Tuesday 12th July 2016

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 6:41 pm

We've had our noses well and truly rubbed in the dirt. For months a movement of hope has been growing, but a handful of men and women, paid by us have showed exactly how much we, their party - and as I'm a pensioner and a bit old fashioned - our country means to them. They've lied, neglected their duty and now when their nasty tricks haven't worked are busy skewing the rules to suit.

If anyone thinks New Labour are suddenly going to grow a social conscience once they have their feet back under the table, they are going to be bitterly disappointed.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 6:43 pm

Night mbc. Have you got some episodes of Person of Interest as distraction ?

Night all. Curry making will take my mind off things.

Rebecca · Post by **Rebecca** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 6:48 pm

yahyah wrote:Night mbc. Have you got some episodes of Person of Interest as distraction ?

Night all. Curry making will take my mind off things.

I'm watching a Christmas x files episode.
I live in a strange household.
In the summer,my daughter listens to christmas carols and watches christmas dvds to cool herself down.
It isn't hot atm,but she has a list of 11 dvds for me to buy,As soon as it hots up I shall be listening to jolly Christmas music and hoping that the neighbours don't think I have gone mad.
Anyway,this episode of x files is in a christmas top 100.
Got my cards today too,seeing as it is that time of year!

maybe we should move to Australia.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 6:52 pm

Sunday 9 November 2014

New crisis for Ed Miliband as senior Labour MPs back leadership change
Twenty shadow ministers say they are willing to call for him to stand down, if Alan Johnson is willing to step into the breach
The Observer view on Miliband and his leadership

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... hip-change" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

With hindsight we badly underestimated the PLP. It just goes to show they consider Corbyn far more of a threat than poor Ed was.

No wonder he stepped down immediately after the GE. They'd have never let him live it down.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 6:59 pm

Another resignation,won't make the headlines.My dad,he's only 83,started collecting laundry at the age of 8.From a single parent family after his mum dad during the war.The boy done good.

danesclose · Post by **danesclose** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 7:10 pm

One more quick thing today before I piss off again (I promise).

This is what the PLP should be fighting, not playing stupid Student Union politics.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/ournhs/ri ... er-charges

However I suppose to the likes of Eagle, Kinnock, Watson etc won't give a shit about that.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 7:15 pm

George Eaton ‏@georgeeaton 2h2 hours ago

On paper, Corbyn has NEC majority of up to six. Rebels need unions to change sides in secret ballot.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 7:18 pm

Dreadful thought that if the PLP had got properly behind Ed, we could have had a Labour government.

Are they quite happy to toddle along on a fat expense account as the forever opposition party? Because that's what it looks like.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 7:21 pm

Since this forum was set up - and thank you Sky, Adam, Refit, Paul, and all the founding members - it has been a "haven" from the G's nesting and all the predicted consequences of same.
I have felt as though I am among friends; and some of you are in communication with me in real life. We do not all agree, this is far from the echo chamber some accuse it of being.

Stupid, nasty, vicious and invariably badly-informed trolls are dealt with, and our lovely admin people have seen them off when they cause too much disruption. Thank you.
I have no problem with people whose views I disagree with; we have regular posters here who do not mince their words, and there are times when things get a bit tetchy.

But - it's a whole new ballgame when days on end of comments end up with the sort of escalation we have had here today.
For nearly a week, the same person has been causing, deliberately IMHO, an atmosphere so unpleasant I felt the need to stay away.

Didactic (or probably auto-didactic) pronouncements, short on fact and heavy on opinion, delivered in a patronising tone; instructions imparted to "admit your error" or "think like me"; and when a reasonable response is given, or indeed actual facts in counter-argument, the result is invariably more ridiculous questions, more denial of what people have said, and the whole day is spoiled.

Those who suggest that we should simply ignore all this (or keep it civil, sorry Refitman) are, with the deepest of respect, missing the point that the person doing this is, effectively, a troll. A person who chooses to sow discord and who behaves this way should be asked to stop.

This place is special to me. It feels like the old CIF used to feel - people having discussions on the issues of the day in a safe and civilised space.
It hasn't felt like that for the past week, and one person is responsible for it.
Of course, we have been here before. It has been said by the person concerned that I have a problem with him - I do; and judging by the thanks and responses over the past few days it seems I am not alone.

I have already refused to engage with his nonsense. I hope others do too. Maybe then he will see that for some of us he is not welcome.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 7:22 pm

Daniel Sugarman ‏@Daniel_Sugarman 15m15 minutes ago
BBC reporting that Labour has suspended the ENTIRE constituency party of Gorton:

: CnLvGu1XYAAw-jp.jpg (136.02 KiB) Viewed 7170 times

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 7:28 pm

ephemerid wrote:Since this forum was set up - and thank you Sky, Adam, Refit, Paul, and all the founding members - it has been a "haven" from the G's nesting and all the predicted consequences of same.
I have felt as though I am among friends; and some of you are in communication with me in real life. We do not all agree, this is far from the echo chamber some accuse it of being.

Stupid, nasty, vicious and invariably badly-informed trolls are dealt with, and our lovely admin people have seen them off when they cause too much disruption. Thank you.
I have no problem with people whose views I disagree with; we have regular posters here who do not mince their words, and there are times when things get a bit tetchy.

But - it's a whole new ballgame when days on end of comments end up with the sort of escalation we have had here today.
For nearly a week, the same person has been causing, deliberately IMHO, an atmosphere so unpleasant I felt the need to stay away.

Didactic (or probably auto-didactic) pronouncements, short on fact and heavy on opinion, delivered in a patronising tone; instructions imparted to "admit your error" or "think like me"; and when a reasonable response is given, or indeed actual facts in counter-argument, the result is invariably more ridiculous questions, more denial of what people have said, and the whole day is spoiled.

Those who suggest that we should simply ignore all this (or keep it civil, sorry Refitman) are, with the deepest of respect, missing the point that the person doing this is, effectively, a troll. A person who chooses to sow discord and who behaves this way should be asked to stop.

This place is special to me. It feels like the old CIF used to feel - people having discussions on the issues of the day in a safe and civilised space.
It hasn't felt like that for the past week, and one person is responsible for it.
Of course, we have been here before. It has been said by the person concerned that I have a problem with him - I do; and judging by the thanks and responses over the past few days it seems I am not alone.

I have already refused to engage with his nonsense. I hope others do too. Maybe then he will see that for some of us he is not welcome.

I am sorry for losing my temper with him, but I remembered one lady past retirement age, who couldn't get up a flight of stairs to our flat because her knees had seized up through delivering thousands of leaflets for days on end, and then watching her hobble over to her car.

And how many are now thinking what a waste of their precious energy....

frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 7:32 pm

ephemerid wrote:Since this forum was set up - and thank you Sky, Adam, Refit, Paul, and all the founding members - it has been a "haven" from the G's nesting and all the predicted consequences of same.
I have felt as though I am among friends; and some of you are in communication with me in real life. We do not all agree, this is far from the echo chamber some accuse it of being.

Stupid, nasty, vicious and invariably badly-informed trolls are dealt with, and our lovely admin people have seen them off when they cause too much disruption. Thank you.
I have no problem with people whose views I disagree with; we have regular posters here who do not mince their words, and there are times when things get a bit tetchy.

But - it's a whole new ballgame when days on end of comments end up with the sort of escalation we have had here today.
For nearly a week, the same person has been causing, deliberately IMHO, an atmosphere so unpleasant I felt the need to stay away.

Didactic (or probably auto-didactic) pronouncements, short on fact and heavy on opinion, delivered in a patronising tone; instructions imparted to "admit your error" or "think like me"; and when a reasonable response is given, or indeed actual facts in counter-argument, the result is invariably more ridiculous questions, more denial of what people have said, and the whole day is spoiled.

Those who suggest that we should simply ignore all this (or keep it civil, sorry Refitman) are, with the deepest of respect, missing the point that the person doing this is, effectively, a troll. A person who chooses to sow discord and who behaves this way should be asked to stop.

This place is special to me. It feels like the old CIF used to feel - people having discussions on the issues of the day in a safe and civilised space.
It hasn't felt like that for the past week, and one person is responsible for it.
Of course, we have been here before. It has been said by the person concerned that I have a problem with him - I do; and judging by the thanks and responses over the past few days it seems I am not alone.

I have already refused to engage with his nonsense. I hope others do too. Maybe then he will see that for some of us he is not welcome.

Ephe -- I've always had a Golden Rule that it is not in fact compulsory to post, or reply to posts, and that the little wheel we have on top of our mice (in France , at least) is for scrolling by .

Problem solved

Tonibel · Post by **Tonibel** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 7:33 pm

Just signed in specially to thank you all (with one exception) for your informative interesting and diverse posts. No falling out please.
P.S.Stephen Kinnock is a nasty little shit

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 7:37 pm

Irrelevant,just ignore,if you haven't already

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 7:38 pm

5m ago 19:33

A vote at the NEC is due to take place shortly it seems. (Politics Live, Guardian)

Hairychap · Post by **Hairychap** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 7:43 pm

I'm feeling just as angry as a lot of you chaps today *squeeze* feels like the country voted right wing coup a few weeks ago.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 7:50 pm

Corbyn's on the ballot!

mbc1955 · Post by **mbc1955** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 7:51 pm

Yes!!

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 7:51 pm

George Eaton ‏@georgeeaton 3m3 minutes ago

Corbyn is on the ballot - Labour rebels lose by four.

OK, can whoever wants to challenge him for the leadership just get on with it.

Just...do it. Get it over with.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 7:52 pm

There you go.

Everyone feel better?

i still, of course, agree with 81% of the PLP, but they won't be the PLP for much longer, by one means or another.

JustMom · Post by **JustMom** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 7:53 pm

Oh thank god !

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 7:53 pm

ohsocynical wrote: And how many are now thinking what a waste of their precious energy....

Well, me of course, but I've felt like that since last summer, so no loss.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 7:56 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:George Eaton ‏@georgeeaton 3m3 minutes ago

Corbyn is on the ballot - Labour rebels lose by four.

OK, can whoever wants to challenge him for the leadership just get on with it.

Just...do it. Get it over with.

They will.

Corbyn will win.

And we are back here next year.

(My reading of the rules is that only an annual challenge is allowed, though some disagree).

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 7:57 pm

ephemerid wrote:Corbyn's on the ballot!

This is good news, Smithson and Robert Peston were claiming earlier they had info Corbyn had lost, or needed nominations.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 7:57 pm

The only sane course.

I am relieved, but also fearful - the bad feeling on both sides the last few weeks have engendered is not going to go away in a hurry.

Can I just ask one thing right now - whoever ends up opposing JC on the ballot (and due to the voting system, there is no reason why it can't be more than one person) set out YOUR vision of what you think the Labour party should stand for and aim for. Not just negative attacks on Jez.

As for the incumbent, he needs to make some serious efforts to reach out to at least some of the 172. That may involve certain changes (not least in personnel)

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 7:59 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
RogerOThornhill wrote:George Eaton ‏@georgeeaton 3m3 minutes ago

Corbyn is on the ballot - Labour rebels lose by four.

OK, can whoever wants to challenge him for the leadership just get on with it.

Just...do it. Get it over with.
They will.

Corbyn will win.

And we are back here next year.

(My reading of the rules is that only an annual challenge is allowed, though some disagree).

Why are you so certain Corbyn will win? I sort of hope he does just so that the PLP doesn't get away with treating the members with the contempt they have (not a new problem, admittedly, they've been doing it for decades), but I'm not certain of it.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 8:00 pm

of course events may forestall our going through all this next year,

1. Boundary adjustments.

2. May seeks a mandate.

3. The inevitable happens.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 8:02 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:The only sane course.

I am relieved, but also fearful - the bad feeling on both sides the last few weeks have engendered is not going to go away in a hurry.

Can I just ask one thing right now - whoever ends up opposing JC on the ballot (and due to the voting system, there is no reason why it can't be more than one person) set out YOUR vision of what you think the Labour party should stand for and aim for. Not just negative attacks on Jez.

As for the incumbent, he needs to make some serious efforts to reach out to at least some of the 172. That may involve certain changes (not least in personnel)

I read that yesterday Andy Burnham had called for talks? Snag is you never know who to trust now....

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 8:02 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:of course events may forestall our going through all this next year,

1. Boundary adjustments.

2. May seeks a mandate.

3. The inevitable happens.

Ffs. Nothing is inevitable. Just a week or so ago it was inevitable that Boris Johnson was going to compete for the Tory leadership and David Cameron was going to stay on until September.

Events, dear boy, events.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 8:03 pm

JonnyT1234 wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
RogerOThornhill wrote:George Eaton ‏@georgeeaton 3m3 minutes ago

Corbyn is on the ballot - Labour rebels lose by four.

OK, can whoever wants to challenge him for the leadership just get on with it.

Just...do it. Get it over with.
They will.

Corbyn will win.

And we are back here next year.

(My reading of the rules is that only an annual challenge is allowed, though some disagree).
Why are you so certain Corbyn will win? I sort of hope he does just so that the PLP doesn't get away with treating the members with the contempt they have (not a new problem, admittedly, they've been doing it for decades), but I'm not certain of it.

See this board. See every Labour board i frequent. Go to your local CLP (I don't attend mine anymore).

Corbyn is going to win easily.

Not least because this year we only have stalking horse candidates. The PLP is playing a long game.

I know most here now hate her, but I agree with Toynbee in the last paragraph of this

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... membership" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Takes guts.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 8:04 pm

Edward R. Murrow -

"When the politicians complain that TV turns the proceedings into a circus, it should be made clear that the circus was already there, and that TV has merely demonstrated that not all the performers are well trained".

And what a circus it has been - and a pisspoor performance from the PLP.

So - what now? Does Angela Eagle continue? Will more of the 172 show a bit of courage?

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 8:05 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:As for the incumbent, he needs to make some serious efforts to reach out to at least some of the 172. That may involve certain changes (not least in personnel)

He needs to do more than that. He needs to sell himself to the Membership too. He needs to set out or reaffirm his vision too. Not only that, but how he's also going to achieve it. He isn't a shoo-in just by virtue of being Jeremy Corbyn (edit: though he may be one by virtue of not being seen to be the PLP).

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 8:11 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote: As for the incumbent, he needs to make some serious efforts to reach out to at least some of the 172. That may involve certain changes (not least in personnel)

I rather thought that Tom Watson (didn't vote for him, either) was meant to fulfill a "God's representative on earth" role. He's proved to be a failure at that and has been disloyal to boot. Dare I suggest . . .

Tizme1 · Post by **Tizme1** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 8:12 pm

Evening all,

One or two local Labour party members have previously told me, if/when Corbyn was forced out, they would be joining us Greens. They are good people and I'd love to welcome them into our local Green party. However, I'm glad that won't be happening at the moment. To exclude Corbyn from the leadership ballot would have been a travesty of natural justice.

How Labour get themselves out of the mess they are in I don't know. It seems increasingly that there will have to be some kind of split. It would appear that the broad church of Labour became too broad.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 8:14 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:Takes guts.

So does facing down the PLP. More than once too.

The PLP is playing the long game

Unfortunately Hugo, they're shit at the game. Really, really, really shit. They need to start playing a different one. Like attacking the Tories instead of their own party and its members. You never know, it may even win them an election. Couldn't hurt to try could it.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 8:14 pm

Michael Chessum ‏@michael_chessum 15m15 minutes ago

God. Imagine being @lukeakehurst or @tom_watson right now. #LabourNEC

minch · Post by **minch** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 8:16 pm

A question
If Eagle withdraws is that the one Challenge allowed this year over and done with?

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 8:17 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
JonnyT1234 wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote: They will.

Corbyn will win.

And we are back here next year.

(My reading of the rules is that only an annual challenge is allowed, though some disagree).
Why are you so certain Corbyn will win? I sort of hope he does just so that the PLP doesn't get away with treating the members with the contempt they have (not a new problem, admittedly, they've been doing it for decades), but I'm not certain of it.

See this board. See every Labour board i frequent. Go to your local CLP (I don't attend mine anymore).

Corbyn is going to win easily.

Not least because this year we only have stalking horse candidates. The PLP is playing a long game.

I know most here now hate her, but I agree with Toynbee in the last paragraph of this

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... membership" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Takes guts.

PLP are not playinig any game whatsoever, they have bungled this right from the start and were flying from the seat of their pants from the monday after brexit, and hhave been running around like headless chickkens ever since. They don't know what they are doing they have no plan, they have tried every trick in the book to avoid the contest, but not in any coherent way, if they had managed just an iota of intelligence corbyn could have been gone by now, instead they misjudged a man who has been a street fighter in politics all his lifem and went down to the street to take him on. No subtlety, no clever idea, no challenger.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 8:20 pm

JonnyT1234 wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:Takes guts.
So does facing down the PLP. More than once too.

The PLP is playing the long game
Unfortunately Hugo, they're shit at the game. Really, really, really shit. They need to start playing a different one. Like attacking the Tories instead of their own party and its members. You never know, it may even win them an election. Couldn't hurt to try could it.

1. it does indeed take a certain amount of courage to persevere knowing that (at least) 81% of your MPs want you gone. How the opposition will function with this rather "odd" shadow cabinet will be very interesting. I would never doubt Corbyn's commitment to what he believes. Corbyn and McDonnell and the rest have spent 40 years being defeated and mocked. Now they have won, they aren't going to let go. Thinking he'd quit was always wrong.

2. I think they gave it as good a go as it deserved. I agree with that most hated group: the vast majority of Labour Mps. They aren't going to give it another go, the 172 will now take the Cooper option (which is what I would have done too).

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 8:23 pm

Temulkar wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
JonnyT1234 wrote: Why are you so certain Corbyn will win? I sort of hope he does just so that the PLP doesn't get away with treating the members with the contempt they have (not a new problem, admittedly, they've been doing it for decades), but I'm not certain of it.

See this board. See every Labour board i frequent. Go to your local CLP (I don't attend mine anymore).

Corbyn is going to win easily.

Not least because this year we only have stalking horse candidates. The PLP is playing a long game.

I know most here now hate her, but I agree with Toynbee in the last paragraph of this

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... membership" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Takes guts.
PLP are not playinig any game whatsoever, they have bungled this right from the start and were flying from the seat of their pants from the monday after brexit, and hhave been running around like headless chickkens ever since. They don't know what they are doing they have no plan, they have tried every trick in the book to avoid the contest, but not in any coherent way, if they had managed just an iota of intelligence corbyn could have been gone by now, instead they misjudged a man who has been a street fighter in politics all his lifem and went down to the street to take him on. No subtlety, no clever idea, no challenger.

Well, critics can't have it both ways. Was it a longterm dastardly conspiracy, or an ill co-ordinated spontaneous uprising?

How could they have had him gone? What else are you suggesting they did/do?

FWIIW I too think it was largely spontaneous as a result of the EU referendum. Most Labour MPs rblamed Corbyn for his part in the result. Justifiably in my view. And wanted a pro-EU leader.

Post by **refitman** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 8:29 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
JonnyT1234 wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:Takes guts.
So does facing down the PLP. More than once too.

The PLP is playing the long game
Unfortunately Hugo, they're shit at the game. Really, really, really shit. They need to start playing a different one. Like attacking the Tories instead of their own party and its members. You never know, it may even win them an election. Couldn't hurt to try could it.

1. it does indeed take a certain amount of courage to persevere knowing that (at least) 81% of your MPs want you gone. How the opposition will function with this rather "odd" shadow cabinet will be very interesting. I would never doubt Corbyn's commitment to what he believes. Corbyn and McDonnell and the rest have spent 40 years being defeated and mocked. Now they have won, they aren't going to let go. Thinking he'd quit was always wrong.

2. I think they gave it as good a go as it deserved. I agree with that most hated group: the vast majority of Labour Mps. They aren't going to give it another go, the 172 will now take the Cooper option (which is what I would have done too).

And winning their own seats for the last 30+ and 19 years respectively. Yes, they've never won en election

. I'm also sure they realise that there is a much better chance of enacting the policies they believe in, is to win with Labour. To suggest otherwise is downright insulting to people who think that Governments should be less beholden to big business and more concerned with protecting the most vulnerable in society and helping people improve themselves.

Tell you what Hugo, if you hate the Tories so much (and I haven't seen much evidence to be honest), why don't you turn your energies to fighting them, instead of the party you claim to love?

And the 172? It does appear that some of them regret resigning.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 8:32 pm

Tell you what I'll be more careful with who I vote for in the NEC this year. It's felt like a complete waste of time in recent years.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 8:34 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:How could they have had him gone? What else are you suggesting they did/do?

Instead of trying to force him to resign with their idiotic coup/confidence vote:

1. Raise his performance post EU referendum (it was a mistake to attack him for his pre-referendum one given that most people agreed with Corbyn, that the EU is a bit shit) where he was too keen to push for article 50, which was against the wishes of the majority of Labour supporters.

That was an EASY win. It would have persuaded some of Corbyn's supporters to think twice about backing him again.

2. Challenge him directly - none of this confidence vote nonsense in the vague hope that he would resign. That whole process has made them look completely inept. Because it was completely inept.

3. Remember that Corbyn himself has said that the leader should be challenged on a regular basis. If objections were raised about mounting a challenge, use that to counter them.

Bloody hell. This took me all of 5 minutes to think of. It would have been infinitely more effective than what has just transpired. It may have even unseated Corbyn without all the furore.

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 8:35 pm

Johm McTernan moaning on BBC that we can't afford to lose votes, like Scotland for instance.

Post by **refitman** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 8:37 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:Well, critics can't have it both ways. Was it a longterm dastardly conspiracy, or an ill co-ordinated spontaneous uprising?

How could they have had him gone? What else are you suggesting they did/do?

FWIIW I too think it was largely spontaneous as a result of the EU referendum. Most Labour MPs rblamed Corbyn for his part in the result. Justifiably in my view. And wanted a pro-EU leader.

The evidence is that they have been planning this since he was elected, only to find he kept being successful (Oldham for example). They didn't exactly hide their intention to try to get rid of him, when they tried to set up a "let's get Corbyn" group BEFORE HE WAS EVEN ELECTED!

It has been an almighty clusterfuck that has, to my mind, proved that the likes of Benn and the other should never, ever, be in charge of the Labour party.

When did they get behind him? When did they publicly support him? Fucking Benn, getting an ovation from the Tories for his Syria speech. Dick of the highest order.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 8:41 pm

refitman wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
JonnyT1234 wrote: So does facing down the PLP. More than once too.
Unfortunately Hugo, they're shit at the game. Really, really, really shit. They need to start playing a different one. Like attacking the Tories instead of their own party and its members. You never know, it may even win them an election. Couldn't hurt to try could it.

1. it does indeed take a certain amount of courage to persevere knowing that (at least) 81% of your MPs want you gone. How the opposition will function with this rather "odd" shadow cabinet will be very interesting. I would never doubt Corbyn's commitment to what he believes. Corbyn and McDonnell and the rest have spent 40 years being defeated and mocked. Now they have won, they aren't going to let go. Thinking he'd quit was always wrong.

2. I think they gave it as good a go as it deserved. I agree with that most hated group: the vast majority of Labour Mps. They aren't going to give it another go, the 172 will now take the Cooper option (which is what I would have done too).
And winning their own seats for the last 30+ and 19 years respectively. Yes, they've never won en election . I'm also sure they realise that there is a much better chance of enacting the policies they believe in, is to win with Labour. To suggest otherwise is downright insulting to people who think that Governments should be less beholden to big business and more concerned with protecting the most vulnerable in society and helping people improve themselves.

Tell you what Hugo, if you hate the Tories so much (and I haven't seen much evidence to be honest), why don't you turn your energies to fighting them, instead of the party you claim to love?

And the 172? It does appear that some of them regret resigning.

I don't think it is all that tough for Labour to win in Islington North.

As Blair showed over Iraq, believing things in good faith is not enough. So, even if Corbyn and McDonnell do in good faith think they can win power, their mistake will cost the lives of millions dearly.

I don't love the Labour party. I could never love a party led by Corbyn and McDonnell (for reasons that are well known). I left in September 2015. Who I vote for now depends on the candidate. i won't be voting Tory, FWIIW.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 8:44 pm

End of the £3 supporter...

Luke Akehurst
‏@lukeakehurst

Registered supporters will cost £25, be open for 2 days and there will be a 6 month freeze date for members voting.

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ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 8:44 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Tell you what I'll be more careful with who I vote for in the NEC this year. It's felt like a complete waste of time in recent years.

And with a secret ballot you don't know who did the right thing. And how can you truly believe what any of them say? They say he won by four votes....So who were they? I was reading there are six who lean to the left on the ballot. Normally I try to go for a mix, but not keen on doing that this time.

Did hear Ken Livingstone is standing as an independent?

Tizme1 · Post by **Tizme1** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 8:46 pm

I'd like to invite all disillusioned Labour party members to join the Greens. Before I do though, can I just check - Hugo, you don't live in Watford do you?

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 8:46 pm

refitman wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:Well, critics can't have it both ways. Was it a longterm dastardly conspiracy, or an ill co-ordinated spontaneous uprising?

How could they have had him gone? What else are you suggesting they did/do?

FWIIW I too think it was largely spontaneous as a result of the EU referendum. Most Labour MPs rblamed Corbyn for his part in the result. Justifiably in my view. And wanted a pro-EU leader.
The evidence is that they have been planning this since he was elected, only to find he kept being successful (Oldham for example). They didn't exactly hide their intention to try to get rid of him, when they tried to set up a "let's get Corbyn" group BEFORE HE WAS EVEN ELECTED!

It has been an almighty clusterfuck that has, to my mind, proved that the likes of Benn and the other should never, ever, be in charge of the Labour party.

When did they get behind him? When did they publicly support him? Fucking Benn, getting an ovation from the Tories for his Syria speech. Dick of the highest order.

Who is the 'they'? Watson? Eagle? Smith?

What is the evidence for this longterm conspiracy by the 172 members of the PLP?

As for Benn, that really depends on your view of intervening in Syria, which is another big and difficult question. I didn't approve of the Iraq War (because it was unlawful) but did approve of intervening in Syria (where it was lawful).

if interested in legality

https://spinninghugo.wordpress.com/2015 ... -in-syria/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;