Tuesday 28th June 2016

Hairychap · Post by **Hairychap** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 7:03 pm

yahyah wrote:I've also realised why we had nearly 400 guests viewing at one time on FTN last week.
Suspect it was probably a lot of right wing Brexit boors who'd been given our web address and told to watch the lefties cry.

Hey there,
I've been lurking about everything since the Guardian blog linked to you a while back. Been a bt too shy to contribute but I do really enjoy the thought provoking discussion. Thanks folks and keep it up.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 7:05 pm

Hairychap wrote:
yahyah wrote:I've also realised why we had nearly 400 guests viewing at one time on FTN last week.
Suspect it was probably a lot of right wing Brexit boors who'd been given our web address and told to watch the lefties cry.
Hey there,
I've been lurking about everything since the Guardian blog linked to you a while back. Been a bt too shy to contribute but I do really enjoy the thought provoking discussion. Thanks folks and keep it up.

Hello, there!

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 7:06 pm

Hairychap wrote:
yahyah wrote:I've also realised why we had nearly 400 guests viewing at one time on FTN last week.
Suspect it was probably a lot of right wing Brexit boors who'd been given our web address and told to watch the lefties cry.
Hey there,
I've been lurking about everything since the Guardian blog linked to you a while back. Been a bt too shy to contribute but I do really enjoy the thought provoking discussion. Thanks folks and keep it up.

Howdy, welcome.
You got any biscuits, please?

Post by **letsskiptotheleft** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 7:08 pm

Heartening that Europeans have more political intelligence than ours, Lithuanian president quite succinct when she says the EU became an hostage to a few politicians whims..

What a bloody mess..

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 7:08 pm

Liz McInnes has now stood down despite voting for Jeremy Corbyn in today's No Confidence vote. (BBC)

Post by **letsskiptotheleft** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 7:13 pm

Suppose most have seen this, off on a tangent a bit, football, bloody hell eh..

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.indepe ... html%3famp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

55DegreesNorth · Post by **55DegreesNorth** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 7:13 pm

Dear Member,

I wanted to write to you following the EU referendum and the subsequent issues that have emerged from this.

The overall decision to vote ‘Leave’ by the United Kingdom last Thursday will have significant repercussions across a wide range of issues and for a long time into the future. Having supported a remain vote, I am of course disappointed at the outcome, as I know a number of Party Members and Constituents are who have contacted me over the last few days. Newcastle itself voted very narrowly to remain, however the result demonstrates the difference in opinion that exists.

A number of constituents have asked me about re-running the referendum or for Parliament to block Brexit. The decision leaves the country in uncharted territory and there will be a large amount of discussion and debate about what sort of country we want the United Kingdom to be outside of the European Union. I am not opposed to the second referendum idea once it becomes clearer what Brexit actually means in practice.

The Prime Minister has announced that he is to resign following the election of a new leader of the Conservative Party. The country will have a new Prime Minister in September. There is a real chance a general election could follow this.

I also wanted to write to you about recent developments in the Labour Party. A motion of no confidence in Jeremy Corbyn as Leader was voted on today by the PLP in a secret ballot.

The motion of no confidence has been tabled based on a range of issues, including the possibility of an early election, the performance in the EU referendum and wider concerns over leadership. The ballot is an expression of opinion by the PLP. The results were announced as 172 votes for the motion, 40 against.

The ballot of The Parliamentary Labour Party is an expression of opinion. By itself it is not binding on the leader or the wider party.

You will appreciate the situation over the last few days has been fast moving. I do however remain keen to give Party Members the opportunity to let me know your views, on both the leadership issue and the EU referendum. I have chosen not to speak out publicly, and as you know I have supported Jeremy’s leadership since he was elected in September, believing the constructive thing to do was to try to make things work, which is what I have always strived to do, whether as Chief Whip or as a backbench MP. As was the case with the Syria vote, I want Members to have the chance to let me know their views.

I want to finish with a word of thanks for everyone who has helped out over the past few months in the Local Government and Police and Crime Commissioner elections, as well as the EU referendum. It seems possible that this Government may not last until 2020 and that the Party should have it in mind that we may have to gear up for an election in the near future.

Finally, thank you to everyone who contacted me following the tragic murder of my Parliamentary colleague, Jo Cox MP. I have asked the Party Executive to observe a minute silence in commemoration of Jo at our next meeting.

With very best wishes,

Nick

Rt Hon Nick Brown MP
Member of Parliament for Newcastle upon Tyne East

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 7:17 pm

Just too, too much hate in this country now

Car boot sale organiser sparks outrage with online rant MOCKING the disabled

http://www.cornishguardian.co.uk/cornis ... story.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 7:20 pm

HindleA wrote:If tensions are high it is because we all give a fuck

As Conficius said(not sure if direct quote)

You're right A, and TCC and Gidiot clearly don't.

I've come round to ohso's way of thinking today. There is nothing democratic about this referendum, it is the ultimate in divide and rule.

No-one should be falling out with their friends and family because they 'voted the wrong way'. The leavers aren't going to get what they want either.

We the 99% have been screwed over by the tories, probably for keeps this time.

Falling out in the Labour party? Better still for them. No blame on Corbyn from me, the damage was done May 2015.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 7:21 pm

Hairychap wrote:
yahyah wrote:I've also realised why we had nearly 400 guests viewing at one time on FTN last week.
Suspect it was probably a lot of right wing Brexit boors who'd been given our web address and told to watch the lefties cry.
Hey there,
I've been lurking about everything since the Guardian blog linked to you a while back. Been a bt too shy to contribute but I do really enjoy the thought provoking discussion. Thanks folks and keep it up.

Hi there HairyChap

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 7:28 pm

Hairychap wrote:
yahyah wrote:I've also realised why we had nearly 400 guests viewing at one time on FTN last week.
Suspect it was probably a lot of right wing Brexit boors who'd been given our web address and told to watch the lefties cry.
Hey there,
I've been lurking about everything since the Guardian blog linked to you a while back. Been a bt too shy to contribute but I do really enjoy the thought provoking discussion. Thanks folks and keep it up.

Welcome, Hairychap.

I've got Lavazza coffee on the hob and Murroughs Welsh Tea in the pot; there is fruit cake and some biscuits (I keep 'em for CitizenJA just in case, like. She can't get enough biscuits, so watch yours. I would.)

Back to my Queenship.

As it's going so well, I am now finding things to do for redundant politicians.

There's some slimy chap who pops in every week, wants me to call him "Dave". He's leaving apparently, and we will need a new picker-upper of litter.
One has so many rooms and so many guests the palaces get so untidy, especially when that oik little Zara married has his pizza nights with his rather hulking pals.
I gather this "Dave" is a bit of a creep, so having him crawl about on the floor seems about right. He has a wife who runs a little shop - just the thing for the gift shop at Windsor.

I have been advised that some bod whose Papa flogs wallpaper will be looking for a job soon. Evidently, he was so hopeless at folding towels in Selfridges they'd only allow him to re-fold them once the experts had shown him how.
Obviously, anyone who comes from "trade" and works in Selfridges can't be much use. Liberty or Fortnums are passable, but Selfridges?
I don't think we have much use for this one.
Maybe he could keep the fires going at Balmoral and shovel up the coke?

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 7:28 pm

I really need to come off twitter its depressing me something awful .

First we'll get the Poles out, then the gays.
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TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 7:35 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:I really need to come off twitter its depressing me something awful .

First we'll get the Poles out, then the gays.
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Mrs TE has a fine art in filtering racists and defriending people on Facebook who repost their stuff.

The Internet has become a publishing house for morons.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 7:43 pm

Leadership Elections: Conservative Party
Published Tuesday, June 28, 2016

This House of Commons Library briefing paper sets out the current rules for election of a Conservative Party leader,
and the background to their introduction.

On 24 June 2016, the day after the UK’s referendum on its continued membership of the European Union, David Cameron
announced his resignation. He stated that in his view, the aim should be to have a new Prime Minister in place by the start
of the Conservative Party conference in October.

The 1922 Committee met on 27 June and has recommended that the election should be completed by 2 September 2016.
It has recommended that nominations open on 29 June and close at noon on 30 June. The timetable for electing a new
needs to be agreed by the board of the Conservative Party, and the full 1922 Committee.

Leadership Elections: Conservative Party
Standard Note: SN/PC/1366
Last updated: 7 December 2005

http://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ ... fullreport" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 7:45 pm

Francis Beaufort – the guy with the wind scale - was a man who did much to develop Britain’s 200 coast-guard stations. An Irishman of French descent, he spent much of his childhood in Wales and much of his professional life at sea, before his later career in London and ultimately death in Hove. Then there's the Frenchman named Marc, who fled from Revolutionary France having unwisely revealed his royalist sympathies in public. This particular Frenchman arrived in England in the last years of the 18th Century via a stint in the US, to marry his English wife, Sophia. They lived in London and Portsmouth where they produced their third child and first son. They christened him Isambard Kingdom, and he became one of the world’s greatest engineers.

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 7:46 pm

We seek them here we seek them there,
The blairites seek one everywhere!
Are they with ALastair? searching so late?
For a damn elusive candidate!

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 7:47 pm

London antiBrexit demo going ahead despite having been postponed.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 7:49 pm

the great wikipedia wrote:Farage was born in Downe, England, as the son of Barbara (née Stevens) and Guy Justus Oscar Farage.[12][13][14] The Farage name comes from a distant Huguenot ancestor.[15] One of his great-grandfathers was born to German parents who migrated to London in the 19th century

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 7:56 pm

He's weak, unelectable. So who should challenge him? Anyone... Anyone? Given the Conservatives timetable for their leadership the PLP need to get their finger out. If I remember correctly Harman decided on the length of the process last time, was that correct?

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 7:58 pm

CJA now by 9th September,apparently,no idea why.

Post by **refitman** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 7:58 pm

PorFavor wrote:
JonnyT1234 wrote:
NonOxCol wrote:Singer Jamelia apparently racially abused....

...there's a rather disturbing twist to this one.

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Knowing a number of the members and former members of the organisation involved, I'm afraid this doesn't disturb me. It is probably quite routine. That's what disturbs me.
Yes - that is very disturbing.

Edited to add - Oh, bumboils.

That was quite impressive PF

Post by **letsskiptotheleft** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 7:59 pm

After voting for Brexit Sunderland now worries about its car industry. Believe me I am not getting any pleasure from these links, no told you so.

Where were the big hitters in the debates, you'd have more chance of Tim Martin of weatherspoons than a big manufacturing firm in any debate, a guy selling fish than a boss who had to consider 10,000 plus decently paid manufacturing jobs, again, what a bloody mess.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.ft.c ... b487ebd80a" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 8:03 pm

I suspect a Dr.Frankenstein manoeuvre to create the perfect candidate,just having a bit of difficulty in disguising the bolt in the neck.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 8:03 pm

Apologies, haven't been able to catch up on situation plus forum since seeing headline (only) but final comment from me today is that this isn't a vote of no confidence in just Corbyn, it's a vote of no confidence in the Labour membership. The fact that not a single PLP member involved realises this just demonstrates even further how completely bloody hopeless they are. The Labour Party is utterly, utterly doomed.

Post by **letsskiptotheleft** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 8:04 pm

Never fear, we have got our bloody country back!

http://news.sky.com/story/1718832/brexi ... giant-visa" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 8:06 pm

Delete

Edit: accidentally double posted. Bit tricky using the forum when you've got about 15 s of Internet at a tube station before the train pulls out...

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 8:09 pm

ephemerid wrote:
HindleA wrote:
ephemerid wrote:
That's do naicely.

Thenk you, peasants.

You're not there yet,we haven't followed the correct procedure.

Basic grammatical and spelling error brought on by rapid fire panic/excitement syndrome.

You, Hindle, are appointed Lord High Pedanticus of Marathonia, and are now in charge of all procedural protocol.

(Unless I say otherwise - I am the Queen, after all)

T.Latimer, Esq. is appointed Lord of the Bedchamber, on account of having to be in, er, bed.

Lady Ohso is appointed chief cook and batterer of recalcitrant Lord High Whatevers (see above).

Mrs.Yahyah is appointed Lady Ambassadress to Italy, whence she will fetch the entire cast of Inspector Montalbano for me to look at.

Sir Temulkar can be ones' scribe and record ones' reign for posterity.

The Royal Highness MBC is now Keeper of Truth Ferrets, and we'll shoot the corgis and have 'em for lunch (a pie, please, Ohso)

T.Clanger is to be Seether-In-Chief, with the specific brief of being deeply foul to anyone called Murdoch, Barclay, or Rothermere.

This could work.

As he may soon be retired, that nice Mr.Corbyn can supply elderberry wine and raspberry jam to the Royal Household.

I'm hoping to find a spot for Mr.Hodgson, but as he's so useless we can't have him charge of the Royal Tournament. Ideas please.

You will all be paid the minimum wage, less my percentage (99%), and be expected to do beck and call stuff 24 hours a day.

That is all.

(I get to keep all the diamonds, so don't get your hopes up there, girls. You can keep the frocks. I intend to wear baggy trousers)

I hope my duties don't include being groom of the stool.

I have enough shite to deal with from the Fishpointer General. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groom_of_the_Stool" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 8:09 pm

HindleA wrote:CJA now by 9th September,apparently,no idea why.

Thank you. They didn't bother updating the Research Briefing page on the Parliamentary website.

Post by **refitman** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 8:10 pm

Hairychap wrote:
yahyah wrote:I've also realised why we had nearly 400 guests viewing at one time on FTN last week.
Suspect it was probably a lot of right wing Brexit boors who'd been given our web address and told to watch the lefties cry.
Hey there,
I've been lurking about everything since the Guardian blog linked to you a while back. Been a bt too shy to contribute but I do really enjoy the thought provoking discussion. Thanks folks and keep it up.

Welcome

**waves**

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 8:21 pm

@Toby as head of procedures I hearby suspend such procedures pertaining to your areas of concern and deem them unnecessary subject to a reasonable amount of adequate remuneration to my goodself to maintain their suspension.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 8:24 pm

HindleA wrote:I suspect a Dr.Frankenstein manoeuvre to create the perfect candidate,just having a bit of difficulty in disguising the bolt in the neck.

I refer you to my earlier comment about a certain Tony Blair having some time on his hands... [pace Steve Bell]

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 8:24 pm

Anyone called Barclay, Murdoch or Rothermere here? I've got some foul seething needs doing.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 8:24 pm

refitman wrote:
PorFavor wrote:
JonnyT1234 wrote: Knowing a number of the members and former members of the organisation involved, I'm afraid this doesn't disturb me. It is probably quite routine. That's what disturbs me.
Yes - that is very disturbing.

Edited to add - Oh, bumboils.
That was quite impressive PF

Yes - I do my best to come up with something a bit different! Thanks for sorting it out for me!

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 8:25 pm

Tobes - being in bed absolves you of any stool duties.
Just don't get up.

Mwah.

AAW - it's lovely to have you back. Have some cake.

I have not been using Twitter much for a few weeks now, maybe an odd RT now and then, because it's just horrible. The G is even worse.
There are people I have had a lot of respect for who have surprised me over all this.

That's why I'm so grateful for this place.
I know we've been a bit snippy with each other occasionally, but generally we can agree to disagree most of the time.

Thanks to all of you.

I'm off to bed with some hefty analgesia on board, so my Country (of which I am Queen, lest you forget) will have to await instructions.

(This is ALL HindleA's fault. Now that we can't blame Corbyn for everything any more. What IS it with these nice blokes? Coming here and causing trouble......)

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 8:26 pm

What a bunch of liars. I guess Carswell's defence would be "But we're not in government"

danesclose · Post by **danesclose** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 8:28 pm

JonnyT1234 wrote:Apologies, haven't been able to catch up on situation plus forum since seeing headline (only) but final comment from me today is that this isn't a vote of no confidence in just Corbyn, it's a vote of no confidence in the Labour membership. The fact that not a single PLP member involved realises this just demonstrates even further how completely bloody hopeless they are. The Labour Party is utterly, utterly doomed.

I've been a member of the Labour party on & off since 1979 (Thatcher winning made me join). For the record, at the last leadership election I didn't vote for Corbyn. However if there is another, quite unnecessary, leadership election, and I haven't resigned my membership, I think I will be voting for him. Mainly because I thought the Labour party was supposed to be a democratic organisation, currently based on the principle of one member, one vote. At the moment it seems that many MPs feel that their vote is worth the vote of approximately 2,000 members. However when the next election comes around these same MPs will expect the membership to spend hours of free time door knocking, walking the streets, trying to get people to vote for the Labour candidate.

To rub salt in the wounds, a former left wing-council leading "comrade" of Corbyn, turned shameless money grubbing Blairite who prostituted himself for Murdoch's money, has the audacity to insult members who continue to support the democratically elected leader of the party.

The Tories must be pissing themselves laughing.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 8:28 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:Anyone called Barclay, Murdoch or Rothermere here? I've got some foul seething needs doing.

They are all some of my middle names,mum had a thing about newspaper proprietors.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 8:30 pm

Nato membership would not be affected, but the organisation’s secretary general, Jens Stoltenberg, made it clear on Wednesday that one of Britain’s key security roles was as a bridge between the EU and the alliance. That bridge will be gone.

“I think it will diminish UK influence in Nato as one of the things it has brought to Nato is its ability to influence and bring along other European member states,” said Malcolm Chalmers, the deputy director general of the Royal United Services Institute.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... -the-world" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Brexit. The gift that keeps on taking.

martinson · Post by **martinson** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 8:30 pm

I've just seen that David Blanchflower, one of the economists that I found made most sense, has pulled out of his advisory role to the Labour Party because Jeremy Corbyn has not resigned when faced with the numbers in the vote of confidence. I can't accept this reasoning. Surely what Corbyn has to do is to accept the position of the PLP but also respect those in the party that voted for him and his only option then is to place himself in another contest. He can't resign without sticking two fingers up to the party members that voted for him and indeed should not be asked to. Let the contest begin and be done with. The current situation is agonising, debilitating and unnecessary. As a broad church the 'flavour' of the party will swing from left to right depending on current circumstances and MP personalities and will always have tensions that would ordinarily be managed. I think that the members now feel that the party is too close to conservatism, capitalism, new-liberalism call it what you will and that a correction is needed. We need to be realistic, some of the PLP simply do not represent the Labour Party membership. They appear to want to carve a political career for the sake of it and not foremost to serve their constituency and often behave disreputably. I don't appreciate that approach to politics and if their constituencies recognise this and wish to replace them then I would support that. We need a correction.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 8:31 pm

HindleA wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote:Anyone called Barclay, Murdoch or Rothermere here? I've got some foul seething needs doing.

They are all some of my middle names,mum had a thing about newspaper proprietors.

Ha! Reminds me of a joke I knew before I got too dismal to tell it.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 8:31 pm

ephemerid wrote:Tobes - being in bed absolves you of any stool duties.
Just don't get up.

Mwah.

AAW - it's lovely to have you back. Have some cake.

I have not been using Twitter much for a few weeks now, maybe an odd RT now and then, because it's just horrible. The G is even worse.
There are people I have had a lot of respect for who have surprised me over all this.

That's why I'm so grateful for this place.
I know we've been a bit snippy with each other occasionally, but generally we can agree to disagree most of the time.

Thanks to all of you.

I'm off to bed with some hefty analgesia on board, so my Country (of which I am Queen, lest you forget) will have to await instructions.

(This is ALL HindleA's fault. Now that we can't blame Corbyn for everything any more. What IS it with these nice blokes? Coming here and causing trouble......)

Thank you fro the welcome back Queeny - can I work in the stables & take the corgis for walks ?

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 8:32 pm

Constitutional crisis as the Queen pisses off after a few hours after being non-crowned.Will.this never end..

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 8:41 pm

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
MSNBC reports on postponed demo ntl taking place in London

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 8:41 pm

If Corbyn resigns he would have to get nominations to go back on the ballot paper, which it looks like he will not get. If he hangs on till The Letter (50 signatures) goes in & leadership contest is called he will automatically be on ballot with no need for nomination

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 8:42 pm

Michael Crick ;

Good source says Andy Burnham about to quit Shadow Cabinet, and three people appointed to it yesterday

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 8:42 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:
Nato membership would not be affected, but the organisation’s secretary general, Jens Stoltenberg, made it clear on Wednesday that one of Britain’s key security roles was as a bridge between the EU and the alliance. That bridge will be gone.

“I think it will diminish UK influence in Nato as one of the things it has brought to Nato is its ability to influence and bring along other European member states,” said Malcolm Chalmers, the deputy director general of the Royal United Services Institute.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... -the-world" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Brexit. The gift that keeps on taking.

Brother works for NATO in Brussels.

Hobiejoe · Post by **Hobiejoe** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 8:47 pm

RobertSnozers wrote:Evening all.

I have nothing to say.

Not sure why I started this post, really

Because, paradoxically, it is very much worth saying.

TR'sGhost · Post by **TR'sGhost** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 8:47 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:
http://www.newstatesman.com/science-tec ... ive-brexit
UK scientists receive close to £1bn annually for research from the EU – a testament to the quality and influence of the work done on British soil. Between 2007 and 2013, the UK sector supported EU projects by spending €5.4bn, and was rewarded in return with funds of around €8.8bn; it’s a give and take relationship that has seen growth for both.

Speaking to the BBC, Sir Paul Nurse, Nobel Prize winner and director of The Francis Crick Institute said: “Being in the EU gives us access to ideas, people and to investment in science." The Royal Society reports that researchers at UK universities house more than 31,000 researchers of EU origin. The danger of losing much of that support is now imminent.
Forgive me for asking but is this version of "democracy" really worth it?

There are times when you have to ask "what do you mean by 'democracy' and 'democracy that enables who to do what'".

Ancient Athens was democratic, so long as you were one of the wealthier citizens, not one of the thousands of "tools with voices" they owned.

The big problem with referendums is they are fine for handling some issues, but hopeless as a way of making a sensible decision about others.

The Scottish independence referendum was the best way to settle that question, however temporarily. But allowing a referendum on something as complicated and as little understood by most people as the EU, especially at a time racial tensions were increasing and the government had been pursuing divide and rule politics for six years was unwise. Especially when it was primarily intended to be a Cameron coup to outflank Nigel, IDS and the 'bastards' as John Major called them in the hope of getting a few more votes in 2015.

Then to allow a referendum that could change the UK's direction for ever and destroy us economically as well to be turned into an anti-immigrant/foreigner protest was more unwise.

Many things are simply too complex to be opened to a decision made by people without the necessary background knowledge or depth of understanding of the issues and the consequences of the possible outcome. I'm not being elitist, simply saying that most people genuinely don't have the time to study treaties, economic reports, trading figures, currency markets and so on. So they vote with their gut feeling, and as Carl Sagan said "I try not to think with my gut. If I'm serious about understanding the world, thinking with anything besides my brain, as tempting as that might be, is likely to get me into trouble."

For a 'natural party of government' led by people born wealthy, with the best educations money can buy, connections all over the business and financial world and access to endless expert advice on every subject under the sun the assorted chosen representatives of our ruling class have turned out to be extremely poor value for money both for them and us.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 8:52 pm

The moment pro-EU protest #LondonStays interrupts a live Channel 4 News broadcast at Westminster.

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TR'sGhost · Post by **TR'sGhost** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 8:53 pm

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
Rebecca wrote:If there is a general election soon I daresay the plp will be asking for donations.
Depends on the Brexit position they take. If they adopt the Tim Farron option they may be buried under an avalanche of cash.

The madness has to be stopped by somebody as no government (not even Farage) could leave the single market.

I think he could and would. Running a banana republic on behalf of themselves and their mates is the sort of thing ambitious demagogues of his kind all too often end up doing.

I genuinely think his ambition is now boundless. His current games in the European Parliament are all part of pushing him into the limelight and keeping him there as part of a strategy to increase his support amongst the population and make the People's Army's "revolution" permanent by propelling him into a position of power in the UK. And he knows racism and hate is a very useful tool for that.

His underling Nutall said something, on Friday I think, about how useful the people's anger could be.