Tuesday 12th July 2016

[JustMom]

I wish a new party would spring up with the same views and thoughts as Jeremy,I can't see me ever supporting labour again.
I feel dead sick over all this.

[PaulfromYorkshire]

Interesting counter-argument on Twitter that secret ballot may actually be due to terrified Corbyn supporters!

[PaulfromYorkshire]

I wish a new party would spring up with the same views and thoughts as Jeremy,I can't see me ever supporting labour again.
I feel dead sick over all this.

I completely understand how you feel, but if all the good guys walk away...

Please try to hang on in there. There will still be good councillors and MPs to vote for depending where you are.

[GetYou]

I disagree, Paul. The good councillors and MPs will be answerable to the wreckers for evermore.

If all the good guys walk away we can perhaps forge something better and leave these bastards to rot.

[TobyLatimer]

Is the fix in? What Tom Watson would have to do to get Labour’s NEC to exclude Jeremy Corbyn from a leadership ballot

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[SpinningHugo]

You do realise, Hugo, that the reason why so many people voted for Corbyn was that it was because they believed the Labour Party was doomed if they didn't?

Have you ever, ever, ever once thought like this in that weird little 'I am always right, you are always wrong' world of yours? Ever?

Yes of course I know that.

I think they are all wrong.

Why do you think I keep arguing the opposite? For the jokes?

[PaulfromYorkshire]

Laura KuenssbergVerified account ‏@bbclaurak
Corbyn apparently back in room at NEC - does that mean there's been a decision? If you've followed Labour politics for a while..probably not

[ohsocynical]

Stephen Bush ‏@stephenkb 1h1 hour ago

"Watson has stitched it up", texts senior loyalist.

[SpinningHugo]

They think they don't need members (save for a few unthinking drones to deliver a few leaflets, maybe)

Its about getting money from rich donors and favourable media coverage. As I just said, they are almost certainly deluded about both.

I am sure they do need members. However, as you will know when it does come down to the actual leg work, many of the new younger ones don't show up.

[SpinningHugo]

It might be worth pointing out again that yesterday our incoming PM espoused several positions placing her to the left of a hefty chunk of Labour MPs.

What is the point of a Labour party where such people hold the whip hand even existing?

Make no mistake though, that is what the "dark forces" behind this coup want. Selfish, venal, and above all profoundly death defyingly stupid.

Oh what rot.

It has been done in the open. he has been stabbed in the front. The overwhelming majority of the PLP couldn't carry on with him as leader. It wasn't a tiny Blairite clique as you would prefer.

Unless Watson (!?!) is now a Blairite.

[Lost Soul]

So, they haven't actually voted yet... ?

Or have I missed something ?

[ephemerid]

He may have fixed it, but at what cost? The end of the Labour party as we have known it, quite possibly.

I hope he feels it was worth it in the years and decades to come.

Difficult, indeed invidious, choice.

Try and think like me and Watson.

If you think, as Watson and I do, that Labour is utterly doomed if Corbyn carries on as leader what do you do?

You have to be pretty damn committed to ensuring members get their way to allow Corbyn to go forward without requiring he has support of 1/5th of MPs and MEPs.

I do understand that others don't accept the premise that Watson and I share.

[Of course we don't know the result yet.]

I would rip my brain out through my ears if I ever thought like you, you slimy little toad, applauding the kind of third world political fix that this country used to condemn without even thinking. You pollute this forum.

You rock, mbc1955.

[SpinningHugo]

I wonder who'll pay for those nice suits when the unions withdraw their funding.

Should Corbyn be excluded from the ballot and my Union not step in, I will be withdrawing my political levy immediately and encouraging everyone else at my workplace to do so. It's the reasonable thing to do.

He is not being exluded from the ballot (if that is the conclusion).

He will need 1/5th of the PLP, EPLP to be on it like anyone else

[AnatolyKasparov]

I liked my MP until he went a bit mad after the last GE (it started before Jez won, but that made it much worse)

Not sure if I could even vote for him now, even if the party holds together.

If it really does come to a split, its the people at grassroots level who are really going to feel it - just as in 1981.

Erstwhile friends and even families divided, just horrible.

As with much else, it could have been different had the b***ard Blairites just supported Ed.

They could go down in history as reviled as Ramsay Mac and his quislings (even if that word wasn't invented then) back in 1931.

[ohsocynical]

I disagree, Paul. The good councillors and MPs will be answerable to the wreckers for evermore.

If all the good guys walk away we can perhaps forge something better and leave these bastards to rot.

All I can think is, do these MPs think it's all going to be touchy feely lets put the past behind us at the next GE?
What's going to be the point of voting Labour, because they've plainly told thousands of us where to go ...

[Rebecca]

You do realise, Hugo, that the reason why so many people voted for Corbyn was that it was because they believed the Labour Party was doomed if they didn't?

Have you ever, ever, ever once thought like this in that weird little 'I am always right, you are always wrong' world of yours? Ever?

Yes of course I know that.

I think they are all wrong.

Why do you think I keep arguing the opposite? For the jokes?

Because you are an annoying little shit who keeps getting booted off the Guardian.

[danesclose]

Mary Turner of GMB is absent from the NEC because of 'illness'.

The oldest trick in the book.

Watson has fixed it.

That is what Watson was elected to do.

Back briefly between having a life.

2016-07-12_175132.jpg (26.78 KiB) Viewed 7383 times

Turns out Mary Turner is actually in hospital, rather than performing "the oldest trick in the book".
Hugo, I'd like to think that this will impact in some way on your smug, patronising tone, but I very much doubt it will.

A bientot

[GetYou]

Thanks Rebecca that has properly made me chuckle

[SpinningHugo]

Difficult, indeed invidious, choice.

Try and think like me and Watson.

If you think, as Watson and I do, that Labour is utterly doomed if Corbyn carries on as leader what do you do?

You have to be pretty damn committed to ensuring members get their way to allow Corbyn to go forward without requiring he has support of 1/5th of MPs and MEPs.

I do understand that others don't accept the premise that Watson and I share.

[Of course we don't know the result yet.]

I would rip my brain out through my ears if I ever thought like you, you slimy little toad, applauding the kind of third world political fix that this country used to condemn without even thinking. You pollute this forum.

I hope Hugo will put his money where his mouth is. He'll need more than one comfortable pair of shoes to deliver leaflets and knock on doors to make up for the lack of willing supporters these mealy mouthed MPs will have driven away.

Lets see them survive when the money dries up, and they're out there wearing their feet out in order to get elected.

And on the subject of voting for them, who says half a million angry members will?

Well, I have done plenty of walking the streets for Labour in the past (including campaigning in seats we took from the Tories in both 92 and 97).

I resigned from Labour on 12 September last year. At the moment whether i even vote Labour will depend on the individual candidate.

So, you may well criticise me for not having a dog in this fight any longer.

However, i did not think it was a requirement of posting here that I am a Labour party member?

[SpinningHugo]

Mary Turner of GMB is absent from the NEC because of 'illness'.

The oldest trick in the book.

Watson has fixed it.

That is what Watson was elected to do.

Back briefly between having a life.

2016-07-12_175132.jpg

Turns out Mary Turner is actually in hospital, rather than performing "the oldest trick in the book".
Hugo, I'd like to think that this will impact in some way on your smug, patronising tone, but I very much doubt it will.

A bientot

of course, i was clearly flat wrong.

[ohsocynical]

They think they don't need members (save for a few unthinking drones to deliver a few leaflets, maybe)

Its about getting money from rich donors and favourable media coverage. As I just said, they are almost certainly deluded about both.

I am sure they do need members. However, as you will know when it does come down to the actual leg work, many of the new younger ones don't show up.

That's fucking insulting to the thousands of volunteers who walked themselves to a standstill at the GE for council elections and for the Ref ... And I've seen them so don't try that old bullshit on me.

[SpinningHugo]

As with much else, it could have been different had the b***ard Blairites just supported Ed.

.

1. Always looking backwards

2. Always the Blairites fault.

[AnatolyKasparov]

It might be worth pointing out again that yesterday our incoming PM espoused several positions placing her to the left of a hefty chunk of Labour MPs.

What is the point of a Labour party where such people hold the whip hand even existing?

Make no mistake though, that is what the "dark forces" behind this coup want. Selfish, venal, and above all profoundly death defyingly stupid.

Oh what rot.

It has been done in the open. he has been stabbed in the front. The overwhelming majority of the PLP couldn't carry on with him as leader. It wasn't a tiny Blairite clique as you would prefer.

Unless Watson (!?!) is now a Blairite.

Typically, you obsess over such narrow legalistic points.

You may recall I didn't vote for Watson last year - I have never trusted him and indeed thought his behaviour in 2006 was pretty disgraceful.

(and pointless, Blair was going anyway in due course - sound familiar?)

The point is, the space for the sort of Labour party he wants no longer exists. Its day is done.

Its either a meaningful explicitly leftist alternative to the Tories - or nothing.

(that doesn't mean Corbyn, it does mean much of his political programme has to live on)

[ohsocynical]

I can only walk a few yards but even I managed to deliver leaflets you apology for a human being.
Fuck new Labour. Fuck Wilson. Fuck Eagle and the rest of the mealy mouthed PLP.

I wish you joy of it.

[SpinningHugo]

I remember a previous post which was to the effect of 'try to think like me and Blair', suggesting that Tony Blair had to intervene in the Labour leadership election because he couldn't stay out. Result - a lot more votes for Corbyn.

I really think a legal blog written by someone with no apparent legal knowledge should not be repeatedly posted on these pages.

i am afraid that isn't fair one either me or Blair.

Blair only intervened right at the end long after it was clear Corbyn was going to win by a mile. He knows as well as everyone else what his standing with the membership is.

As for the legal knowledge bit, yes i am completely sure you are right.

[AnatolyKasparov]

As with much else, it could have been different had the b***ard Blairites just supported Ed.

.

1. Always looking backwards

2. Always the Blairites fault.

Its because of them, that we are where we are now.

Suck it up.

[Rebecca]

I wish a new party would spring up with the same views and thoughts as Jeremy,I can't see me ever supporting labour again.
I feel dead sick over all this.

I completely understand how you feel, but if all the good guys walk away...

Please try to hang on in there. There will still be good councillors and MPs to vote for depending where you are.

Not with a party led by MPs prepared to betray everything the party is supposed to stand for. I will not legitimise them by voting for anyone standing on the same platform.

Corbyn kept off the ballot = Labour dead to me. Sorry to those who want to stay and make it work, but I could not condone the seizure of power in that way.

Couldn't agree more.
Even if/when Corbyn is elected leader again it will be hard to stomach the pile of shits in the PLP.
Really would like a split.
I loathe some of the PLP as much as the Tories.

[ohsocynical]

I wish a new party would spring up with the same views and thoughts as Jeremy,I can't see me ever supporting labour again.
I feel dead sick over all this.

I completely understand how you feel, but if all the good guys walk away...

Please try to hang on in there. There will still be good councillors and MPs to vote for depending where you are.

Not with a party led by MPs prepared to betray everything the party is supposed to stand for. I will not legitimise them by voting for anyone standing on the same platform.

Corbyn kept off the ballot = Labour dead to me. Sorry to those who want to stay and make it work, but I could not condone the seizure of power in that way.

You can't work with people who cheat and lie. They've been very plain about the majority of their membership. We're dogs, a mob, a rabble. They don't give a tinkers cuss about us. Glad of the money, but not wanting the responsibility that comes with it.

[ohsocynical]

I completely understand how you feel, but if all the good guys walk away...

Please try to hang on in there. There will still be good councillors and MPs to vote for depending where you are.

Not with a party led by MPs prepared to betray everything the party is supposed to stand for. I will not legitimise them by voting for anyone standing on the same platform.

Corbyn kept off the ballot = Labour dead to me. Sorry to those who want to stay and make it work, but I could not condone the seizure of power in that way.

Couldn't agree more.
Even if/when Corbyn is elected leader again it will be hard to stomach the pile of shits in the PLP.
Really would like a split.
I loathe some of the PLP as much as the Tories.

I think in this instance they've proved themselves worse.

[Rebecca]

I completely understand how you feel, but if all the good guys walk away...

Please try to hang on in there. There will still be good councillors and MPs to vote for depending where you are.

Not with a party led by MPs prepared to betray everything the party is supposed to stand for. I will not legitimise them by voting for anyone standing on the same platform.

Corbyn kept off the ballot = Labour dead to me. Sorry to those who want to stay and make it work, but I could not condone the seizure of power in that way.

You can't work with people who cheat and lie. They've been very plain about the majority of their membership. We're dogs, a mob, a rabble. They don't give a tinkers cuss about us. Glad of the money, but not wanting the responsibility that comes with it.

Well,Mrs Ohso,if they keep Corbyn off the ballot they will be seeing a lot more of the dogs/mob and rabble.
I will donate to Momentum the minute it happens.

[mbc1955]

I would rip my brain out through my ears if I ever thought like you, you slimy little toad, applauding the kind of third world political fix that this country used to condemn without even thinking. You pollute this forum.

I hope Hugo will put his money where his mouth is. He'll need more than one comfortable pair of shoes to deliver leaflets and knock on doors to make up for the lack of willing supporters these mealy mouthed MPs will have driven away.

Lets see them survive when the money dries up, and they're out there wearing their feet out in order to get elected.

And on the subject of voting for them, who says half a million angry members will?

Well, I have done plenty of walking the streets for Labour in the past (including campaigning in seats we took from the Tories in both 92 and 97).

I resigned from Labour on 12 September last year. At the moment whether i even vote Labour will depend on the individual candidate.

So, you may well criticise me for not having a dog in this fight any longer.

However, i did not think it was a requirement of posting here that I am a Labour party member?

You mealy-mouthed little toad, if this forum had requirements for posting they would have been framed to exclude you permanently a very long time ago. You are an utterly disgraceful little shit.

[TobyLatimer]

Much easier on the blood pressure if one doesn't engage.

We might not all agree, but personally speaking I find it simpler just gloss over and ignore if I know in advance that the red mist will arise from reading posts of a certain nature.

[SpinningHugo]

(and pointless, Blair was going anyway in due course - sound familiar?)

The point is, the space for the sort of Labour party he wants no longer exists. Its day is done.

Its either a meaningful explicitly leftist alternative to the Tories - or nothing.

(that doesn't mean Corbyn, it does mean much of his political programme has to live on)

1. Not it doesn't 'sound familiar'. Your claim that Corbyn would quit is not credible. Over-optimism.

2. Nobody but nobody thinks a Blairite will be leading the Labour party. As you gleefully like pointing out, Kendall got 4.5%. David Miliband is not making a comeback. The party is a long way from 2010, let alone 1997.

3. I didn't vote for Watson either, but it is the soft left who have come for Corbyn: they are the ones with the numbers, not the Blairite rump.

[ephemerid]

I remember a previous post which was to the effect of 'try to think like me and Blair', suggesting that Tony Blair had to intervene in the Labour leadership election because he couldn't stay out. Result - a lot more votes for Corbyn.

I really think a legal blog written by someone with no apparent legal knowledge should not be repeatedly posted on these pages.

Agreed.

[Rebecca]

I remember a previous post which was to the effect of 'try to think like me and Blair', suggesting that Tony Blair had to intervene in the Labour leadership election because he couldn't stay out. Result - a lot more votes for Corbyn.

I really think a legal blog written by someone with no apparent legal knowledge should not be repeatedly posted on these pages.

Agreed.

Like anyone reads it anyway.

[PaulfromYorkshire]

You cannot be serious

[PorFavor]

Whatever your views on the leadership of the Labour Party (and I imagine that you all know mine) this is an unedifying, embarrassing and distressing mess. I may have my suspicions about the brick incident but that doesn't justify Angela Eagle and the BBC claiming, without any proof (or none that they're sharing, which amounts to the same thing), that they know for a certainty.

[mbc1955]

Much easier on the blood pressure if one doesn't engage.

We might not all agree, but personally speaking I find it simpler just gloss over and ignore if I know in advance that the red mist will arise from reading posts of a certain nature.

I take your point, but sometimes points that are particularly offensive should be greeted robustly.

Ideally, nobody should engage Hugo under any circumstances, he should be completely frozen out. I will ignore him if everyone else does.

[Rebecca]

Whatever your views on the leadership of the Labour Party (and I imagine that you all know mine) this is an unedifying, embarrassing and distressing mess. I may have my suspicions about the brick incident but that doesn't justify Angela Eagle and the BBC claiming, without any proof (or none that they're sharing, which amounts to the same thing), that they know for a certainty.

If they know they can prove it I suppose.

[TR'sGhost]

Mary Turner of GMB is absent from the NEC because of 'illness'.

The oldest trick in the book.

Watson has fixed it.

That is what Watson was elected to do.

Back briefly between having a life.

2016-07-12_175132.jpg

Turns out Mary Turner is actually in hospital, rather than performing "the oldest trick in the book".
Hugo, I'd like to think that this will impact in some way on your smug, patronising tone, but I very much doubt it will.

A bientot

of course, i was clearly flat wrong.

Now that's not something I recall you ever acknowledging before.

It might be a good idea to arrange for your post saying Tom Watson had rigged things to be deleted, along with any comments that quote it. Because it looks remarkably libellous from where I'm sitting.

I'm surprised such a deep thinking, legally astute ever-present Net God such as yourself didn't consider that risk when you posted it.

[utopiandreams]

Okay, I'm back. Have just seen Laura Kuenssberg on BBC News speaking of months and months of behind the scenes manoeuvring, plots, or whatever it was she called them, but no mention whatsoever of her own role in these.

[SpinningHugo]

Micahel Crick's tweets of interest

https://twitter.com/MichaelLCrick" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Corbyn refused to leave when NEC Chair asked him to.

meeting could last another 2-4 hours.

Secret ballot vote was 17-15: so very tight.

[PorFavor]

Michael Crick
✔
@MichaelLCrick

One source tells me they reckon Labour NEC meeting could last another 3-4 hours
6:04 PM - 12 Jul 2016

148 148 Retweets
33 (Politics Live, Guardian)

[refitman]

Can we please try to keep it civil and reign back from personal abuse.

[GetYou]

https://twitter.com/PeoplesMomentum/sta ... 2539087872

Momentum ‏@PeoplesMomentum 2h2 hours ago

Abuse is unacceptable. Cynically using incidents to score political points or blame an entire movement is too.

[yahyah]

Jeremy Corby said it was a total fabrication he refused to leave the meeting,he left right away.

Radio 4 was reporting it as he refused to leave when I came in from gardening, not more than an hour ago. Norman Smith made it sound like WW3 had broken out and no one was safe anywhere near a Labour supporter who was to the left of Frank Field.

Madness. Maybe Robert Harris got his plot for The Ghost wrong.
It is more like Labour's version of Murder on the Orient Express, they've all killed the party.

I honestly don't know who to trust. Am feeling p***ed off with both sides.

[SpinningHugo]

Back briefly between having a life.

2016-07-12_175132.jpg

Turns out Mary Turner is actually in hospital, rather than performing "the oldest trick in the book".
Hugo, I'd like to think that this will impact in some way on your smug, patronising tone, but I very much doubt it will.

A bientot

of course, i was clearly flat wrong.

Now that's not something I recall you ever acknowledging before.

It might be a good idea to arrange for your post saying Tom Watson had rigged things to be deleted, along with any comments that quote it. Because it looks remarkably libellous from where I'm sitting.

I'm surprised such a deep thinking, legally astute ever-present Net God such as yourself didn't consider that risk when you posted it.

You think Watson didn't try and persuade people to vote the way he would prefer?

Very noble of him if so.

I think what i said was honest comment (and wouldn't make reasonable people think worse of Watson anyway).

Oh, and one other thing I admitted I was wrong about was Labour's prospects in 2015. By the end I had allowed over-optimism to overcome my reason and thought labour would be in government. Foolish of me and I acknowledged my stupidity. Labour's position was actually much worse than I had realised.

[yahyah]

That wasn't a rant. More sadness than anything.

[yahyah]

I remember getting angry with Temulkar a long while back when he thought we were daft to stick with Labour. He said we women wouldn't tell another woman to stick with an abusive partner, one that kept messing her up.

Well Tem, you were right. It's just been too many times this has happened.

[mbc1955]

Having regard to the temper this evening, I am refraining from further posting today.