Tuesday 28th June 2016

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 7:00 am

Can you imagine a Tory government effectively taking us out of Europe and then establishing that they didn't have a majority after all before calling the referendum? Even if you can the sad fact is that the PLP also voted for it after the election. I truly despair.

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 7:03 am

As for Cameron he shall come back from Europe with his instructions. Is there a hog's roast on this evening's menu?

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 7:23 am

Good morning everyone

An emotional and difficult day yesterday as the party most of us support is wrapped in a crisis, most of it of its own making - pretty much the message of the time really

Today though more important things are happening

The EU itself is in an existential crisis and will be looking to protect itself. We will find out later today or tomorrow what that means for the UK

If the EU are kind to us they will give us time to invoke A50 and then let us have some time to see if we can extricate ourselves from this sorry mess - however unlikely that this is

If the EU think it is better for them then Cameron will be left in no uncertain terms that delaying will cause exit terms to be much harsher than they would be and then he has a bit of a problem....as do we all

Personally, I think delay is only delaying the inevitable (does that make a traitor as well TE?) but we will see

Another day at the brink

Remember, this is a TORY caused issue - with very little due to Labour.....blame lands mainly at the feet of the triumvirate of incompetence - Cameron/Gove and Johnson - a different decision or actions from any of them could have prevented this!

Looks like they are getting away with it though

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 7:38 am

howsillyofme1 wrote:Good morning everyone

An emotional and difficult day yesterday as the party most of us support is wrapped in a crisis, most of it of its own making - pretty much the message of the time really

Today though more important things are happening

The EU itself is in an existential crisis and will be looking to protect itself. We will find out later today or tomorrow what that means for the UK

If the EU are kind to us they will give us time to invoke A50 and then let us have some time to see if we can extricate ourselves from this sorry mess - however unlikely that this is

If the EU think it is better for them then Cameron will be left in no uncertain terms that delaying will cause exit terms to be much harsher than they would be and then he has a bit of a problem....as do we all

Personally, I think delay is only delaying the inevitable (does that make a traitor as well TE?) but we will see

Another day at the brink

Remember, this is a TORY caused issue - with very little due to Labour.....blame lands mainly at the feet of the triumvirate of incompetence - Cameron/Gove and Johnson - a different decision or actions from any of them could have prevented this!

Looks like they are getting away with it though

More important things indeed.

However the BBC radio news (at least on 6 Music) is leading on Roy Hodgson. Which, in my opinion, helps explain why we have such an ill-informed populace. The Beeb is also coming under fire for vox-popping a racist with a swastika on his arm last night.

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 7:46 am

One thing that struck me about the little I saw of parliament yesterday was how little opprobrium was directed Cameron's way.

Postscript: ... but then they were all guilty. As I stated earlier after the election they pretty well all voted for the referendum rather than their principles.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 7:49 am

Good morning, everyone.

I am very pleased that I do not belong to any political party any more.

I would hate to be accused of being (delete as appropriate):
not socialist enough; not pro-EU enough; not realistic enough; not bloody anything enough.

Enough, already!

On the 9th. October, Our Glorious Ronsealed Pig Poking Fishpointer General That C**t Cameron will be 50 years old. Having not done a hands' turn in his privileged existence, his only achievement in his unglittering career is to make a mess of the country he professes to love. Prat.

Today, this very silly man gets to explain himself to the other EU leaders, and swerve any responsibility for what he has set in motion by insisting that the next PM is the person who is lumbered with all the work. Classy, no?

And the next PM?
The OC (Oleaginous Crabb) has decided to put himself forward for PM with Yoda (Javid) as his Chancellor sidekick.
Jeremy Hunt has come out of hiding from behind his tree and will have a punt. Mr.Popular shows zero insight yet again.
Boris might do something and Theresa may. (See what I did there?)
What a choice. Thus far.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 7:49 am

Well, I have some solace. Italy played well and won. As for everything else....

Please don't censor yourself on Brexit Willow.
Maybe it is just wishful thinking, but when the negative effects of Brexit come to fruition, if it really goes horribly bad, voters may seek vengeance at the ballot box.
'Why didn't you stop us jumping off the cliff ?'' may be the question levelled at politicians.

My hopes for Corbyn have waned, and his performance around Brexit and the way he campaigned has left me feeling very let down by him. I do not want a Labour leader who actively helps propel us over the cliff, even if it is the democratic will to jump.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 7:59 am

Bloomberg still reporting that the markets think that Brexit will be stopped

If that is so the worst is still to come

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 8:01 am

Can Hodge say anymore spurious 'facts'?

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 8:03 am

Hindle A.

My reasons for obsessing about resigning from Labour is not because I am a rampant Corbynite.
My reasons, if I do resign, are many. I do not think the party should have allowed Gisela Stuart to be so high profile in Brexit's campaigning. I am as fed up with the group around Corbyn as those who have spent every waking hour trying to undermine him.
It was done with Ed Miliband too.

How the **** these people think Labour will ever prosper when they destroy good people like Ed from within the party leaves me mind boggled.

There is one strong advantage to not being a member. When the party behaves badly you don't have to worry about whether to resign.

If I do go, I would prefer not to sniped at about it, either from those who support Corbyn, or those who don't.
My dysfunctional family caused a lot of life long problems, being part of such a dysfunctional system now, the current Labour party, is probably not a good place to be for my mental health.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 8:08 am

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The Mirror front page

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 8:13 am

Read this last night:

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle ... t-betrayal" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Heartbreaking. Also guaranteed to put/keep your anger with Cameron and the rest of his sociopathic playpen firmly in the red zone.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 8:17 am

Feel sorry for my husband. He doesn't know the England/Iceland score and is watching the recording with his breakfast.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 8:23 am

A strange bit of reporting from the Express.
The 80% is from a poll of their readers. Hardly representative of the whole population, although these days it could well be.

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mbc1955 · Post by **mbc1955** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 8:28 am

utopiandreams wrote:As for Cameron he shall come back from Europe with his instructions. Is there a hog's roast on this evening's menu?

Yes. Cameron's the hog.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 8:30 am

Normally I would be smirking at Cameron's discomfort and humiliation.
But it is just the start of something much worse.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 8:33 am

Iceland (pop.331,778 - about the size of Lewisham) has no professional football clubs, and not a lot of money.

England (pop. 53.01 Million), has 92 professional clubs, and revenues are now just over £4 Billion.

I am so glad Iceland won last night. I don't "do" football, but this is a thing I've enjoyed, much to my surprise.

I love it when an underdog gives the big bruisers a bloody nose.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 8:35 am

howsillyofme1 wrote:Bloomberg still reporting that the markets think that Brexit will be stopped

If that is so the worst is still to come

Do you have a specific source for that? Would be interested to see.

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 8:35 am

Just seen the rhyming slang Jeremy possibly throwing his hat into the ring. Yeah, yeah aside of my expected observations he clearly laid out what I expect may be the case with an exclusively Tory party appointed Prime Minister, no GE until 2020 whereas he spoke of putting the terms of European negotiations to the House. Proposals or what is offered? Either way I don't understand his reasoning, the former carrying little weight, the latter with absolutely no point whatsoever beyond a statement to the House.

Lonewolfie · Post by **Lonewolfie** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 8:38 am

howsillyofme1 wrote:Bloomberg still reporting that the markets think that Brexit will be stopped

If that is so the worst is still to come

Morfternoon...

Well at least it's all been stable so far....oh, hang on...

Global stock markets have suffered their biggest two-day rout ever, thanks to Britain’s shock decision to vote to leave the EU.
Yesterday, $930bn was wiped off the world’s stock markets, in a fresh bout of selling. That followed the rout on Friday, which destroyed $2.03 trillion of value.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/li ... iness-live

danesclose · Post by **danesclose** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 8:39 am

ephemerid wrote:Iceland (pop.331,778 - about the size of Lewisham) has no professional football clubs, and not a lot of money.

England (pop. 53.01 Million), has 92 professional clubs, and revenues are now just over £4 Billion.

I am so glad Iceland won last night. I don't "do" football, but this is a thing I've enjoyed, much to my surprise.

I love it when an underdog gives the big bruisers a bloody nose.

Iceland 2 Poundland 1.
Aah, but it was all Jeremy Corbyn's fault, donchaknow.

In all seriousness there was an excellent long read in The Guardian a couple of weeks ago about the development of the game in Iceland. Apparently when they played a friendly against Portugal, Ronalso insisted on his own dressing room! He was informed that if that was the case, the other players would need to get changed in the corridor

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 8:40 am

what is it with footballers and the word 'them'?

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 8:41 am

Regarding the "families divided" piece: mine isn't, thankfully. However, on Saturday I was in such a rotten mood I turned down an evening out with an old school friend, without explaining that this had everything to do with the referendum.

- He is from an old-fashioned family and his father was, basically, a racist. I'm fairly sure he's not, however.
- He works in the public sector but voted Tory in 2015, saying it was "the only option"
- We would have been going to a very white village in mid-Derbyshire. I would have expected to hear something that would have wound me up no end. A few years ago we went to a neighbouring village and a group of lads came in to the pub, asked us where we were from and shook our hands because it was apparently the sort of place which "burns out" the foreigners. But they weren't racist, they said.

I suppose I should mention that my area voted Leave by 60-40. This was actually narrower than I expected, seeing as I still don't know what a Remain poster even looked like, and on a long walk a few weeks ago saw not only a lot of Vote Leave placards, but a disturbing number of giant UKIP 'Take our country back' ones.

The only public place I've been since Friday is the supermarket. I would rather leave it for a week or so, but I'm not sure it will get any better as news sinks in that the immigrants are not all going home on the next DFDS.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 8:42 am

I find myself in some agreement with Jeremy Hunt.
What strange days when he sounds like a voice of calm and makes some sense.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 8:42 am

mbc1955 wrote:
utopiandreams wrote:As for Cameron he shall come back from Europe with his instructions. Is there a hog's roast on this evening's menu?
Yes. Cameron's the hog.

I love a bit of pork belly (which I can't have thanks to gallstones).

But if I could eat it, I'd draw the line there.......

What a strange country this is.
We have two main political parties - one has a leader who is not all that popular with his members, has done some dreadful things, is such a coward that he's doing a runner when the going gets tough, and many people think he should stay and sort things out; the other has a leader voted in by a landslide, who hasn't done anything wrong, has increased his party's vote share in local elections, and many people think he should go and not sort out anything at all.

Bonkers.

And now the nation has decided to leave a successful trading bloc and a union which has done a lot of good for the country, nobody has a plan of any ilk, both main parties are fighting like ferrets in a sack, and quantities of people are regretting their Leave vote.

Bonkerser.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 8:43 am

tinyclanger2 wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:Bloomberg still reporting that the markets think that Brexit will be stopped

If that is so the worst is still to come
Do you have a specific source for that? Would be interested to see.

It was on their website.....can't find the link now (they've updated it) but it is on there somewhere

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 8:45 am

Some good news, non political.

Radio 4 reporting some good results on brain tumours from using liquid/soluble aspirin.

Lonewolfie · Post by **Lonewolfie** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 8:47 am

utopiandreams wrote:Just seen the rhyming slang Jeremy possibly throwing his hat into the ring. Yeah, yeah aside of my expected observations he clearly laid out what I expect may be the case with an exclusively Tory party appointed Prime Minister, no GE until 2020 whereas he spoke of putting the terms of European negotiations to the House. Proposals or what is offered? Either way I don't understand his reasoning, the former carrying little weight, the latter with absolutely no point whatsoever beyond a statement to the House.

I broke out into a bit of a cold sweat when I read something about that last night, as it included a commitment to stay in the EU....so, who to vote for in the following scenario....

Labour/Corbyn determined to activate the exit

BJ/Gove determined to activate exit but not care two hoots about the effects on the real economy

Rhyming Slang/Ms May (or may not) on a blatant 'we're not leaving, it was all a horrible dream' Remain ticket

By the looks of that though it's already unravelled

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 8:49 am

Why do the media let the Tories get away with saying we can be in the Single Market whilst avoiding free movement

This is so incredibly unlikely that it should be challenged massively....

The only way I can see it even being remotely too if there are EU wide changes to free movement and that the UK benefits from that at some point in the future as part of the single market

danesclose · Post by **danesclose** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 8:50 am

Osborne quoted this morning:

We need a plan as a country to get ourselves out of this, while respecting the decision of the British people......It was not the responsibility of those who wanted to remain in the EU to explain what plan we would follow if we voted to quit the EU.

Unbelievable

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 8:51 am

I do hope our David is locked and loaded for his trip to Europe. He doesn't need one up the spout today, just one in the chamber shall do nicely.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 8:51 am

How many who voted Corbyn last year would now reluctantly accept that, their point having been made, a new leader from the mainstream of the Labour party is now required?

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 8:54 am

Tony Blair manages to keep a sense of humour

From the Guardian:

''As the conversation turns to the Middle East Blair is interrupted by a heckler ''You are a liar ! You are going to jail ! You propped up the Saudi funding of 9/11''

Blair stays silent until the man is ejected. ''That's one I haven't heard before'' he says.

It is hard to know who is more tin foil hat, the nihilist left or the nihilist pro-Brexit right.
Don't they usually blame 'the Zionists' or the Israelis for 9/11 ?

danesclose · Post by **danesclose** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 8:56 am

SpinningHugo wrote:How many who voted Cornyn last year would now reluctantly accept that, their point having been made, a new leader from the mainstreAm of the Labour party is now required?

A patronising "Yes, you've made your point, now run along and let the big boys look after things" type of thing?

And by the way, his name is spelt Corbyn

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 9:00 am

SpinningHugo wrote:How many who voted Cornyn last year would now reluctantly accept that, their point having been made, a new leader from the mainstreAm of the Labour party is now required?

I am coming to that view. I only voted Corbyn because none of the other candidates were what was needed/inspiring in my view. There was a small temptation to vote for Cooper 'because we need a woman Labour leader' but she did not inspire any enthusiasm. Her performance in one of the debates, talking about economics, swung me against her completely. Burnham didn't seem to have the intellect. Kendall...well where to begin ? Her appalling attempt to capitalise on being a female at the end of one of the debates was cringeworthy.

But, the plotters need to come up with someone a hell of a lot better than Liz Kendall, unless they want to take the p*** again. I would hope the left can find someone with less baggage than Corbyn.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 9:01 am

yahyah wrote:Tony Blair manages to keep a sense of humour
From the Guardian:

''As the conversation turns to the Middle East Blair is interrupted by a heckler ''You are a liar ! You are going to jail ! You propped up the Saudi funding of 9/11''

Blair stays silent until the man is ejected. ''That's one I haven't heard before'' he says.

It is hard to know who is more tin foil hat, the nihilist left or the nihilist pro-Brexit right.
Don't they usually blame 'the Zionists' or the Israelis for 9/11 ?

I think they are all the same - when you get this extreme they all meld into one

I do think that Blair has been 'economical with the actualité' to be honest and that a lot of what is going on in Labour may be catalysed by the likely Corbyn reaction to Chilcott

That could be the nail in the coffin of Blairism/New Labour and some of the names from the past (Straw, perhaps Miliband Major) and some in the current PLP won't want that. I think they are only a very small minority but they are pretty vocal

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 9:02 am

http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2 ... of-brexit/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Am curious to know what the provinces think they will be like once London has relocated.

minch · Post by **minch** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 9:08 am

Do you remember the time when the favourite phrase of politicians was that they were 'listening to the people'.
I haven't heard that phrase for a while.

frightful_oik · Post by **frightful_oik** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 9:09 am

SpinningHugo wrote:How many who voted Corbyn last year would now reluctantly accept that, their point having been made, a new leader from the mainstream of the Labour party is now required?

JC is the mainstream arm of the party. Did you not see the poll results. I wouldn't want anyone from the nasty little clique in the PLP.

Lonewolfie · Post by **Lonewolfie** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 9:09 am

SpinningHugo wrote:How many who voted Cornyn last year would now reluctantly accept that, their point having been made, a new leader from the mainstreAm of the Labour party is now required?

Depends on who you have in mind....name please.........sorry, pardon? You DON'T actually have anyone in mind? So just 'get rid of Corbyn. then someone'll turn up'?

OK then, that's a NO from me.

...and that'll definitely work with the Labour Party membership.

(Don't worry though - I don't count - I'm just a £3 Corbynista Labour voter so my view can be safely ignored - and I still can't get my head around the 'unelectable' BS when the evidence points directly in the other direction)

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 9:09 am

yahyah wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:How many who voted Cornyn last year would now reluctantly accept that, their point having been made, a new leader from the mainstreAm of the Labour party is now required?

I am coming to that view. I only voted Corbyn because none of the other candidates were what was needed. There was a small temptation to vote for Cooper 'because we need a woman Labour leader' but she did not inspire any enthusiasm. Her performance in one of the debates, talking about economics, swung me against her completely. Burnham didn't seem to have the intellect. Kendall...well where to begin ? Her appalling attempt to capitalise on being a female at the end of one of the debates was cringeworthy.

But, the plotters need to come up with someone a hell of a lot better than Liz Kendall, unless they want to take the p*** again. I would hope the left can find someone with less baggage than Corbyn.

But yahyah this is the crux of the problem

There are not many, if any here, who are Corbyn or nothing.....he is not by any means the ideal leader

The reason he is leader though is that the party could not come up with someone who is really anti-austerity.

I come back to my point yesterday.....I saw Labour MP after Labour MP from the 'Leave' areas interviewed yesterday going on about immigration as if it was the cause of the problem. It is then an easy jump for the electorate to say immigration=EU

Corbyn has been clear that austerity is the core problem and Tory policies - immigration is a sympton

If this is the message that Labour MPs were giving to their constituents then all this stuff about Labour Remain is bollocks

A Labour leader being chosen by these MPs will be putting immigration at the top of the agenda to pander to that meme.....does this Labour Party appeal?

Find a new candidate and then we will see....

PS Just seen Farage who is going to tell the MEP that Brexit will hurt them far more than hurt us.........well that will help!

minch · Post by **minch** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 9:12 am

Harking back to the 80's.... when I wake up who is in the shower?

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 9:14 am

But Labour haven't managed to get that view across.
Labour people like Gisela Stuart joining the Brexit bandwagon didn't help.
The finger should have been clearly pointed at Tory policies, cuts that have affected the working class areas.

If there is an anti-austerity candidate that doesn't scare the horses please show yourself now, your party, and country needs you.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 9:19 am

minch wrote:Harking back to the 80's.... when I wake up who is in the shower?

Bobby!

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 9:21 am

yahyah wrote:But Labour haven't managed to get that view across.
Labour people like Gisela Stuart joining the Brexit bandwagon didn't help.
The finger should have been clearly pointed at Tory policies, cuts that have affected the working class areas.

If there is an anti-austerity candidate that doesn't scare the horses please show yourself now, your party, and country needs you.

Your point on Gisela is fair but she would always have been a prominent member of Leave as she was one of the few Labour Leavers and she is also German

Whether she is chair or not is a moot one - she would always have had this role

I can understand your reasoning, I am just not in total agreement but to be honest the referendum result would not be changed no matter what Corbyn did

The problem I am having is the continued feeling I have that certain Labour MP have started to be led by the xenophobia of some of their constituents and have put that at the front. Some such as John Mann were clearly Leave, others such as Owen Smith, Woodcock and the others were on the face of it remain

In this case is it all Corbyn's fault when the MP were possibly giving mixed messages

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 9:22 am

Nature abhors it. Demagogues, however - they fucking love it and thrive on it.

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yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 9:22 am

And just when you think it can't get worse, our Welsh wannabe Leanne Wood launches her bid for Welsh independence.

The Welsh Lib Dems and Plaid could do well out of Welsh Remain voters.

minch · Post by **minch** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 9:23 am

StephenDolan wrote:
minch wrote:Harking back to the 80's.... when I wake up who is in the shower?
Bobby!

What I meant was that if the last weeks have been but a dream what would we wake up to.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 9:23 am

I wish the "not Corbyn" team would draw straws to determine who is going to stand. Preferably a couple.
Perhaps the following could be asked for starters?

Umunna
Reeves
Benn
A. Eagle
Jarvis
Cooper

Name a name please.

Maeght · Post by **Maeght** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 9:24 am

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Owen Jones is as sad and desperate as I am.