Monday 27th June 2016

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 5:48 am

Good morning everyone

Although I am reluctant to do so I will continue the Corbyn meme

I am pretty convinced this has little to do with the referendum - which is just being used as an excuse

The fact is that Corbyn has not been and never will be a kneejerk fan of the EU - probably this puts him in the same place as the vast mjority of people, including the remainers

He may or may not have done enough in the campaign...this is a difficult one to judge as the media ignored all the Labour campaigning to concentrate on the Blue vs Blue stuff.....there wasn't much site of anyone, such as Farron, Sturgeon or Johnson either

If we look at the results it is clear that in some Labour areas there was a massive vote against the EU.

There are two reasons for this it would be sensible to say. Firstly, the effects of austerity and the lack of plan to ensure communities are not left behind. On this Corbyn is far closer to their concerns than anyone on the Leave side (apart from a very few exceptions) and pretty much all his own party, especially those who resigned yesterday

The second is the immigration question and I am afraid that is something where he could not go towards the Leave campaign.

The cause of the vast majority of problems is austerity but the blame was attached to immigration.

In some areas immigration is a valid issue but Free Movement was not on the table and the Labour criticisms of the removal of support for these communities is far more realistic than unilateral declaration of the end of Free Movement - a promise that could not be kept. Corbyn was never anything but honest on this

However, a lot of the seats where the votes were high for Leave have no or low immigration and I think the local MPs should look at themselves very carefully before criticising others. If there is pretty low immigration how is it that the local MP was not able to make the austerity case and say that it is not immigration

Is the Port Talbot issue about immigration Mr Kinnock?

As to his reaction post the referendum - what was he supposed to do?

The refrendum was lost and I think we are pretty much all agree there will be no rolling back of it. Labour politicians keep wittering on about 'listening to the message from voters' - and the message is that we do not like austerity and we do not like immigrants. On the former the right of Labour have not been as clearly against it as they should and on the latter no Remainer can say tmore that they will have to look to reform it from within the EU as the rules are not about to change

I believe that we should invoke A50 as soon as possible to be fair to our ex-partners - to wait may also start bringing the EU down and that would be an even more craven and criminal act that what has already come to pass

This coup is not about the referendum it is about internal power games and is both shown to be incompetent, self-indulgent and damaging

The referendum was lost because of lies and incompetence from mainly Tories - but the right of Labour has always shown more interest ina ttacking their own than the real enemy of the people

Note how many times their demigod Blair has praised Cameron....you know Cameron the PM who has destroyed tis country's future and eprhaps that of Europe as well

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 7:00 am

Morning.

Just read last night's posts, some about the increase in violence and threats from the now emboldened and triumphant far right.

I will just quote from a character in the Philip Roth novel I mentioned yesterday.
''You think it can't happen here ? It is happening here''.

We've been insulted as an 'echo chamber' at FTN.
The last week has shown we certainly aren't.
Thanks to everyone who has posted, and welcome back to some old friends.
I find all the different views and expression of feelings very helpful.
Everything seems to be slip sliding all over the place at the moment, some of the fall back positions aren't there any more.

For me, it seems odd that after shouting about control for so long, the Brexit brigade seem happy to see things in free fall, and seem happy to accept the consequences of no one knowing what the hell is going on, no matter how dire they are.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 7:04 am

Labour MP Yasmin Qureshi is seeking an urgent question in the House about Brexit linked race crimes and hate attacks.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 7:05 am

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cl6Ug7WWIAAU3yV.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

From the Sun.
I think we can guess where Murdoch would be positioned in a 'what if' novel about the rise of fascism in our country.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 7:25 am

Morning Howsillyofme, yahyah, and all.

I agree with most of what you've posted here - pre-referendum and now, this entire performance has been about Tory power at the top; and now it's also about the same with Labour, and in some ways I think the Labour issue is worse.
I expect the Tories to implode over Europe, tell lies, and runaway when the going gets tough. It's what they do. I don't expect a party which prides itself on its' own democracy to behave in such an undemocratic fashion. This is a putsch.

Politics is a grubby business and always has been, but recent events are a new low, IMHO. Cameron has gambled with our country for his own ends, failed to get what he wanted out of it, and rather than take some responsibility for what he has done, has basically run away.
We do not appear to have an actual government at the moment. This is a constitutional, political, and economic crisis - and all the main party of opposition can do is blame Corbyn for Alan Johnson's failure to get the Labour Remain message across. This is not Corbyn's failure.

There are people here and elsewhere for whom I have a great deal of liking and respect; people with whom I agree on many things, usually.
But this is not "usually". This is unprecedented.
I find it very odd that a few people whose views I broadly share, under normal circumstances, can be so adamant that Corbyn has to go. I cannot, for the life of me, see what he has done wrong.
He is not "unelectable". He has been elected to his constituency on increasing majorities for 30-odd years; he was elected leader with a margin so positive there was no second ballot; why is he "unelectable"?
He has, in this referendum campaign, done the right thing by saying that he supports the party policy of Remain - that is the will of the majority in the party he leads and that is what he had to do. It's not dithering.
He also expressed his view that he has always been Eurosceptic and if we stayed in the EU he would want reform. Again, I cannot for the life of me see anything wrong with that. It's honest - a rarity these days.

This nonsense - and it IS nonsense - is all about a PLP that is so removed from the majority of the party members it thinks it can dictate to those members what they should do and who they must support.
Those members fund the party, campaign for the party, work their bloody socks off for the party - but cannot be trusted to choose their leader. If this carries on much longer, people will leave as I have already.
All those clever Shadow Cabinet members who are involved in this are so convinced they are right that not one of them - not one - has had the courage to actually mount a leadership challenge themselves.

Right now, we have no effective government; the economy is on a precipice thanks to Cameron's antics; the far right are no longer cautious and are attacking anyone they think shouldn't be here; the Brexiters are backtracking on their promises faster than sugar slides off a shovel - and that old "divide and rule" politics is back on a national scale - and all the PLP can offer is the squabble they've been indulging in ever since the membership put their snotty little noses out of joint.

We pay Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition good money to oppose. Note to the PLP - that's the government (such as it is) you should be opposing, not your democratically elected leader and the hundreds of thousands of loyal members who put him there. Now grow up or piss off.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 7:36 am

In a hypothetical situation where Yvette Cooper won, what messages do we think she would have been giving about the EU? "It's all great, I give it 11 out of 10! We'll put a cap on EU immigration." And how many of them would have gone down like a bucket of cold sick with both sides?

If Corbyn was 'lacklustre', what about those supposed masters of electoral success, Blair, Mandelson and Brown? How many votes did their big set-piece speeches secure... Or lose?

How much did it help having Darling torch his previously high reputation to the ground by sharing the same scaremongering platform as Osborne?

If all the Labour MPs were working harder and more enthusiastically than Corbyn, why did they make so little difference? Are they honestly saying that they can't wipe their own backsides without the help of their leader to do it all for them.

Anyway. It appears that Corbyn is likely to be gone by the end of today. The PLP will celebrate their success at ending the horror, with their putsch to remove a leader who - unlike many of them - has never lost an election while on the front benches yet is the one whose is routinely called the man who couldn't win x, y, and z election.

They'll get their 'moderate' candidate in place only to find that it's that 'moderateness' that's become political poison to the Scottish and the North, and to actual moderates like me. And it won't make a blind bit of difference at the next GE. They'll lose badly should the Tories have regrouped by then or win badly because the Tories have self destructed by then. Like Blair did in 97.

Ah well. It really wasn't much fun while it lasted.

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 7:54 am

OK then, regarding Corbyn. Here's a two-week old grenade for anyone who thinks the PLP's behaviour yesterday and today might actually have been driven by principle or the national interest:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06 ... litz-afte/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 7:55 am

24 hour blitz ? It's taken them a lot longer than that.

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 7:57 am

I didn't see it, but I read somehere that Ed Balls was talking Yvette up yesterday on Peston's show as a potential leader if the vacancy arose.

Adam Babbington Boulton last night on Sky was suggesting that Tom Watson himself is the one behind the scenes actually encouriging and co.ordinating the resignations from the shadow cabinet. He had a good source apparently.

The argument from the splitters that Jeremy can't win an election falls down imo given the poll over the weekend of 32% each to Tory & Labour.

I hope Jeremy rides it out, and if ultimately is forced out then I hope he wins the next leadership election with another landslide.

The weekend of the long knives from the quitters will show that they stabbed only themselves in the back, and if they had any modicum of dignity left they should fuck off into well deserved obscurity .

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 8:00 am

Diane Johnson and Toby Perkins have resigned.

Corbyn should end the debacle. Sack the remaining ones and ask them to reapply immedicately for their jobs.

That'll stop the deliberately damaging, and self indulgent, drip drip effect of the timings of their resignations.

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 8:02 am

Meanwhile, one has to ask why this guy "can't believe" his perfectly accurate assessment *cough* James Harding *cough*...

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 8:08 am

Absolutely not a planned coup. Lucy Powell.

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 8:09 am

What a whirlwind these last few weeks have been, a sitting MP murdered in broad daylight, the electorate have voted to leave the eu, a sitting PM resigned and the PLP Bitterites trying to undermine the membership who voted overwhelmingly for a better, more inclusive politics.

Surprised at Byrant being one of the splitters, btw I though he was better than that. Toby Young too, Falconer - no shock at all really there.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 8:13 am

Ian Murray has insisted 'there is no choreography' in the resignations.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 8:15 am

Stephen Kinnock's resigned as Eagle's PPS.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 8:23 am

Here we go again

Murray, who was part of the Scottish Party who got wiped out in 2015 pre-Corbyn, is banging on about immigration

This makes my blood boil...does he have a problem in Scotland -a country crying out for immigrants due to a demographic issue?

For all those supporting the overthrow of Corbyn not see the problem I have here?

What should Corbyn do?

He is more consistently anti-austerity than the SC has been. He is for the Migration Support Fund which helps to mitigate some of the affects. He has been against the 'race to the bottom' and de industrialisation policies since he was elected

What he cannot do is LIE and say that he can do anything about EU immigration as part of the EU...it would take reform from inside. He said he would like to do that

What we have is an internal power plot...nothing more

The people involved have no integrity and are now making me think that some are no longer suitable for representing the party

Again....Mr Twat Kinnock - why could you not persuade your own constituents of the benefit of the EU. It was the UK Government who have fucked up the steel industry and never seen many immigrants in Port Talbot

Put up or fuck off

Challenge for the leadership in a proper way and get yourself elected

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 8:25 am

Morning all. Only here briefly as I have a funeral to get to later.

Chris Cook ‏@xtophercook 3m3 minutes ago
So Chris Grayling says immigration will be cut. We will also get £350m pw, which of course implies we still get rebate after leaving EU.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 8:31 am

yahyah wrote:Ian Murray has insisted 'there is no choreography' in the resignations.

"We only choreographed the last couple of days of the plot we've been planning for the past 9 months." He failed to say.

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 8:33 am

yahyah wrote:Ian Murray has insisted 'there is no choreography' in the resignations.

I was quite ambivalent yesterday, because Remain is far more important to me than Corbyn.

But honestly, this is almost as big an insult to the intelligence as Boris Johnson.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 8:37 am

Having slept on it and given the brain a chance to do a little processing, I've a clearer handle on how I feel.

Rules are there to safeguard the democratic process.

If Jeremy is still there for a leader contest I will vote for him out of principal because there is a right way to go about things, and a wrong way.
And I would do that whoever was leader, purely for that reason.

The Blairites have done it the wrong way. End of.

If Corbyn loses or resigns then my membership goes in the bin, and I shall never cast a vote again.

I hated voting in the PC election. I didn't want to vote for something I didn't believe in. Never again.

I hated voting in the Referendum. It went against all my instincts, but I did it. Never again.

There! That feels better.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 8:40 am

Newspaper front pages on Brexit. the Liberation one (7th one in) is particularly terrifying:
https://www.buzzfeed.com/laurasilver/pa ... .fhQlPpqn5

Edit: corrected the location of the image.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 8:45 am

yahyah wrote:Stephen Kinnock's resigned as Eagle's PPS.

To a chorus of " Don't let the door hit you on the arse on the way out?"

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 8:45 am

The new shadows list is up on AS's blog.

My cut and paste doesn't work so can't post it.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 8:51 am

ohsocynical wrote:
yahyah wrote:Stephen Kinnock's resigned as Eagle's PPS.
To a chorus of " Don't let the door hit you on the arse on the way out?"

I'm coming round to Temulkar's opinion of him.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 8:59 am

http://labourlist.org/2016/06/the-plot- ... r-members/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 9:00 am

Labour Lords have piled in too, according to Radio 4.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 9:02 am

Rowson

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... emy-corbyn" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 9:03 am

Jess Phillips couldn't let a day go by without getting a headline.
She's resigned her PPS to the education team.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 9:06 am

And asked whether he could serve in a government committed to leaving the EU, Osborne said: “It is my country right or wrong. And intend to fulfil my responsibilities to the country.”

So Osborne's not going anywhere. Another Atlantic Bridger, no doubt the plan is, if the UK is going out, to take down the rest of the EU with us on our way out. Signalling definite uncertainty until at least the Autumn seems guaranteed to cause the remaining 27 countries as much instability as possible. No doubt the vultures are already circling to make as much gain out of the ensuing mayhem as possible.

Btw, what's the right way for a shadow cabinet minister to behave if they disagree with the direction taken by their leader in response to a momentous political event?

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 9:08 am

Says it all. Gotta have her day in the sun and on Twitter.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 9:12 am

yahyah wrote:Jess Phillips couldn't let a day go by without getting a headline.
She's resigned her PPS to the education team.

ZOMG, no not Jess!

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 9:12 am

Oops. Accidental repost deleted.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 9:16 am

RobertSnozers wrote:So is Corbyn's position even tenable any more? If what looks like a substantial part of the PLP is going to use all their energies fighting their leader and not the Tories. Even the Orange Bookers weren't this disrespectful to their own party.

The 'not Corbyn' brigade need to start briefing about who instead.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 9:23 am

Willow904 wrote:
And asked whether he could serve in a government committed to leaving the EU, Osborne said: “It is my country right or wrong. And intend to fulfil my responsibilities to the country.”
So Osborne's not going anywhere. Another Atlantic Bridger, no doubt the plan is, if the UK is going out, to take down the rest of the EU with us on our way out. Signalling definite uncertainty until at least the Autumn seems guaranteed to cause the remaining 27 countries as much instability as possible. No doubt the vultures are already circling to make as much gain out of the ensuing mayhem as possible.

Btw, what's the right way for a shadow cabinet minister to behave if they disagree with the direction taken by their leader in response to a momentous political event?

A principled resignation is appropriate - unfortunately, due to how this has been done it suggests it is not at all principled and was a coordinated attempt at a coup - the process was shown in the link above from the Telegraph a few weeks ago

If Benn had resigned and come up with a more coherent critique of the leadership, remember Cook and Howe, then it would have been more powerful. The fact is none of them could muster decent speech amongst them and have done it in a way that will do utmost damage to the party

This is going to become a battle between part of the PLP and the membership......and who knows who will win.

I imagine though there is a risk of a lot of deselections following this - and then the whining will get even stronger

This has just made me want Corbyn to hang on - I prefer his thrust of policy to that of a Benn - that is what my decision is based on and so unless a see an alternative then I will continue to support him

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 9:28 am

RobertSnozers wrote:
Willow904 wrote:
And asked whether he could serve in a government committed to leaving the EU, Osborne said: “It is my country right or wrong. And intend to fulfil my responsibilities to the country.”
So Osborne's not going anywhere. Another Atlantic Bridger, no doubt the plan is, if the UK is going out, to take down the rest of the EU with us on our way out. Signalling definite uncertainty until at least the Autumn seems guaranteed to cause the remaining 27 countries as much instability as possible. No doubt the vultures are already circling to make as much gain out of the ensuing mayhem as possible.

Btw, what's the right way for a shadow cabinet minister to behave if they disagree with the direction taken by their leader in response to a momentous political event?
We'll never know as the coup was clearly planned before that momentous political event.

'Clearly planned'?

Surely that's just your opinion based on gossip and your own biased opinion of various Labour MPs. And you're entitled to your opinion, but the fact remains that Corbyn has set out his vision of how Labour should deal with the Brexit vote and cabinet ministers have subsequently resigned. If they disagree with their leader's vision, what other option is open to them? The truth is, we cannot know if this would have happened if remain won. I suspect not, the 'usual suspects' would not have been enough. No one knows what Labour supporters want to do next, MPs must act according to their own instincts and if those instincts aren't in line with Corbyn's what action is open to them other than to resign and disagree from the backbenches?

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 9:38 am

Willow904 wrote:
RobertSnozers wrote:
Willow904 wrote: So Osborne's not going anywhere. Another Atlantic Bridger, no doubt the plan is, if the UK is going out, to take down the rest of the EU with us on our way out. Signalling definite uncertainty until at least the Autumn seems guaranteed to cause the remaining 27 countries as much instability as possible. No doubt the vultures are already circling to make as much gain out of the ensuing mayhem as possible.

Btw, what's the right way for a shadow cabinet minister to behave if they disagree with the direction taken by their leader in response to a momentous political event?
We'll never know as the coup was clearly planned before that momentous political event.
'Clearly planned'?

Surely that's just your opinion based on gossip and your own biased opinion of various Labour MPs. And you're entitled to your opinion, but the fact remains that Corbyn has set out his vision of how Labour should deal with the Brexit vote and cabinet ministers have subsequently resigned. If they disagree with their leader's vision, what other option is open to them? The truth is, we cannot know if this would have happened if remain won. I suspect not, the 'usual suspects' would not have been enough. No one knows what Labour supporters want to do next, MPs must act according to their own instincts and if those instincts aren't in line with Corbyn's what action is open to them other than to resign and disagree from the backbenches?

Do you really believe that? Really? Wow!

This to me is so clearly coordinated - and if it wasn't then it was so badly done to have appeared to have been - with the rule that perception equals reality. The evidence points to it as well

I find the reasoning I have heard from the SC pretty woeful - Benn was pretty terrible yesterday and all this wittering about 'listening toi the voters on immigration' whilst 'not being totally committed to remain' is pathetic

The referendum is done...Remain lost...Remain lost because people blamed the effects of neoliberal policies for 40 years on the EU and immigrants. Not because of Corbyn....do you completely absolve local MPs from any blame, especially those not touched by immigration. Perhaps they could have pointed out that their consitutents have been abandoned for 40 years in an orgy of making the wealthy wealthier

But then some of those involved don't actually oppose those policies...they were happy to support the austerity-light policies of Balls and undermine their last leader

If we were talking about replacing him with a credible person in who I think there is future hope then well and good but the only names I have seen from here are Jarvis (hahahaha) and some others who are more interesting but are not experienced enough

This coup is intended to by-pass the membership - do you think that is the right way for the party to behave......? Do you think the membership won't take revenge?

A shambles

danesclose · Post by **danesclose** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 9:40 am

Willow904 wrote:
RobertSnozers wrote:
Willow904 wrote: So Osborne's not going anywhere. Another Atlantic Bridger, no doubt the plan is, if the UK is going out, to take down the rest of the EU with us on our way out. Signalling definite uncertainty until at least the Autumn seems guaranteed to cause the remaining 27 countries as much instability as possible. No doubt the vultures are already circling to make as much gain out of the ensuing mayhem as possible.

Btw, what's the right way for a shadow cabinet minister to behave if they disagree with the direction taken by their leader in response to a momentous political event?
We'll never know as the coup was clearly planned before that momentous political event.
'Clearly planned'?

Surely that's just your opinion based on gossip and your own biased opinion of various Labour MPs. And you're entitled to your opinion, but the fact remains that Corbyn has set out his vision of how Labour should deal with the Brexit vote and cabinet ministers have subsequently resigned. If they disagree with their leader's vision, what other option is open to them? The truth is, we cannot know if this would have happened if remain won. I suspect not, the 'usual suspects' would not have been enough. No one knows what Labour supporters want to do next, MPs must act according to their own instincts and if those instincts aren't in line with Corbyn's what action is open to them other than to resign and disagree from the backbenches?

The point is, from reading that Telegraph article, is that whatever Corbyn said in the aftermath of the referendum, and whatever the result, some MPs were looking to orchestrate a move against his leadership.
If Remain had won, the political gossip was that Cameron was looking to reunite his party by bringing forward the renewal of Trident & other bills designed to put Labour on the back foot. There would have been moves against Corbyn in that instance.
Chris Bryant on the BBC this morning said that there were 3 things a leader of the Labour party had to do. The first being unite the PLP & the membership. How can any leader do that if the PLP refuse to be united? Any of them heard of democracy?
Leaving aside the merits or otherwise of such a move, it downright self-indulgently stupid to do it now.

Maeght · Post by **Maeght** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 9:41 am

I give up.

All energy used up in jumping on the 'stick it to Corbyn' bandwagon and in the meantime the tories just play with our future.

I heard the disastrous interview on Today with Chris Grayling and all I could think of was - "It's an open goal, why doesn't somebody from Labour destroy them?"

But of course the mystery Messiah hasn't yet revealed him/herself so naturally he/she must be careful because their career is so much more important than our future.

I am glad they have resigned in dribs because it is so much easier to keep a list of them. Who will be the first of them to try and say they didn't mean it?

Meanwhile, in Frankfurt they are getting really worried about a housing crisis because of all the people being transferred from London.

danesclose · Post by **danesclose** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 9:45 am

On a lighter note, The Daily Mash has this take on the Referendum Vote:

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/soci ... 0625109816" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 9:46 am

James Lyons
James Lyons‏ @STJamesl

Filling shadow Cabinet with Corbynistas will fuel resignations, predicts neutral Labour source.

I so wish I was a member of the SNP or even the Libdems right now. I agree with their party's leaders responses to the referendum more than my own and both have made much more substantial and statesmanlike speeches than the leader of the Labour party. While those Labour members on the left get indignant about process and the unfairness of Corbyn being unable to retain the confidence of the PLP, none of them seem to be willing to accept the central point - 63% of Labour supporters wanted to remain in the EU while the party leader has wanted to leave for much of his career. I can't speak for anyone else, but for me this is about an awful lot more than his being 'lacklustre'. I felt thoroughly let down by his speech on Saturday.

Maeght · Post by **Maeght** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 9:54 am

From BTL on the Andrew Sparrow blog:

InTheKitchen 24m ago

it truly is the Twit Olympics over there in GB.

danesclose · Post by **danesclose** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 9:59 am

List of appointments to the Shadow Cabinet:

: 2016-06-27_095741.jpg (94.07 KiB) Viewed 12228 times

Maeght · Post by **Maeght** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 10:04 am

https://mainlymacro.blogspot.co.uk/2016 ... ister.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Have read the following bit about Boris before but still like it:

'Max Hastings, a well known journalist, historian, Conservative and former boss of Johnson, wrote four years ago that if Boris Johnson is the answer, “there is something desperately wrong with the question.” It is worth quoting later lines from that article:

“If the day ever comes that Boris Johnson becomes tenant of Downing Street, I shall be among those packing my bags for a new life in Buenos Aires or suchlike, because it means that Britain has abandoned its last pretensions to be a serious country.”

“I would not trust him with my wife nor – from painful experience – my wallet.”

“His chaotic public persona is not an act – he is, indeed, manically disorganised about everything except his own image management. He is also a far more ruthless, and frankly nastier, figure than the public appreciates.”

“I would not take Boris's word about whether it is Monday or Tuesday.” '

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 10:04 am

Pat Glass is a very sound appointment.

Lots of experience in, y'know the world of education itself, and very impressive on the Edu Select Committee last time round.

The Clive Lewis one is interesting too - Territorial Army and three month tour of Afghanistan.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 10:07 am

Willow904 wrote:
James Lyons
James Lyons‏ @STJamesl

Filling shadow Cabinet with Corbynistas will fuel resignations, predicts neutral Labour source.
I so wish I was a member of the SNP or even the Libdems right now. I agree with their party's leaders responses to the referendum more than my own and both have made much more substantial and statesmanlike speeches than the leader of the Labour party. While those Labour members on the left get indignant about process and the unfairness of Corbyn being unable to retain the confidence of the PLP, none of them seem to be willing to accept the central point - 63% of Labour supporters wanted to remain in the EU while the party leader has wanted to leave for much of his career. I can't speak for anyone else, but for me this is about an awful lot more than his being 'lacklustre'. I felt thoroughly let down by his speech on Saturday.

But the SNP can make the comments they did because they spoeak for one region that was clear in the vote and it plays into the hands of having a second inpendence referendum. The Lib Dems have taken a strong position but they have not set out how they will be able to deliver what they want - if Corbyn had done the same he would have been crucified anew for not listening to the 'voters'

The arguments seem to be on two areas

He is not listenting to the voters on immigration
He was not sufficiently pro-remain during and after

These are difficult to square.....

The fiorst one I have already expolaiuned above is completely nonsensical in most cases and is used as an excuse by local MPs for doing a very bad job in explaining that in places where there is no immigration, it is unlikely that iimmigrants were to blame for anything

Secondly, the refrendum was lost. I do not find any indication from what I have seen or read that Corbyn was to blame for the situation. His was/is a sceptical remain and actually he gave one of the most realistic visions of the future....IN but really push for reform.

In my view he was also right to asdk for A50 to be invoked as soon as possible. Not doing so is I think just delaying the pain, infuriating the EU and making us look completely untrustworthy......it also highlights the fact that the Brexit lot do not have a plan.....do you think delaying A50 will gove us time for a change of heart?

I did find his speech lacking passion...that is how he is and if we had a politician with more charisma, the same policies and the same direction then I would support them...until that person appears then I will stick

PS He was elected by a majority of party members...his position on the EU was well known. Does that not count for anything?

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 10:11 am

NonOxCol wrote:OK then, regarding Corbyn. Here's a two-week old grenade for anyone who thinks the PLP's behaviour yesterday and today might actually have been driven by principle or the national interest:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06 ... litz-afte/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I've been wondering what the line would have been if remain had won, which was surely what they expected. Presumably that it was too close.

It would have been bad enough in that situation, but they should have called it off in the interests of the country.

I'll never believe that they've acted in protest at his response to the result, they'd have needed time to think about it. Very few of them would have the guts to take the Lammy line, imo.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 10:14 am

RobertSnozers wrote:
Willow904 wrote:
James Lyons
James Lyons‏ @STJamesl

Filling shadow Cabinet with Corbynistas will fuel resignations, predicts neutral Labour source.
I so wish I was a member of the SNP or even the Libdems right now. I agree with their party's leaders responses to the referendum more than my own and both have made much more substantial and statesmanlike speeches than the leader of the Labour party. While those Labour members on the left get indignant about process and the unfairness of Corbyn being unable to retain the confidence of the PLP, none of them seem to be willing to accept the central point - 63% of Labour supporters wanted to remain in the EU while the party leader has wanted to leave for much of his career. I can't speak for anyone else, but for me this is about an awful lot more than his being 'lacklustre'. I felt thoroughly let down by his speech on Saturday.
I get that you want the UK to stay in the EU. The country voted not to. Clearly they were wrong, but that's democracy. There was a referendum and our side lost. It cannot easily be undone. It's easy for Farron, his party will never be in charge of anything again, and they have always been united in their stance on Europe. It's equally easy for Sturgeon, although her party is pretty divided and a lot of Scots are horrified at the prospect of another indyref.

Have any of the rebels actually resigned on the basis of wanting the party to declare that it will stay in the EU?

Not that I've noticed.
Corbyn needed to campaign harder to win the referendum by listening to those concerned with immigration and convincing them to vote remain. He is the party. Other MPs have no influence over how their constituents are informed on the case for Remain.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 10:18 am

gilsey wrote: I've been wondering what the line would have been if remain had won, which was surely what they expected. Presumably that it was too close.

It would have been bad enough in that situation, but they should have called it off in the interests of the country.

I'll never believe that they've acted in protest at his response to the result, they'd have needed time to think about it. Very few of them would have the guts to take the Lammy line, imo.

If Remain had won, Cameron would not have resigned and the coup would have been out on hold until such time as Cameron stepped down. IMO of course. Would have made no sense at all to run against Corbyn at that point.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 10:20 am

Project Fear eh?

Barclays and RBS shares suspended from trading after tanking more than 8%

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/busin ... 05196.html

Trading in Barclays and RBS shares was suspended on Monday morning following heavy losses on the London Stock Exchange.

Barclays share price was down 10.3 per cent and RBS was down 15 per cent on Monday, triggering automatic circuit breakers that kick in when a share price falls more than 8 per cent.

fedup59 · Post by **fedup59** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 10:20 am

The referendum vote was to leave. I'm not happy about it but that's tough I actually believe that if the publicly stated, or inferred but believed by voters, outcome of this would be a straightforward in or out decision then that is what it should be. If weasel words, hidden in the detail, can be used to ducK it then the space between political power and democratic choice becomes a vacuum that destroys any pretence that democracy is our live political system.

I hate to say it but that even pushes me towards arguing that the SNP don't have the right to be arguing for a second ref and I live in Scotland and want to stay in the EU. I also happen to believe in the democratic rights of the people to make crap choices.