one. Hopefully they don't own homes or investments or anything, because those just lost a hell of a lot of their value. (Of course, their mortgages didn't, so they'll be paying even as their jobs dry up and their value goes down... remember what happens when that happens?)

No, you'll be sitting there and sponging off the public you just helped betray, until the next round of cuts comes along and... what was that? You thought the NHS was going to get a magical £350 million per week somehow? Oh, you dear, utter idiot. Farage turned around and admitted it was a complete lie not eight hours after the vote. (Which everyone else knew long before) All that's coming is cuts, as the economy contracts all the remaining way, and your pension is going to go along with it.

So congratulations, you ignorant twat. You just got so riled up to protect yourself from those scary Muslims that you set fire to your own country. And now it's you, and your children, and your grandchildren, who are going to pay the price -- along with everyone else unlucky enough to share an island with you. '

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 8:06 am

Scum front page.

: ClvmUMkWIAAYpI2.jpg (93.75 KiB) Viewed 8924 times

Post by **refitman** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 8:09 am

Morning all. I've merged the two weekend threads and fixed the year in yahyah's.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 8:12 am

710,372 now.

Someone on Radio 4 this morning said we will need hundreds of experienced trade negotiators to unpick our EU agreements and create new ones with other countries. We only have a dozen or so, as that work has been done by EU negotiators for us. Presumably such people grow on trees and will be easy to recruit.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 8:13 am

refitman wrote:Morning all. I've merged the two weekend threads and fixed the year in yahyah's.

Year

What time zone did I think we were in ?

Rebecca · Post by **Rebecca** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 8:14 am

yahyah wrote:Ten thousand more on it since I posted above. Keep it up folks.

Morning.
I meant to ask you yesterday(but forgot as I was consumed with rage)the name of your french rose.
I love old roses.My favourite,which I grew in abundance when I had more than a small yard,is very prosaically named Stanwell Perpetual.
But beneath its' unromantic name is the most glorious muddle of scented pale pink.Lots of growth and sharp thorns.And flowers for ages.
Sigh.
My son is of the opinion that we should all be working together to heal the rift in the country.
Fat chance.If a proud brexiteer comes near me I shall proudly set my GERMAN shepherd on them.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 8:18 am

To be fair to Cameron, Radio 4 reported it as he didn't want to do all the hard slog on Brexit then have to 'hand it on a plate' to Boris Johnson.
Can't help feeling some sympathy.
Boris Johnson helped create the chaos, he wants to sit back ruffling his hair and then cruise in to take the victor's laurels when the dirty work has been done.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 8:21 am

The historian Simon Schama on NPR today, when asked how a historian 50 years from now might sum up the results of the Brexit referendum:

"The greatest act of unforced national self-harm yet known in modern history."

Ow!

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 8:23 am

Rebecca wrote:
yahyah wrote:Ten thousand more on it since I posted above. Keep it up folks.
Morning.
I meant to ask you yesterday(but forgot as I was consumed with rage)the name of your french rose.
I love old roses.My favourite,which I grew in abundance when I had more than a small yard,is very prosaically named Stanwell Perpetual.
But beneath its' unromantic name is the most glorious muddle of scented pale pink.Lots of growth and sharp thorns.And flowers for ages.
Sigh.
My son is of the opinion that we should all be working together to heal the rift in the country.
Fat chance.If a proud brexiteer comes near me I shall proudly set my GERMAN shepherd on them.

Felicite Perpetue, it is rambling up into an old apple tree. The flowers have withstood the heavy rain we get here.
Would have gone potty without the garden. A place of sanctuary from the crazy world at the moment.

Post by **refitman** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 8:28 am

yahyah wrote:
refitman wrote:Morning all. I've merged the two weekend threads and fixed the year in yahyah's.

Year What time zone did I think we were in ?

2015

Rebecca · Post by **Rebecca** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 8:29 am

yahyah wrote:
Rebecca wrote:
yahyah wrote:Ten thousand more on it since I posted above. Keep it up folks.
Morning.
I meant to ask you yesterday(but forgot as I was consumed with rage)the name of your french rose.
I love old roses.My favourite,which I grew in abundance when I had more than a small yard,is very prosaically named Stanwell Perpetual.
But beneath its' unromantic name is the most glorious muddle of scented pale pink.Lots of growth and sharp thorns.And flowers for ages.
Sigh.
My son is of the opinion that we should all be working together to heal the rift in the country.
Fat chance.If a proud brexiteer comes near me I shall proudly set my GERMAN shepherd on them.

Felicite Perpetue, it is rambling up into an old apple tree. The flowers have withstood the heavy rain we get here.
Would have gone potty without the garden. A place of sanctuary from the crazy world at the moment.

Oh,I tried it once,but it didn't take very well.Beautiful though.
I've just had breakfast under my apple tree in a barrel.Which needs pruning before it breaks into the kitchen window.
A lovely little oasis in a small,concrete victorian terrace yard.Cheered me up.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 8:32 am

yahyah wrote:To be fair to Cameron, Radio 4 reported it as he didn't want to do all the hard slog on Brexit then have to 'hand it on a plate' to Boris Johnson.
Can't help feeling some sympathy.
Boris Johnson helped create the chaos, he wants to sit back ruffling his hair and then cruise in to take the victor's laurels when the dirty work has been done.

He's a spoiled, lazy, arrogant, know nothing, thick s**t.

It's his fault we had a referendum, but oh dear, never mind about his duty to the country, Dave doesn't want to do the job. Why doesn't the little f****r admit he doesn't know how to and p**s off.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 8:33 am

Morning

I blame Cameron for having called this referendum in the first place. That was the fundamental and grave error.

He tried his best during the campaign, although of course he made some mistakes I don't think they were critical, and he is probably right to leave the mess to Johnson who has made the promises (or as we call it in this household lied) and so he can now make the peace!

As to the Labour right jumping on Corbyn - not unexpected as they are opportunistic bastards....never miss a chance to try to pull the party back to their vision and ignore the consequences. The arrogance is amazing

This was out anti-austerity election. The General Election hid the frustration and anger that should have been directed at the Tories. Instead anger has been focused on immigrants and the EU. Because of our FPTP system the actual frustration was hidden and also those who felt strongly were likely to feel disenfranchised

The anti-austerity theme is common across Europe but our electoral system does not help people vent that anger

Lo and behold Cameron gifts them a single issue referendum on an organisation that can easily be attacked and blamed for their situation

For the zillionth time, the plight of the poor in the UK can be laid at the door of policy decisions taken by ministers in London with the help of the deindustrialization and transfer of jobs out of the UK. These were enacted by Governments elected by the British electorate. Yes, EU and immigration had some blame to take as well but most of it was homegrown

Corbyn make not have run the most inspiring campaign but the Labour voters I know who voted for Leave wanted a limit on immigration and free movement....fed to them by an eager press....how could he ever, ever deliver that (and to be honest I am sure he is more sensitive to their concerns than some of his critics - remember that he was being counselled by everyone, including most on here, to be an uber-European)

Remember over 60% labour voters were for remain

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 8:37 am

I half heard Bill Cash read a poem as a celebration of the Brexit vote on Radio 4 earlier.
I thought I heard something about 'neither reason nor discipline' and was intending to listen to i-player later to check it.

OnTwitter I've just seen:
So Bill Cash is now quoting Gower condemning the mindlessness of crowds as a celebration of Brexit vote#. Ignorance triumphant.

Will try and find the piece, my husband suggested it could be by Ernest Gowers. I'm ignorant, but not triumphant.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 8:40 am

I have to apologise for my language. I never swore when I was younger. Didn't want the kids to pick it up. Now though I can't express my utter contempt for this government in any other way.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 8:45 am

Rachael ‏@Rachael_Swindon 9h9 hours ago

The Leave campaign are saying tonight they never promised immigration will come down. So the point of Leave's immigration rhetoric was what?

Post by **refitman** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 8:46 am

ohsocynical wrote:I have to apologise for my language. I never swore when I was younger. Didn't want the kids to pick it up. Now though I can't express my utter contempt for this government in any other way.

Ah, bollocks to it

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 8:46 am

Morning all.

Two Trillion dollars wiped off the markets in 24 hours. Moody's has lowered the UK's credit rating from stable to negative. Oh joy.
This will be all the excuse Osborne needs to impose his Brexit austerity budget - in fact, it looks like he might have to.

There are lots of people on social media expressing the view that Brexit voters are all thick, stupid, xenophobic racists. This is wrong.
I think a lot of them are angry and feel let down by politics in general, and have unfortunately accepted what Leave were saying.
John Harris has a good piece on this, and it seems to me that people voted the way they did because it made sense to them.
I wonder if I might have voted differently had I been in the situation some of his interviewees are.

We can't all be political nerds. Many people rely on the information they get from the media they choose to use, the things they see around them, the views of their friends and families - and the fact is that millions of people were misinformed by both sides of the debate.
Farage is a populist figure (despite his background, and despite having some extremely dodgy supporters) but I don't think this result is his to crow about - I think it has a lot more to do with people's fears. Not just on immigration, but on their future prospects generally.
I think this is more about giving government a bloody nose because of the damage it has done to communities.

Are those people misguided? Yes, in my opinion. Are they all thick? No. Of course they're not.

The political class and the press have a lot to answer for. It was Cameron's fault, and it all came about because he wanted a political edge and personal kudos. He gambled with our country's future and lost, but it's us who has to pay the price.
I am inclined to think that as events unfold, and judging by what's gone on in just 24 hours, there will be some regret over what's been done. The Brexit leaders have already backtracked on several big-ticket items, notably Hannan's remarks on immigration.
Once it becomes clear that the Brexit "pledges" people voted for are not going to be delivered any time soon, if ever, the anger that led people to vote for it will spill over, I reckon.

Meanwhile, I am sick of people blaming Corbyn. He was absolutely right not to bolster Cameron's campaigning after what happened in Scotland.
It seems to me that Blairites just can't help acting like Tories. All this squabbling is typical of that mindset, and I'm not a member any more because of it.
Corbyn is not perfect; but he is who the membership voted for - and in the absence of any serious candidate, he is the leader and should be supported by his PLP.
This is a historical moment of grand proportions; we are changing the way our nation does business and politics after 40 years of EU involvement; and right now the last thing we need is Tory-style back-stabbing, what we need is a serious alternative to what's going on, and I still think Corbyn and his team can provide if only his PLP gave him a chance and their unqualified support.

Now we have to deal with the fallout. It's going to be a bumpy ride, possibly for some time.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 8:46 am

Today as balanced as usual. Kipper candidate followed by Angela Smith.

Lonewolfie · Post by **Lonewolfie** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 8:49 am

yahyah wrote:To be fair to Cameron, Radio 4 reported it as he didn't want to do all the hard slog on Brexit then have to 'hand it on a plate' to Boris Johnson.
Can't help feeling some sympathy.
Boris Johnson helped create the chaos, he wants to sit back ruffling his hair and then cruise in to take the victor's laurels when the dirty work has been done.

...and yet, of course, it is HIS mess entirely...so in my book, he shouldn't get away with it (or anything else) quite so easily...and it's also a bit presumptuous that it'll automatically be Johnson - the rest of the Tory party might have something to say about that.

My flabber has been ghasted in this whole thing by the seemingly constant stream of people (Farridge and most of the Westmonster Bubble) referring to it as an 'election'...so who's been elected, and to what?

Here in (by now, completely unrealistic) Hope (just north of Peterborough), I believe(TM) there's got to be a rerun - and whilst we're about it, we can have a question on the ballot paper about whether you are for or against the continuation of the illegitimate Government 1st elected in 2010.....I'm sure the political class wouldn't mind another little question, just to be sure they really are supported in what they're doing.

Snappy lection now!! (and morfternoon all)

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 8:52 am

ohsocynical wrote:
yahyah wrote:To be fair to Cameron, Radio 4 reported it as he didn't want to do all the hard slog on Brexit then have to 'hand it on a plate' to Boris Johnson.
Can't help feeling some sympathy.
Boris Johnson helped create the chaos, he wants to sit back ruffling his hair and then cruise in to take the victor's laurels when the dirty work has been done.
He's a spoiled, lazy, arrogant, know nothing, thick s**t.

It's his fault we had a referendum, but oh dear, never mind about his duty to the country, Dave doesn't want to do the job. Why doesn't the little f****r admit he doesn't know how to and p**s off.

I agree with this - he said, originally, that he'd stay on and deal with the aftermath whatever the vote turned out to be.

Now he's running away. There are those who think he has done the only decent thing he's ever done for this country by resigning - I'm more inclined to think he is too lazy to do the hard yards, cares so little about what he has unleashed, and is so obsessed with his own image that he won't countenance the humiliation that is coming from the EU.

Not the first time he has demonstrated cowardice.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 8:52 am

Rachael ‏@Rachael_Swindon 10h10 hours ago

Online & on the radio people saying "I didn't mean to vote leave", "I regret it now" & "they lied about the £350m".

Wait until it sinks in about the immigration...

I'll ignore the niggling thought of short attention spans and hope they'll put a bit more thought into how they vote, in 2010.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 8:52 am

My husband is wrong, it isn't by Ernest Gowers the private secretary to Lloyd George, but from the fourteenth century according to Twitter, but no more details than '1378 Gower poem'.
The line is 'they will be stopped by neither reason nor discipline'.

Maybe one of our FTN historians will know who/what it is ?

Post by **refitman** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 8:53 am

ephemerid wrote:Morning all.

There are lots of people on social media expressing the view that Brexit voters are all thick, stupid, xenophobic racists. This is wrong.
I think a lot of them are angry and feel let down by politics in general, and have unfortunately accepted what Leave were saying.
John Harris has a good piece on this, and it seems to me that people voted the way they did because it made sense to them.
I wonder if I might have voted differently had I been in the situation some of his interviewees are.

We can't all be political nerds. Many people rely on the information they get from the media they choose to use, the things they see around them, the views of their friends and families - and the fact is that millions of people were misinformed by both sides of the debate.
Farage is a populist figure (despite his background, and despite having some extremely dodgy supporters) but I don't think this result is his to crow about - I think it has a lot more to do with people's fears. Not just on immigration, but on their future prospects generally.
I think this is more about giving government a bloody nose because of the damage it has done to communities.

Are those people misguided? Yes, in my opinion. Are they all thick? No. Of course they're not.

(My edit)
I have no issue (ish) with people being taken in by the lies, that will happen. It's the ones now saying they don't actually want to leave and didn't expect it to happen, even though they ticked that box, that get my contempt. And don't get me started on "I'll just vote the other way next time" crowd

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 8:58 am

ohsocynical wrote:Rachael ‏@Rachael_Swindon 9h9 hours ago

The Leave campaign are saying tonight they never promised immigration will come down. So the point of Leave's immigration rhetoric was what?

They've unleashed the mob.

Who is going to control the mindless twerps Bill Cash was praising, those not responsive to 'reason' or 'discipline', and the racist thugs, when they realise they were conned ?

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 9:03 am

Apologies for the broad brush. Other sizes of brush are available, according to personal choice.

martinson · Post by **martinson** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 9:14 am

Good morning. What a mess!

A bit of after the horse has bolted with these references but for completeness and some considerations of what now.

http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/scr ... r16169.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://constitution-unit.com/2016/06/2 ... ve-the-eu/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 9:14 am

To be fair to all those taken in, 'thick', open to hearing what they wanted to hear, whatever they were, the whole thing about the EU is so complicated, so technical, that most people will go glassy eyed at the detail.

That's why is was so wrong to have a referendum on such an important issue.
Our elected law makers, with the help of civil servants, have knowledge of EU systems and laws, & the expertise to debate and vote on these issues.

A straight in/out referendum was always going to be a problem.

The reason many people don't vote is they find it all too confusing, or difficult to understand.
Leave got their campaigning right (wrong morally, but right politically), getting those base messages out, appealing to fear of immigration and pressure on public services. An unsophisticated voter will not realise the political reality, that right wingers like Farage and Brexit Tories want to starve public services.
Their real genius was the way they got so many voters to believe that it was Remain who was scaremongering.
I lost count of the number of 'ordinary voters' vox popped who said they were voting Leave because Remain were scaremongering.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 9:21 am

Maybe that's where Labour need to start from in rebuilding support.

How has the working person got so divorced from any basic level of political consciousness as to believe right wingers care about public services and the NHS ? Why did they not recognise that the NHS was being used, in conjunction with anti-immigration rhetoric, as a political tool ?

martinson · Post by **martinson** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 9:22 am

yahyah wrote:To be fair to all those taken in, 'thick', open to hearing what they wanted to hear, whatever they were, the whole thing about the EU is so complicated, so technical, that most people will go glassy eyed at the detail.

That's why is was so wrong to have a referendum on such an important issue.
Our elected law makers, with the help of civil servants, have knowledge of EU systems and laws, & the expertise to debate and vote on these issues.

A straight in/out referendum was always going to be a problem.

The reason many people don't vote is they find it all too confusing, or difficult to understand.
Leave got their campaigning right (wrong morally, but right politically), getting those base messages out, appealing to fear of immigration.
Their real genius was the way they got so many voters to believe that it was Remain who was scaremongering.

I lost count of the number of 'ordinary voters' vox popped who said they were voting Leave because Remain were scaremongering.

I suppose this is modern propaganda. Churn out the sound bytes to see what catches on, support that with massive publicity and rebuttal never on the same scale. Bingo you win. Terrifying really.

Maeght · Post by **Maeght** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 9:35 am

Lonewolfie wrote:
yahyah wrote:To be fair to Cameron, Radio 4 reported it as he didn't want to do all the hard slog on Brexit then have to 'hand it on a plate' to Boris Johnson.
Can't help feeling some sympathy.
Boris Johnson helped create the chaos, he wants to sit back ruffling his hair and then cruise in to take the victor's laurels when the dirty work has been done.
...and yet, of course, it is HIS mess entirely...so in my book, he shouldn't get away with it (or anything else) quite so easily...and it's also a bit presumptuous that it'll automatically be Johnson - the rest of the Tory party might have something to say about that.

My flabber has been ghasted in this whole thing by the seemingly constant stream of people (Farridge and most of the Westmonster Bubble) referring to it as an 'election'...so who's been elected, and to what?

Here in (by now, completely unrealistic) Hope (just north of Peterborough), I believe(TM) there's got to be a rerun - and whilst we're about it, we can have a question on the ballot paper about whether you are for or against the continuation of the illegitimate Government 1st elected in 2010.....I'm sure the political class wouldn't mind another little question, just to be sure they really are supported in what they're doing.

Snappy lection now!! (and morfternoon all)

My flabber is at death's door because it has been ghasted too many times.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 9:35 am

That photo of Cam and Sam on the front page of the mirror?

The Mirror interprets her look as saying 'So what the hell happens now'?

I'd interpret it as, 'What the hell have you done you stupid, stupid man?'

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 9:51 am

yahyah wrote:My husband is wrong, it isn't by Ernest Gowers the private secretary to Lloyd George, but from the fourteenth century according to Twitter, but no more details than '1378 Gower poem'.
The line is 'they will be stopped by neither reason nor discipline'.

Maybe one of our FTN historians will know who/what it is ?

the v moral John Gower - friend of chaucer.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 9:51 am

When I was young everything was black and white, I acted on first instincts and didn't make too many bad mistakes.
As you get older you see all the shades between black and white. You tend to stop and give decisions a bit more time.

With the referendum my first instinct was Remain, because in six years Tories haven't managed to make a decent fist of anything they've attempted. And in many instances have made things worse, so why would they suddenly be able to organise and steer the country through such a huge event.

But then I wavered. I don't like the EU. Didn't like the way they treated Greece, and I'm old and a bit stuffy, [yes, deep down I really am] and like being a Brit.
In the end though I decided to go with my instincts. Tories are incompetent end of. And I think it shows I was right.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 9:52 am

My husband, my own in-house historian/literature expert has been dusting off books to find me Bill Cash's poem source. It is John Gower, or 'Moral Gower' writing about, and a severe critic of the Peasants' Revolt

It is fascinating how many echoes there are in the current situation.

Strictly pre-structuralist, but Emile Legouis, in History of English Literature writes about Gower and the piece Cash probably quoted from, Vox Clamantis.

Legouis, writing in the first half of the 2Oth century says ''The poet has a vision of a crowd of members of the populace changed into wild beasts and uncurbed by reason - asses, fierce as lions, who will bear no more burdens, oxen who refuse to draw the plough, dogs who bark at huntsmen, cats who have reverted to wildness.......

....the ship of the state is still adrift and puts in at the island of disorder....

Now't changes....how apt that description is of the post Brexit chaos.

Something that also resonated with today's debacle and retracting of Leave campaign slogans :
''The king procured the dispersal of the rebels by promising to redress their grievances, then revoked his promises, and the rising ended by cruel and repressive measures''
Maybe Cash is covertly showing what will happen if the mob will not be controlled under an increasingly right wing government.

And finally, Gower shows us what the Brexit negotiating team will be saying:

Et si je n'ai du francais la faconde,
Pardonnez-moi que je de ce fors voie
Je suis Anglais: si quiers par telle voie
Etre excuse....

My own school girl french makes that....if I don't have the facility of French, pardon me if I go wrong, I am English and therefore I beg to be excused

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 9:55 am

Temulkar wrote:
yahyah wrote:My husband is wrong, it isn't by Ernest Gowers the private secretary to Lloyd George, but from the fourteenth century according to Twitter, but no more details than '1378 Gower poem'.
The line is 'they will be stopped by neither reason nor discipline'.

Maybe one of our FTN historians will know who/what it is ?
the v moral John Gower - friend of chaucer.

Thanks Tem, have just seen your post.

Pre-internet books from our shelves came to the rescue.
Apologies for my non-qualified and partial use of a historic text. But if Cash can, so can I.

I've kept the books out, will be using my time more productively this afternoon reading.
Only so long one can feel angry.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 10:04 am

yahyah wrote:710,372 now.

Someone on Radio 4 this morning said we will need hundreds of experienced trade negotiators to unpick our EU agreements and create new ones with other countries. We only have a dozen or so, as that work has been done by EU negotiators for us. Presumably such people grow on trees and will be easy to recruit.

But......but.......they're EXPERTS!!!!!! We don't want or need them, Gove said so!

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 10:10 am

Evan Davies cheekily asked Ken Clarke if he didn't think it would have been better if Miliband had won the GE.

Just think, now the media would be moaning about what he'd done, and we'd be moaning about what he hadn't, and none of us would know we were living in a relative Utopia.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 10:17 am

I find myself less emotional about Brexit than I was about the GE, probably because remain was never a positive choice, Hope didn't really appear, and as we know, we can take despair, it's Hope we can't stand.

I'm much less concerned about the long term political implications than the short term economic ones, not least because they may be so serious as to make it impossible to see where we're going.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 10:22 am

If he was in the armed services, Cameron's resignation would be classed as dereliction of duty, or even cowardice in the face of the enemy.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 10:26 am

gilsey wrote:Evan Davies cheekily asked Ken Clarke if he didn't think it would have been better if Miliband had won the GE.

Just think, now the media would be moaning about what he'd done, and we'd be moaning about what he hadn't, and none of us would know we were living in a relative Utopia.

I agree with this, to a degree.

The worrying thing is and always has been, when those who were taken in by the Brexit "promises" realise they have been had - what then?

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 10:34 am

Did you mean to quote the other one, AK?

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 10:35 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
gilsey wrote:Evan Davies cheekily asked Ken Clarke if he didn't think it would have been better if Miliband had won the GE.

Just think, now the media would be moaning about what he'd done, and we'd be moaning about what he hadn't, and none of us would know we were living in a relative Utopia.
I agree with this, to a degree.

The worrying thing is and always has been, when those who were taken in by the Brexit "promises" realise they have been had - what then?

When the penny drops on all sides that Brexit was both a huge con and an economic disaster a new energetic Labour leader can build a coalition of the pissed off and use it to storm Downing Street in 2020 or later if Boris gets to hammer Corbyn first.

Rebecca · Post by **Rebecca** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 10:36 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
gilsey wrote:Evan Davies cheekily asked Ken Clarke if he didn't think it would have been better if Miliband had won the GE.

Just think, now the media would be moaning about what he'd done, and we'd be moaning about what he hadn't, and none of us would know we were living in a relative Utopia.
I agree with this, to a degree.

The worrying thing is and always has been, when those who were taken in by the Brexit "promises" realise they have been had - what then?

Well,seeing as they were told quite clearly that the brexit promises were lies,and how much harm that brexit would do to the economy(only 2 trillion wiped off the world markets yesterday,thanks for that )then maybe they should try listening in future?
Anyway,Anatoly,as any fool knows,they will blame it all on Corbyn and the labour party.

Rebecca · Post by **Rebecca** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 10:39 am

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:
gilsey wrote:Evan Davies cheekily asked Ken Clarke if he didn't think it would have been better if Miliband had won the GE.

Just think, now the media would be moaning about what he'd done, and we'd be moaning about what he hadn't, and none of us would know we were living in a relative Utopia.
I agree with this, to a degree.

The worrying thing is and always has been, when those who were taken in by the Brexit "promises" realise they have been had - what then?
When the penny drops on all sides that Brexit was both a huge con and an economic disaster a new energetic Labour leader can build a coalition of the pissed off and use it to storm Downing Street in 2020 or later if Boris gets to hammer Corbyn first.

TE,are you able to post a comment without whining about Corbyn?
Seems like it is all you have done since his name was put forward in the leadership election.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 10:42 am

http://jackofkent.com/2016/06/why-the-a ... important/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Why the Article 50 notification is important

Rebecca · Post by **Rebecca** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 10:45 am

RobertSnozers wrote:
TechnicalEphemera wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote: I agree with this, to a degree.

The worrying thing is and always has been, when those who were taken in by the Brexit "promises" realise they have been had - what then?
When the penny drops on all sides that Brexit was both a huge con and an economic disaster a new energetic Labour leader can build a coalition of the pissed off and use it to storm Downing Street in 2020 or later if Boris gets to hammer Corbyn first.
When the penny drops we will have violence on the streets.

I can't believe you are making this about Corbyn. This really, really isn't about Corbyn.

He makes everything about Corbyn.