Tuesday 12th July 2016

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 3:29 pm

With respect, TE, you have no more idea of who threw that brick than I do. As you say, there is no evidence.

Rebecca's figures show that there are just over 12 incidents of ASB daily in Wallasey. This could be just one of those.

I wrote earlier about what happened to Ed, the negative briefings, the coup attempts. This is much worse.

I agree with what Ohso wrote above. Support for a more left-wing party is not just coming from ex-Militant types - it's much bigger than that.
Militant was grim - but it is wrong to say that Momentum is a sort of son of Militant. Many of them weren't born when all that went on.

As Corbyn is one of many politicians who has received death threats, it seems to me there is wrong on both sides. As is usually the case.

mbc1955 · Post by **mbc1955** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 3:29 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
Evolve Politics ‏@evolvepolitics 3h3 hours ago

Angela Eagle already considering ‘pulling out’ of leadership race if Corbyn is on the ballot

http://evolvepolitics.com/angela-eagle- ... yn-ballot/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
This is just ridiculous. What are the PLP doing for goodness sake.

Oh, FFS!

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 3:30 pm

I found a song I'd forgotten about,
It was dated 02/03/1997
So I think it must have been about the time that Murdoch started
endorsing Blair & was questioning what the cost was.
It seems relevant now.
(It's not very cheerful, so never got an outing,
also not sure why it says England rather than Britain, but I'm sure I had some reason)

The Lie of the Land

The last dream of England
hatched behind closed doors
beyond the voice of reason
beyond the rule of law
they disguise their motives, hide their plans
acting slowly, take the lie of the land
'cos it could never happen here

The lost tribe of England
homeless and ignored
echoes of society
hidden behind doors
an unpleasant side effect, to a well meant scheme
or just the ends, justifying the means?
It could never happen here

refrain/
We hang by a thread,
between justice and betrayal
swung by the press
the official line seems to fail
It could never happen here

The last rights for England
targetted in schemes
by secret groups who think they're wise
who claim a clearer dream
and take their time, to plot their course
and reap strange fruit, with no remorse
it could never happen here

The lost words of England
never to be heard
the hangman takes his orders
hidden from the world
the lights go out and no-one sees
rumours leak out, no-one believes
It could never happen here.

The lost vote in England
scattered and dismayed
a last plea for sanity
in these crazy days
now the tide has changed, I don't see how
the press have turned, why leave it till now?
It could never happen here

The last lie in England
ever to be told
called to account
the truth starts to unfold
nothing's forgotten, or not recalled
no details missing, however small
It could never happen here.

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 3:31 pm

: ScreenShot01477.jpg (56.03 KiB) Viewed 8551 times

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 3:31 pm

joncraigSKY ‏@joncraig 1h1 hour ago

Ruth Davidson reveals David Cameron told her today "he's got his office booked in Portcullis House & he will still be on the back benches".

Rebecca · Post by **Rebecca** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 3:35 pm

ephemerid wrote:With respect, TE, you have no more idea of who threw that brick than I do. As you say, there is no evidence.

Rebecca's figures show that there are just over 12 incidents of ASB daily in Wallasey. This could be just one of those.

I wrote earlier about what happened to Ed, the negative briefings, the coup attempts. This is much worse.

I agree with what Ohso wrote above. Support for a more left-wing party is not just coming from ex-Militant types - it's much bigger than that.
Militant was grim - but it is wrong to say that Momentum is a sort of son of Militant. Many of them weren't born when all that went on.

As Corbyn is one of many politicians who has received death threats, it seems to me there is wrong on both sides. As is usually the case.

Strong,Northern,Working Class Woman,aka Angela Eagle,won't be fussed about a broken office window anyway.
It's a pain of course,but walk through any slightly rough town and you will see it all the bloody time.

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 3:35 pm

And where do we go from here?
Which is a way that's clear?

Rock on.

[youtube]r1rIdSWWiQU[/youtube]

Think I might just flounce off and give Farron a chance. Up the LibDems !

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 3:52 pm

Images of the disgusting intimidation of members of the NEC at Labour HQ beginning to filter through... I mean, look at them, just like rabid animals:

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 3:56 pm

Am I right to think that
If Corbyn had stood down, then contenders would need 15% of pop nominations.
If he's still leader, they need 20%
So if he isn't automatically on ballot paper,
shouldn't it revert to 15% ?
(Not that it would make much difference, just wondering)

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 3:57 pm

The photo-sound-media unit artillery barrage isn't freedom

JustMom · Post by **JustMom** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 4:02 pm

It's a secret ballot apparently.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 4:03 pm

T

his from Monday 2 November 2015

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 17731.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The MP has previously described the rise of Mr Corbyn as a marker of the start of “the era of emoji politics, where identity and emotion suffocate debate and rationality”.
The Blairite MP called for 'dissent' in the wake of Jeremy Corbyn becoming leader

He was one of 20 MPs to defy the Labour leadership and refuse to vote against George Osborne's austerity fiscal charter. He also backed interim leader Harriet Harman on the Government's welfare cuts.

Did the PLP honestly think all these articles setting out quite clearly what they think and what they are planning to do weren't going to come back and bite them on the arse?

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 4:08 pm

Momentum
‏@PeoplesMomentum
.
@benpbradshaw your comments on BBC not just factually incorrect but a divisive & vile smear. We will be seeking legal advice.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 4:10 pm

ohsocynical wrote:Momentum
‏@PeoplesMomentum
.
@benpbradshaw your comments on BBC not just factually incorrect but a divisive & vile smear. We will be seeking legal advice.

CarolineJMolloy
‏@carolinejmolloy CarolineJMolloy Retweeted CarolineJMolloy
Have you seen this @tom_watson? It was after this that u called activists 'rabble', turns out BBC admit misreportingCarolineJMolloy added,

CarolineJMolloy
‏@carolinejmolloy
BBC upholds complaint they misreported E17 Syria vigil on basis of 1 bogus FB post http://www.bbc.co.uk/complaints/comp-re ... ay03122015" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; … pls share widely

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 4:23 pm

http://www.parliament.uk/business/commi ... nse-16-17/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Benefit delivery: Committee publishes Government response

Frank Field MP, Chair of the Committee said:

"We note that the DWP took six months to respond to this report, the central point of which was about delivering the correct benefits on time, and the hardship that is caused by delays.This response is very timely in one sense though, in that the NAO has just reported that total underpayments have increased to their highest level to date.

The Department considers that setting a target for reducing underpayments is unnecessary, despite the Committee and the Public Accounts Committee's recommendations on this.

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/p ... /52202.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

JustMom · Post by **JustMom** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 4:27 pm

Jeremy refuses to leave the room while they discuss the vote.

JustMom · Post by **JustMom** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 4:28 pm

He's entitled to a vote so wants to stay.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 4:30 pm

There is a Twitter account called @LabourCoupAbuse.

It is a catalogue of appalling messages - FROM BOTH SIDES - and some of them come from well-known journalists, politicians including peers, and various writers, bloggers, activists, local government officers, and members of the public.

Sarah Ditum (Guardian and New Statesman) describes Corbyn as a cancer; Lord Moonie has told a member of the public to "go fuck yourself"; Diane Abbott described as a fat black leftard.
Tom Watson described as a fat traitor with shifty eyes; Angela Eagle attacked for her sexual identity; and some of the worst insults of all have been levelled at Harry Leslie Smith.

There are also plenty of accusations of this or that, again on both sides, from respectable journalists - who do not retract when the object of their allegation denies whatever it is they're being accused of.

This is just disgusting. If this is how people on both sides choose to behave, I'm glad I'm not a member any more.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 4:34 pm

JustMom wrote:He's entitled to a vote so wants to stay.

Good for him. He's representing an awful lot of people.

JustMom · Post by **JustMom** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 4:35 pm

Maybe they'll offer a proxy.

frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 4:37 pm

HindleA wrote:http://www.parliament.uk/business/commi ... nse-16-17/

Benefit delivery: Committee publishes Government response

Frank Field MP, Chair of the Committee said:

"We note that the DWP took six months to respond to this report, the central point of which was about delivering the correct benefits on time, and the hardship that is caused by delays.This response is very timely in one sense though, in that the NAO has just reported that total underpayments have increased to their highest level to date.

The Department considers that setting a target for reducing underpayments is unnecessary, despite the Committee and the Public Accounts Committee's recommendations on this.

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/p ... /52202.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Public service at its best !

I wasn't particularly concentrating, until something on French radio struck me only the other day .

Some sort of regional Fraud Squad at our DWP had identified €250mn of overpayments of some sort, fraud or error, but also €60mn of underpayments, that had been corrected .

I wonder if the UK equivalent bods also find, and rectify, underpayments ?

Serious question , because there must be some figures available .

JustMom · Post by **JustMom** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 4:37 pm

He's left the room,it's getting personal apparently.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 4:38 pm

ephemerid wrote:There is a Twitter account called @LabourCoupAbuse.

It is a catalogue of appalling messages - FROM BOTH SIDES - and some of them come from well-known journalists, politicians including peers, and various writers, bloggers, activists, local government officers, and members of the public.

Sarah Ditum (Guardian and New Statesman) describes Corbyn as a cancer; Lord Moonie has told a member of the public to "go fuck yourself"; Diane Abbott described as a fat black leftard.
Tom Watson described as a fat traitor with shifty eyes; Angela Eagle attacked for her sexual identity; and some of the worst insults of all have been levelled at Harry Leslie Smith.

There are also plenty of accusations of this or that, again on both sides, from respectable journalists - who do not retract when the object of their allegation denies whatever it is they're being accused of.

This is just disgusting. If this is how people on both sides choose to behave, I'm glad I'm not a member any more.

There has been a concerted attack on poor old Harry Leslie Smith. Not just one or two off the cuff insults.

He has been an utter gent the whole time and hasn't once hit back although he'd have been perfectly entitled to.

mbc1955 · Post by **mbc1955** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 4:38 pm

Don't turn your back on people carrying knives.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 4:42 pm

1. The NEC has voted for a secret ballot, contrary to Corbyn's wishes.

2. that means there is an anti-Corbyn majority

3. that means they'll interpret the rules against him

I think.

frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 4:45 pm

Sounds like it .

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 4:46 pm

Éoin ‏@LabourEoin 2h2 hours ago

#Breaking Electoral Commission slap down Blairite MP's attack on Momentum's Funding as "absent of credible evidence"

: CnKvrXzWgAA5wvL.jpg (163.61 KiB) Viewed 8341 times

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 4:47 pm

4. Which probably means a legal challenge that the NEC and Labour Party will definitely lose.

D'oh.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 4:47 pm

There is going to be hell to pay......

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 4:48 pm

JonnyT1234 wrote:4. Which probably means a legal challenge that the NEC and Labour Party will definitely lose.

D'oh.

no. they won't. Even if their interpretation is wrong

https://spinninghugo.wordpress.com/2016 ... -rulebook/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 4:51 pm

Mary Turner of GMB is absent from the NEC because of 'illness'.

The oldest trick in the book.

Watson has fixed it.

That is what Watson was elected to do.

CORRECTION

She is genuinely ill and in hospital.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 4:53 pm

He may have fixed it, but at what cost? The end of the Labour party as we have known it, quite possibly.

I hope he feels it was worth it in the years and decades to come.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 4:59 pm

Red Labour ‏@Redlabour2016 21h21 hours ago

NEC meeting called with <24hrs notice to decide Corbyn's fate on the ballot. Arranged to block pro-JC officers unable to attend. PLEASE RT.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 5:00 pm

Next - Tom Watson takes over as interim leader, Eagle throws in the towel, and the PLP wins.

There is so much wrong with all of this that I am now very worried that there will be serious trouble.

I hope Corbyn's supporters don't take to the streets. All that will do is give the PLP the ammunition they weren't able to find before.

I also hope that those who think that getting rid of Corbyn by any means was worth it as they watch their party implode.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 5:02 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:He may have fixed it, but at what cost? The end of the Labour party as we have known it, quite possibly.

I hope he feels it was worth it in the years and decades to come.

Difficult, indeed invidious, choice.

Try and think like me and Watson.

If you think, as Watson and I do, that Labour is utterly doomed if Corbyn carries on as leader what do you do?

You have to be pretty damn committed to ensuring members get their way to allow Corbyn to go forward without requiring he has support of 1/5th of MPs and MEPs.

I do understand that others don't accept the premise that Watson and I share.

[Of course we don't know the result yet.]

mbc1955 · Post by **mbc1955** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 5:05 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:He may have fixed it, but at what cost? The end of the Labour party as we have known it, quite possibly.

I hope he feels it was worth it in the years and decades to come.
Difficult, indeed invidious, choice.

Try and think like me and Watson.

If you think, as Watson and I do, that Labour is utterly doomed if Corbyn carries on as leader what do you do?

You have to be pretty damn committed to ensuring members get their way to allow Corbyn to go forward without requiring he has support of 1/5th of MPs and MEPs.

I do understand that others don't accept the premise that Watson and I share.

[Of course we don't know the result yet.]

I would rip my brain out through my ears if I ever thought like you, you slimy little toad, applauding the kind of third world political fix that this country used to condemn without even thinking. You pollute this forum.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 5:10 pm

You do realise, Hugo, that the reason why so many people voted for Corbyn was that it was because they believed the Labour Party was doomed if they didn't?

Have you ever, ever, ever once thought like this in that weird little 'I am always right, you are always wrong' world of yours? Ever?

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 5:14 pm

ephemerid wrote:Next - Tom Watson takes over as interim leader, Eagle throws in the towel, and the PLP wins.

There is so much wrong with all of this that I am now very worried that there will be serious trouble.

I hope Corbyn's supporters don't take to the streets. All that will do is give the PLP the ammunition they weren't able to find before.

I also hope that those who think that getting rid of Corbyn by any means was worth it as they watch their party implode.

I hope so too, but I think hope has been firmly tramped down by the PLP.
Do these stupid, stupid MPs think they're going to carry on business as usual and stand at the next GE as if nothing has happened?

I'm going to answer myself. Do you know I think they will.

And I think they are going to get a nasty shock.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 5:16 pm

I completely reject your premise SH. Much if not most of the PLP is expendable, they have shown themselves to be both mediocre and untrustworthy.

However, the Labour party can only now meaningfully exist IMO as a mass membership bottom-up organisation.

If it tries to become a "zombie" party like the Tories it will simply die - they manage it through big business backing and often fervent and unscrupulous media cheerleading. Neither of those groups have any interest now in supporting some ersatz mid-90s Blairite throwback with added racism (which is what all too many MPs seem to want)

One of the problems is that too many of his opponents have obsessively personalised it about Corbyn - as I have said all along, he was never going to still be there in 2020 anyway. Its about what he represents and that is not going away - and if it is driven out of a PASOKified Labour, it will find expression elsewhere.

What form will that take? Well, I at least hope it will be democratic - but given recent events I can no longer be sure

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 5:20 pm

mbc1955 wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:He may have fixed it, but at what cost? The end of the Labour party as we have known it, quite possibly.

I hope he feels it was worth it in the years and decades to come.
Difficult, indeed invidious, choice.

Try and think like me and Watson.

If you think, as Watson and I do, that Labour is utterly doomed if Corbyn carries on as leader what do you do?

You have to be pretty damn committed to ensuring members get their way to allow Corbyn to go forward without requiring he has support of 1/5th of MPs and MEPs.

I do understand that others don't accept the premise that Watson and I share.

[Of course we don't know the result yet.]
I would rip my brain out through my ears if I ever thought like you, you slimy little toad, applauding the kind of third world political fix that this country used to condemn without even thinking. You pollute this forum.

I hope Hugo will put his money where his mouth is. He'll need more than one comfortable pair of shoes to deliver leaflets and knock on doors to make up for the lack of willing supporters these mealy mouthed MPs will have driven away.

Lets see them survive when the money dries up, and they're out there wearing their feet out in order to get elected.

And on the subject of voting for them, who says half a million angry members will?

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 5:22 pm

They think they don't need members (save for a few unthinking drones to deliver a few leaflets, maybe)

Its about getting money from rich donors and favourable media coverage. As I just said, they are almost certainly deluded about both.

mbc1955 · Post by **mbc1955** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 5:25 pm

There have been many times, down the years, that I have been ashamed of my country.

If this goes as we suspect, this will be a stink in the nostrils of the world like never before, and this country will have not the vestige of moral authority to criticise another again.

I want to leave.

JustMom · Post by **JustMom** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 5:27 pm

I won't be voting for anyone after this,first time in my life.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 5:28 pm

JustMom wrote:I won't be voting for anyone after this,first time in my life.

You could vote Green perhaps?

JustMom · Post by **JustMom** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 5:30 pm

I have considered this to be honest,I couldn't in a month of sundays ever vote for the liberals.

frightful_oik · Post by **frightful_oik** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 5:31 pm

I wonder who'll pay for those nice suits when the unions withdraw their funding.

thatchersorphan · Post by **thatchersorphan** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 5:32 pm

These 33 people on Labour's NEC are deciding the future of the party - and Jeremy Corbyn http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/33 ... ar_twitter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Re Harry Leslie Smith he's been getting tons of abuse including from Labour members at least since he switched from backing Burnham to Corbyn in the last leadership campaign, as well as them regularly insisting that someone else (ie not Harry) runs his twitter (presumably to justify sending abuse to a man in his 90's)

JustMom · Post by **JustMom** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 5:36 pm

Jeremy Corby said it was a total fabrication he refused to leave the meeting,he left right away.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 5:36 pm

It might be worth pointing out again that yesterday our incoming PM espoused several positions placing her to the left of a hefty chunk of Labour MPs.

What is the point of a Labour party where such people hold the whip hand even existing?

Make no mistake though, that is what the "dark forces" behind this coup want. Selfish, venal, and above all profoundly death defyingly stupid.

GetYou · Post by **GetYou** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 5:37 pm

frightful_oik wrote:I wonder who'll pay for those nice suits when the unions withdraw their funding.

Should Corbyn be excluded from the ballot and my Union not step in, I will be withdrawing my political levy immediately and encouraging everyone else at my workplace to do so. It's the reasonable thing to do.