Wednesday 13th July 2016

Post by **refitman** » Wed 13 Jul, 2016 7:09 am

Morning all.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Wed 13 Jul, 2016 7:40 am

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... cal-system" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Billionaires bought Brexit – they are controlling our venal political system

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 13 Jul, 2016 7:55 am

Bollox

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 13 Jul, 2016 7:57 am

Bollox 2 the extended version.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 13 Jul, 2016 7:59 am

Morning.

Margaret Hodge was on Radio 4 stirring things with a very long spoon, complaining about thugs and bullies. Lots of accusations, very little proof. Not very helpful, just more oil on the troubled waters.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 13 Jul, 2016 8:08 am

Not sure anyone will be surprised:

''Theresa May's husband is a senior executive at a $1.4trillion investment fund that profits from tax avoiding companies.''

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 33231.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 13 Jul, 2016 8:32 am

Morning

I enjoyed this fairly accurate reflection of Cameron's time as PM

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... n-promises" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

the-guardian-view-on-david-cameron-a-prime-minister-of-broken-promises

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 13 Jul, 2016 8:37 am

Good morfternoon.

Please not Priti Patel . . . .

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 13 Jul, 2016 8:38 am

Let me be clear, I in no way condone anyone sending threatening or obscene emails to anyone.
But surely Hodge is being naive to actually post her email address so prominently on her Twitter account ? How much easier does it need to be to insure some nutter emails you abuse ?

That is not intended to be victim blaming, just suggesting that using a bit of caution during such volatile times might be sensible.

I've checked a few other MP's twitter account home pages. Some give their website address, or other contact info. but not email addresses.

Twitter is the natural home of the angry, boozed and spliffed up idiot. Make it easy for them to abuse you, and they will sadly. I can guarantee if I put my email address out there easily accessed by any Twitter troll I'd get abuse or nasty comments in my inbox.

Edited to remove pic, wanted to show Hodge's Twitter page but only a pic of her appeared.

https://twitter.com/margarethodge" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 13 Jul, 2016 8:46 am

PorFavor wrote:Good morfternoon.

Please not Priti Patel . . . .

I fear so.

nickyinnorfolk · Post by **nickyinnorfolk** » Wed 13 Jul, 2016 9:20 am

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Morning

I enjoyed this fairly accurate reflection of Cameron's time as PM

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... n-promises" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

the-guardian-view-on-david-cameron-a-prime-minister-of-broken-promises

The comments are good. I just wish 'excathedra' could have been a bit more candid. Intriguing.

A liar, a cad and an utter fool. He achieved little but pain, despair, misery and vast amounts of debt and financial burdens for tens of millions. Add in his kicking of the disabled and his panic at an incident which, if known, would bring down his government a few years ago and you have a PM who wasn't fit to clean boots.

JohnSoutter1955 excathedra 11h ago
What is this incident, pray tell?

excathedra JohnSoutter1955 11h ago
I'd only get moderated. Suffice to say a member of the Met let me know.

aethyrsprite excathedra 8h ago
You must tell now. Make it vague and general, but you cannot stop here.
Is it a crime, a scandal, gross negligence?

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 13 Jul, 2016 9:31 am

Last night Labour’s national executive committee decided that Jeremy Corbyn would be allowed to take part in the Labour leadership contest without having to get nominated by 51 MPs or MEPs, like his opponents. But it also decided that party members will not be able to vote in the contest as party members unless they joined more than six months ago. (Instead they will have to pay £25 to become a registered supporter if they want to have a vote, but there will only be a two-day window during which they can apply.) (Politics Live, Guardian - my emphasis)

How will that work? Does that mean that applicants need credit\debit cards and internet access?

If they're going to do it, they should do it fairly.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 13 Jul, 2016 9:36 am

Morning all.

School later so no library - but watching the Edu Select Committee. First batch of people will be "MATs are great!", the second "Hmm..well..."

I guess that Cameron is doing PMQs so that arselicking backbenchers can ask questions like "Would the Prime Minister like to say how wonder he has been?" "Why, yes I would!"

nickyinnorfolk · Post by **nickyinnorfolk** » Wed 13 Jul, 2016 9:46 am

I have to admit to sitting on the fence regarding the civil war within Labour. I didn't vote for Corbyn but I had thought he was doing ok and he was evidently a person of integrity.

On the other hand I can see why the PLP are so frustrated with him. A friend of my husband is on the periphery of the PLP (he's an election agent as well as head of a Labour group in local government). He's been saying in confidence for some time that MPs have bitterly complained that Corbyn's office don't know what they're doing. The Brexit vote was the last straw, although it wasn't fair to lay so much blame at Corbyn's door. Ultimately their beef with him is about competence, not whether he's too left wing. They just want Labour to be a credible party, not a protest movement who have no power to change things for the people who need them most.

In the meantime, the HuffPost reports that

Jeremy Corbyn celebrated at a rally of hundreds of supporters on Tuesday evening, after he was given the automatic right to defend his position as Labour leader without having to be nominated by MPs.

Shadow chancellor John McDonnell used the event to mock the “fucking useless” Labour MPs who had hoped to oust Corbyn.

Mark Serwotka, general secretary of the Public and Commercial Services Union who hosted the rally for hundreds of people in Kentish Town, north London, told Tony Blair “fuck you” and added Neil Kinnock was a “disgrace” to Wales.

David Ward, the general secretary of the Communication Workers’ Union (CWU), said some Labour MPs were “bloody Tories” who should join Theresa May’s new Conservative cabinet.

Matt Wrack, the general secretary of the Fire Brigades Union (FBU), said former shadow cabinet ministers who had quit Corbyn’s frontbench had shown themselves to want “lying dishonest leaders with no values”.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/j ... _hp_ref=uk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It's worth noting that Dave Ward, when JC was a candidate for the leadership, actually said that the other candidates were too focussed on 'winning elections' (on a radio interview I heard). What the hell does he think a Labour leader should do?

Serwotka has claimed that Gordon Brown was the 'worst PM in history' in the run up to the 2010 election. Presumably he remembered Thatcher and Major but he thought they weren't quite as bad. He also told PCS members that it made no difference if they voted Tory or Labour, something he apparently repeated in 2015. So what's that all about?

mbc1955 · Post by **mbc1955** » Wed 13 Jul, 2016 9:49 am

Having voluntarily removed myself from the board last night, I have no wish to restart any conflagrations. Indeed, so far as I am able, I intend not to respond to SpinningHugo at all in future.

However, I do agree with ephemerid that Hugo is nothing but a troll. He is no different from a Manchester United supporter who insists on posting about Manchester United on a Liverpool fan forum.

And that (I hope) is my last word on the matter.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 13 Jul, 2016 9:50 am

Well...

Nick Timothy leaves New Schools Network for Number 10 role

http://schoolsweek.co.uk/nick-timothy-l ... r-10-role/

Theresa May’s leadership campaign manager Nick Timothy has been released from his director role at the New Schools Network to take up a post at Number 10, it has been announced today.

Trustees of the government-funded charity, which promotes and helps set up free schools, have released Timothy from his post with immediate effect.

Timothy said: “It has been a great privilege to see first-hand the extraordinary hard work of free school applicants who work so tirelessly to improve education in their communities.

“I have every confidence that the free school programme will continue to grow and flourish, ably assisted by the brilliant team at New Schools Network.”

Close it down - it's simply a Tory front group.

Three directors so far - 2 now in No 10, 1 in the Lords as Tory peer.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 13 Jul, 2016 9:53 am

Did you see extankie's suggestion of friend/foe thing where you can choose which posts you can s

Tonibel · Post by **Tonibel** » Wed 13 Jul, 2016 9:56 am

nickyinnorfolk wrote:I have to admit to sitting on the fence regarding the civil war within Labour. I didn't vote for Corbyn but I had thought he was doing ok and he was evidently a person of integrity.

On the other hand I can see why the PLP are so frustrated with him. A friend of my husband is on the periphery of the PLP (he's an election agent as well as head of a Labour group in local government). He's been saying in confidence for some time that MPs have bitterly complained that Corbyn's office don't know what they're doing. The Brexit vote was the last straw, although it wasn't fair to lay so much blame at Corbyn's door. Ultimately their beef with him is about competence, not whether he's too left wing. They just want Labour to be a credible party, not a protest movement who have no power to change things for the people who need them most.

In the meantime, the HuffPost reports that

Jeremy Corbyn celebrated at a rally of hundreds of supporters on Tuesday evening, after he was given the automatic right to defend his position as Labour leader without having to be nominated by MPs.

Shadow chancellor John McDonnell used the event to mock the “fucking useless” Labour MPs who had hoped to oust Corbyn.

Mark Serwotka, general secretary of the Public and Commercial Services Union who hosted the rally for hundreds of people in Kentish Town, north London, told Tony Blair “fuck you” and added Neil Kinnock was a “disgrace” to Wales.

David Ward, the general secretary of the Communication Workers’ Union (CWU), said some Labour MPs were “bloody Tories” who should join Theresa May’s new Conservative cabinet.

Matt Wrack, the general secretary of the Fire Brigades Union (FBU), said former shadow cabinet ministers who had quit Corbyn’s frontbench had shown themselves to want “lying dishonest leaders with no values”.
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/j ... _hp_ref=uk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It's worth noting that Dave Ward, when JC was a candidate for the leadership, actually said that the other candidates were too focussed on 'winning elections' (on a radio interview I heard). What the hell does he think a Labour leader should do?

Serwotka has claimed that Gordon Brown was the 'worst PM in history' in the run up to the 2010 election. Presumably he remembered Thatcher and Major but he thought they weren't quite as bad. He also told PCS members that it made no difference if they voted Tory or Labour, something he apparently repeated in 2015. So what's that all about?

Seeing the pathetic way this coup has been handled,it is clear the incompetence is not all on one side.

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Wed 13 Jul, 2016 10:01 am

PorFavor wrote:
Last night Labour’s national executive committee decided that Jeremy Corbyn would be allowed to take part in the Labour leadership contest without having to get nominated by 51 MPs or MEPs, like his opponents. But it also decided that party members will not be able to vote in the contest as party members unless they joined more than six months ago. (Instead they will have to pay £25 to become a registered supporter if they want to have a vote, but there will only be a two-day window during which they can apply.) (Politics Live, Guardian - my emphasis)
How will that work? Does that mean that applicants need credit\debit cards and internet access?

If they're going to do it, they should do it fairly.

Or one could join Unite Union as Community member for 50p per week before 8th August & you can then vote in Labour Leadership Election.

The NEC decision to exlude people looks likely to be open to legal challenge btw

: CnMxXU6WIAEIHP0.jpg (44.53 KiB) Viewed 9715 times

Rebecca · Post by **Rebecca** » Wed 13 Jul, 2016 10:06 am

nickyinnorfolk wrote:I have to admit to sitting on the fence regarding the civil war within Labour. I didn't vote for Corbyn but I had thought he was doing ok and he was evidently a person of integrity.

On the other hand I can see why the PLP are so frustrated with him. A friend of my husband is on the periphery of the PLP (he's an election agent as well as head of a Labour group in local government). He's been saying in confidence for some time that MPs have bitterly complained that Corbyn's office don't know what they're doing. The Brexit vote was the last straw, although it wasn't fair to lay so much blame at Corbyn's door. Ultimately their beef with him is about competence, not whether he's too left wing. They just want Labour to be a credible party, not a protest movement who have no power to change things for the people who need them most.

In the meantime, the HuffPost reports that

Jeremy Corbyn celebrated at a rally of hundreds of supporters on Tuesday evening, after he was given the automatic right to defend his position as Labour leader without having to be nominated by MPs.

Shadow chancellor John McDonnell used the event to mock the “fucking useless” Labour MPs who had hoped to oust Corbyn.

Mark Serwotka, general secretary of the Public and Commercial Services Union who hosted the rally for hundreds of people in Kentish Town, north London, told Tony Blair “fuck you” and added Neil Kinnock was a “disgrace” to Wales.

David Ward, the general secretary of the Communication Workers’ Union (CWU), said some Labour MPs were “bloody Tories” who should join Theresa May’s new Conservative cabinet.

Matt Wrack, the general secretary of the Fire Brigades Union (FBU), said former shadow cabinet ministers who had quit Corbyn’s frontbench had shown themselves to want “lying dishonest leaders with no values”.
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/j ... _hp_ref=uk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It's worth noting that Dave Ward, when JC was a candidate for the leadership, actually said that the other candidates were too focussed on 'winning elections' (on a radio interview I heard). What the hell does he think a Labour leader should do?

Serwotka has claimed that Gordon Brown was the 'worst PM in history' in the run up to the 2010 election. Presumably he remembered Thatcher and Major but he thought they weren't quite as bad. He also told PCS members that it made no difference if they voted Tory or Labour, something he apparently repeated in 2015. So what's that all about?

Two thoughts here,possibly.
Jeremy Corbyn has never had a front bench position,whilst some of the PLP had previously held shad cabinet or even govt minister posts.Instead of a)refusing shadow cabinet posts and b)mouthing off to the press at every conceivable opportunity,let alone 3)plotting and planning coups,they really needed to offer support and just get behind the new leadership.
That's how a party is electable,by being united and positive.
Look at the SNP,even the Tories,they show a united front and don't wash their dirty linen in front of LK.
If the public is constantly fed a diet of how useless a leader is,and how much his MPs want rid of him,they will not view the party as electable.
This coup hasn't really convinced anybody of the competence and good governance of the Labour Party,look how Labour polling figures have dropped since the plp kicked off with this shady business.
How anyone can blame all of this on Jeremy Corbyn is 100% beyond me.

Just to add,if anyone here has been a nurse,remember what it was like every time a new batch of junior drs arrived.
The experienced ward nurses steered them in the right direction,explained which drugs were needed etc etc.No good nurse started telling all the patients how useless the drs were,they presented a united healthcare team.After a few weeks,the drs took off,having gained confidence and knowing someone had their back.
It's called teamwork.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 13 Jul, 2016 10:07 am

The change in allowing people to vote just seems another symptom of the state the party is in.

It just creates more bad feeling, potentially more problems particularly if the website crashes during the sign up period.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Wed 13 Jul, 2016 10:08 am

PorFavor wrote:
Last night Labour’s national executive committee decided that Jeremy Corbyn would be allowed to take part in the Labour leadership contest without having to get nominated by 51 MPs or MEPs, like his opponents. But it also decided that party members will not be able to vote in the contest as party members unless they joined more than six months ago. (Instead they will have to pay £25 to become a registered supporter if they want to have a vote, but there will only be a two-day window during which they can apply.) (Politics Live, Guardian - my emphasis)
How will that work? Does that mean that applicants need credit\debit cards and internet access?

If they're going to do it, they should do it fairly.

They should do it fairly, Por, but they're not.

If a person joined the party after February, they cannot vote - despite this statement on the membership website: "As a member, you'll be a key part of the team. You'll be eligible to vote in leadership elections.....etc."
That person could have been paying subs for six months but not be allowed to vote unless they manage to pay £25 within the 2-day period specified - for which they would have to have the facilities you describe.

The 130,000 people who have joined since Brexit will not have a vote, despite being assured they would when they applied. People who have joined within the last six months won't either.
Labour's coffers have been swelled by an estimated £4 Million thanks to the more recent members - who now can't vote despite what the rules were when they joined the party.

For those who joined to support either side in this, it is not fair. People who joined specifically to support Corbyn will be cheated, and people who joined specifically to support "Saving Labour" will be cheated.
Angela Eagle's pleas for people to sign up their friends and relations are now a waste of time; Momentum's push to get more people to join Labour is also a waste of time; and people who just decided, without any influence from either camp, that they wanted to join to support a more left-wing Labour Party, will be denied a vote on its leader.

The membership, as it was for the last leadership contest, will have changed some by February, but it has changed more since then.
I can't find any data to show whether the more recent joiners support a particular side.
Last time, there were 292,505 full members, 147,134 affiliated members, (439,639 in total) and 110,827 registered supporters. Now, there are about 515,000 full members and affiliates, 100,000 or so who are recent joiners.

Assuming that those allowed to vote this time are pretty much the same as last time given the newly-minted NEC decision, Corbyn is likely to win again - unless the members have been so impressed with the PLP's arguments about Corbyn's uselessness that they vote against him.
What really annoys me about this is that the registered supporters have to find an extra £25 and get their cash sent within a 2-day window - so that knocks out people who are very poor, who don't have credit/debit cards, or who have no internet access. The only way around that is to join an affiliated union now - and that may not be possible for many.

It's a shambles - and when we remember the farce last time of exclusions, helpline and website breakdowns, and delays in the processing of forms etc. which led to many votes going missing or not being counted at all, I can't see this occasion being any better.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Wed 13 Jul, 2016 10:10 am

mbc1955 wrote:Having voluntarily removed myself from the board last night, I have no wish to restart any conflagrations. Indeed, so far as I am able, I intend not to respond to SpinningHugo at all in future.

However, I do agree with ephemerid that Hugo is nothing but a troll. He is no different from a Manchester United supporter who insists on posting about Manchester United on a Liverpool fan forum.

And that (I hope) is my last word on the matter.

Thank you.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 13 Jul, 2016 10:10 am

For nerds who are interested in the NEC

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/j ... 77sojvpldi" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

JustMom · Post by **JustMom** » Wed 13 Jul, 2016 10:11 am

I'm always a bit slow in working things out,but I didn't realise that these sort of shenanigans were going on with every leader that's not tony blair.
my opinion is get rid of them fast,there will always be unrest with them in the party.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Wed 13 Jul, 2016 10:12 am

HindleA wrote:Did you see extankie's suggestion of friend/foe thing where you can choose which posts you can see

It works.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Wed 13 Jul, 2016 10:12 am

HindleA wrote:Did you see extankie's suggestion of friend/foe thing where you can choose which posts you can s

I have tried that - but then you lose the thread a bit, plus replies often have the original post in them.

But thank you, and extankie, for the reminder.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Wed 13 Jul, 2016 10:16 am

ephemerid wrote:
HindleA wrote:Did you see extankie's suggestion of friend/foe thing where you can choose which posts you can s
I have tried that - but then you lose the thread a bit, plus replies often have the original post in them.

But thank you, and extankie, for the reminder.

It should be less troublesome as fewer people respond to him.

Rebecca · Post by **Rebecca** » Wed 13 Jul, 2016 10:16 am

TobyLatimer wrote:
PorFavor wrote:
Last night Labour’s national executive committee decided that Jeremy Corbyn would be allowed to take part in the Labour leadership contest without having to get nominated by 51 MPs or MEPs, like his opponents. But it also decided that party members will not be able to vote in the contest as party members unless they joined more than six months ago. (Instead they will have to pay £25 to become a registered supporter if they want to have a vote, but there will only be a two-day window during which they can apply.) (Politics Live, Guardian - my emphasis)
How will that work? Does that mean that applicants need credit\debit cards and internet access?

If they're going to do it, they should do it fairly.

Or one could join Unite Union as Community member for 50p per week before 8th August & you can then vote in Labour Leadership Election.

The NEC decision to exlude people looks likely to be open to legal challenge btw
CnMxXU6WIAEIHP0.jpg

At least 3 prominent Labour MPs have been asking people to join for the specific purpose of voting down Corbyn.
Having taken their money,surely it is somehow illegal to turn around now and say they can't vote,unless they offer a refund?

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 13 Jul, 2016 10:21 am

You can use friend or foe to not see those thag annoh you or not as per extankie's suggestion,which is proving vrhar d at the mmebt because I Kantsee a f####ing thing I wrotte.
N.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Wed 13 Jul, 2016 10:23 am

Rebecca wrote:
(My edit)

Two thoughts here,possibly.
Jeremy Corbyn has never had a front bench position,whilst some of the PLP had previously held shad cabinet or even govt minister posts.Instead of a)refusing shadow cabinet posts and b)mouthing off to the press at every conceivable opportunity,let alone 3)plotting and planning coups,they really needed to offer support and just get behind the new leadership.
That's how a party is electable,by being united and positive.
Look at the SNP,even the Tories,they show a united front and don't wash their dirty linen in front of LK.
If the public is constantly fed a diet of how useless a leader is,and how much his MPs want rid of him,they will not view the party as electable.
This coup hasn't really convinced anybody of the competence and good governance of the Labour Party,look how Labour polling figures have dropped since the plp kicked off with this shady business.
How anyone can blame all of this on Jeremy Corbyn is 100% beyond me.

Just to add,if anyone here has been a nurse,remember what it was like every time a new batch of junior drs arrived.
The experienced ward nurses steered them in the right direction,explained which drugs were needed etc etc.No good nurse started telling all the patients how useless the drs were,they presented a united healthcare team.After a few weeks,the drs took off,having gained confidence and knowing someone had their back.
It's called teamwork.

God! I remember the new junior doctors thing. We'd have a few wobbly weeks in A&E before they got the hang of things...
They were either scared shitless or over-confident, but they did a fantastic job once they'd settled down.
And no, the patients were never ever told that the doc sorting them out had zero experience.....

You are right about Corbyn's "failures" - it was a self-fulfilling prophecy that his cabinet would have problems.
People with experience and ability flounced off to the back benches, some refused posts when they were offered, and within weeks Umunna and Co had started that little band of merry dissenters called "the Resistance".

The story could have been so different if only they'd sat down and thrashed out a unified opposition to the Tories.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 13 Jul, 2016 10:27 am

There's some absolutely corking admissions coming out of this session.

TES ‏@tes 2m2 minutes ago

On new research, Heller from @ArkSchools agrees that converter academies since 2010 have not been as successful as they had hoped #edselctte

and

Tony Parkin
‏@tonyparkin

Boom. Lucy Heller agrees with @IanMearnsMP that use of 'LA-controlled' schools is wrong, and that MATs have more control than LAs #edselctte

A bit of honesty from ministers would be useful.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Wed 13 Jul, 2016 10:30 am

I'm sure rr2 would be linking this for us if she was here, which I wish she was.

Badger cull expansion 'flies in face of scientific evidence'
Experts call on new prime minister Theresa May to halt ‘failed’ policy, calling it ‘risky, costly, and inhumane’
https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... are_btn_tw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Wed 13 Jul, 2016 10:35 am

What might David Cameron do next? The Spectator’s Isabel Hardman writes that the outgoing prime minister sees John Major as a better model for life after Downing Street than Tony Blair

She adds: “He might, though, choose to pursue his interest in life chances and social mobility that he never got a chance to fulfil as Prime Minister because of his early exit. So tomorrow won’t be the end for Cameron – just the start of another type of public service.”

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Wed 13 Jul, 2016 10:46 am

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 32936.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
German domination 'provokes resentment' in the Eurozone, says professor
One of the world's most respected intellectuals has warned that right-wing populism in the European Union will continue to grow unless there is a "deepening of European co-operation."

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 13 Jul, 2016 10:57 am

ephemerid wrote:
PorFavor wrote:
Last night Labour’s national executive committee decided that Jeremy Corbyn would be allowed to take part in the Labour leadership contest without having to get nominated by 51 MPs or MEPs, like his opponents. But it also decided that party members will not be able to vote in the contest as party members unless they joined more than six months ago. (Instead they will have to pay £25 to become a registered supporter if they want to have a vote, but there will only be a two-day window during which they can apply.) (Politics Live, Guardian - my emphasis)
How will that work? Does that mean that applicants need credit\debit cards and internet access?

If they're going to do it, they should do it fairly.

They should do it fairly, Por, but they're not.

If a person joined the party after February, they cannot vote - despite this statement on the membership website: "As a member, you'll be a key part of the team. You'll be eligible to vote in leadership elections.....etc."
That person could have been paying subs for six months but not be allowed to vote unless they manage to pay £25 within the 2-day period specified - for which they would have to have the facilities you describe.

The 130,000 people who have joined since Brexit will not have a vote, despite being assured they would when they applied. People who have joined within the last six months won't either.
Labour's coffers have been swelled by an estimated £4 Million thanks to the more recent members - who now can't vote despite what the rules were when they joined the party.

For those who joined to support either side in this, it is not fair. People who joined specifically to support Corbyn will be cheated, and people who joined specifically to support "Saving Labour" will be cheated.
Angela Eagle's pleas for people to sign up their friends and relations are now a waste of time; Momentum's push to get more people to join Labour is also a waste of time; and people who just decided, without any influence from either camp, that they wanted to join to support a more left-wing Labour Party, will be denied a vote on its leader.

The membership, as it was for the last leadership contest, will have changed some by February, but it has changed more since then.
I can't find any data to show whether the more recent joiners support a particular side.
Last time, there were 292,505 full members, 147,134 affiliated members, (439,639 in total) and 110,827 registered supporters. Now, there are about 515,000 full members and affiliates, 100,000 or so who are recent joiners.

Assuming that those allowed to vote this time are pretty much the same as last time given the newly-minted NEC decision, Corbyn is likely to win again - unless the members have been so impressed with the PLP's arguments about Corbyn's uselessness that they vote against him.
What really annoys me about this is that the registered supporters have to find an extra £25 and get their cash sent within a 2-day window - so that knocks out people who are very poor, who don't have credit/debit cards, or who have no internet access. The only way around that is to join an affiliated union now - and that may not be possible for many.

It's a shambles - and when we remember the farce last time of exclusions, helpline and website breakdowns, and delays in the processing of forms etc. which led to many votes going missing or not being counted at all, I can't see this occasion being any better.

Thanks for your response.

My take is that we should stop the clock(ish) and see whether or not those people who voted for Jeremy Corbyn last time (or joined in the interim - subject to the six month cut-off ) still support him (EU vote outcome notwithstanding). The new arrangements are not fair to anyone on either side and should be given a swerve. More division, rows, and bitterness will only be the result if they are not.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 13 Jul, 2016 11:00 am

Owen Smith now very short odds on being next Labour leader, odds on with some bookies

http://www.oddschecker.com/politics/bri ... our-leader" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I can't see it myself.

mbc1955 · Post by **mbc1955** » Wed 13 Jul, 2016 11:03 am

PorFavor wrote:
ephemerid wrote:
PorFavor wrote: How will that work? Does that mean that applicants need credit\debit cards and internet access?

If they're going to do it, they should do it fairly.

They should do it fairly, Por, but they're not.

If a person joined the party after February, they cannot vote - despite this statement on the membership website: "As a member, you'll be a key part of the team. You'll be eligible to vote in leadership elections.....etc."
That person could have been paying subs for six months but not be allowed to vote unless they manage to pay £25 within the 2-day period specified - for which they would have to have the facilities you describe.

The 130,000 people who have joined since Brexit will not have a vote, despite being assured they would when they applied. People who have joined within the last six months won't either.
Labour's coffers have been swelled by an estimated £4 Million thanks to the more recent members - who now can't vote despite what the rules were when they joined the party.

For those who joined to support either side in this, it is not fair. People who joined specifically to support Corbyn will be cheated, and people who joined specifically to support "Saving Labour" will be cheated.
Angela Eagle's pleas for people to sign up their friends and relations are now a waste of time; Momentum's push to get more people to join Labour is also a waste of time; and people who just decided, without any influence from either camp, that they wanted to join to support a more left-wing Labour Party, will be denied a vote on its leader.

The membership, as it was for the last leadership contest, will have changed some by February, but it has changed more since then.
I can't find any data to show whether the more recent joiners support a particular side.
Last time, there were 292,505 full members, 147,134 affiliated members, (439,639 in total) and 110,827 registered supporters. Now, there are about 515,000 full members and affiliates, 100,000 or so who are recent joiners.

Assuming that those allowed to vote this time are pretty much the same as last time given the newly-minted NEC decision, Corbyn is likely to win again - unless the members have been so impressed with the PLP's arguments about Corbyn's uselessness that they vote against him.
What really annoys me about this is that the registered supporters have to find an extra £25 and get their cash sent within a 2-day window - so that knocks out people who are very poor, who don't have credit/debit cards, or who have no internet access. The only way around that is to join an affiliated union now - and that may not be possible for many.

It's a shambles - and when we remember the farce last time of exclusions, helpline and website breakdowns, and delays in the processing of forms etc. which led to many votes going missing or not being counted at all, I can't see this occasion being any better.

Thanks for your response.

My take is that we should stop the clock(ish) and see whether or not those people who voted for Jeremy Corbyn last time (or joined in the interim - subject to the six month cut-off ) still support him (EU vote outcome notwithstanding). The new arrangements are not fair to anyone on either side and should be given a swerve. More division, rows, and bitterness will only be the result if they are not.

Basically, the PLP simply can't play straight. They have turned into the Tory party.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Wed 13 Jul, 2016 11:05 am

HindleA wrote:Bollox 2 the extended version.

I thought the original was about right.

Pithy, but accurate. Whatever one's point of view.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 13 Jul, 2016 11:08 am

yahyah wrote:The change in allowing people to vote just seems another symptom of the state the party is in.

It just creates more bad feeling, potentially more problems particularly if the website crashes during the sign up period.

Though it seems the "fixers" forgot about the affiliates section when it came to voting in this contest.

This is actually a good opportunity to increase the turnout in that area - it was somewhat disappointing a year ago.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 13 Jul, 2016 11:20 am

gilsey wrote:
HindleA wrote:Did you see extankie's suggestion of friend/foe thing where you can choose which posts you can see
It works.

As a matter of interest how did the two e's appear in the quote at the end of my witty perfectly executed joke which absolutely nobody got,bastards,last warning or it is foemageddon and no mistake.

minch · Post by **minch** » Wed 13 Jul, 2016 11:20 am

All talk of a legal challenge to Corbyn being on the ballot seem to have vanished.
This is probably because of which members can vote.
I now wonder if (now we have 3 candidates) they will drop the restrictions (before there is a court case on this) and allow all members to vote.
I can hardly see Eagle and Smith turning round and then trying to get Corbyn off the ballot again without looking very silly and lacking bottle.

frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Wed 13 Jul, 2016 11:22 am

ephemerid wrote:
HindleA wrote:Bollox 2 the extended version.
I thought the original was about right.

Pithy, but accurate. Whatever one's point of view.

Currently repeating on air

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07jyrdn" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Corbyn Story 1/3

Informative on so recent a history , and entertaining too

edit -- very poor use of quotes by Clive Lewis, 21 minutes in (out of 28) on the occasion of JC's first speech to the PLP .

Initially it appeared to me at least that JC is "openly hostile, shouting", when it's the lovely people of the PLP doing that, at his very first appearance !

They began very early .

JustMom · Post by **JustMom** » Wed 13 Jul, 2016 11:31 am

It's just been on the news that corbyn supporters are flocking to join the union.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Wed 13 Jul, 2016 11:36 am

Given the policies May has been mooting since 'winning' her election, some Labour MPs wouldn't be welcome in her cabinet because they're too right wing.

Wish I was actually joking...

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 13 Jul, 2016 11:40 am

SpinningHugo wrote:Owen Smith now very short odds on being next Labour leader, odds on with some bookies

http://www.oddschecker.com/politics/bri ... our-leader" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I can't see it myself.

Those odds are hard to believe, but he has more chance than Eagle if he pitches things right.

minch · Post by **minch** » Wed 13 Jul, 2016 11:45 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:Owen Smith now very short odds on being next Labour leader, odds on with some bookies

http://www.oddschecker.com/politics/bri ... our-leader" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I can't see it myself.
Those odds are hard to believe, but he has more chance than Eagle if he pitches things right.

Are they not the odds for the person AFTER JC (not the result of this ballot as such)

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 13 Jul, 2016 11:47 am

minch wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:Owen Smith now very short odds on being next Labour leader, odds on with some bookies

http://www.oddschecker.com/politics/bri ... our-leader" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I can't see it myself.
Those odds are hard to believe, but he has more chance than Eagle if he pitches things right.
Are they not the odds for the person AFTER JC (not the result of this ballot as such)

That is right. It is just 'odds on next Labour leader'.

I can't see a market for the contest itself.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 13 Jul, 2016 11:50 am

Good-morning, everyone.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 13 Jul, 2016 12:07 pm

Anybody watching Dave's last ever PMQs, then?