Thursday 14th July 2016

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 8:16 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:
PorFavor wrote:Has Theresa May appointed ministers (particularly with regard to the EU) who she believes can do the job (out of concern for the UK she professes to hold so dear) or is she trying to cover her own back? I know which of the two options I lean towards.

Edited - typo
Boris, Fox, Davis, and Leadsom are in jobs directly affected by Brexit so it's a case of "You caused this, now deal with it"

Snag is they are incapable.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 8:17 pm

What is 'entryism'?

To me that can only apply to people who are not Labour supporters who join to try to cause trouble......Tories, SWP (all 20 of them) etc....

If it is just someone who has an ambition to change the political direction of a party through legitimate means then that is not the same.

If that definition is to be applied then Tony Blair was an entryist! And god knows what Shaun Woodward would have been classed as

If people who are more left wing than the current party join legitimately and vote/campaign to change the direction of the party then that is perfectly legitimate

For example, if Temulkar (sorry for taking your name in vain), remained a committed Green and joined Labour just to vote for Corbyn in order to prolong the split in Labour then I think he could be called an 'Entryist'.

If he left the Greens and joined Labour to vote for Corbyn as that is the direction he wants the party to go in then that is fine from my side...

I left Labour in 2005ish because of the direction labour was taking. I rejoined in 2010 specifically to ensure Miliband Major did not get in (I voted for his bro) and was pleased in what he was trying to do in general.....pity the traitorous bastards in the SC and PLP were briefing against him (hmmmm Corbyn's fault?). Was I an Entryist?

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 8:18 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
RogerOThornhill wrote:
PorFavor wrote:Has Theresa May appointed ministers (particularly with regard to the EU) who she believes can do the job (out of concern for the UK she professes to hold so dear) or is she trying to cover her own back? I know which of the two options I lean towards.

Edited - typo
Boris, Fox, Davis, and Leadsom are in jobs directly affected by Brexit so it's a case of "You caused this, now deal with it"
Snag is they are incapable.

No, that's fine - if it all goes a but wrong then May (Remainer) can say "See, told you it wouldn't work" and blame the Brexiters.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 8:19 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:
PorFavor wrote:Has Theresa May appointed ministers (particularly with regard to the EU) who she believes can do the job (out of concern for the UK she professes to hold so dear) or is she trying to cover her own back? I know which of the two options I lean towards.

Edited - typo
Boris, Fox, Davis, and Leadsom are in jobs directly affected by Brexit so it's a case of "You caused this, now deal with it"

They'll not deal effectively with anything. How long is their failure going to be allowed to continue before a change though?
It's going to be regular people paying the price of Tory government ineptitude, not Theresa May or any other Tory party MP.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 8:20 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
RogerOThornhill wrote:
PorFavor wrote:Has Theresa May appointed ministers (particularly with regard to the EU) who she believes can do the job (out of concern for the UK she professes to hold so dear) or is she trying to cover her own back? I know which of the two options I lean towards.

Edited - typo
Boris, Fox, Davis, and Leadsom are in jobs directly affected by Brexit so it's a case of "You caused this, now deal with it"
Snag is they are incapable.

Apologies, Ohso, I see you've got there before me.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 8:22 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:
RogerOThornhill wrote: Boris, Fox, Davis, and Leadsom are in jobs directly affected by Brexit so it's a case of "You caused this, now deal with it"
Snag is they are incapable.
No, that's fine - if it all goes a but wrong then May (Remainer) can say "See, told you it wouldn't work" and blame the Brexiters.

I am not convinced that May was a real Remainer...I think, she like Johnson, was playing the political game from the other side

She will throw it back at them and let them do the hard miles but I think she will take us out

People kept going on about Corbyn security voting Leave....but why do they never ask that question of May? Or ask Johnson if he voted 'Remain'.........I don't think Cameron was a convinced Remainer at all either...he just expected to be on the winning side

danesclose · Post by **danesclose** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 8:24 pm

JustMom wrote:
55DegreesNorth wrote:I've just been asked to vote for the NEC members, and the only one I recognised was Eddy Izzard. Anyone know anything about the rest?

I have an email with 6 of the leftwingers,momentum sent it.
I can send it you if you let me have your email.

Hi,
I've just sent you a PM. Would appreciate if you could forward the email to me

Thanks

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 8:25 pm

Agnes Poirier ‏@AgnesCPoirier 8m8 minutes ago

You might as well know that #BorisJohnson was booed today at French ambassador's #BastilleDay reception in London.His 'charm' left them cold

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 8:25 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:
PorFavor wrote:Has Theresa May appointed ministers (particularly with regard to the EU) who she believes can do the job (out of concern for the UK she professes to hold so dear) or is she trying to cover her own back? I know which of the two options I lean towards.

Edited - typo
Boris, Fox, Davis, and Leadsom are in jobs directly affected by Brexit so it's a case of "You caused this, now deal with it"

Well, yes - I appreciate that. And I can understand, from a purely human point of view, Theresa May's thinking that way. But does she believe they're the ones best placed to do the job? If not, then she's not acting in the best interests of the country. If it were just the "Out" voters who were going to be affected by any cock-ups then I'd (selfishly) say carry on - but we're all going to have to live with the outcome.

danesclose · Post by **danesclose** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 8:29 pm

Temulkar wrote:A neutron walks into a bar and orders a drink. He asks how much? 'For you?' says the barman. 'No charge!'

A Higgs boson walks into a Catholic church. "Get out!" shouts the priest. "Why?" replies the Higgs "You can't have mass without me".

I'll get my coat

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 8:30 pm

danesclose wrote:
Temulkar wrote:A neutron walks into a bar and orders a drink. He asks how much? 'For you?' says the barman. 'No charge!'
A Higgs boson walks into a Catholic church. "Get out!" shouts the priest. "Why?" replies the Higgs "You can't have mass without me".

I'll get my coat

Good idea

JustMom · Post by **JustMom** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 8:35 pm

danesclose wrote:
JustMom wrote:
55DegreesNorth wrote:I've just been asked to vote for the NEC members, and the only one I recognised was Eddy Izzard. Anyone know anything about the rest?

I have an email with 6 of the leftwingers,momentum sent it.
I can send it you if you let me have your email.
Hi,
I've just sent you a PM. Would appreciate if you could forward the email to me

Thanks

Sent it Dane

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 8:36 pm

Thousands of Post Office workers forced to take pension benefits cut

About half of 7,000-strong workforce to shift from final salary pension scheme to defined contribution scheme (Guardian)

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... ntribution

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 8:36 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:What is 'entryism'?

To me that can only apply to people who are not Labour supporters who join to try to cause trouble......Tories, SWP (all 20 of them) etc....

If it is just someone who has an ambition to change the political direction of a party through legitimate means then that is not the same.

If that definition is to be applied then Tony Blair was an entryist! And god knows what Shaun Woodward would have been classed as

If people who are more left wing than the current party join legitimately and vote/campaign to change the direction of the party then that is perfectly legitimate

For example, if Temulkar (sorry for taking your name in vain), remained a committed Green and joined Labour just to vote for Corbyn in order to prolong the split in Labour then I think he could be called an 'Entryist'.

If he left the Greens and joined Labour to vote for Corbyn as that is the direction he wants the party to go in then that is fine from my side...

I left Labour in 2005ish because of the direction labour was taking. I rejoined in 2010 specifically to ensure Miliband Major did not get in (I voted for his bro) and was pleased in what he was trying to do in general.....pity the traitorous bastards in the SC and PLP were briefing against him (hmmmm Corbyn's fault?). Was I an Entryist?

Oh I was going to do exactly thatbefore being declared a trot, but if corbyn wins this election - and he may v well not with all the gerrymandering - I will rejoin labour.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 8:37 pm

PorFavor wrote:
RogerOThornhill wrote:
PorFavor wrote:Has Theresa May appointed ministers (particularly with regard to the EU) who she believes can do the job (out of concern for the UK she professes to hold so dear) or is she trying to cover her own back? I know which of the two options I lean towards.

Edited - typo
Boris, Fox, Davis, and Leadsom are in jobs directly affected by Brexit so it's a case of "You caused this, now deal with it"
Well, yes - I appreciate that. And I can understand, from a purely human point of view, Theresa May's thinking that way. But does she believe they're the ones best placed to do the job? If not, then she's not acting in the best interests of the country. If it were just the "Out" voters who were going to be affected by any cock-ups then I'd (selfishly) say carry on - but we're all going to have to live with the outcome.

I doubt there's anyone capable enough. She probably picked the best of a bad bunch.

mbc1955 · Post by **mbc1955** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 8:39 pm

ohsocynical wrote:Jo Maugham QC ‏@JolyonMaugham 49m49 minutes ago

Pity the poor NEC. Hero (Corbyn on ballot) and Zero (resisting entryism) in a single meeting. Tough, tough gig.

On the other hand, they could have played fair and square. Pity? No chance.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 8:40 pm

citizenJA wrote:
RogerOThornhill wrote:
PorFavor wrote:Has Theresa May appointed ministers (particularly with regard to the EU) who she believes can do the job (out of concern for the UK she professes to hold so dear) or is she trying to cover her own back? I know which of the two options I lean towards.

Edited - typo
Boris, Fox, Davis, and Leadsom are in jobs directly affected by Brexit so it's a case of "You caused this, now deal with it"
They'll not deal effectively with anything. How long is their failure going to be allowed to continue before a change though?
It's going to be regular people paying the price of Tory government ineptitude, not Theresa May or any other Tory party MP.

However it happens change will only take place when a party (or group of parties) other than the Tory Party wins a general election and decides to exclude them from power.

Until that happens they have total freedom to be as inept as they want.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 8:41 pm

I'm constantly amazed at how little people know about education but pretend that they know an awful lot. Like this utter chump.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 8:42 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:
danesclose wrote:
Temulkar wrote:A neutron walks into a bar and orders a drink. He asks how much? 'For you?' says the barman. 'No charge!'
A Higgs boson walks into a Catholic church. "Get out!" shouts the priest. "Why?" replies the Higgs "You can't have mass without me".

I'll get my coat

Good idea

It was better than cuddly animals.....

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 8:46 pm

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
citizenJA wrote:
RogerOThornhill wrote: Boris, Fox, Davis, and Leadsom are in jobs directly affected by Brexit so it's a case of "You caused this, now deal with it"
They'll not deal effectively with anything. How long is their failure going to be allowed to continue before a change though?
It's going to be regular people paying the price of Tory government ineptitude, not Theresa May or any other Tory party MP.
However it happens change will only take place when a party (or group of parties) other than the Tory Party wins a general election and decides to exclude them from power.

Until that happens they have total freedom to be as inept as they want.

(my bold)

Tory government have the freedom to be inept until 2020 - that's apparently the earliest they can get the boot. Is there any other way Tories are made to go? Regardless of the status of other political parties, the legal fact remains they've got four more years. Unless, of course, their GE win in 2015 is declared unlawful or something.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 8:49 pm

What is the likelihood that if one of the Dynamic Duo wins against Corbyn due to all this gerrymandering that there will be another challenge next year...this time from the left?

There will be a whole lot of pissed off members who were not allowed to vote this time, and I would guess that someone like McDonnell or another could push the 51 votes close, especially if the local parties are in open revolt....and there could well be a different NEC next time

The only other option is if Smith wins (Eagle I think has been used and has done badly) and crawls to Corbyn and the left to keep them onside. Will be interesting to see what tone Smith uses in the campaign....

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 8:53 pm

danesclose wrote:
Temulkar wrote:A neutron walks into a bar and orders a drink. He asks how much? 'For you?' says the barman. 'No charge!'
A Higgs boson walks into a Catholic church. "Get out!" shouts the priest. "Why?" replies the Higgs "You can't have mass without me".

I'll get my coat

Not, "I'll get my boat"?

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 8:54 pm

citizenJA wrote:
TechnicalEphemera wrote:
citizenJA wrote: They'll not deal effectively with anything. How long is their failure going to be allowed to continue before a change though?
It's going to be regular people paying the price of Tory government ineptitude, not Theresa May or any other Tory party MP.
However it happens change will only take place when a party (or group of parties) other than the Tory Party wins a general election and decides to exclude them from power.

Until that happens they have total freedom to be as inept as they want.
(my bold)

Tory government have the freedom to be inept until 2020 - that's apparently the earliest they can get the boot. Is there any other way Tories are made to go? Regardless of the status of other political parties, the legal fact remains they've got four more years. Unless, of course, their GE win in 2015 is declared unlawful or something.

People are creating an alternate reality to the one I see......it is virtually impossible to force a Government out under the current law, and it is really not worth the pain for a Government to call a GE. People are acting here that if there was another leader May would be calling an election now and be crying herself to sleep....absolute rot and nonsense

The fact the Tories have slim majority is useful for forcing them to drop some of their legislation....and Labour have been very successful in doing that.... but it will not force a change in Government.....Major was in worst straits back in the day but it didn't lead to a change of Government

The GE was fought in 2015...and was lost....of course, Corbyn and the lefts fault as they were in control of party policy and Corbyn' face was never off the tv criticising the leader, never mind all that poison he was giving to the Sun!

There will be no election until 2020 and the sooner people realise that the better.....

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 8:55 pm

JonnyT1234 wrote:
danesclose wrote:
Temulkar wrote:A neutron walks into a bar and orders a drink. He asks how much? 'For you?' says the barman. 'No charge!'
A Higgs boson walks into a Catholic church. "Get out!" shouts the priest. "Why?" replies the Higgs "You can't have mass without me".

I'll get my coat
Not, "I'll get my boat"?

Does the boat have a bos'un?

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 8:57 pm

mbc1955 wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:Jo Maugham QC ‏@JolyonMaugham 49m49 minutes ago

Pity the poor NEC. Hero (Corbyn on ballot) and Zero (resisting entryism) in a single meeting. Tough, tough gig.
On the other hand, they could have played fair and square. Pity? No chance.

I think it was fair. The current Labour membership is made up of loads of people who voted Corbyn last time, plus the £3 brigade who subsequently converted to full members after he won. These people are committed to the party and many of them campaign for it. This electorate is more biased to the left than in 2015 because some center left Labour voters have left for various reasons.

75% of the PLP voted no confidence in Jeremy, polling (yes caveats apply) tells us a large majority of the electorate, a majority of Labour voters, and a significant majority of union members, would like him replaced.

If he cannot gain a majority from even his enhanced 2015 support base in the party why should he carry on? What is the point of creating an ever more extreme (by which I mean completely out of step with the voting population) constituency of electors?

Somebody asked earlier what defines an entryist. I would suggest somebody who doesn't care about electing a Labour Government in the 20xx (where xx is between 16 and 20) is an entryist.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 9:00 pm

danesclose wrote:
Temulkar wrote:A neutron walks into a bar and orders a drink. He asks how much? 'For you?' says the barman. 'No charge!'
A Higgs boson walks into a Catholic church. "Get out!" shouts the priest. "Why?" replies the Higgs "You can't have mass without me".

Hearing the disturbance, Mrs Doyle pops her head in and asks, "nice cup of tea?"

"No thank you" everyone mumbles.

"Oh, gluon, gluon, gluon" she says.

----

Sorry, I'm feeling quarky today.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 9:01 pm

So there are a number of entryists in the PLP then because there are a number of prominent ones who do not want to win an election with the current leader - never mind if he can, because by my reckoning with the boundary changes, no Scottish seats and the media hostile there is no indication any leader (particularly someone like Eagle) would win at all

Is there any polling that shows Labour ahead with either Eagle or Smith as leader?

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 9:01 pm

JonnyT1234 wrote:
danesclose wrote:
Temulkar wrote:A neutron walks into a bar and orders a drink. He asks how much? 'For you?' says the barman. 'No charge!'
A Higgs boson walks into a Catholic church. "Get out!" shouts the priest. "Why?" replies the Higgs "You can't have mass without me".
Hearing the disturbance, Mrs Doyle pops her head in and asks, "nice cup of tea?"

"No thank you" everyone mumbles.

"Oh, gluon, gluon, gluon" she says.

----

Sorry, I'm feeling quarky today.

I've just lepton the bad joke bandwagon.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 9:04 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:What is the likelihood that if one of the Dynamic Duo wins against Corbyn due to all this gerrymandering that there will be another challenge next year...this time from the left?

Zero.

The PLP will never again let Corbyn or one of his tiny group get on the ballot. Ever They'd need 50 nominations. With MPs and MEPs, they'd get 20.

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 9:04 pm

All this palarva over Brexit has pushed the police investigations into the over spending at the last general election away from the agenda. Don't forget that the Tories technically only have a 12 seat majority, a few by-elections in marginals could soon reduce that figure. Also the natural by-elections caused by deaths or retirements etc. I'm not sure what the protocol is for triggering a vote of no confidence in the government, as happened with Callaghan, but 12 seats or less looks rather flaky considering that the Brexit could all go belly up in the next couple of years.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 9:07 pm

Bus company staff told firm has shut down – via text

GHA Coaches notifies employees of redundancy by mobile phone, after going into administration, leaving many in
Welsh rural areas without transport links

More than 300 workers at a bus company in north Wales have been made redundant – by text message.

Keith Ottley, a 55 year old former GHA employee from Wrexham, told the Daily Post in North Wales: “It’s terrible.
I’ve been here 25 years and for someone to call you last night from outside the depot to say the company has gone
bust, it’s not nice.”

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... n-via-text" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Horrible news. I rely upon public transportation. The people relying on this bus service are up a tree.

Car or van availability [2011 Census]
No cars or vans in household (percent)
Wales______22.9%
UK________26.0%

http://www.constituencyexplorer.org.uk/ ... ailability" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 9:07 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:
citizenJA wrote:
TechnicalEphemera wrote: However it happens change will only take place when a party (or group of parties) other than the Tory Party wins a general election and decides to exclude them from power.

Until that happens they have total freedom to be as inept as they want.
(my bold)

Tory government have the freedom to be inept until 2020 - that's apparently the earliest they can get the boot. Is there any other way Tories are made to go? Regardless of the status of other political parties, the legal fact remains they've got four more years. Unless, of course, their GE win in 2015 is declared unlawful or something.

People are creating an alternate reality to the one I see......it is virtually impossible to force a Government out under the current law, and it is really not worth the pain for a Government to call a GE. People are acting here that if there was another leader May would be calling an election now and be crying herself to sleep....absolute rot and nonsense

The fact the Tories have slim majority is useful for forcing them to drop some of their legislation....and Labour have been very successful in doing that.... but it will not force a change in Government.....Major was in worst straits back in the day but it didn't lead to a change of Government

The GE was fought in 2015...and was lost....of course, Corbyn and the lefts fault as they were in control of party policy and Corbyn' face was never off the tv criticising the leader, never mind all that poison he was giving to the Sun!

There will be no election until 2020 and the sooner people realise that the better.....

It is trivially easy to hold an election prior to 2020. The process is as follows.

The government proposes a motion of no confidence in itself and loses.

An alternative government may now be formed. If it does not pass a vote of confidence in the house (which it wont) within 14 days a general election is automatically triggered. Prior to 2015 this step was problematic as an alt government was possible.

Major didn't trigger a change of government because he believed he would lose the subsequent election. May surely knows she will win and will only suffer like Major if something changes to alter that.

A November election, must be under consideration.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 9:09 pm

If Corbyn does lose I look forward to two things

A new NEC proposing mandatory reelection
The boundary changes leading to deselection of a number of the PLP - Wolves goes down to two seats so I can see Reynolds and McFadden at least getting the boot - especially McFadden who was parachuted in

It will be difficult to see Labour winning if the boundary changes are made but at least we may see the PLP post the next election changing........

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 9:12 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:
citizenJA wrote:
TechnicalEphemera wrote: However it happens change will only take place when a party (or group of parties) other than the Tory Party wins a general election and decides to exclude them from power.

Until that happens they have total freedom to be as inept as they want.
(my bold)

Tory government have the freedom to be inept until 2020 - that's apparently the earliest they can get the boot. Is there any other way Tories are made to go? Regardless of the status of other political parties, the legal fact remains they've got four more years. Unless, of course, their GE win in 2015 is declared unlawful or something.
People are creating an alternate reality to the one I see......it is virtually impossible to force a Government out under the current law, and it is really not worth the pain for a Government to call a GE. People are acting here that if there was another leader May would be calling an election now and be crying herself to sleep....absolute rot and nonsense

The fact the Tories have slim majority is useful for forcing them to drop some of their legislation....and Labour have been very successful in doing that.... but it will not force a change in Government.....Major was in worst straits back in the day but it didn't lead to a change of Government

The GE was fought in 2015...and was lost....of course, Corbyn and the lefts fault as they were in control of party policy and Corbyn' face was never off the tv criticising the leader, never mind all that poison he was giving to the Sun!

There will be no election until 2020 and the sooner people realise that the better.....

(my bold)

That's what I wrote in my post - the next GE is scheduled in 2020.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 9:12 pm

TobyLatimer wrote:All this palarva over Brexit has pushed the police investigations into the over spending at the last general election away from the agenda. Don't forget that the Tories technically only have a 12 seat majority, a few by-elections in marginals could soon reduce that figure. Also the natural by-elections caused by deaths or retirements etc. I'm not sure what the protocol is for triggering a vote of no confidence in the government, as happened with Callaghan, but 12 seats or less looks rather flaky considering that the Brexit could all go belly up in the next couple of years.

I agree with all of the above. However even if 12 byelections were triggered now May would probably win them handsomely (given where they are).

I think she will go early to try and boost her majority as you are right Brexit is going to get ugly.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 9:13 pm

A government is going to have purposely lose a vote of confidence in themselves just as all the Brexit negotiations are going on and before the boundary changes are put in place?

As I said there seems to be some alternate realities being invented here but with a tone of smug arrogance......

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 9:16 pm

Note that not one media outlet has questioned May's mandate to be PM - even though she only won the leadership by default.....

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 9:21 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:If Corbyn does lose I look forward to two things

A new NEC proposing mandatory reelection
The boundary changes leading to deselection of a number of the PLP - Wolves goes down to two seats so I can see Reynolds and McFadden at least getting the boot - especially McFadden who was parachuted in

It will be difficult to see Labour winning if the boundary changes are made but at least we may see the PLP post the next election changing........

If the NEC proposes mandatory reselection the party will instantly split and the 170 MPs will become the official opposition, if Corbyn is still in charge. This will get very messy for them in 20xx but they have a better chance with their constituents than the activists. Corbyn will therefore take steps to prevent that happening.

If he isn't in charge the process will be stopped. The headbangers of Unite aside it won't happen.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 9:21 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:Note that not one media outlet has questioned May's mandate to be PM - even though she only won the leadership by default.....

I told you, they'll be praising the smooth way in which the Tory's elected a new leader for the country and saying how great it is for everyone.

The press in this country make me want to puke.

mbc1955 · Post by **mbc1955** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 9:25 pm

So 'fairness' is a situational thing. What is likely to favour your side is fair, no matter how blatantly underhand it is. I still feel no grounds for pity towards the NEC, but I could be brought to feel pity towards those whose twisted ethics lead them to condone whatever irregular manuoevre creates power for their side.

No, I couldn't.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 9:25 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:A government is going to have purposely lose a vote of confidence in themselves just as all the Brexit negotiations are going on and before the boundary changes are put in place?

As I said there seems to be some alternate realities being invented here but with a tone of smug arrogance......

Dial down the abuse

Tell me why a government wouldn't lose a vote of confidence if it wanted to trigger an election. This would simply be seen as a technical device. Boris was proposing to do just that.

May has a mandate. We elect a political party not a PM and her government holds a majority in the house of commons. Nobody with any credibility questioned Brown's.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 9:26 pm

"Sorry old chap,there's no Coke left"

He prefers it to Pepsi according to my sources.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 9:26 pm

Have we seen this? long but detailed. Might be worth bookmarking...

Everything you need to know about Theresa May’s Brexit nightmare in five minutes

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2016/07 ... y-s-brexit

Surely she just needs to TAKE BACK CONTROL?

Right, which most people think means ending freedom of movement. But there's a couple of reasons that doing that would be economically catastrophic. Firstly, EU migrants bring in billions of pounds a year in taxes. Curtailing their numbers in the UK would have a profound effect on our public finances. Secondly, freedom of movement is a requirement of the single market. And leaving the single market would be one of the most radical and economically risky acts this country has ever taken.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 9:27 pm

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:If Corbyn does lose I look forward to two things

A new NEC proposing mandatory reelection
The boundary changes leading to deselection of a number of the PLP - Wolves goes down to two seats so I can see Reynolds and McFadden at least getting the boot - especially McFadden who was parachuted in

It will be difficult to see Labour winning if the boundary changes are made but at least we may see the PLP post the next election changing........
If the NEC proposes mandatory reselection the party will instantly split and the 170 MPs will become the official opposition, if Corbyn is still in charge. This will get very messy for them in 20xx but they have a better chance with their constituents than the activists. Corbyn will therefore take steps to prevent that happening.

If he isn't in charge the process will be stopped. The headbangers of Unite aside it won't happen.

Given the boundary changes, there is surely no pressing need for mandatory reselection anyway (at least for this Parliament).

Tense race now. Can the PLP hold on longer than it takes for Cobryn's popularity with the members to (inevitably) decline? Next year is crucial now.

What larks!

(Unless you happen to be one of the millions who desperately need a Labour government of course.)

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 9:29 pm

Have just arrived home to find my ballot for the local election at the end of the month has arrived. Decisions, decisions. Safe to say that the UKIP, Tory and Lib Dem candidates are all non-starters for me, but Labour or Green?

And so, what brilliant timing for the PLP to be demonstrating to me that, yet again, they are so far removed from being something worth supporting that I find myself about to put my cross against another party's name.

Sorry Mr Corbyn, this'll be used as another, 'he's unelectable' notch in the club they're beating you with, but it's them, not you. Always has been and looks like it always will be.

Tizme1 · Post by **Tizme1** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 9:29 pm

RobertSnozers wrote:What's the logic of setting a date of February as the cut-off point? It makes no sense. Surely you have to know there is going to be a leadership election before they stop eligibility? It excludes everyone who happened to join months before there was any sniff of a leadership election.

I was a member in February, it was up for renewal around May, I was a bit late renewing, so I've absolutely no idea if I'm eligible to vote or not.

Obviously I don't know if Labour have the same or similar system to us, but in the Green party, once your membership comes up for renewal, there's a 3 month 'Grace' period. If you renew in that time, your membership is continuous.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 9:31 pm

SpinningHugo wrote: Given the boundary changes

Chances of that happening given everything else going on?

Not likely I'd say - esp. as it impacts as many Tories as it does Labour. Why would she risk having a fight with her own MPs?

Also, given that post-Brexit we're supposed to be taking more of our own decisions, and increase in population, where's the logic that says we need fewer (600 rather than 650) MPs?

danesclose · Post by **danesclose** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 9:31 pm

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:A government is going to have purposely lose a vote of confidence in themselves just as all the Brexit negotiations are going on and before the boundary changes are put in place?

As I said there seems to be some alternate realities being invented here but with a tone of smug arrogance......
Dial down the abuse

Tell me why a government wouldn't lose a vote of confidence if it wanted to trigger an election. This would simply be seen as a technical device. Boris was proposing to do just that.

May has a mandate. We elect a political party not a PM and her government holds a majority in the house of commons. Nobody with any credibility questioned Brown's.

Theresa May (amongst others) did. Look what good that did her

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 9:31 pm

mbc1955 wrote:So 'fairness' is a situational thing. What is likely to favour your side is fair, no matter how blatantly underhand it is. I still feel no grounds for pity towards the NEC, but I could be brought to feel pity towards those whose twisted ethics lead them to condone whatever irregular manuoevre creates power for their side.

No, I couldn't.

That is generally how people interpret fairness. A good guide is that if both opposing sides are unhappy it is probably fair (or equally unfair). Both sides have some of what they want, the rules are clear and consistent.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 9:33 pm

TechnicalEphemera wrote:Dial down the abuse

Tell me why a government wouldn't lose a vote of confidence if it wanted to trigger an election. This would simply be seen as a technical device. Boris was proposing to do just that.

May has a mandate. We elect a political party not a PM and her government holds a majority in the house of commons. Nobody with any credibility questioned Brown's.

May tears up manifesto the Tory Party was elected on. "She has a mandate. People elect parties not PMs"

Corbyn tears up manifesto the Labour Party lost an election with. "He doesn't have a mandate. MPs are elected by their constituents not the members of the party."

I despair at the illogic of it all.