Thursday, 7th July 2016

[gilsey]

it is really an odd thing to me how many on this board think that 172 Labour MPs are, well what. Evil Blairites? Dupes? differently to me. [/quote="SpinningHugo"]

There. Fixed that for you.

Yes, that is fair. i think the same way as 172 MPs, including the once very popular Ed Miliband. Most people here don't. I am, honestly, completely baffled by it.

Some of the regulars, RoT, AK, do think Corbyn should go but don't want to get into an argument about it of course, but the bulk don't.

I think you're wrong, most here do want Corbyn to go, when there's a good alternative candidate/s.
Of course Corbyn can be beaten, democratically, by a younger, more fluently-spoken, principled anti-austerity candidate.

[tinyclanger2]

Isn't it possible simply to not read stuff one knows is going to annoy one?

I do it all the time ...

[howsillyofme1]

If this referendum was a bad idea (as most seem to think), wasn't it then a serious misjudgement for Corbyn to have supported one?

Yes.

The European Union (Referendum) Bill 2013-14 was a private member's bill of the Parliament of the United Kingdom designed to make provision for a referendum on membership of the European Union to be held in 2017 following renegotiation of terms between the European Union and the United Kingdom government. The bill ceased to be considered by Parliament after January 2014 and did not become law.[1] However, a subsequent bill with the same objective, the European Union Referendum Act 2015, was introduced by the newly-elected Conservative government in May 2015 was passed and received royal assent on 17 December 2015.

The act makes no provision for the result to be legally binding on the government or on any future government due to the principle of parliamentary sovereignty. The result of the referendum is to be a single majority vote of all four constituent countries of the United Kingdom and Gibraltar with no super majorities, double majorities or any minimum turnout threshold required for the vote to pass which will be declared by Chief Counting Officer (CCO) Jenny Watson at Manchester Town Hall on Friday 24 June 2016. The act does not specify any specific consequences that would follow the result of the referendum. In the event of a "Leave" vote, the government would decide under what circumstances to invoke Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty to begin a two-year process of negotiations for Britain to leave the EU.[15] European Union law would remain enforceable in the United Kingdom unless the European Communities Act 1972 were repealed.[6]

I had a look at the vote for this bill and saw 6 Labour MPs who voted for the referendum. They would be expected as they were for Leave. Corbyn wasn't one. If he was pro Leave wouldn't he have voted for this with Skinner and the others?

[Tubby Isaacs]

Actually, the plan seems to have been executed fairly competently v Corbyn. Small group went first, 40 others or so weren't in on it, but agreed and followed. Heavyweights from the past joined in.

Competently???? Corbyn still in charge, 200,000 additional party members splitting on the most pessimistic estimate for Corbyn 80:20 in his favour. Jeez. I'd hate to see it when these people execute a plan incompetently.

But Corbyn didn't resign because he's unassailable among members because of people joining to support him.

Democracy, what a bastard, eh?

Ask yourself 2 things:

1. If he's so incompetent, why has the party membership increased by 200,000 in the last fortnight.
2. If the Labour Party would stop ripping itself to shreds, largely because elements of the party don't respect a democratic mandate, & instead was to galvanise all of these people getting involved in politics, how efficient an Opposition could they be, both inside Parliament & in the wider community?

This is Corbyn asking for loyalty from MPs? He's got the IDS problem. When you've attacked your own side so much, you're a dead duck as a leader.

Where were these members when they could have been contributed to the referendum effort? But they suddenly turn up when Corbyn is under pressure?

Call that democracy, if you like. I think that's dangerously close to a personality cult. To be clear, not accusing all or most Corbyn supporters of being that, but it's these extra ones who are keeping him in power. And given the complete mess the sectarian left get it into all the time, I'm not optimistic about all these members.

I don't accept it would be fine if everyone got behind him. I don't like his Article 50 call at all. If he's fluffing this crisis, when is he going to be any good?

[yahyah]

Is Leadsom really only 53, or is that something else that is not strictly accurate ?
Or does being right wing age one, like with Farage ?

[citizenJA]

[Rant continues]

Also as I keep saying, the policy difference between left and right of Labour are really very small. What we're dealing with here is mainly personalities and power.

With the will, those in power in Labour could sit down and figure this out within hours, with a few concessions and agreement to disagree in some areas (mainly defence and foreign policy).

Yes! Well said, Paul! Listening, humility, taking a time-out, coming together to get on with it.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Corbyn voted for a Referendum in 2008.

[howsillyofme1]

Actually, the plan seems to have been executed fairly competently v Corbyn. Small group went first, 40 others or so weren't in on it, but agreed and followed. Heavyweights from the past joined in.

Competently???? Corbyn still in charge, 200,000 additional party members splitting on the most pessimistic estimate for Corbyn 80:20 in his favour. Jeez. I'd hate to see it when these people execute a plan incompetently.

But Corbyn didn't resign because he's unassailable among members because of people joining to support him.

Democracy, what a bastard, eh?

Ask yourself 2 things:

1. If he's so incompetent, why has the party membership increased by 200,000 in the last fortnight.
2. If the Labour Party would stop ripping itself to shreds, largely because elements of the party don't respect a democratic mandate, & instead was to galvanise all of these people getting involved in politics, how efficient an Opposition could they be, both inside Parliament & in the wider community?

This is Corbyn asking for loyalty from MPs? He's got the IDS problem. When you've attacked your own side so much, you're a dead duck as a leader.

Where were these members when they could have been contributed to the referendum effort? But they suddenly turn up when Corbyn is under pressure?

Call that democracy, if you like. I think that's dangerously close to a personality cult. To be clear, not accusing all or most Corbyn supporters of being that, but it's these extra ones who are keeping him in power. And given the complete mess the sectarian left get it into all the time, I'm not optimistic about all these members.

I don't accept it would be fine if everyone got behind him. I don't like his Article 50 call at all. If he's fluffing this crisis, when is he going to be any good?

You are welcome to your views Tubby

I have said why I disagree on your A50 view. I don't claim to be right as it is an opinion but there is certainty in some of the declarations here that I do not see being mirrored in the world outside

The view from outside the UK is that there is no reason for a delay beyond the election of a new PM. I think the message is clear that the line in the sand is mid September. Any delay beyond that will be considered us trying to get a tactical advantage and that will not end up well for us

[yahyah]

In a way it'll be a shame that Gove doesn't get to be PM. Having to sort out his own mess would have been fun to watch. But the stakes are too high.

If May wins the Brexiters will use that as an excuse if/when it goes wrong for the country.

[howsillyofme1]

Corbyn voted for a Referendum in 2008.

As did all the lib Dems

[Tubby Isaacs]

[Rant continues]

Also as I keep saying, the policy difference between left and right of Labour are really very small. What we're dealing with here is mainly personalities and power.

With the will, those in power in Labour could sit down and figure this out within hours, with a few concessions and agreement to disagree in some areas (mainly defence and foreign policy).

Social policy and economic policy aren't that different- even Umunna has said that.

The trouble is that they don't trust Corbyn on foreign policy. He isn't just a bloke who calls out illegal wars, he's been the full on anti-Westerner for 30 odd years.

Trident has an obvious solution- free vote, most likely to go through on Tory votes anyway. I've no idea if the review group is even still sitting.

Does that mean Labour should have no policies that differ from the Tories as the Tories can win all votes?

I for one am glad of a debate on Trident. It is a colloidal waste of money and is part of the same philosophy that has been behind the Brexit vote in an overestimating of the reality of our place in the world

The Tories plus Labour and DUP supporters of Trident are going to get more than 320, even with Trident as a whipped Labour Party position and Labour picking up 50 seats in the next election.

Free vote for all in Labour, even Shadow Cabinet, and there's no big split.

[RogerOThornhill]

Some of the regulars, RoT, AK, do think Corbyn should go but don't want to get into an argument about it of course, but the bulk don't.

Please don't invoke my name to make a point against others on here.

I said long ago that Corbyn ought to go before the 2020 election but the way that the 172 MPs have behaved is utterly pathetic.

Corbyn, quite rightly, thinks that he was elected by the members and until the members decide differently then he stays on.

The PLP should respect that and just get on with the bloody job of opposing the Tories not their own leader!

How hard is that to grasp?

If they want another election then they should put up or shut up. The dithering shown over the past couple of weeks says far more about them than it does about Corbyn.

[howsillyofme1]

Social policy and economic policy aren't that different- even Umunna has said that.

The trouble is that they don't trust Corbyn on foreign policy. He isn't just a bloke who calls out illegal wars, he's been the full on anti-Westerner for 30 odd years.

Trident has an obvious solution- free vote, most likely to go through on Tory votes anyway. I've no idea if the review group is even still sitting.

Does that mean Labour should have no policies that differ from the Tories as the Tories can win all votes?

I for one am glad of a debate on Trident. It is a colloidal waste of money and is part of the same philosophy that has been behind the Brexit vote in an overestimating of the reality of our place in the world

The Tories plus Labour and DUP supporters of Trident are going to get more than 320, even with Trident as a whipped Labour Party position and Labour picking up 50 seats in the next election.

Free vote for all in Labour, even Shadow Cabinet, and there's no big split.

I really don't care what the vote is

I support a policy of no Trident renewal...

[SpinningHugo]

Competently???? Corbyn still in charge, 200,000 additional party members splitting on the most pessimistic estimate for Corbyn 80:20 in his favour. Jeez. I'd hate to see it when these people execute a plan incompetently.
Democracy, what a bastard, eh?

Ask yourself 2 things:

1. If he's so incompetent, why has the party membership increased by 200,000 in the last fortnight.
2. If the Labour Party would stop ripping itself to shreds, largely because elements of the party don't respect a democratic mandate, & instead was to galvanise all of these people getting involved in politics, how efficient an Opposition could they be, both inside Parliament & in the wider community?

This is Corbyn asking for loyalty from MPs? He's got the IDS problem. When you've attacked your own side so much, you're a dead duck as a leader.

Where were these members when they could have been contributed to the referendum effort? But they suddenly turn up when Corbyn is under pressure?

Call that democracy, if you like. I think that's dangerously close to a personality cult. To be clear, not accusing all or most Corbyn supporters of being that, but it's these extra ones who are keeping him in power. And given the complete mess the sectarian left get it into all the time, I'm not optimistic about all these members.

I don't accept it would be fine if everyone got behind him. I don't like his Article 50 call at all. If he's fluffing this crisis, when is he going to be any good?

You are welcome to your views Tubby

I have said why I disagree on your A50 view. I don't claim to be right as it is an opinion but there is certainty in some of the declarations here that I do not see being mirrored in the world outside

The view from outside the UK is that there is no reason for a delay beyond the election of a new PM. I think the message is clear that the line in the sand is mid September. Any delay beyond that will be considered us trying to get a tactical advantage and that will not end up well for us

And how do you think they can force the UK to invoke Art 50?

[Tubby Isaacs]

Competently???? Corbyn still in charge, 200,000 additional party members splitting on the most pessimistic estimate for Corbyn 80:20 in his favour. Jeez. I'd hate to see it when these people execute a plan incompetently.
Democracy, what a bastard, eh?

Ask yourself 2 things:

1. If he's so incompetent, why has the party membership increased by 200,000 in the last fortnight.
2. If the Labour Party would stop ripping itself to shreds, largely because elements of the party don't respect a democratic mandate, & instead was to galvanise all of these people getting involved in politics, how efficient an Opposition could they be, both inside Parliament & in the wider community?

This is Corbyn asking for loyalty from MPs? He's got the IDS problem. When you've attacked your own side so much, you're a dead duck as a leader.

Where were these members when they could have been contributed to the referendum effort? But they suddenly turn up when Corbyn is under pressure?

Call that democracy, if you like. I think that's dangerously close to a personality cult. To be clear, not accusing all or most Corbyn supporters of being that, but it's these extra ones who are keeping him in power. And given the complete mess the sectarian left get it into all the time, I'm not optimistic about all these members.

I don't accept it would be fine if everyone got behind him. I don't like his Article 50 call at all. If he's fluffing this crisis, when is he going to be any good?

You are welcome to your views Tubby

I have said why I disagree on your A50 view. I don't claim to be right as it is an opinion but there is certainty in some of the declarations here that I do not see being mirrored in the world outside

The view from outside the UK is that there is no reason for a delay beyond the election of a new PM. I think the message is clear that the line in the sand is mid September. Any delay beyond that will be considered us trying to get a tactical advantage and that will not end up well for us

I think lots in the EU haven't given up on us getting out of the referendum result, and want us to stay. We're a counterbalance to Germany and the Eurozone, and some of them like our strongly pro-single market stance. The ones saying "go on, do it now" have half an eye on their sceptics at home and are wanting to show us ASAP we aren't getting a deal.

It's seriously difficult, but I see no reason to do the Article 50 now. The longer we can be kept in, the more chance of a reaction here to the economic repercussions.

[howsillyofme1]

I will break a rule and reply to Hugo

They cannot force us directly

The can though

Say any Single Market deal will include Schengen
Say that that no extension on two years limit
Take harder position on negotiations
etc etc

[howsillyofme1]

This is Corbyn asking for loyalty from MPs? He's got the IDS problem. When you've attacked your own side so much, you're a dead duck as a leader.

Where were these members when they could have been contributed to the referendum effort? But they suddenly turn up when Corbyn is under pressure?

Call that democracy, if you like. I think that's dangerously close to a personality cult. To be clear, not accusing all or most Corbyn supporters of being that, but it's these extra ones who are keeping him in power. And given the complete mess the sectarian left get it into all the time, I'm not optimistic about all these members.

I don't accept it would be fine if everyone got behind him. I don't like his Article 50 call at all. If he's fluffing this crisis, when is he going to be any good?

You are welcome to your views Tubby

I have said why I disagree on your A50 view. I don't claim to be right as it is an opinion but there is certainty in some of the declarations here that I do not see being mirrored in the world outside

The view from outside the UK is that there is no reason for a delay beyond the election of a new PM. I think the message is clear that the line in the sand is mid September. Any delay beyond that will be considered us trying to get a tactical advantage and that will not end up well for us

I think lots in the EU haven't given up on us getting out of the referendum result, and want us to stay. We're a counterbalance to Germany and the Eurozone, and some of them like our strongly pro-single market stance. The ones saying "go on, do it now" have half an eye on their sceptics at home and are wanting to show us ASAP we aren't getting a deal.

It's seriously difficult, but I see no reason to do the Article 50 now. The longer we can be kept in, the more chance of a reaction here to the economic repercussions.

Perhaps perhaps not

What is the mechanism for ignoring referendum and when will it happen?

I can see 3 ways

PM refuses to invoke A50
GE with clear mandate to overturn
New referendum

None of those seem likely in the medium term

Yesterday you said you thought it would be Leave and then rejoin after....do you envisage adoption of the Euro then?

I empathise with you but I see wishful thinking rather than a convincing plan. Until then I will stick with my assumption

[SpinningHugo]

I will break a rule and reply to Hugo

They cannot force us directly

The can though

Say any Single Market deal will include Schengen
Say that that no extension on two years limit
Take harder position on negotiations
etc etc

Right, so they can't then.

[howsillyofme1]

I'd like to ask a question

Leadsom vs May

Which of these two is Prime Ministerial and why?

I think they are both unpleasant right wingers and Leadsom is just the most loathsome of the two

May dodged the referendum campaign and was responsible for some unpleasantly xenophobic policies

[howsillyofme1]

I will break a rule and reply to Hugo

They cannot force us directly

The can though

Say any Single Market deal will include Schengen
Say that that no extension on two years limit
Take harder position on negotiations
etc etc

Right, so they can't then.

Just like the PLP but unfortunately they are bigger and more experienced at this than we are so let us see

I must admit I admire your self confidence...a living proof of Dunning Kruger Effect

[RogerOThornhill]

I'd like to ask a question

Leadsom vs May

Which of these two is Prime Ministerial and why?

I think they are both unpleasant right wingers and Leadsom is just the most loathsome of the two

May dodged the referendum campaign and was responsible for some unpleasantly xenophobic policies

Has to be May.

Leadsom is going to look shifty and untruthful with the stuff coming out about her CV.

I do wonder whether Gove actually wanted it that much and was simply doing it go get rid of Boris.

[Willow904]

If this referendum was a bad idea (as most seem to think), wasn't it then a serious misjudgement for Corbyn to have supported one?

Yes. I find it very difficult to trust the judgement of someone who wanted Brexit for a long time, even if they changed their mind at the last minute.

[citizenJA]

Isn't it possible simply to not read stuff one knows is going to annoy one?

I do it all the time ...

Yes. So do I.

[PaulfromYorkshire]

[Rant continues]

Also as I keep saying, the policy difference between left and right of Labour are really very small. What we're dealing with here is mainly personalities and power.

With the will, those in power in Labour could sit down and figure this out within hours, with a few concessions and agreement to disagree in some areas (mainly defence and foreign policy).

This is importantly wrong.

The trigger for the current crisis was the referendum. The bulk of the PLP are strong Remainers. Corbyn clearly is not. I believe Johnson on the efforts of Corbyn's office to undermine Remain.

As TI said yesterday, Corbyn's reaction on the Friday morning, that art 50 should be invoked immediately, was very revealing. Incredibly stupid on one view, revealing of his true attitude on another.

I too am a passionate Remainer. That is one of the reasons it is now incredibly important that Corbyn is removed,

I too am a passionate Remainer. But I happen to think Corbyn did an OK job when dealt a very tricky hand. Certainly, his performance doesn't merit this ridiculous factional behaviour. It's inexcusable and I for one will never forgive some of the ring leaders.

[ohsocynical]

quote]

When you've [Corbyn] attacked your own side so much

[minch]

May is meant to be a remainer.
In the referendum immigration was evidently a topic which encouraged people to vote leave.
May is in charge of the current immigration policy (at least as regard to non EU).
Is not her complete non-engagement in the referendum and her inability to counter the immigration question far more culpable for the outcome than some others who are being blamed?
Why has the press (etc.) not blamed her?

[ohsocynical]

If this referendum was a bad idea (as most seem to think), wasn't it then a serious misjudgement for Corbyn to have supported one?

Yes. I find it very difficult to trust the judgement of someone who wanted Brexit for a long time, even if they changed their mind at the last minute.

Gee thanks...You've just dismissed a huge chunk of the population.

[JonnyT1234]

Isn't it possible simply to not read stuff one knows is going to annoy one?

I do it all the time ...

I'm working on not writing it. Sometimes successfully. I think.

[tinyclanger2]

1 - The next prime minister will be a woman. Apologies for stating the obvious, but the new Conservative leader due to be announced on Friday 9 September will be only the second woman to serve as prime minister. The UK and Scottish governments will both have female leaders at the same time. And, if Hillary Clinton becomes US president, then three of the G7 leaders will be women - another first.

It's like Last of the Summer Wine meets In the Thick of It.

[howsillyofme1]

May is meant to be a remainer.
In the referendum immigration was evidently a topic which encouraged people to vote leave.
May is in charge of the current immigration policy (at least as regard to non EU).
Is not her complete non-engagement in the referendum and her inability to counter the immigration question far more culpable for the outcome than some others who are being blamed?
Why has the press (etc.) not blamed her?

I keep hearing she was mildly for Brexit. Has anyone actually pinned down what her views are?

She came out as Remain about same time as Javid. Seen as a coup for Cameron as she was previously the other way

Did nothing in the campaign though and I wouldn't be surprised if she voted Leave

She is not going to defy the referendum result

[howsillyofme1]

Isn't it possible simply to not read stuff one knows is going to annoy one?

I do it all the time ...

Yes. So do I.

It's not a case of just some posts vs other posts though. I think it's pretty likely that yesterday and today would have been dominated by discussions of Chilcot and the Tory leadership election. Instead, thanks to the intervention of one individual, we've spent the last two days talking for the most part about Corbyn's leadership and Labour's PLP problem. Which seems to happen whenever said individual pops up.

I can't be arsed. I'm going to leave it for a few days.

Don't do that. He will have won

[yahyah]

Farage has endorsed Leadsom via Twitter. Not surprising.

[SpinningHugo]

[Rant continues]

Also as I keep saying, the policy difference between left and right of Labour are really very small. What we're dealing with here is mainly personalities and power.

With the will, those in power in Labour could sit down and figure this out within hours, with a few concessions and agreement to disagree in some areas (mainly defence and foreign policy).

This is importantly wrong.

The trigger for the current crisis was the referendum. The bulk of the PLP are strong Remainers. Corbyn clearly is not. I believe Johnson on the efforts of Corbyn's office to undermine Remain.

As TI said yesterday, Corbyn's reaction on the Friday morning, that art 50 should be invoked immediately, was very revealing. Incredibly stupid on one view, revealing of his true attitude on another.

I too am a passionate Remainer. That is one of the reasons it is now incredibly important that Corbyn is removed,

I too am a passionate Remainer. But I happen to think Corbyn did an OK job when dealt a very tricky hand. Certainly, his performance doesn't merit this ridiculous factional behaviour. It's inexcusable and I for one will never forgive some of the ring leaders.

I accept what Johnson says

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/po ... my-corbyns" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

His behaviour on the morning after with regard to art 50 was also completely damning.

Which is what prompted this.

If the EU were not an issue, the PLP could have continued to live with him. Now it is.

[AnatolyKasparov]

May is meant to be a remainer.
In the referendum immigration was evidently a topic which encouraged people to vote leave.
May is in charge of the current immigration policy (at least as regard to non EU).
Is not her complete non-engagement in the referendum and her inability to counter the immigration question far more culpable for the outcome than some others who are being blamed?
Why has the press (etc.) not blamed her?

I keep hearing she was mildly for Brexit. Has anyone actually pinned down what her views are?

She was an unenthusiastic "remainer", not a million miles unlike you know who

Actually, something SH said earlier did have the ring of truth - I think there was a moment, a week or so ago, when Corbyn *was* genuinely vulnerable (even if much of the "bunker" talk from hacks was either exaggerated or, in some cases, outright made up) Had there been a thought out concerted move from Eagle - or somebody of similar politics - then, many in the party might have been willing to listen. Instead we had dithering and indecision, added to that the knowledge of people supposedly directing things behind the scenes - the utterly wretched godawful Chris Leslie, John "I bring amazing electoral success wherever I go, and by the way did I tell you that we should privatise the NHS?" McTernan, and last but not least the PRINCE OF DARKNESS himself. Yep, those are just the people you need if you want to beat Corbyn!

I quite like Angela Eagle (given she is a chess player, how could I not) and seeing her come out today with Comical Ali-esque stuff like "JC is getting weaker by the day" is genuinely tragic. Still no challenge or any sign of one despite this supposedly self evident truth. Obviously

[mbc1955]

At the risk of repeating myself, let's just take a collective vow to not respond to him, or anyone else whose Pavlovian response to everything is 'Overthrow Corbyn'. It's gotten boring, they have no other form of conversation and if we just let them flap on but not reply - because they will none of them listen to any kind of argument that is not already resonating in the great empty cavern of their ego - then we can talk about what's actually happening in the world.

[howsillyofme1]

This is importantly wrong.

The trigger for the current crisis was the referendum. The bulk of the PLP are strong Remainers. Corbyn clearly is not. I believe Johnson on the efforts of Corbyn's office to undermine Remain.

As TI said yesterday, Corbyn's reaction on the Friday morning, that art 50 should be invoked immediately, was very revealing. Incredibly stupid on one view, revealing of his true attitude on another.

I too am a passionate Remainer. That is one of the reasons it is now incredibly important that Corbyn is removed,

I too am a passionate Remainer. But I happen to think Corbyn did an OK job when dealt a very tricky hand. Certainly, his performance doesn't merit this ridiculous factional behaviour. It's inexcusable and I for one will never forgive some of the ring leaders.

I accept what Johnson says

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/po ... my-corbyns" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

His behaviour on the morning after with regard to art 50 was also completely damning.

Which is what prompted this.

If the EU were not an issue, the PLP could have continued to live with him. Now it is.

I propose you stop posting your ramblings and let Tubby make these arguments

He is better at it than you and has more credibility.

You just weaken his posts

[minch]

I find that Leadson reminds me of Christine Hamilton.... this is not a good place.

[howsillyofme1]

I find that Leadson reminds me of Christine Hamilton.... this is not a good place.

Yes, that.

I knew there was something

[mbc1955]

I find that Leadson reminds me of Christine Hamilton.... this is not a good place.

Arrggghhhh!

[yahyah]

And I like Tubby.

[Willow904]

If this referendum was a bad idea (as most seem to think), wasn't it then a serious misjudgement for Corbyn to have supported one?

Yes. I find it very difficult to trust the judgement of someone who wanted Brexit for a long time, even if they changed their mind at the last minute.

Gee thanks...You've just dismissed a huge chunk of the population.

I'm not trusting a huge chunk of the population to run the country, though. A good leader needs to be able to take unpopular decisions, like Ed did in refusing to offer a referendum at this point in time, while we are still struggling to recover from the crash.

Besides, as I've said over and over, I view Brexit as a fundamentally Tory affair, they've been trying to take us out of the EU for years, the "out" campaign was run by Tories and a majority of Tories voted "out". I'm perfectly comfortable opposing the will of a bunch of Tories and feel no need to respect their "red tape cutting" opinion.

[minch]

May is meant to be a remainer.
In the referendum immigration was evidently a topic which encouraged people to vote leave.
May is in charge of the current immigration policy (at least as regard to non EU).
Is not her complete non-engagement in the referendum and her inability to counter the immigration question far more culpable for the outcome than some others who are being blamed?
Why has the press (etc.) not blamed her?

I keep hearing she was mildly for Brexit. Has anyone actually pinned down what her views are?

She was an unenthusiastic "remainer", not a million miles unlike you know who

Actually, something SH said earlier did have the ring of truth - I think there was a moment, a week or so ago, when Corbyn *was* genuinely vulnerable (even if much of the "bunker" talk from hacks was either exaggerated or, in some cases, outright made up) Had there been a thought out concerted move from Eagle - or somebody of similar politics - then, many in the party might have been willing to listen. Instead we had dithering and indecision, added to that the knowledge of people supposedly directing things behind the scenes - the utterly wretched godawful Chris Leslie, John "I bring amazing electoral success wherever I go, and by the way did I tell you that we should privatise the NHS?" McTernan, and last but not least the PRINCE OF DARKNESS himself. Yep, those are just the people you need if you want to beat Corbyn!

I quite like Angela Eagle (given she is a chess player, how could I not) and seeing her come out today with Comical Ali-esque stuff like "JC is getting weaker by the day" is genuinely tragic. Still no challenge or any sign of one despite this supposedly self evident truth. Obviously

Where was May on the appearance chart, was she even below AJ?

[SpinningHugo]

May is meant to be a remainer.
In the referendum immigration was evidently a topic which encouraged people to vote leave.
May is in charge of the current immigration policy (at least as regard to non EU).
Is not her complete non-engagement in the referendum and her inability to counter the immigration question far more culpable for the outcome than some others who are being blamed?
Why has the press (etc.) not blamed her?

I keep hearing she was mildly for Brexit. Has anyone actually pinned down what her views are?

She was an unenthusiastic "remainer", not a million miles unlike you know who

Actually, something SH said earlier did have the ring of truth - I think there was a moment, a week or so ago, when Corbyn *was* genuinely vulnerable (even if much of the "bunker" talk from hacks was either exaggerated or, in some cases, outright made up) Had there been a thought out concerted move from Eagle - or somebody of similar politics - then, many in the party might have been willing to listen. Instead we had dithering and indecision, added to that the knowledge of people supposedly directing things behind the scenes - the utterly wretched godawful Chris Leslie, John "I bring amazing electoral success wherever I go, and by the way did I tell you that we should privatise the NHS?" McTernan, and last but not least the PRINCE OF DARKNESS himself. Yep, those are just the people you need if you want to beat Corbyn!

I quite like Angela Eagle (given she is a chess player, how could I not) and seeing her come out today with Comical Ali-esque stuff like "JC is getting weaker by the day" is genuinely tragic. Still no challenge or any sign of one despite this supposedly self evident truth. Obviously

Where does your knowledge that Chris Leslie, John McTernan and Mandleson were directing this come from? What evidence for that is there?

The bulk of the PLP, and of the 172, are not Blairites. Certainly the shadow cabinet members who resigned weren't. Is Lisa Nandy, say, just an unfortunate dupe, manipulated by John McTernan?

Doesn't seem very likely to me. i think you're stuck in the Brown v Blair battles of a decade ago. That isn't what is happening now.

[yahyah]

Peter Jukes says Leadsom's Vote Leave videos appear to being edited by her supporters.
He asks if anyone has the originals.

[howsillyofme1]

The Tory battle is, in my view, going to get vicious

Leadsom will go full throttle on Leave knowing that the grassroots are instinctively that way inclined

May will have to follow her to an extent.....in fact she may be even more Brexit than Leadsom due to her choosing Remain. I think that was tactical and she is actually far more Eurosceptic than Corbyn is

We may see some commitments on this subject - none of which will please Tubby I think

Leadsom also has Johnson with her and this could be a real asset when campaigning

Personally, I think we will be very close to Out by the time we have a new PM

Leadsom will commit to A50 immediately at some point (a desperate gamble). Will May follow her?

[minch]

The Tory battle is, in my view, going to get vicious

Leadsom will go full throttle on Leave knowing that the grassroots are instinctively that way inclined

May will have to follow her to an extent.....in fact she may be even more Brexit than Leadsom due to her choosing Remain. I think that was tactical and she is actually far more Eurosceptic than Corbyn is

We may see some commitments on this subject - none of which will please Tubby I think

Leadsom also has Johnson with her and this could be a real asset when campaigning

Personally, I think we will be very close to Out by the time we have a new PM

Leadsom will commit to A50 immediately at some point (a desperate gamble). Will May follow her?

If they both commit to A50 now then will Cameron be forced to invoke it?

[yahyah]

Radio 4 seem to be using John Pienaar a lot these days, thought he was Radio 5.
Just checked and found he was appointed BBC Deputy Political Editor in April.

Kuenssberg and Pienaar. James Harding. What hope is there for BBC political reporting.

[howsillyofme1]

The Tory battle is, in my view, going to get vicious

Leadsom will go full throttle on Leave knowing that the grassroots are instinctively that way inclined

May will have to follow her to an extent.....in fact she may be even more Brexit than Leadsom due to her choosing Remain. I think that was tactical and she is actually far more Eurosceptic than Corbyn is

We may see some commitments on this subject - none of which will please Tubby I think

Leadsom also has Johnson with her and this could be a real asset when campaigning

Personally, I think we will be very close to Out by the time we have a new PM

Leadsom will commit to A50 immediately at some point (a desperate gamble). Will May follow her?

If they both commit to A50 now then will Cameron be forced to invoke it?

My guess is he won't..why break his vow of cowardice?

[RogerOThornhill]

@SpinningHugo

Are you actually here to discuss any other issue apart from the Labour leadership?

I wouldn't mind so much if there was anything new to have come out today but there isn't.

[howsillyofme1]

@SpinningHugo

Are you actually here to discuss any other issue apart from the Labour leadership?

I wouldn't mind so much if there was anything new to have come out today but there isn't.

I thing it is best to ignore him Roger

Let us do a bit of Tory bashing instead

Given us some ammunition today and it is quite good fun

No matter what Labour do they could never match a Tory leadership contest for lies, treachery and downright weirdness