sat 2 and sun 3 july in worst year for quite some time

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 02 Jul, 2016 5:41 am

http://www.somersetlive.co.uk/sherborne ... story.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;?
random acts of kindness to counteract random acts of hate

better than nothing

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 02 Jul, 2016 7:23 am

''Worst year for quite some time''. Oh Tiny, we are of one mind.

Ceredigion Labour have called an emergency meeting next Friday evening to discuss the Westminster plot situation.
They've already issued a statement of support for Corbyn, affirmed his mandate and condemned those in the PLP who are subverting the party democracy process.

martinson · Post by **martinson** » Sat 02 Jul, 2016 7:26 am

Good morning.
Couldn't help laughing at this...
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sat 02 Jul, 2016 7:31 am

Bit of optimism for you

https://spinninghugo.wordpress.com/2016 ... e-invoked/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 02 Jul, 2016 7:50 am

martinson wrote:Good morning.
Couldn't help laughing at this...
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 02 Jul, 2016 8:35 am

http://www.itv.com/news/2016-07-02/labo ... ela-eagle/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Owen Smith didn't perform well in the Welsh televised 2015 election debate.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 02 Jul, 2016 8:42 am

Kipper AM Mark Reckless has been appointed chair of a Welsh Assembly comittee investigating climate change. Welsh Greens have started a petition about it.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/polit ... y-11556188" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sat 02 Jul, 2016 9:13 am

Morning All

For all its worth I am a believer in the tebets of democracy and we have clearly seen a democratic deficit in the recent past. I have been saying for a while that we have reached 'peak democracy'

A conspiracy theorist would say this is the desire of the establishment to dampen down their accountability and move towards a Soma-based world as envisaged by Huxley

Now, coming on to the referendum. I am mortified now that this has happened and I would love that we could go back to a week last Wednesday. I, for one, have been wise after the fact and I missed the full implications

Saying that though the referendum was in the Tory Party manifesto - clear and open to all to read. The bill was passed with, If I am correct, only the SNP voting against. The referendum was carried out and there was a clear majority for Leave

I am not happy with it, the campaign was full of lies and bitterness but there we have it. The Government provided some very good documentation so that anyone could see what leaving meant and how it would work

I know it is non-binding but that was never really made an issue and the leader of Remain, the Prime Minister, seemed to be as clear as that lying toad can be in saying that a vote Out means Out.....point to me a time when anyone say that and Out vote was only going to be advisory and that Parliament would make the final decisions?

Now we see a rowing back on the exit...the idea is that if we leave A50 and do not give notice to exit we never will and sit in some sort of semi-in role until the electorate forget about it, come to their senses or vote in a way suggesting they want to stay in

If we stay in, of course I will be happier, but can you imagine the extreme loss of trust between the electorate and politicians. Do you really think that the electorate will change their minds. The vast majority of Leave voters I know are entrenched in their position rather than changing their minds. They think it was the right thing to do. Some will have changed opinion but I do not think there are any grounds for a rerun

If the politicians (and Remainers) were being honest to what was the the message given in the campaign, they would be calling for A50 to be invoked now. That is what the voters expected

There is an argument for some delay but to what ends I am not sure. There is no negotiation to be held (or are the politicians all lying again?) and so I don't actually see what that does other than delay the inevitable. I think most Leave voters would though accept this for a while, as do the EU

If we ignore the result who knows what it will unleash...at the very least it will crystallise for a large part of the population that politicians are liars and will do what they feel like. The EU I guess will also be angry at having to wait and wait and wait....perhaps leading to further repercussions

It is not a A50 now vs A50 in 6 months argument (these to me will lead to the same thing, Exit and WTO)...it is A50 or no A50 ie we stay in the EU against the wishes of the referendum

I know where you are all coming from but if we choose not to accept the democratic mandate that Leave has then why should others respect any mandate that goes our way?

It was, in my view, not the most sensible of decisions but it was the will of the electorate

If you want to take it out on anyone take it on on the fool that decided to hold such a ridiculous referendum in the first place and allow it to get to this stage on such a small majority

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 02 Jul, 2016 9:28 am

I can understand your concern about what may happen if those who voted Leave feel betrayed.

But isn't there likely to be a hell of a backlash when it dawns on a lot of voters that they were lied to, and when they get hit in their own pockets/jobs/employment rights ?
The nastiest groups, the far right, have already been ramping up their activities.

There'll be disenchantment either way. I'd rather Labour are on the side that urges caution, or support a second referendum. Just rolling over and accepting it seems wrong.
Wrong precisely because there seems to have been so much misinformation about what the referendum was about, and what the implications of a Leave vote were.

I cannot understand what Lexit supporters thought would happen ?
That suddenly the country would shift to the left before the Randian Tories and UKIP capitalised on Brexit ? The Telegraph article yesterday is a stark warning.
This isn't rhetorical. How do left wing Leave supporters see a way through the damage the right can wield ?

martinson · Post by **martinson** » Sat 02 Jul, 2016 9:36 am

The Tory leadership, a simple analysis by one with very tiny political antennae.
Cameron says he will not face another election but will carry on whatever the outcome of the referendum.
Boris positions himself within the Tory party as a popular eurosceptic whilst expecting Remain to prevail thus hoping to replace Cameron when he goes. His mate Gove supports him.
Brexit surprisingly delivered. Cameron resigns knowing the implementation is too difficult to contemplate and would spoil his perceived legacy. Boris realises he doesn't want to become a laughing stock of a PM without a plan constantly badgered from all sides and can't be arsed anyway. But he's still so popular he would win the Tory contest. Gets his mate Gove to replace him both knowing that Gove the front-stabber will never win and that May is welcome to the years of turmoil. Comes riding back in the future as saviour of England having side-stepped, as rugby prop forwards do, the full frontal blame. QED.

frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Sat 02 Jul, 2016 9:56 am

Thanks for those first ten posts . Plenty to ponder on .

My ecstatic visiting Welsh neighbours are off to see the Tour de France riding up the Normandy coast ( 10mins away ) !

Time for fresh air, off to market

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 02 Jul, 2016 10:22 am

yahyah wrote:http://www.itv.com/news/2016-07-02/labo ... ela-eagle/

Owen Smith didn't perform well in the Welsh televised 2015 election debate.

It was remarked on at the time, but also that he is capable of better.

Re this morning's "negotiated deal to ease Corbyn out" story - well I expect most JC supporters won't be interested with it as it stands, but IMO it is still significant as it denotes some in the PLP have blinked first and are no longer demanding unconditional surrender?

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Sat 02 Jul, 2016 10:38 am

Another stupid idea...
Would it be possible to acknowledge the result of the referendum, and try and accommodate the motivations/arguments behind the way people voted (both in & out), without having to trigger article 50?
Basically I'm thinking along the lines of 'buying off' some of the brexit voters maybe through some kind of social contract, any financial cost would probably be less than leaving EU.

Edit, i mean stupid idea.on my part, wasn't suggesting other peoples ideas were stupid, quite the opposite.
(I have other ideas, of more stupidity, but self censor)

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Sat 02 Jul, 2016 10:50 am

I'm feeling a bit more cheerful today, probably because of the football. Thanks Wales.
Wouldn't it be utterly wonderful if Iceland won?

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 02 Jul, 2016 10:54 am

On the EU, people on the remain side also feel very strongly cheated by the lies told and the fact the referendum was just tossed together rather than thought through democratically.
Overheard on the met
If these %%%ers think they are taking us out and ruining our future they think again. We'll burn London to the ground if we need to.
Angry young men? Maybe, but they sounded serious.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Sat 02 Jul, 2016 10:57 am

tinybgoat wrote:Another stupid idea...
Would it be possible to acknowledge the result of the referendum, and try and accommodate the motivations/arguments behind the way people voted (both in & out), without having to trigger article 50?
Basically I'm thinking along the lines of 'buying off' some of the brexit voters maybe through some kind of social contract, any financial cost would probably be less than leaving EU.

The only thing I've thought of was, could we buy off the referendum result with PR? We're wary of it now because UKIP will win seats and influence in parliament, but that's what the ref is telling us people want, surely.

I think everyone should back off and let the tories do as they will. What do the tory party donors want? Maybe the govt want to kick the can down the road until they see how that goes. Their instincts for self-preservation may enable them to find a way through where more honest and principled folk would balk.
Democracy is broken here anyway.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 02 Jul, 2016 11:03 am

gilsey wrote:
tinybgoat wrote:Another stupid idea...
Would it be possible to acknowledge the result of the referendum, and try and accommodate the motivations/arguments behind the way people voted (both in & out), without having to trigger article 50?
Basically I'm thinking along the lines of 'buying off' some of the brexit voters maybe through some kind of social contract, any financial cost would probably be less than leaving EU.
The only thing I've thought of was, could we buy off the referendum result with PR? We're wary of it now because UKIP will win seats and influence in parliament, but that's what the ref is telling us people want, surely.

I think everyone should back off and let the tories do as they will. What do the tory party donors want? Maybe the govt want to kick the can down the road until they see how that goes. Their instincts for self-preservation may enable them to find a way through where more honest and principled folk would balk.
Democracy is broken here anyway.

I think you are right on the can kicking, but I also think democracy is being abused when the tory taking us out will be someone unelected by the population. Leadson or Gove? Acting on our behalf? Even May is only half hearted for staying in so is not the best to negotiate for us.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 02 Jul, 2016 11:09 am

Also lets not forget the possible tory election fraud, if only a few seats are found, they have no mandate to do this.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Sat 02 Jul, 2016 11:10 am

AngryAsWell wrote:
gilsey wrote:
tinybgoat wrote:Another stupid idea...
Would it be possible to acknowledge the result of the referendum, and try and accommodate the motivations/arguments behind the way people voted (both in & out), without having to trigger article 50?
Basically I'm thinking along the lines of 'buying off' some of the brexit voters maybe through some kind of social contract, any financial cost would probably be less than leaving EU.
The only thing I've thought of was, could we buy off the referendum result with PR? We're wary of it now because UKIP will win seats and influence in parliament, but that's what the ref is telling us people want, surely.

I think everyone should back off and let the tories do as they will. What do the tory party donors want? Maybe the govt want to kick the can down the road until they see how that goes. Their instincts for self-preservation may enable them to find a way through where more honest and principled folk would balk.
Democracy is broken here anyway.
I think you are right on the can kicking, but I also think democracy is being abused when the tory taking us out will be someone unelected by the population. Leadson or Gove? Acting on our behalf? Even May is only half hearted for staying in so is not the best to negotiate for us.

Democracy is certainly being abused, no argument with that.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 02 Jul, 2016 11:12 am

The point is, it is not possible for the Labour party to openly tell people who voted to leave "you were wrong and we will ignore you".

(I know the LibDems basically have, but nobody cares about them anyway)

It is possible Article 50 will never be invoked, it is possible there will be some sort of second referendum. But only events can cause this (which might create widespread "buyers remorse" in due course) and major political parties in the meantime can't be seen to be "defying the voters".

There might be mileage in a "we are the 48%" *movement* (not a new political party, FFS) to create the conditions for change. But that is different

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Sat 02 Jul, 2016 11:19 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:The point is, it is not possible for the Labour party to openly tell people who voted to leave "you were wrong and we will ignore you".

(I know the LibDems basically have, but nobody cares about them anyway)

It is possible Article 50 will never be invoked, it is possible there will be some sort of second referendum. But only events can cause this (which might create widespread "buyers remorse" in due course) and major political parties in the meantime can't be seen to be "defying the voters".

There might be mileage in a "we are the 48%" *movement* (not a new political party, FFS) to create the conditions for change. But that is different

Yes - exactly this!!!!

frightful_oik · Post by **frightful_oik** » Sat 02 Jul, 2016 11:30 am

gilsey wrote:
tinybgoat wrote:Another stupid idea...
Would it be possible to acknowledge the result of the referendum, and try and accommodate the motivations/arguments behind the way people voted (both in & out), without having to trigger article 50?
Basically I'm thinking along the lines of 'buying off' some of the brexit voters maybe through some kind of social contract, any financial cost would probably be less than leaving EU.
The only thing I've thought of was, could we buy off the referendum result with PR? We're wary of it now because UKIP will win seats and influence in parliament, but that's what the ref is telling us people want, surely.

I think everyone should back off and let the tories do as they will. What do the tory party donors want? Maybe the govt want to kick the can down the road until they see how that goes. Their instincts for self-preservation may enable them to find a way through where more honest and principled folk would balk.
Democracy is broken here anyway.

Precisely! It depends who wins their leadership election of course. Fox, Gove or Leadsom and we're out. May has already kicked the can down the road. Crabb won't win. Meanwhile Lab has to stick to its principled respect for the voters' wishes while waiting, (like May), for events. If she wins, she can say to her EU counterparts something along the lines of, 'A50 ain't gonna happen, just give us time to prepare the way; in the meantime a bit of tough talking from the 27 would be much appreciated'. This all depends on Tory party members electing her. Meanwhile Lab remains democratically pure.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Sat 02 Jul, 2016 11:31 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:The point is, it is not possible for the Labour party to openly tell people who voted to leave "you were wrong and we will ignore you".

I don't think they should. I just think going along with it with apparent enthusiasm is telling the majority of labour voters 'we will ignore you'. They are the opposition, after all.
I don't think there's any good way forward for Labour on any front at the moment, as you say only events will make matters clearer.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 02 Jul, 2016 11:35 am

Yesterday's by-election in Thanet - UKIP hold over Labour by 14 votes, a LibDem candidate got 33.

As is said by the Male Online - GAAAAAAAH!

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sat 02 Jul, 2016 11:39 am

AngryAsWell wrote:On the EU, people on the remain side also feel very strongly cheated by the lies told and the fact the referendum was just tossed together rather than thought through democratically.
Overheard on the met
If these %%%ers think they are taking us out and ruining our future they think again. We'll burn London to the ground if we need to.
Angry young men? Maybe, but they sounded serious.

I am not disagreeing with what you say, but surely the time to say this was prior to the vote?

I don't remember any problems getting the referendum bill passed....don't remember much publicity from anywhere saying that the whole premise of the referendum was faulty apart from in isolated cases

The Out site were ridiculed when they said they would not accept the vote.......

Suddenly seeing it has gone the wrong way the Remainers are now seen as sore losers.

The fact that you are right in what you say does not change this

And what you say about 'Angry Young Men' - would you also accept riots on the streets of cities where the Tory austerity policies have destroyed people's hopes? There are people who do not see Leave as being a problem as they have lost faith in the whole political process and just wanted a chance to kick the Government.

And they have seen a Labour Party tacitly supporting these policies........and now we see the desire of a return to the days of triangulation and Tory Tracking. People seem not to want Corbyn because he cannot win and election, probably because the keep getting told by Tories and their own MPs.

His policies though are pretty popular from what I can see (and you can see Miliband is behind them as well from his comments since last year) and there is a real risk we pull back on them.

I imagine if they took up against a Tory Government voted in on 36% of those who voted then they would be beaten back both physically and politically. And we see what happens when Labour members start reacting against an unconstitutional attempt to unseat the leader they voted for last year - told to get back in their box and being accused of 'threatening behaviour' at every turn

I am not, in principal, against direct action but it is a very dangerous can to open!

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 02 Jul, 2016 11:50 am

Rowson

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... st-cartoon" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 02 Jul, 2016 11:53 am

howsillyofme1 wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote:On the EU, people on the remain side also feel very strongly cheated by the lies told and the fact the referendum was just tossed together rather than thought through democratically.
Overheard on the met
If these %%%ers think they are taking us out and ruining our future they think again. We'll burn London to the ground if we need to.
Angry young men? Maybe, but they sounded serious.

I am not disagreeing with what you say, but surely the time to say this was prior to the vote?

I don't remember any problems getting the referendum bill passed....don't remember much publicity from anywhere saying that the whole premise of the referendum was faulty apart from in isolated cases

The Out site were ridiculed when they said they would not accept the vote.......

Suddenly seeing it has gone the wrong way the Remainers are now seen as sore losers.

The fact that you are right in what you say does not change this

And what you say about 'Angry Young Men' - would you also accept riots on the streets of cities where the Tory austerity policies have destroyed people's hopes? There are people who do not see Leave as being a problem as they have lost faith in the whole political process and just wanted a chance to kick the Government.

And they have seen a Labour Party tacitly supporting these policies........and now we see the desire of a return to the days of triangulation and Tory Tracking. People seem not to want Corbyn because he cannot win and election, probably because the keep getting told by Tories and their own MPs.

His policies though are pretty popular from what I can see (and you can see Miliband is behind them as well from his comments since last year) and there is a real risk we pull back on them.

I imagine if they took up against a Tory Government voted in on 36% of those who voted then they would be beaten back both physically and politically. And we see what happens when Labour members start reacting against an unconstitutional attempt to unseat the leader they voted for last year - told to get back in their box and being accused of 'threatening behaviour' at every turn

I am not, in principal, against direct action but it is a very dangerous can to open!

At no point have I said I support direct action or violence on the street - at no point ever! So please don't suggest I have.
I'm just pointing out to those who suggest that outer's would not take rejection laying down (and all that implies) so just accept it, that there are equally strong feeling on the remain side as well.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 02 Jul, 2016 11:55 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:The point is, it is not possible for the Labour party to openly tell people who voted to leave "you were wrong and we will ignore you".

(I know the LibDems basically have, but nobody cares about them anyway)

It is possible Article 50 will never be invoked, it is possible there will be some sort of second referendum. But only events can cause this (which might create widespread "buyers remorse" in due course) and major political parties in the meantime can't be seen to be "defying the voters".

There might be mileage in a "we are the 48%" *movement* (not a new political party, FFS) to create the conditions for change. But that is different

Anyone showing a keenness to invoke article 50 ASAP is alienating to anyone who thinks such an act shows considerably poor judgement. In repeatedly pressing the Tory government to invoke article 50 immediately, Corbyn is echoing Nigel Farage. The Tories' caution comes across as far more sensible when faced with such a momumental decision and so, at present time, is playing to both "inners" and "outers". As the majority of "outers" are Tories I see no reason for Labour to be the ones to represent them in pressing the government to keep to their promises. Labour are entitled to follow whatever policy they wish and may well put representing leave voters first, but it must be expected this will come at a cost. By insisting the mandate of leave voters must be respected, Labour is currently intimating that immigration must be curtailed as this is what they appear to have voted for. As this means we would not be able to belong to the single market, this is a direction I can't support. As everyone says Corbyn is before all else honest, his words give me no hope for a change of stance. Give the anti-immigrant voters some hope their agenda will be respected and there's no honest way of turning back. I understand what everyone is saying about acknowledging the choice of leave voters, but doing so will lose remain voters, just as Labour's pro-EU stance previously lost voters to Ukip.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sat 02 Jul, 2016 11:56 am

gilsey wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:The point is, it is not possible for the Labour party to openly tell people who voted to leave "you were wrong and we will ignore you".
I don't think they should. I just think going along with it with apparent enthusiasm is telling the majority of labour voters 'we will ignore you'. They are the opposition, after all.
I don't think there's any good way forward for Labour on any front at the moment, as you say only events will make matters clearer.

I think this perception of 'apparent enthusiasm' is just that a perception....I don't detect this enthusiasm at all from anyone.

Corbyn is quite rigid in his views (and that is one of his weaknesses) and if the electorate votes for Leave he thinks that should be respected. I agree though that Labour should just stay quiet now though and watch what happens and react to events.

Personally I find this prevarication and dismissal of the vote to be distasteful - just like I found the continual whinging from the SNP after they lost.

No Labour MP voted against the referendum bill (if this is wrong please correct me) which laid out who could vote and what the result would mean.....it was all out there. The Out campaigned lied....and so did the Tories in 2010 and 2015 GE campaign......is this sufficient for a recall election?

I am sorry if I can keep going on about it but I really do not like the use of A50 as an excuse to prevaricate. I find is disrespectful to the voters, and to the rest of Europe. If you want the Labour Party to stand up and say, like the LD, that we will campaign and ignoring the result completely then fine, but don't be underhand about it.

There will be no GE until 2020 and no second referendum planned so the democratic message is clear until there has been some other vote where this is considered. Out!

This all applies to the Tories even more as they were the ones who campaigned for bloody Brexit and now are trying to wriggle out of it

The political classes are doing nothing to endear themselves at the moment

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sat 02 Jul, 2016 12:05 pm

Willow904 wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:The point is, it is not possible for the Labour party to openly tell people who voted to leave "you were wrong and we will ignore you".

(I know the LibDems basically have, but nobody cares about them anyway)

It is possible Article 50 will never be invoked, it is possible there will be some sort of second referendum. But only events can cause this (which might create widespread "buyers remorse" in due course) and major political parties in the meantime can't be seen to be "defying the voters".

There might be mileage in a "we are the 48%" *movement* (not a new political party, FFS) to create the conditions for change. But that is different
Anyone showing a keenness to invoke article 50 ASAP is alienating to anyone who thinks such an act shows considerably poor judgement. In repeatedly pressing the Tory government to invoke article 50 immediately, Corbyn is echoing Nigel Farage. The Tories' caution comes across as far more sensible when faced with such a momumental decision and so, at present time, is playing to both "inners" and "outers". As the majority of "outers" are Tories I see no reason for Labour to be the ones to represent them in pressing the government to keep to their promises. Labour are entitled to follow whatever policy they wish and may well put representing leave voters first, but it must be expected this will come at a cost. By insisting the mandate of leave voters must be respected, Labour is currently intimating that immigration must be curtailed as this is what they appear to have voted for. As this means we would not be able to belong to the single market, this is a direction I can't support. As everyone says Corbyn is before all else honest, his words give me no hope for a change of stance. Give the anti-immigrant voters some hope their agenda will be respected and there's no honest way of turning back. I understand what everyone is saying about acknowledging the choice of leave voters, but doing so will lose remain voters, just as Labour's pro-EU stance previously lost voters to Ukip.

I find this quite offensive to be honest

We have just had a democratic election and we are now saying it should be ignored because it is a bad idea. In that case we should just be able to ignore all Tory Governments since 1979 as they have caused massive damage to the UK!

Why is a delay in invoking A50 sensible? What does it achieve? What is going to change between now and 6 months or a years time? How long should we wait?

I can accept a short delay due to the lack of competence from the Leave side in having any idea what they want but that is letting them off the hook and will make very little material difference to the deal that is secured

The only way delaying A50 can help is if it is a permanent delay......if that is what you want then come out and say it clearly to the electorate so they have your honest view

I also find that it is also increases the likelihood of a permanent and negative impact on the EU - and if that is what you want then you are as bad as the destroyers in UKIP........

If you are waiting for events to change the electors minds then you will waiting a long time

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sat 02 Jul, 2016 12:06 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote:On the EU, people on the remain side also feel very strongly cheated by the lies told and the fact the referendum was just tossed together rather than thought through democratically.
Overheard on the met
If these %%%ers think they are taking us out and ruining our future they think again. We'll burn London to the ground if we need to.
Angry young men? Maybe, but they sounded serious.

I am not disagreeing with what you say, but surely the time to say this was prior to the vote?

I don't remember any problems getting the referendum bill passed....don't remember much publicity from anywhere saying that the whole premise of the referendum was faulty apart from in isolated cases

The Out site were ridiculed when they said they would not accept the vote.......

Suddenly seeing it has gone the wrong way the Remainers are now seen as sore losers.

The fact that you are right in what you say does not change this

And what you say about 'Angry Young Men' - would you also accept riots on the streets of cities where the Tory austerity policies have destroyed people's hopes? There are people who do not see Leave as being a problem as they have lost faith in the whole political process and just wanted a chance to kick the Government.

And they have seen a Labour Party tacitly supporting these policies........and now we see the desire of a return to the days of triangulation and Tory Tracking. People seem not to want Corbyn because he cannot win and election, probably because the keep getting told by Tories and their own MPs.

His policies though are pretty popular from what I can see (and you can see Miliband is behind them as well from his comments since last year) and there is a real risk we pull back on them.

I imagine if they took up against a Tory Government voted in on 36% of those who voted then they would be beaten back both physically and politically. And we see what happens when Labour members start reacting against an unconstitutional attempt to unseat the leader they voted for last year - told to get back in their box and being accused of 'threatening behaviour' at every turn

I am not, in principal, against direct action but it is a very dangerous can to open!
At no point have I said I support direct action or violence on the street - at no point ever! So please don't suggest I have.
I'm just pointing out to those who suggest that outer's would not take rejection laying down (and all that implies) so just accept it, that there are equally strong feeling on the remain side as well.

I would be more careful in how you word things if that is the case....

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 02 Jul, 2016 12:12 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:
I am not disagreeing with what you say, but surely the time to say this was prior to the vote?

I don't remember any problems getting the referendum bill passed....don't remember much publicity from anywhere saying that the whole premise of the referendum was faulty apart from in isolated cases

The Out site were ridiculed when they said they would not accept the vote.......

Suddenly seeing it has gone the wrong way the Remainers are now seen as sore losers.

The fact that you are right in what you say does not change this

And what you say about 'Angry Young Men' - would you also accept riots on the streets of cities where the Tory austerity policies have destroyed people's hopes? There are people who do not see Leave as being a problem as they have lost faith in the whole political process and just wanted a chance to kick the Government.

And they have seen a Labour Party tacitly supporting these policies........and now we see the desire of a return to the days of triangulation and Tory Tracking. People seem not to want Corbyn because he cannot win and election, probably because the keep getting told by Tories and their own MPs.

His policies though are pretty popular from what I can see (and you can see Miliband is behind them as well from his comments since last year) and there is a real risk we pull back on them.

I imagine if they took up against a Tory Government voted in on 36% of those who voted then they would be beaten back both physically and politically. And we see what happens when Labour members start reacting against an unconstitutional attempt to unseat the leader they voted for last year - told to get back in their box and being accused of 'threatening behaviour' at every turn

I am not, in principal, against direct action but it is a very dangerous can to open!
At no point have I said I support direct action or violence on the street - at no point ever! So please don't suggest I have.
I'm just pointing out to those who suggest that outer's would not take rejection laying down (and all that implies) so just accept it, that there are equally strong feeling on the remain side as well.

I would be more careful in how you word things if that is the case....

"On the EU, people on the remain side also feel very strongly cheated by the lies told and the fact the referendum was just tossed together rather than thought through democratically.
Overheard on the met
If these %%%ers think they are taking us out and ruining our future they think again. We'll burn London to the ground if we need to.
Angry young men? Maybe, but they sounded serious."

That's a report of what I overheard, not a request for it to happen.
Don't twist my words.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sat 02 Jul, 2016 12:12 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote: At no point have I said I support direct action or violence on the street - at no point ever! So please don't suggest I have.
I'm just pointing out to those who suggest that outer's would not take rejection laying down (and all that implies) so just accept it, that there are equally strong feeling on the remain side as well.

I would be more careful in how you word things if that is the case....
"On the EU, people on the remain side also feel very strongly cheated by the lies told and the fact the referendum was just tossed together rather than thought through democratically.
Overheard on the met
If these %%%ers think they are taking us out and ruining our future they think again. We'll burn London to the ground if we need to.
Angry young men? Maybe, but they sounded serious."

That's a report of what I overheard, not a request for it to happen.
Don't twist my words.

I didn't twist your words

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 02 Jul, 2016 12:18 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:
I would be more careful in how you word things if that is the case....
"On the EU, people on the remain side also feel very strongly cheated by the lies told and the fact the referendum was just tossed together rather than thought through democratically.
Overheard on the met
If these %%%ers think they are taking us out and ruining our future they think again. We'll burn London to the ground if we need to.
Angry young men? Maybe, but they sounded serious."

That's a report of what I overheard, not a request for it to happen.
Don't twist my words.

I didn't twist your words

Getting a bit sick of you to be honest, are we into censorship now, to the point I cannot report something overheard on public transport without being accused of calling for it to happen?
I repeat, I have never in my life called for or approved of violence on the streets - or anywhere come to that.
I will not be responding to you again.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 02 Jul, 2016 12:20 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:
Willow904 wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:The point is, it is not possible for the Labour party to openly tell people who voted to leave "you were wrong and we will ignore you".

(I know the LibDems basically have, but nobody cares about them anyway)

It is possible Article 50 will never be invoked, it is possible there will be some sort of second referendum. But only events can cause this (which might create widespread "buyers remorse" in due course) and major political parties in the meantime can't be seen to be "defying the voters".

There might be mileage in a "we are the 48%" *movement* (not a new political party, FFS) to create the conditions for change. But that is different
Anyone showing a keenness to invoke article 50 ASAP is alienating to anyone who thinks such an act shows considerably poor judgement. In repeatedly pressing the Tory government to invoke article 50 immediately, Corbyn is echoing Nigel Farage. The Tories' caution comes across as far more sensible when faced with such a momumental decision and so, at present time, is playing to both "inners" and "outers". As the majority of "outers" are Tories I see no reason for Labour to be the ones to represent them in pressing the government to keep to their promises. Labour are entitled to follow whatever policy they wish and may well put representing leave voters first, but it must be expected this will come at a cost. By insisting the mandate of leave voters must be respected, Labour is currently intimating that immigration must be curtailed as this is what they appear to have voted for. As this means we would not be able to belong to the single market, this is a direction I can't support. As everyone says Corbyn is before all else honest, his words give me no hope for a change of stance. Give the anti-immigrant voters some hope their agenda will be respected and there's no honest way of turning back. I understand what everyone is saying about acknowledging the choice of leave voters, but doing so will lose remain voters, just as Labour's pro-EU stance previously lost voters to Ukip.

I find this quite offensive to be honest

We have just had a democratic election and we are now saying it should be ignored because it is a bad idea. In that case we should just be able to ignore all Tory Governments since 1979 as they have caused massive damage to the UK!

Why is a delay in invoking A50 sensible? What does it achieve? What is going to change between now and 6 months or a years time? How long should we wait?

I can accept a short delay due to the lack of competence from the Leave side in having any idea what they want but that is letting them off the hook and will make very little material difference to the deal that is secured

The only way delaying A50 can help is if it is a permanent delay......if that is what you want then come out and say it clearly to the electorate so they have your honest view

I also find that it is also increases the likelihood of a permanent and negative impact on the EU - and if that is what you want then you are as bad as the destroyers in UKIP........

If you are waiting for events to change the electors minds then you will waiting a long time

I agree delaying invoking article 50 from a party that part campaigned for out and who have a majority of their own voters supporting leave is duplicitous, but that's the Tories for you and their treachery is already being spun as sensible and acceptable and that's how it will be perceived and those pressing to get on with it will be perceived as reckless, quite rightly in my opinion, as clearly no one has prepared for "out".

If Jeremy Corbyn stood up right now and said he supported a single market Norway type relationship when we leave he could even now retain my vote as this would signal a desire for continuity in terms of standards, regulations etc that I could support but at this point in time only the Libdems are being clear on this point. I know you find it impossible to understand how everything Corbyn has said and done since the referendum has disappointed and dismayed me, but I hope you can appreciate this is how I feel and there is nothing wrong in my feelings, there is nothing wrong in my wanting to continue with as close ties to Europe as possible and there is nothing wrong in me deciding Labour may no longer the party for me because it and its members and voters do not share my strength of feeling in this.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 02 Jul, 2016 12:26 pm

Can we all play nice, please

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sat 02 Jul, 2016 12:26 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote: "On the EU, people on the remain side also feel very strongly cheated by the lies told and the fact the referendum was just tossed together rather than thought through democratically.
Overheard on the met
If these %%%ers think they are taking us out and ruining our future they think again. We'll burn London to the ground if we need to.
Angry young men? Maybe, but they sounded serious."

That's a report of what I overheard, not a request for it to happen.
Don't twist my words.

I didn't twist your words
Getting a bit sick of you to be honest, are we into censorship now, to the point I cannot report something overheard on public transport without being accused of calling for it to happen?
I repeat, I have never in my life called for or approved of violence on the streets - or anywhere come to that.
I will not be responding to you again.

Get over yourself!

You made a post of all one paragraph with no indication that you disagreed with their sentiments in your summary sentence at the end - it suggested to me a tacit agreement

I accept that you do not advocate violence but my initial perception was as I reflected it and I did not twist your words

As to not replying to me anymore and being sick of me.

Sorry if I do not bow down to your opinions androll over

I find you views on the damage to be caused by Exit to be right but I also accept that there has been a democratic vote on this and I find all the current attempts to delay and ignore it distatsteful for the reasons I made out earlier

If you want to stay in then propose that Labour or someone else takes a position of Remain no matter what the refrendum said
If you want out then launch A50 immediately

I personally do not see that A50 delay does anything to materially help us and I also think it endangers the future of the EU.....which to me would be a disgraceful act

I respect your right to disagree with me but if you want to take your ball home then go ahead and do so

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 02 Jul, 2016 12:31 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Can we all play nice, please

I will, but I won't sit by whilst my words are twisted into something totally abhorrent to me.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sat 02 Jul, 2016 12:35 pm

Willow904 wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:
Willow904 wrote: Anyone showing a keenness to invoke article 50 ASAP is alienating to anyone who thinks such an act shows considerably poor judgement. In repeatedly pressing the Tory government to invoke article 50 immediately, Corbyn is echoing Nigel Farage. The Tories' caution comes across as far more sensible when faced with such a momumental decision and so, at present time, is playing to both "inners" and "outers". As the majority of "outers" are Tories I see no reason for Labour to be the ones to represent them in pressing the government to keep to their promises. Labour are entitled to follow whatever policy they wish and may well put representing leave voters first, but it must be expected this will come at a cost. By insisting the mandate of leave voters must be respected, Labour is currently intimating that immigration must be curtailed as this is what they appear to have voted for. As this means we would not be able to belong to the single market, this is a direction I can't support. As everyone says Corbyn is before all else honest, his words give me no hope for a change of stance. Give the anti-immigrant voters some hope their agenda will be respected and there's no honest way of turning back. I understand what everyone is saying about acknowledging the choice of leave voters, but doing so will lose remain voters, just as Labour's pro-EU stance previously lost voters to Ukip.

I find this quite offensive to be honest

We have just had a democratic election and we are now saying it should be ignored because it is a bad idea. In that case we should just be able to ignore all Tory Governments since 1979 as they have caused massive damage to the UK!

Why is a delay in invoking A50 sensible? What does it achieve? What is going to change between now and 6 months or a years time? How long should we wait?

I can accept a short delay due to the lack of competence from the Leave side in having any idea what they want but that is letting them off the hook and will make very little material difference to the deal that is secured

The only way delaying A50 can help is if it is a permanent delay......if that is what you want then come out and say it clearly to the electorate so they have your honest view

I also find that it is also increases the likelihood of a permanent and negative impact on the EU - and if that is what you want then you are as bad as the destroyers in UKIP........

If you are waiting for events to change the electors minds then you will waiting a long time
I agree delaying invoking article 50 from a party that part campaigned for out and who have a majority of their own voters supporting leave is duplicitous, but that's the Tories for you and their treachery is already being spun as sensible and acceptable and that's how it will be perceived and those pressing to get on with it will be perceived as reckless, quite rightly in my opinion, as clearly no one has prepared for "out".

If Jeremy Corbyn stood up right now and said he supported a single market Norway type relationship when we leave he could even now retain my vote as this would signal a desire for continuity in terms of standards, regulations etc that I could support but at this point in time only the Libdems are being clear on this point. I know you find it impossible to understand how everything Corbyn has said and done since the referendum has disappointed and dismayed me, but I hope you can appreciate this is how I feel and there is nothing wrong in my feelings, there is nothing wrong in my wanting to continue with as close ties to Europe as possible and there is nothing wrong in me deciding Labour may no longer the party for me because it and its members and voters do not share my strength of feeling in this.

Willow,

I can undertsand why he has disappointed you if you want such a statement for Reamin

I want to Remain too but am a little bit more pessimistic about how we can do it

The Lib Dem approach is to seek a democratic mandate via a GE by standing on a Remain platform. The chances of success are very low and it looks like no GE until 2020......I can't see us having that long. Looks okay on paper but in reality I think it is incoherent

The declared Norway option is something we can strive for but that option will not be on the table in my view looking at what the cvil service has said about the negotiations. It will only be available after negotiation after we have exited. Also, the Norway option is Free Movement and Schengen. In this I do not think Corbyn is your problem to be honest.....a lot of Labour MPs have already been going on about finding a solution with regards to immigration so I am not sure whether it will fly

I am starting from a premis that we are Out - and we need to do it with as little damage to us and to Europe. This means no artificial delaying of A50 invocation and, in my personal view, we look for a Norway type option but I am not sure 'Norway' will be acceptable to Labour MPs or the elctorate as a whole

It is an appalling situation...thanks Cameron!

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sat 02 Jul, 2016 12:37 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:Can we all play nice, please
I will, but I won't sit by whilst my words are twisted into something totally abhorrent to me.

I do not accept at all I twisted your words - I would say it is my misinterpretation of a badly worded post

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Sat 02 Jul, 2016 12:39 pm

Well, one thing you can say about the last week, is Britain is more politically engaged than it has been for decades. The longer the vacuum of leadership goes on, from both sides now because the coup is paralysing labour, the more active people will become.

Trump is going to winthe presidency you know, I have an awful feeling about it, Hilary is simply too tainted by scandal. This is a year that is going to go down in history as a massive turning point in global history.

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Sat 02 Jul, 2016 12:45 pm

YOu know in all my days, I don't think I can remember the british getting off their arse to support a politician. Not like this, I don't think it's ever happened before. Rallies accross the country, and then we have the pro eu demo in London.

mbc1955 · Post by **mbc1955** » Sat 02 Jul, 2016 12:47 pm

Temulkar wrote:Well, one thing you can say about the last week, is Britain is more politically engaged than it has been for decades. The longer the vacuum of leadership goes on, from both sides now because the coup is paralysing labour, the more active people will become.

Trump is going to winthe presidency you know, I have an awful feeling about it, Hilary is simply too tainted by scandal. This is a year that is going to go down in history as a massive turning point in global history.

I hope you're wrong about Trump. The overwhelming majority of the indications coming out of America at this stage forcefully suggest that you will be wrong, but I say at this stage because there are four months between now and the day of the Election, and much can go wrong. But that also means that much can go even wronger for the idiot Trump, too.

Call me naive, but just because we have self-inflicted the most irrevocably stupid, self-destructive and frightening thing possible does not automatically mean that America will do the same.

If only because the Rule of Three could only end up with Nuclear War.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sat 02 Jul, 2016 12:47 pm

Temulkar wrote:YOu know in all my days, I don't think I can remember the british getting off their arse to support a politician. Not like this, I don't think it's ever happened before. Rallies accross the country, and then we have the pro eu demo in London.

I hope you're right but we've been here before and these movements have not made much of a dent on the apolitical classes

mbc1955 · Post by **mbc1955** » Sat 02 Jul, 2016 12:49 pm

Temulkar wrote:YOu know in all my days, I don't think I can remember the british getting off their arse to support a politician. Not like this, I don't think it's ever happened before. Rallies accross the country, and then we have the pro eu demo in London.

Unless you count Churchill's funeral, which was for a dead politician, it's not happened in my life either and I would saythat the last one to get this kind of personal support was Sir Oswald Mosley.

That's not a good parallel, is it?

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 02 Jul, 2016 12:51 pm

Good-afternoon, everyone.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 02 Jul, 2016 12:52 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:
Willow904 wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:
I find this quite offensive to be honest

We have just had a democratic election and we are now saying it should be ignored because it is a bad idea. In that case we should just be able to ignore all Tory Governments since 1979 as they have caused massive damage to the UK!

Why is a delay in invoking A50 sensible? What does it achieve? What is going to change between now and 6 months or a years time? How long should we wait?

I can accept a short delay due to the lack of competence from the Leave side in having any idea what they want but that is letting them off the hook and will make very little material difference to the deal that is secured

The only way delaying A50 can help is if it is a permanent delay......if that is what you want then come out and say it clearly to the electorate so they have your honest view

I also find that it is also increases the likelihood of a permanent and negative impact on the EU - and if that is what you want then you are as bad as the destroyers in UKIP........

If you are waiting for events to change the electors minds then you will waiting a long time
I agree delaying invoking article 50 from a party that part campaigned for out and who have a majority of their own voters supporting leave is duplicitous, but that's the Tories for you and their treachery is already being spun as sensible and acceptable and that's how it will be perceived and those pressing to get on with it will be perceived as reckless, quite rightly in my opinion, as clearly no one has prepared for "out".

If Jeremy Corbyn stood up right now and said he supported a single market Norway type relationship when we leave he could even now retain my vote as this would signal a desire for continuity in terms of standards, regulations etc that I could support but at this point in time only the Libdems are being clear on this point. I know you find it impossible to understand how everything Corbyn has said and done since the referendum has disappointed and dismayed me, but I hope you can appreciate this is how I feel and there is nothing wrong in my feelings, there is nothing wrong in my wanting to continue with as close ties to Europe as possible and there is nothing wrong in me deciding Labour may no longer the party for me because it and its members and voters do not share my strength of feeling in this.

Willow,

I can undertsand why he has disappointed you if you want such a statement for Reamin

I want to Remain too but am a little bit more pessimistic about how we can do it

The Lib Dem approach is to seek a democratic mandate via a GE by standing on a Remain platform. The chances of success are very low and it looks like no GE until 2020......I can't see us having that long. Looks okay on paper but in reality I think it is incoherent

The declared Norway option is something we can strive for but that option will not be on the table in my view looking at what the cvil service has said about the negotiations. It will only be available after negotiation after we have exited. Also, the Norway option is Free Movement and Schengen. In this I do not think Corbyn is your problem to be honest.....a lot of Labour MPs have already been going on about finding a solution with regards to immigration so I am not sure whether it will fly

I am starting from a premis that we are Out - and we need to do it with as little damage to us and to Europe. This means no artificial delaying of A50 invocation and, in my personal view, we look for a Norway type option but I am not sure 'Norway' will be acceptable to Labour MPs or the elctorate as a whole

It is an appalling situation...thanks Cameron!

As Corbyn is in charge I can only respond to his indicated direction and at the moment he has lost Labour my vote. If someone else is in charge and says something different I will consider whether that is acceptable to me, but I see no point in guessing how another Labour leader would respond to this situation. This isn't a Corbyn point. This is a point about Labour in general and the fact that I see little likelihood of "outers" who want an end to immigration being able to be accommodated in the same party as voters like me who want close ties with the EU and value multiculturalism and free movement in both directions. More importantly, our economic well-being relies on us being in the single market and I am looking for leadership from someone who is willing to make that point. John McDonnell stated some facts ( that gave hope to those looking to end immigration), said we'd have a debate on it and go forward on what people decide. That's not the leadership I'm looking for. I'm looking for him to tell people why he's for the single market and try to convince them, not ask them what they think he should do!

Edited to add: contingent on the Tories taking us out of course. Until then I still think Labour should keep quiet. If we don't leave, there won't be any choices to be made.

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Sat 02 Jul, 2016 12:54 pm

mbc1955 wrote:
Temulkar wrote:Well, one thing you can say about the last week, is Britain is more politically engaged than it has been for decades. The longer the vacuum of leadership goes on, from both sides now because the coup is paralysing labour, the more active people will become.

Trump is going to winthe presidency you know, I have an awful feeling about it, Hilary is simply too tainted by scandal. This is a year that is going to go down in history as a massive turning point in global history.
I hope you're wrong about Trump. The overwhelming majority of the indications coming out of America at this stage forcefully suggest that you will be wrong, but I say at this stage because there are four months between now and the day of the Election, and much can go wrong. But that also means that much can go even wronger for the idiot Trump, too.

Call me naive, but just because we have self-inflicted the most irrevocably stupid, self-destructive and frightening thing possible does not automatically mean that America will do the same.

If only because the Rule of Three could only end up with Nuclear War.

Well you say that, but...

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... ump-brexit" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here is one actual BTL comment. The mind-bending parallels with what we've just done, I leave readers to work out for themselves:

I am a Sanders supporter. And I pretty much agree with what the voters in the article said, except for the manufacturing company owner. I am considering voting for Trump, who is disgusting, uninformed, discriminatory and very dangerous.
The political system we have has left us with only two choices. If we vote for Clinton, we vote for more of the same. And we vote for the Democratic party to continue ignoring what the people of America need.
I personally would probably be better off, at least financially, if Clinton won. And I certainly don't expect anything good from Trump.
I am trying the only move at my disposal to force the establishment of this country to take care of all of its people, not just the 1%. It may be a disastrous move to vote for Trump, but we already have many disasters and they continue to get worse.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sat 02 Jul, 2016 12:56 pm

I see that it seems to be that the accusation that I twisted someone's words seems to have been accepted (judging on the likes for the post accusing it)

I do not mind being challenged for my politics or my views but I if people think I twist people's words then I no longer have any credibility

I will no longer post here

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Sat 02 Jul, 2016 1:01 pm

Neil Kinnock talking about the filthy attacks on a political leader. [youtube]Rgqv72_HACU[/youtube]