sat 2 and sun 3 july in worst year for quite some time

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 02 Jul, 2016 9:04 pm

The FBI interviewed Hillary Clinton today. The next two weeks will be huge.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the ... -are-huge/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sat 02 Jul, 2016 9:19 pm

What does make complete sense to me is ramping up the pressure again on the election expenses affair.

If it could somehow be proved that the Tories won the GE fraudulently, then everything comes into question.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sat 02 Jul, 2016 9:25 pm

From JC

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Sat 02 Jul, 2016 9:29 pm

ohsocynical wrote:The FBI interviewed Hillary Clinton today. The next two weeks will be huge.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the ... -are-huge/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Bill Clinton meeting up with the Attorney General wasn't the best idea.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sat 02 Jul, 2016 9:45 pm

Here's the full piece

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/je ... es-8335834" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

jeremy-corbyn-exclusively-reveals-hes-8335834

Not quite sure what being 8335834 means

but it's a good article.

TR'sGhost · Post by **TR'sGhost** » Sat 02 Jul, 2016 9:56 pm

RobertSnozers wrote:
mbc1955 wrote:
danesclose wrote:Fucking hell, now Caroline Aherne's died.
Aw shit. I'd begun to hope that the worst was over, that the past couple of month's calmness on that front meant that the onslaught was over and we would just have the everyday man-made utter disasters to deal with, but obviously I was too optimistic.
Unfortunately, I think it's demographic. The 70s started to see an increase in people who were widely famous thanks to television being more widely accessible and culture starting to get more global. I understand we're starting to get into the leading edge of that 'bubble' where the people dying might be at the younger end of the normal bracket, and there are more of them than we're used to.

Apologies, the effect of being married to a social scientist...

It's definitely demographic.

I was born in 1961, and there are quite a lot fewer of us around than the 41-5? boomers.

We're also the generation that stopped joining things, be they political parties, unions or chess clubs. I blame Thatcher - the difference between being 21 in 1972 and 1982 is remarkable. I didn't realise just how remarkable until I read Mick Farren's recollections of the the late 60s/70s last year, and then discussed it with friends now aged around 70. They describe entering adult life in an atmosphere of hope and work of some kind or another could usually be found pretty quickly.

We got mass unemployment and everything around us shutting down.

Gripe over, service will now return to what passes for normal.

mbc1955 · Post by **mbc1955** » Sat 02 Jul, 2016 10:20 pm

TR'sGhost wrote:
RobertSnozers wrote:
mbc1955 wrote: Aw shit. I'd begun to hope that the worst was over, that the past couple of month's calmness on that front meant that the onslaught was over and we would just have the everyday man-made utter disasters to deal with, but obviously I was too optimistic.
Unfortunately, I think it's demographic. The 70s started to see an increase in people who were widely famous thanks to television being more widely accessible and culture starting to get more global. I understand we're starting to get into the leading edge of that 'bubble' where the people dying might be at the younger end of the normal bracket, and there are more of them than we're used to.

Apologies, the effect of being married to a social scientist...
It's definitely demographic.

I was born in 1961, and there are quite a lot fewer of us around than the 41-5? boomers.

We're also the generation that stopped joining things, be they political parties, unions or chess clubs. I blame Thatcher - the difference between being 21 in 1972 and 1982 is remarkable. I didn't realise just how remarkable until I read Mick Farren's recollections of the the late 60s/70s last year, and then discussed it with friends now aged around 70. They describe entering adult life in an atmosphere of hope and work of some kind or another could usually be found pretty quickly.

We got mass unemployment and everything around us shutting down.

Gripe over, service will now return to what passes for normal.

I love Sixties music, as much for that sense as for the music itself. It still sounds fresh and alive and new, because it was made at a time when we thought things were getting better, and getting better quickly, and there was no reason to think that it wouldn't go on for all our lives (I say 'we' figuratively: I was only 14 when the Sixties ended and my Dad died in 1970, before I got to my fifteenth birthday).

The Seventies was when we learnt what it was really going to be like.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 02 Jul, 2016 10:52 pm

goodnight, everyone
love,
cJA

Post by **refitman** » Sat 02 Jul, 2016 10:59 pm

Michael Cimino has died as well.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sat 02 Jul, 2016 11:05 pm

RobertSnozers wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:What does make complete sense to me is ramping up the pressure again on the election expenses affair.

If it could somehow be proved that the Tories won the GE fraudulently, then everything comes into question.
Perhaps it would have been better for Labour to do what some of us suggested a while back - refuse to have anything to do with the Tories' referendum and stay as far away from it as possible. That would mean they wouldn't be stuck in the position now of having to recognise its dubious legitimacy.

So hard to do that Robert.

Imagine another world where that had happened and Remain had won.

Both the Indyref and the EURef have been extremely challenging for Labour, which is probably why the lame fattened goose liked them so much. I don't believe there was an easy way through either of them for Labour.

TR'sGhost · Post by **TR'sGhost** » Sat 02 Jul, 2016 11:17 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:Erm...this is a bit strange. *tin foil hats on*

https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/749255548344885248

WikiLeaksVerified account
‏@wikileaks
Ruth Smeeth, Labour MP that attacked #Corbyn, listed as "strictly protect" US informant https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/09LO ... #efmB1ZB_h …

Well, on doing a little digging I doscovered this

https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/09LONDON956_a.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Its a telegram detailing inside information on Gordon Brown's government, mostly reports on their polling and whether they were inclined to call an election, including stuff that had not been released to or picked up by the media.

It includes this paragraph.

"5. (C/NF) Perhaps most damaging of all, however, Smeargate
effectively ended what may have been Brown's plan to call a
general election this spring, based on the rise in the polls
he received following his solid performance at the G-20.
Labour Prospective Parliamentary Candidate for Burton Ruth
Smeeth (strictly protect)told us April 20 that Brown had
intended to announce the elections on May 12, and hold them
after a very short (matter of weeks) campaign season. Labour
had been "just" 7 points behind the Conservatives in some
polls taken right after the G-20 Summit, which other Labour
contacts had told us was close to an acceptable standing from
which to launch a campaign, but the drop in Labour's poll
numbers following Smeargate forced Brown to abandon his plan,
a despondent Smeeth said. (Note: This information has not
been reported in the press. End note.) "

Reading the entire document it is clear there are other sources inside the Labour party. Information from Tory MP Keith Simpson is also included and he also has a "strictly protect" tag.

The document is classified under US security codes "confidential" (meaning it would damage US security if it the contents became publicly known) and "noforn" (not to be revealed to foreign nationals).

It seems the rabbit hole gets deeper.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sat 02 Jul, 2016 11:23 pm

Almost as damning for me is that Smeeth worked in PR at Nestlé and Sodexo.

Principled?

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sat 02 Jul, 2016 11:41 pm

refitman wrote:Michael Cimino has died as well.

Wonder whether we'll get any tributes from the illustrious Captain Snort aka Chancellor of the Exchequer

pala · Post by **pala** » Sat 02 Jul, 2016 11:42 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:From JC

The kind of thing a real leader would say. All the more impressive after all the sniping and smearing really. Yet still people will say he is "unelectable". Doing the Mail's work for them.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sat 02 Jul, 2016 11:50 pm

pala wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:From JC

The kind of thing a real leader would say. All the more impressive after all the sniping and smearing really. Yet still people will say he is "unelectable". Doing the Mail's work for them.

Exactly pala. Corbyn is potentially emerging massively strengthened by the #ChickenCoup.

I for one have moved more his way precisely because Benn, Eagle and the rest are displaying no leadership skills, offering no vision.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sat 02 Jul, 2016 11:56 pm

In other news there is no rain forecast for tomorrow here in Huddersfield!

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Sun 03 Jul, 2016 12:35 am

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
pala wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:From JC

The kind of thing a real leader would say. All the more impressive after all the sniping and smearing really. Yet still people will say he is "unelectable". Doing the Mail's work for them.
Exactly pala. Corbyn is potentially emerging massively strengthened by the #ChickenCoup.

I for one have moved more his way precisely because Benn, Eagle and the rest are displaying no leadership skills, offering no vision.

I think the pressure must be telling on the more uncommitted of the plotters. Angela Eagle looked broken when I saw her on telly earlier, and the hard core group is allegedly 20-30. OUtside of them, I think the barrage of emails, and rallies, and twitter, being uninvited to Durham Miners, the unions, 60k people joining in a week, votes of no confidence, threats of deselection, the overall incompetence of the plot but i particular the leaks about Portland St, the registering of web addresses days before etc.

All this pressure is building up on them as well.

The hardcore won't be appeased but if this goes on, I think we will start to see some of the weaker willed crack.

Anyone who says Corbyn hasnt got the balls or game to be a leader hasnt been paying attention. If the canary scoop tomorrow is as explosive as claimed, then the plot could start to unravel.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Sun 03 Jul, 2016 6:39 am

Corbyn, apparently, has no support outside London.
So who were the thousands rallying in Manchester, Durham, Liverpool, Leeds, and Cardiff?
There was even a a little rally in Penzance!

Tem's right - he has been very tough in all this.
And still there is not one single Labour MP brave enough to stand against him. Not one.
Corbyn's Mirror article is just right. Clever.

On another topic -
If any of our recent leavers are reading, please come back.
This forum is poorer without you.

extankie · Post by **extankie** » Sun 03 Jul, 2016 9:00 am

Ephemerid:
Do you think there is still any hope for us at the bottom? I`m at the despair level and sinking.
On another note, do you think it would be ok for me to mail you private as I could really do with some advice re PiPs,
and you are the only person I trust to tell me the truth. Many thanks in advance, extankie

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Sun 03 Jul, 2016 9:15 am

extankie wrote:Ephemerid:
Do you think there is still any hope for us at the bottom? I`m at the despair level and sinking.
On another note, do you think it would be ok for me to mail you private as I could really do with some advice re PiPs,
and you are the only person I trust to tell me the truth. Many thanks in advance, extankie

Good morning all - and welcome, extankie.

I've sent you a PM here - top left, next to login.
If I can help, I'm more than happy to.

Yes, there IS hope. We help each other and we fight together.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sun 03 Jul, 2016 9:39 am

tinyclanger2 wrote:
The National Farmers Union (NFU) has called an extraordinary meeting for tomorrow to discuss the changes that will come about from leaving the EU.
http://www.kidderminstershuttle.co.uk/n ... 4593309.-/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Mr Powles believes food prices in the UK will go up while the consequences of possible farm closures will lead to diminishing food stocks in Britain and a reliance on imports.
Pity they didn't think about any of this a bit sooner

The NFU supported Remain, and warned of food prices increasing. But what do they know about food is what a Brexiteer would say.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Sun 03 Jul, 2016 9:40 am

So - now that Corbyn has demonstrated how tough he is, we now have the MSM droning on about how his aides have refused a one-to-one meeting with Watson because of a "duty of care" to an old man. What the fickety feckity fock is that all about?

Meanwhile, the dream candidate is nowhere to be seen. And no wonder - when you look at what happened to Ed Milband and now Jeremy Corbyn, any replacement must be petrified that the same could happen to them. Cowards, all of 'em.
If they were serious about party unity, they'd get behind the current leadership (as I've said for 9 months) and take the fight to the Tories - who, as ever, are busy re-grouping and sticking together as they always do after a kerfuffle.

Lest we forget - it was not just the £3 registered supporters who swung the vote for Corbyn's leadership, it was full and affiliated members too.
If you exclude the £3 people, Corbyn got 121,751 members and 41,217 affiliates; Burnham was next with 55,698 and 18,604.
I am heartily sick of people who say that "real" Labour members don't want Corbyn - they voted for him. In their tens of thousands.
Plus - a recent Times poll showed that 54% of Labour voters (NB - not members, voters) think he should stay.

The PLP needs to put up or shut up.
I do not like the more militant baying for reselection of certain MPs, nor do I think it's right that MPs should be threatened. But I do think that the CLPs have a right to ask their MP to explain themselves, and to express their majority view in public. After all, they did the work that their MP benefited from, and if they are at odds with their MPs views they have every right to have their say. If they choose to deselect, so be it.

This whole thing is utter farce. A few years ago, the party chose "Red" Ed rather than "Rendition" David; factions briefed against Ed from the start.
Whatever he did to bring the party together, there was always someone putting their oar in - "useless", "weak", etc. And now this - Corbyn has had to spend more time defending himself against personal attacks from hs own party than he has getting on with the job. Disgraceful.

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Sun 03 Jul, 2016 9:47 am

Gloria DePiero has taken to write a column in The Sun asking the readers to join Labour in order to get a new leader

That's her off of my Christmas card list. https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/1381982/i ... they-need/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sun 03 Jul, 2016 9:48 am

How fecking patronising.

My husband is nearly Corbyn's age. He's as fit as a flea mentally and physically. Duty of care ? Do they think we all get senile once we hit sixty ?

Phew.

Blood pressure must come down.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sun 03 Jul, 2016 9:51 am

Did they use her old topless pics to go with the article ?

edited to add...surprisingly they didn't.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sun 03 Jul, 2016 9:52 am

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... ers-survey" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Bruter and Harrison said they found turnout among young people to be far higher than data has so far suggested. “Young people cared and voted in very large numbers. We found turnout was very close to the national average, and much higher than in general and local elections.

“After correcting for over-reporting [people always say they vote more than they do], we found that the likely turnout of 18- to 24-year-olds was 70% – just 2.5% below the national average – and 67% for 25- to 29-year-olds.

Rebecca · Post by **Rebecca** » Sun 03 Jul, 2016 9:55 am

yahyah wrote:How fecking patronising.

My husband is nearly Corbyn's age. He's as fit as a flea mentally and physically. Duty of care ? Do they think we all get senile once we hit sixty ?

Phew. Blood pressure must come down.

From what I gathered reading the article,(may be wrong and won't be going back for a repeat),Watson wanted a one to one without any witnesses at all.
Considering the spin and general outright lies that Mps have been lobbing at the media,Jeremy Corbyn would have to be bloody senile to agree to do that.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sun 03 Jul, 2016 9:55 am

Sad to hear Elie Wiesel has also died.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36696420" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sun 03 Jul, 2016 10:02 am

Here's the promised Canary article

http://www.thecanary.co/2016/07/01/seni ... exclusive/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Not quite explosive, but mainly because we already knew this would be the case.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sun 03 Jul, 2016 10:03 am

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... ion-divide" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The generational divide exposed by the EU referendum will worsen because of Tory tax and benefit plans that will redistribute billions of pounds from the young to the old, the independent Resolution Foundation says today.

New analysis of how money will shift from young to old over the next four years has been produced by the foundation as it announces a new intergenerational commission aimed at creating a fairer deal for voters aged under 25. The analysis, which breaks down the impact of tax and welfare changes planned for this parliament by age, shows that people in their 30s will experience the biggest losses of any age group, losing an average of £220 a year by 2020.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Sun 03 Jul, 2016 10:14 am

RogerOThornhill wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:In reply to RS above - yes there have been a few MPs/MEPs who have said parliament should effectively ignore the Brexit vote (David Lammy maybe being the most prominent)
On order to do this they would need to analyse all of the various claims and counter-claims made during the campaign...and then conclude that the whole process was so flawed that the result is impossible to rely on to invoke Article 50.

That might also severely embarrass a few politicians which would be an excellent move.

In fact, Leave can't possibly object since their whole point was that parliament is sovereign. Well then here's their chance to prove it.

Have you seen this?
It's what I've been thinking from the start, but it looks almost as pie-in-the-sky written here by a much cleverer person than me, as it did in my head.

https://www.nchlondon.ac.uk/2016/07/01/ ... july-2016/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Professor A C Grayling’s letter to all 650 MPs urging Parliament not to support a motion to trigger Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty, 1 July 2016

I won't quote from it, it's worth reading in full.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 03 Jul, 2016 10:16 am

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 16686.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
'I think it would be a disaster for our economy and it would lead to a decade of economic and political uncertainty at a time when the tectonic plates of global success are moving'
Angela Leadsom - 3 years ago

Rebecca · Post by **Rebecca** » Sun 03 Jul, 2016 10:17 am

TobyLatimer wrote:Gloria DePiero has taken to write a column in The Sun asking the readers to join Labour in order to get a new leader

That's her off of my Christmas card list. https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/1381982/i ... they-need/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If that isn't bringing the party into disrepute I don't know what is.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sun 03 Jul, 2016 10:21 am

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Here's the promised Canary article

http://www.thecanary.co/2016/07/01/seni ... exclusive/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Not quite explosive, but mainly because we already knew this would be the case.

Changing leader at the same time as the Tories is a sensible strategic plan. Some people here actually suggested right at the beginning that Corbyn might well step down voluntarily when Cameron did. It seems clear now that he always intended to fight a general election. Momentum has been contacting Labour members to instruct them who to vote for on the NEC. The intention seems to be to achieve complete control of the party. This is very popular with members as far as I can tell. I have given you some insights into why Corbyn has lost my vote. The PLP behaving appallingly and not playing fair doesn't change the fact that Corbyn doesn't appeal to me, he still has the wrong priorities for me to support him. Not changing leader now is a very big mistake. Having to have Corbyn and no one else shows the party is no longer a party. It's just not viable for the membership of a party to not trust and support any but a very small minority of the MPs that represent it. I feel Labour is finished, to be honest. It's sad, but I see no way forward. I joined a political party, a pro-EU political party, not a movement. I'm not part of this Momentum movement and it feels more and more that anyone who isn't part of the movement doesn't belong in Labour any more.

Rebecca · Post by **Rebecca** » Sun 03 Jul, 2016 10:32 am

Willow904 wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Here's the promised Canary article

http://www.thecanary.co/2016/07/01/seni ... exclusive/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Not quite explosive, but mainly because we already knew this would be the case.
Changing leader at the same time as the Tories is a sensible strategic plan. Some people here actually suggested right at the beginning that Corbyn might well step down voluntarily when Cameron did. It seems clear now that he always intended to fight a general election. Momentum has been contacting Labour members to instruct them who to vote for on the NEC. The intention seems to be to achieve complete control of the party. This is very popular with members as far as I can tell. I have given you some insights into why Corbyn has lost my vote. The PLP behaving appallingly and not playing fair doesn't change the fact that Corbyn doesn't appeal to me, he still has the wrong priorities for me to support him. Not changing leader now is a very big mistake. Having to have Corbyn and no one else shows the party is no longer a party. It's just not viable for the membership of a party to not trust and support any but a very small minority of the MPs that represent it. I feel Labour is finished, to be honest. It's sad, but I see no way forward. I joined a political party, a pro-EU political party, not a movement. I'm not part of this Momentum movement and it feels more and more that anyone who isn't part of the movement doesn't belong in Labour any more.

Momentum contacted me.
They didn't instruct me who to vote for.
I still am completely unable to comprehend how you can condone the PLP,even though you know that they have behaved in the most dishonourable way possible.Also incompetent,undemocratic and spiteful.
We all know you are anti Corbyn.
But that you can be supportive of the actions of the PLP is staggering.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 03 Jul, 2016 10:42 am

Rebecca wrote:
TobyLatimer wrote:Gloria DePiero has taken to write a column in The Sun asking the readers to join Labour in order to get a new leader

That's her off of my Christmas card list. https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/1381982/i ... they-need/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If that isn't bringing the party into disrepute I don't know what is.

Nothing wrong with encouraging people to join Labour, tbf - many rightwingers want a small, easily controllable party.

Rebecca · Post by **Rebecca** » Sun 03 Jul, 2016 10:43 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Rebecca wrote:
TobyLatimer wrote:Gloria DePiero has taken to write a column in The Sun asking the readers to join Labour in order to get a new leader

That's her off of my Christmas card list. https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/1381982/i ... they-need/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If that isn't bringing the party into disrepute I don't know what is.
Nothing wrong with encouraging people to join Labour, tbf - many rightwingers want a small, easily controllable party.

It was the Sun thing
.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sun 03 Jul, 2016 10:44 am

Hello again all

I would like to say sorry for yesterday...I was a bit 'tired and emotional' - not in the Private Eye sense and overreacted

I will apologise to Angry As Well for misinterpreting their words but I will not accept being called a 'word twister' - an accusation that was repeated three times. I am still quite angry about this

I hope you will all allow me some leeway and let me try to put it to one side

I came back because this is a great board and also because I need somewhere to express myself

The partial mea culpa is now over

My rant this morning will be about the British media.....and in some way explains why Remain have struggled

Gove managed to speak through his entire interview with Marr today selling a wish list of policies that have nothing at all to do with the EU but were due to the policies of his GOvernment. Not once was this challenged by Marr who could easily have asked 'yes very good, but what has stopping excessive executive pay got to do with the EU?'

The concentration was on the personal side...the favourite of the Westminster gossip mongers where it seems to be treated like a club where the personal intrigues are much more important than what actually happens. Mini-coups and factionalism are common in all these middle class organisations..(tennis, dra etc)

Then I watched May on Peston. She was allowed to invent an exit process that seems to only come from within the minds of Leavers and their acolytes (it is clear she was never for Remain at all). She was going on about Trade deals with the EU and the rest of the world and giving the lie to we will exit the two years with a deal. This is not what her own Government civil serivce suggests, and this is backed up from statements by academics and the EU itself. Did he challenge her? Has he read the documents himself?

The media are completely useless as they do not want to manage their brief. I cannot imagine that int he days past Robin Day or Brian Waldron missng these points.

Also the absence of proper debates...not those artificial attempts that become common now but proper challenging of points between serious intellects rather than the punch bag nonsense we have been fed recently - where it is all about who won the beauty contest rather than the content of the argument?

Another point is the referendum result itself. We had a general election last year and in some norther Labour constituencies the turnout was 10-20% higher than the previous year...and higher than any time since 97. These were the self-disenfranchised coming back to vote and they were voting massively against austerity.....when we say Labour voters voted to stay Remain...these were the voters from last year.

The others, possibly a lot of ex-Labour voters, came back in to vote against the vindictive policies of this Government, not against the EU

So when we say that 2/3 of Labour voters are Remain....we should remember that the ones that deserted the party since 97 were possibly heavily for Leave and so by taking a very strong 'Remain' stance will mean they will self-disenfranchise again or, even worse, vote for a populist party who pretends to being anti-austerity, but adds the xenophobia as well

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 03 Jul, 2016 11:00 am

Rebecca wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Rebecca wrote:
If that isn't bringing the party into disrepute I don't know what is.
Nothing wrong with encouraging people to join Labour, tbf - many rightwingers want a small, easily controllable party.

It was the Sun thing
.

Yeah, I can understand that tbh.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sun 03 Jul, 2016 11:04 am

Rebecca wrote:
Willow904 wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Here's the promised Canary article

http://www.thecanary.co/2016/07/01/seni ... exclusive/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Not quite explosive, but mainly because we already knew this would be the case.
Changing leader at the same time as the Tories is a sensible strategic plan. Some people here actually suggested right at the beginning that Corbyn might well step down voluntarily when Cameron did. It seems clear now that he always intended to fight a general election. Momentum has been contacting Labour members to instruct them who to vote for on the NEC. The intention seems to be to achieve complete control of the party. This is very popular with members as far as I can tell. I have given you some insights into why Corbyn has lost my vote. The PLP behaving appallingly and not playing fair doesn't change the fact that Corbyn doesn't appeal to me, he still has the wrong priorities for me to support him. Not changing leader now is a very big mistake. Having to have Corbyn and no one else shows the party is no longer a party. It's just not viable for the membership of a party to not trust and support any but a very small minority of the MPs that represent it. I feel Labour is finished, to be honest. It's sad, but I see no way forward. I joined a political party, a pro-EU political party, not a movement. I'm not part of this Momentum movement and it feels more and more that anyone who isn't part of the movement doesn't belong in Labour any more.

Momentum contacted me.
They didn't instruct me who to vote for.
I still am completely unable to comprehend how you can condone the PLP,even though you know that they have behaved in the most dishonourable way possible.Also incompetent,undemocratic and spiteful.
We all know you are anti Corbyn.
But that you can be supportive of the actions of the PLP is staggering.

I'm saying that disapproval of plotters doesn't equal approval of Corbyn. I disapprove of both. There are some Labour MPs whose response to the referendum I have agreed with who I do not believe are plotters, such as David Lammy or Seema Malhotra, and I wish people like this were in charge of the direction of Labour but this is impossible because we are stuck in this struggle between two extremes, neither of which are appealing to me in the middle. This is why I think Labour is over. Now is the right time to change leader, but Corbyn is not willing to. I think this is a mistake for the party, not that the actions of plotters is correct. I do have sympathy with those who stood down after Corbyn's inadequate response to the referendum result, though, a lot of sympathy, as it was at that point on the Saturday that I lost all confidence in him too. That was the point someone with the abilities to reach out to supporters and take them with them would be displayed, as with Sturgeon and Farron, but Corbyn displayed none. Even my husband, who likes Corbyn, was thoroughly disappointed in him and expressed his regret that he really wasn't good enough.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sun 03 Jul, 2016 11:10 am

Can I also add a comment about A50

We have people saying that the EU cannot force us to invoke A50 - that is absolutely correct

If you, like me, see A50 invocation being inevitable at some point then there is an easy way for them to make things difficult for us - apart from taking a less generous attitude to the negotiations

There is this 2 year time limit which seems really short for such a complex exit negotiation, never mind having to negotiate trade concurrently (if this actually happens. Unanimity is required for an extension and so the messing about now might cost us a lot when it gets to the business end

If A50 is going to be invoked and we have 2.5 years in total (2 year limit and 6 months extra) then I would rather those discretionary 6 months are available aduring the negotiation instead of giving the Tories time to make up their minds

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sun 03 Jul, 2016 11:29 am

howsillyofme1 wrote:Can I also add a comment about A50

We have people saying that the EU cannot force us to invoke A50 - that is absolutely correct

If you, like me, see A50 invocation being inevitable at some point then there is an easy way for them to make things difficult for us - apart from taking a less generous attitude to the negotiations

There is this 2 year time limit which seems really short for such a complex exit negotiation, never mind having to negotiate trade concurrently (if this actually happens. Unanimity is required for an extension and so the messing about now might cost us a lot when it gets to the business end

If A50 is going to be invoked and we have 2.5 years in total (2 year limit and 6 months extra) then I would rather those discretionary 6 months are available aduring the negotiation instead of giving the Tories time to make up their minds

I think we have to accept that the Tories are in government for the next 4 years and will do what suits them, not the EU or the country. This is why I think Labour needs to be cautious and not talk about exit negotiations until it is triggered. Article 50 may never be invoked. If it is, I hope Labour will come out strongly in favour of membership of the single market and talk up the benefits of immigration but I fear this is unlikely, whoever is in charge.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sun 03 Jul, 2016 11:37 am

Willow904 wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:Can I also add a comment about A50

We have people saying that the EU cannot force us to invoke A50 - that is absolutely correct

If you, like me, see A50 invocation being inevitable at some point then there is an easy way for them to make things difficult for us - apart from taking a less generous attitude to the negotiations

There is this 2 year time limit which seems really short for such a complex exit negotiation, never mind having to negotiate trade concurrently (if this actually happens. Unanimity is required for an extension and so the messing about now might cost us a lot when it gets to the business end

If A50 is going to be invoked and we have 2.5 years in total (2 year limit and 6 months extra) then I would rather those discretionary 6 months are available aduring the negotiation instead of giving the Tories time to make up their minds
I think we have to accept that the Tories are in government for the next 4 years and will do what suits them, not the EU or the country. This is why I think Labour needs to be cautious and not talk about exit negotiations until it is triggered. Article 50 may never be invoked. If it is, I hope Labour will come out strongly in favour of membership of the single market and talk up the benefits of immigration but I fear this is unlikely, whoever is in charge.

I don't agree on A50 but I do not have the gift of presight so you could just be as right. I think it is a very dangerous thing to do however, especially looking at the large majority in England for Leave, unless there is some sort of democratic mndate...the best bet for that would be a snap election but the Tories aren't looking keen at the moment

As to your final sentence, you may very well be right. I am sad to see the current leadership has moved to bringing immigration into it.....whether anyone can ever deliver free movement is difficult to envisage at the moment

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 03 Jul, 2016 11:51 am

England voted a bit over 53% to leave - not *that* big.

It seems that McDonnell "rowed back" on his original reported comments on freedom of movement as well.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 03 Jul, 2016 11:57 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:England voted a bit over 53% to leave - not *that* big.

It seems that McDonnell "rowed back" on his original reported comments on freedom of movement as well.

A bit under 52%? corrected: I see you mean England not overall.

Either way, not big at all.

Tizme1 · Post by **Tizme1** » Sun 03 Jul, 2016 12:01 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Here's the promised Canary article

http://www.thecanary.co/2016/07/01/seni ... exclusive/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Not quite explosive, but mainly because we already knew this would be the case.

That article is dated the 1st though.

Tizme1 · Post by **Tizme1** » Sun 03 Jul, 2016 12:04 pm

gilsey wrote:
RogerOThornhill wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:In reply to RS above - yes there have been a few MPs/MEPs who have said parliament should effectively ignore the Brexit vote (David Lammy maybe being the most prominent)
On order to do this they would need to analyse all of the various claims and counter-claims made during the campaign...and then conclude that the whole process was so flawed that the result is impossible to rely on to invoke Article 50.

That might also severely embarrass a few politicians which would be an excellent move.

In fact, Leave can't possibly object since their whole point was that parliament is sovereign. Well then here's their chance to prove it.
Have you seen this?
It's what I've been thinking from the start, but it looks almost as pie-in-the-sky written here by a much cleverer person than me, as it did in my head.

https://www.nchlondon.ac.uk/2016/07/01/ ... july-2016/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Professor A C Grayling’s letter to all 650 MPs urging Parliament not to support a motion to trigger Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty, 1 July 2016

I won't quote from it, it's worth reading in full.

I thought I'd put a link to that yesterday. I must be losing the plot - along with half the country it seems.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 03 Jul, 2016 12:04 pm

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 16741.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

hmm. market of (pop) 60 million or market of (pop) > 600 million.
difficult choice - not.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 03 Jul, 2016 12:07 pm

http://www.blackpoolgazette.co.uk/news/ ... -1-7994487" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;?
“Remain voters want the Government to prioritise staying part of the EU’s single market while Leave voters are keen to end free movement between the UK and the EU and both priorities are likely to be mutually exclusive.”

Thanks Dave.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 03 Jul, 2016 12:08 pm

The European Union is to show its determination to make no concessions to the UK on Brexit terms by telling Switzerland it will lose access to the single market if it goes ahead with plans to impose controls on the free movement of EU citizens.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/ ... t-citizens" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;?