Sat 9 and Sun 10 July 2016

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sun 10 Jul, 2016 4:47 pm

Just watching some bits of Marr on BBC iplayer.
Marr's interview of UKIP donor Aaron Banks was very tame.

There was a question about the racist Leave poster, but apart from that he gave Banks a very easy ride.
If a Labour politician had been responsible for some of his type of tweets Marr would have banged on about it. Not a word to Banks though.
People like Marr treat the left as if they have a nasty disease, but a right wing Kipper gets treated with very soft kid gloves.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sun 10 Jul, 2016 4:48 pm

Leadsom's Tips ‏@LeadsomsTips 7h7 hours ago

As a mum who has negotiated vegetable consumption deals with 3 children, I see nothing complex about the situation in Syria.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sun 10 Jul, 2016 4:50 pm

TobyLatimer wrote:If the incumbent is not on the ballot, then the challenger has nothing or no-one to challenge so it then becomes a coronation of sorts ?

Unless Burnham, Unumma, Starmer etc are waiting in the wings for some clarity on the legality of Corbyn's position.

And if in the event someone from the right of the party wins, what is to stop someone from the left doing exactly the same immediately after the new leader is installed and starts the whole thing off again ?

I'm not a lawyer btw.

You're using common sense Toby. It's something those in the PLP seem to be lacking in.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sun 10 Jul, 2016 4:58 pm

They ought to use a test of reasonableness or natural justice.
It is not reasonable to view the rule as meaning that the incumbent, if they haven't stepped down or asked for a leadership election, has to seek nominations.

TR'sGhost · Post by **TR'sGhost** » Sun 10 Jul, 2016 5:00 pm

TobyLatimer wrote:And if in the event someone from the right of the party wins, what is to stop someone from the left doing exactly the same immediately after the new leader is installed and starts the whole thing off again ?

As you say, if the sitting leader is excluded by rule from the ballot then any MP who can get 20% of MPs to sign a nomination letter can unseat them.

Only it doesn't have to be someone from the left of the PLP. The coup plotters are united by two things - a desire to get shot of Corbyn and negate the membership's input on the one hand and ambition or fear for their careers if they are seen to back the losing side on the other.

If they succeed in overthrowing the membership, how long is it likely to be before they're at each others throats? We could be looking at a leadership election at least once a year for the forseeable future.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 10 Jul, 2016 5:02 pm

http://www.cityam.com/245134/northern-p ... uks-brexit" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;?
Government plans to build the Northern Powerhouse will be left on the brink of failure without boosted efforts to attract foreign investment, according to a new report.

or rather:

Leave voters give Osborne the very excuse he needs to get away with economic failure and further lack of investment outside London (and general austerity)

Post by **refitman** » Sun 10 Jul, 2016 5:03 pm

Well done Andy!

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 10 Jul, 2016 5:08 pm

"Fuck off out of the Party,the new order must prevail"
"Traitorous scum they are fucking off"
Still not all of prescribed view -"fuck off traitors "repeat as necessary

"Hang on,we're not all even in the Party ourselves"
It's o.k.we're Corbynites regardless,1,2,3

Save Corbyn,Man of Steel...

Curtain closes.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sun 10 Jul, 2016 5:08 pm

It is my feeling that the rules aren't clear because it was never imagined an incumbent would be so unpopular they wouldn't easily secure nominations to make the ballot. It is clear from comments here that Corbyn will be on the ballot and will win again and it is equally clear that his performance post-referendum has been poor and the future of the Labour party under him is worrying, with statements from Corbyn and McDonnell that suggest they share a vision of the UK outside the single market.. For me, no amount of popularity among members makes that an appealing vision. So I'm sorry, but I have a lot of sympathy with the quandary many Labour MPs now find themselves in and I've been a little taken aback by the hostility expressed by some on this forum towards some of those MPs who had previously been praised here. And why? Because they lost confidence in Corbyn over the EU referendum? Well I have lost confidence in him too, based on his own words and statements. Am I a plotter also?

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sun 10 Jul, 2016 5:09 pm

HindleA wrote:"Fuck off out of the Party,the new order must prevail"
"Traitorous scum they are fucking off"
Still not all of prescribed view -"fuck off traitors "repeat as necessary

"Hang on,we're not all even in the Party ourselves"
It's o.k.we're Corbynites regardless,1,2,3

Save Corbyn,Man of Steel...

Curtain closes.

?

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sun 10 Jul, 2016 5:09 pm

HindleA wrote:"Fuck off out of the Party,the new order must prevail"
"Traitorous scum they are fucking off"
Still not all of prescribed view -"fuck off traitors "repeat as necessary

"Hang on,we're not all even in the Party ourselves"
It's o.k.we're Corbynites regardless,1,2,3

Save Corbyn,Man of Steel...

Curtain closes.

There's another version of that play.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sun 10 Jul, 2016 5:12 pm

David Schneider ‏@davidschneider 2h2 hours ago

“Andy Murray has the edge because he’s a mother” - Leadsom.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sun 10 Jul, 2016 5:12 pm

I didn't live through an experience of Militant and all that, can imagine the hurt runs deep on both sides.
But people who think Corbyn is being treated shabbily are not all raging SWP sweary types or thugs.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sun 10 Jul, 2016 5:18 pm

Willow904 wrote:It is my feeling that the rules aren't clear because it was never imagined an incumbent would be so unpopular they wouldn't easily secure nominations to make the ballot. It is clear from comments here that Corbyn will be on the ballot and will win again and it is equally clear that his performance post-referendum has been poor and the future of the Labour party under him is worrying, with statements from Corbyn and McDonnell that suggest they share a vision of the UK outside the single market.. For me, no amount of popularity among members makes that an appealing vision. So I'm sorry, but I have a lot of sympathy with the quandary many Labour MPs now find themselves in and I've been a little taken aback by the hostility expressed by some on this forum towards some of those MPs who had previously been praised here. And why? Because they lost confidence in Corbyn over the EU referendum? Well I have lost confidence in him too, based on his own words and statements. Am I a plotter also?

No - you are allowed to be against him and nobody has ever denied that

Of course, not all the PLP are plotters either....someone used the analogy of a snowball yesterday being pushed from the top of a slope and catching people along with it

Who was pushing the snowball?

It seems that the previous predictions of how and when this would happen have proved pretty accurate so it will take a lot of convincing to convince me that it was actually based on any particular event

All we ask, and not all of us are that keen on supporting Corbyn, is that proper process is followed

Fairness would suggest he is on the ballot. This may well engender a split. If he is off the ballot then this would be unfair and would also probably lead to a split

I would rather it was done fairly

All political parties are going to have to adapt to the new reality that Brexit will lead to - probably less money and increased tension

A socialist party is need in my view to balance the right wing rhetoric

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sun 10 Jul, 2016 5:18 pm

it was never imagined an incumbent would be so unpopular

Unpopular with whom? The electorate or the PLP?

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sun 10 Jul, 2016 5:18 pm

Does anyone else find themselves running through the various scenarios ?
If this happens I'll do that, or if that happens I'll do this, trying to second guess how to respond.

I want Corbyn on the ballot, even if I don't vote for him because there is a stronger candidate.
If he isn't there, the resignation letter might get typed. Why vote in a process that is transparently wrong ? You can't run a party on twisted stuff like that.

As Rebecca says, the likes of Eagle and Watson will soon come begging for donations from the people they want to disenfranchise.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sun 10 Jul, 2016 5:28 pm

I've never praised any politician much bar Ed. Not keen on politicians as a breed.
Corbyn's okay. Is more the Labour I grew up with. I'm lucky. No disabilities and managing. Thousands aren't. I support Corbyn for them.
Don't like women MPs much. Think Angela Eagle's an idiot for allowing the male plotters to hide behind her skirts while they pull the strings and I'd never vote for an idiot.
Don't have time for MPs who've let themselves be swayed against their better wishes.
Don't have time for anyone who can't accept and abide by the rules.
Don't have time for hypocrites.

So I guess that makes me a Corbynite.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sun 10 Jul, 2016 5:35 pm

Eagle's awful whiny interview with Peston. Does she come across as a leader ?
My husband's just called out from the other room that her wittering is driving him mad as I'm watching it. He's not a Trot.

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SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sun 10 Jul, 2016 5:44 pm

ohsocynical wrote:it was never imagined an incumbent would be so unpopular

Unpopular with whom? The electorate or the PLP?

The PLP and the electorAte.

He is of course now very popular with the selectorate who make up the membership, who has and is changing rapidly. There were very many politically committed people to the left of where Labour once was who are joining. There are hundreds of thousands of such people. Pprobably into the millions. I was one when I wad 18. Just not enough to win many seats in a fptp Parliamentary system

The purpose of the PLP threshold is to ensure a leader with a parliamentary base. Corbyn doesn't have that. Willing MPs gave it a go, but rightly concluded he is pitifully inadequate as a leader. The PLP is not made up of Blairites. Numerically there are hardly any of them.

At various points the rules clearly contemplate that the competition is between nominations.need (see my blog where I look at the various rules, not just the one cited here.) In cases where the rules are ambiguous a purpose approach should be adopted.

The current situation was never contemplated by the drafters. What purpose then was the nominee threshold meant to serve?

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sun 10 Jul, 2016 5:47 pm

ohsocynical wrote:it was never imagined an incumbent would be so unpopular

Unpopular with whom? The electorate or the PLP?

With the PLP. Have there been this many reservations from a shadow cabinet before? I admit my memory doesn't go back far.

mbc1955 · Post by **mbc1955** » Sun 10 Jul, 2016 5:54 pm

My position is vastly different

I am not and ever have been a Labour party member. Indeed, before last year, I had only ever voted Labour in the 1983 - 1997 General Elections, as the most direct and practical method getting the bloody Tories out. Otherwise, since reaching 18, I had been either Liberal or Liberal Democrat.

I remember the rejoicing when Blair won in 1997, the exhilaration, the sense that things were now going to change for the better, because the dead hand of a party exhausted on ideas was being removed at last. A certain degree of disappointment set in early enough that I had a letter published in the Guardian on the first anniversary of the Election, asking if it was too early to suggest that the best thing Blair would do for us would be to give us the night of 1 May 1997?

By 2010, though under no circumstances did I want to see the Tories in power, I recognised in Labour the same conditions I had seen in the Tories in 1997: a party that had run out of ideas, that was running for power because it thought it should be in power, but without any real idea what to do with it. Such Governments have to go, whatever their stripe. I still believe that, as a principle, but in practice it was a disaster.

I voted Labour last year out of positive conviction. I was glad to see Corbyn emerge as Leader because he was the only candidate offering a change from Tory-lite. He still represents that, so to my mind he is the Leader I want to see. But he is not necessarily a 'Leader' of the kind we could desperately do with.

What's happened since the referendum has been disgusting, to the extent where I want out of this country, my home for nearly 61 years. The fact that the PLP chose this moment, when the Tories were at their most vulnerable to attack for their manifest failings, to choose to eat their own entrails leaves me feeling unable to vote Labour next time, whenever next time is. Assuming that they are pursuing policies with which I agree, why should I vote such incompetent, back-stabbing, two-faced, self-centred MPs?

Nearly 61, with the feeling that almost every political party has deserted me (we don't even have a Green candidate in my constituency, which is at least solid Labour and solid Remain).

Where does politics UK go from here? I have no idea save that I expect every direction it can take from here to be the wrong one.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sun 10 Jul, 2016 5:57 pm

Labour Jews to Chuka Umunna – Stop using antisemitism smears against Corbyn

http://freespeechonisrael.org.uk/labour ... rs-corbyn/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There is something unforgivingly distasteful about what the PLP are trying to do. How can they be fit for office?

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sun 10 Jul, 2016 5:57 pm

Willow904 wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:it was never imagined an incumbent would be so unpopular

Unpopular with whom? The electorate or the PLP?
With the PLP. Have there been this many reservations from a shadow cabinet before? I admit my memory doesn't go back far.

I doubt it very much

I think Robert brings up a good point that the PLP do not seem to be able to cope with the electoral system in the Labour Party. Supported Miliband Major and Burnham/Cooper in the last two leadership elections

Miliband Minor was treated pretty badly by the PLP and this has continued with even more viciousness under Corbyn

They already have the sole power to select the candidates in the case of a vacancy

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sun 10 Jul, 2016 6:02 pm

RobertSnozers wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:it was never imagined an incumbent would be so unpopular

Unpopular with whom? The electorate or the PLP?
Oh, and just to deal with that point. I've been banging on about this but the arguments seem to be circular at the moment, so here goes again.

This is not just a case of the leader being unpopular with the people he has to work with in parliament. If this were the case and all other things equal, it would be right that the leader stepped down or was replaced. The real problem is that the PLP is ideologically out of step with the party as a whole (members and affiliated members). This is not just because of the new membership (although in a way so what if it is), but was also the case when Ed was elected despite the PLP voting overwhelmingly for David. This is a big problem. We can go into the reasons for that or not, but I believe that in cases where the PLP and the wider membership have such difference in their vision and outlook, the former should defer to the latter. If the divergence becomes too great and unmanageable, steps should surely be taken to bring the PLP closer to the membership.

Yes. Sorry if I keep repeating myself. Because on an election day, who votes MPs and the party in? Not the PLP.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sun 10 Jul, 2016 6:07 pm

It was depressing to hear Aaron Banks talking of a new party, seeking to take voters from the Tories and Labour.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Sun 10 Jul, 2016 6:09 pm

The past 9 months:

With us crew manning the sails and helping the captain to steer the ship on its new course, the officer class have been below deck punching holes through the hull, while all the time crying out, "that useless, inept captain! He's sinking the ship."

And now the officer class want us crew to throw the captain overboard and row them back in the direction we've just come from, despite most of us quite liking the look of where we were going and not much enjoying where we were before.

How is this ever going to end well for the officer class? How is this ever going to end well for any of us?

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 10 Jul, 2016 6:10 pm

Very belated, I know but - good morfternoon. Sorry about the lapse in protocol.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sun 10 Jul, 2016 6:12 pm

It didn't take long. Found this while checking Ceredigion Labour on Twitter.
He's a Cardiff Labour councillor.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 10 Jul, 2016 6:15 pm

I honestly feel like I'm living in some kind of really dark farce.
I assume it's a coping strategy.

NB: I am not a psychologist

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sun 10 Jul, 2016 6:15 pm

Rebecca Riots' branch passed a motion supporting Corbyn.

https://twitter.com/Pembslabour" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If you are reading RR, hope you and Mr Riots, and the dogs and cats are well.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sun 10 Jul, 2016 6:16 pm

It says 170 new members have joined Pembs & Preseli since the EU referendum.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sun 10 Jul, 2016 6:17 pm

yahyah wrote:Rebecca Riots' branch passed a motion supporting Corbyn.

https://twitter.com/Pembslabour" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If you are reading RR, hope you and Mr Riots, and the dogs and cats are well.

RR - please come back.........I think most of the referendum heat has gone now....

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sun 10 Jul, 2016 6:18 pm

I feel guilty. All my anti-Brexit emotion didn't help.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sun 10 Jul, 2016 6:19 pm

yahyah wrote:I feel guilty. All my anti-Brexit emotion didn't help.

There was a lot of emotion about - dissipating now

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sun 10 Jul, 2016 6:19 pm

I miss hearing about Mr RR's cooking endeavours.

mbc1955 · Post by **mbc1955** » Sun 10 Jul, 2016 6:20 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:I honestly feel like I'm living in some kind of really dark farce.
I assume it's a coping strategy.

NB: I am not a psychologist

It's not a coping strategy: you are living in a really dark farce. Unfortunately, it's not being written by Feydeau, and thus there is absolutely no prospect of it coming out in the tradition of farce, with the status quo restored. And there are far too few attractive young women running around in French knickers.

I really do not see this coming out well for anyone.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 10 Jul, 2016 6:21 pm

I know it's easier said than done, but I think we need to focus on PR. What realistic options are there given the turmoil, shite, Leadsom etc?

(PS when I say focus I don't mean to the exclusion of all else, but I believe there is a strange momentum (small m) just now that we must somehow take advantage of).

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sun 10 Jul, 2016 6:21 pm

RobertSnozers wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:it was never imagined an incumbent would be so unpopular

Unpopular with whom? The electorate or the PLP?
Oh, and just to deal with that point. I've been banging on about this but the arguments seem to be circular at the moment, so here goes again.

This is not just a case of the leader being unpopular with the people he has to work with in parliament. If this were the case and all other things equal, it would be right that the leader stepped down or was replaced. The real problem is that the PLP is ideologically out of step with the party as a whole (members and affiliated members). This is not just because of the new membership (although in a way so what if it is), but was also the case when Ed was elected despite the PLP voting overwhelmingly for David. This is a big problem. We can go into the reasons for that or not, but I believe that in cases where the PLP and the wider membership have such difference in their vision and outlook, the former should defer to the latter. If the divergence becomes too great and unmanageable, steps should surely be taken to bring the PLP closer to the membership.

Ed got 63 nominations to David's 81. He was undermined equally from the left and right. Diane Abbott was all over the tv criticising his mansion tax policy right before the general election. Even when you subtract the 5 points Anatoly suggests the change in polling methodology has cost Labour, he was still more popular than Corbyn yet it wasn't enough. I get people's desire to respect the rules, but the rules are currently lumbering Labour with a poor leader and poor policy direction post-EU. I'm far less confident than you that Corbyn will be open to a consensus response, it's been very unilateral so far and the point about the single market is that it isn't a thing you either feel like or not, it's the difference between a certain amount of economic security and prosperity and a route which means economic uncertainty and far less prosperity. The WTO, anti-immigration route will almost certainly hurt the poorest and most vulnerable. Is Labour about helping and protecting the poorest and most vulnerable or is it about doing what the membership want, no matter what that might be? It seems to me that the antidote to the PLP having too much power, isn't to swing completely in the other direction and place too much power in the hands of the membership. Without an accommodation between the two, there is no future for the party and from my perspective both sides are equally at fault in their lack of flexibility.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sun 10 Jul, 2016 6:22 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:I know it's easier said than done, but I think we need to focus on PR. What realistic options are there given the turmoil, shite, Leadsom etc?

It is inevitable.....how soon though is a different matter

If I had to bet...next election last under current FPTP system

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sun 10 Jul, 2016 6:23 pm

Leadsom's Tips ‏@LeadsomsTips 8h8 hours ago

Any mum will tell you teenagers can be uncooperative. Exert your authority by taking away something they like, such as their EU membership.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sun 10 Jul, 2016 6:24 pm

With the country swallowing the lies of people like Farage & Boris Johnson, Aaron Banks talking about a new right wing party, what might the outcome of PR actually be ?

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 10 Jul, 2016 6:27 pm

yahyah wrote:With the country swallowing the lies of people like Farage & Boris Johnson, Aaron Banks talking about a new right wing party, what might the outcome of PR actually be ?

I think (but I am an idiot) that a Corbyn-type Labour party could win back some UKIP; while the new PLP/ABL We Love Blair party could pick up a few more and a bunch of Tories. Then we can work with Various Others - all lesser of various evils than a future Tory/UKIP pact.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sun 10 Jul, 2016 6:30 pm

yahyah wrote:With the country swallowing the lies of people like Farage & Boris Johnson, Aaron Banks talking about a new right wing party, what might the outcome of PR actually be ?

I think ignoring it will only build up the pressure......and then at some point it will burst

If we start seeing schisms, splits and new parties it is the only way to go I guess

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sun 10 Jul, 2016 6:33 pm

(((Grumps))) @TheGrumpyBitch
No, please tell me @angelaeagle did not say this? Anything up to a million dead Iraqis & BLAIR has been thru mill?

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JustMom · Post by **JustMom** » Sun 10 Jul, 2016 6:34 pm

I'm so glad I watched the last part of the tennis finals,cameron got well and truly booed.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sun 10 Jul, 2016 6:36 pm

Labour Insider
‏@Labour_Insider
"Angela has challenged for the leadership without the consent of the PLP"
a rebel MP tells us.
Seems PLP not 100% behind her.

I knew it! I f*****g knew they would do that!

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sun 10 Jul, 2016 6:38 pm

Willow904 wrote:. Even when you subtract the 5 points Anatoly suggests the change in polling methodology has cost Labour,

AK is one of life's incorrigible optimists. If it were a shift remotely that big it would have been as they shifted from one methodology to the other. The raw number don't support that.

pala · Post by **pala** » Sun 10 Jul, 2016 6:42 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:...rightly concluded he is pitifully inadequate as a leader

What are the qualities of a leader? Which of these does he lack?

He was convincing on Marr today.

Be honest: you don't like the policy direction do you?

If he is now "unelectable" you should look to yourself and all the others like you. You have helped bring this about.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sun 10 Jul, 2016 6:43 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
Labour Insider
‏@Labour_Insider
"Angela has challenged for the leadership without the consent of the PLP"
a rebel MP tells us.
Seems PLP not 100% behind her.
I knew it! I f*****g knew they would do that!

Letting a few hints drop so if it goes disastrously wrong, those brave rebel MPs come out of it looking, if not squeaky clean, relatively unscathed so they can pick up where they left off.

And look for the names that have slid out of sight after the first furore. Kinnock minor, Benn, Hunt.

Two faced b*$^//^& s

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 10 Jul, 2016 6:46 pm

Am dreaming of a world where we don't normally have Tories in power.
The very notion of Leadsom representing the country has pushed me over some kind of edge. After 2059 years of it, we may have to move beyond writing a letter.