Thursday 14th July 2016

Post by **refitman** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 7:09 am

Morning all.

Post by **refitman** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 7:14 am

Good piece by Owen Jones on Labour.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ons-answer" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
labour-right-shambles-jeremy-corbyn-questions-answer

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 7:23 am

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/defe ... egulations" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Defence companies and MOD’s procurement agency ‘failing’ contract regulations

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... -july-2016" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 7:52 am

Morning.

Have woken up in a Carry On film, a world where Boris Johnson is deemed fit to be Foreign Secretary.
At least Hague and Hammond had some gravitas.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 7:57 am

Radio 4 had a piece with a Labour member, whose family has donated over £400,000, who is launching legal action to overturn the NEC's ruling.

He claims it is nothing to do with politics, or the fact he didn't vote for Corbyn.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 8:04 am

It is someone called Michael Foster
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36791782" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 8:23 am

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk ... -him-again" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Labour won't split if Jeremy Corbyn wins - the rebels will fight him again
Rather than founding a new party, the leader's opponents are planning a war of attrition.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 8:25 am

Here's an idea, how about they fight a war of attrition against the Tories ?
Just a suggestion, you never know, it might even work.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 8:27 am

On why there will be no split (and Labou's future)

I agree

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk ... -him-again" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What is amusing about that Jones piece is that he has clearly known from the start that Corbyn is not up to being leader, and supported him on the basis that he would 'do a Sanders'.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 8:33 am

Boris in charge of M16

danesclose · Post by **danesclose** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 8:47 am

Good morning all.
Handy ready reckoner for anyone going on holiday to Europe this summer.
http://www.southportvisiter.co.uk/news/ ... ar_twitter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 8:51 am

I'm more concerned by the expected interest rate cut.
Maybe the penny will drop for Brexit voters who rely on savings to top up their pensions.

danesclose · Post by **danesclose** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 8:52 am

Seems that our senior Brexit negotiator doesn't realise that EU states can't make their own, independent trade deals with non-EU members:

: 2016-07-14_085053.jpg (74.89 KiB) Viewed 8037 times

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 9:05 am

yahyah wrote:Morning.

Have woken up in a Carry On film, a world where Boris Johnson is deemed fit to be Foreign Secretary.
At least Hague and Hammond had some gravitas.

I thought i had an idea, that someone could make a random quote generator. Googled it & found it had already been done: (apologies if has been linked to before)

http://www.fandmpublications.co.uk/page ... nquote.htm

I’m like a greased panther, a coiled spring, all that suppressed kinetic energy down with the ethnics. Portsmouth is too full of drugs, obesity, underachievement, people come to see their MP they have run out of better ideas.

This year we've had a vote for "BoatyMcBoatFace"
ignored because it would make the UK look silly,
A referendum which is basically a total cock up, but must be followed because it will make us a shining beacon for the world.
And now Boris for foreign secretary (Boris ffs?)
A man who could compete Dennis Thatcher and The Duke of Edinburgh for diplomatic inappropiateness.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 9:10 am

Good morfternoon.

So. That thing about Boris Johnson. It wasn't a dream, then?

I see that the media is mining the archives for damning and embarrassing Boris Johnson utterences. I thought he was wonderful? The media has much to answer for. Power without responsibility to the nth degree.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 9:12 am

Maybe it is a Machiavellian move from May. Let him self destruct in full international view.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 9:18 am

yahyah wrote:Maybe it is a Machiavellian move from May. Let him self destruct in full international view.

Could be a way of trying to keep him out of the domestic sphere. But I think it has the potential for misfiring badly.

And Liam Fox? Who said TTIP was a receding threat? It's now more likely than it ever was before, given that the EU was showing signs of fighting shy of it.

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 9:21 am

yahyah wrote:Maybe it is a Machiavellian move from May. Let him self destruct in full international view.

I suppose she can remove him quickly if he proves a liability, but it would make her judgement look poor,
although that never seemed to hurt Cameron.

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 9:29 am

Victoria Derbyshire just asked Angela Eagle what policies would seperate her from Corbyn. She said we need to be more anti-austerity.

That's it I'm sold.

pala · Post by **pala** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 9:31 am

yahyah wrote:It is someone called Michael Foster
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36791782" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Guardian have it here: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... hip-ballot

No comments open.

danesclose · Post by **danesclose** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 9:42 am

TobyLatimer wrote:Victoria Derbyshire just asked Angela Eagle what policies would seperate her from Corbyn. She said we need to be more anti-austerity.

That's it I'm sold.

She's obviously learnt from the monstering Andrew Neill gave her at the weekend

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 9:43 am

pala wrote:
yahyah wrote:It is someone called Michael Foster
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36791782" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The Guardian have it here: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... hip-ballot

No comments open.

That won't work

https://spinninghugo.wordpress.com/2016 ... -rulebook/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(Those thinking I know no law are best not clicking).

mbc1955 · Post by **mbc1955** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 9:45 am

And so I wake up and I take a look at this strange new world we've collectively wandered into, and last night's optimism about this being the chance to renew things turns into ashes. Everybody's going to do their damnedest to keep fighting old and worthless battles, bald men (and women) will still scrap asininely for combs, and we'll wrap gaffer tape around the most broken of things and try to keep it all as it was.

And it's not even as if I was drunk last night.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 9:53 am

Morning all.

Interesting...

Chris Ship Verified account
‏@chrisshipitv

Michael Gove will not be offered a government job, I understand. He'll be off to the backbenches. With George. And Dave.

Complete clearout of the past decade then.

Some people are putting Liz Truss in at Education - I really hope not. Total airhead. Obsessed with Maths, textbooks, and maths textbooks. And knows nothing else.

ScarletGas · Post by **ScarletGas** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 9:55 am

yahyah wrote:Morning.

Have woken up in a Carry On film, a world where Boris Johnson is deemed fit to be Foreign Secretary.
At least Hague and Hammond had some gravitas.

Bora Da Yah Yah,

Surely its more like some nightmare version of Top Gear. With May and Hammond already installed all we need (God Forbid) is a Clarkson!

Lost Soul · Post by **Lost Soul** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 9:58 am

SpinningHugo wrote:
pala wrote:
yahyah wrote:It is someone called Michael Foster
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36791782" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The Guardian have it here: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... hip-ballot

No comments open.
That won't work

https://spinninghugo.wordpress.com/2016 ... -rulebook/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(Those thinking I know no law are best not clicking).

Thanks - that's useful. ( you might want to take that 'r' out of infelicitously though...)

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 10:00 am

I think I've just fallen in love with Angela Eagle. The footage of her at the start of this Graun article on the world reacting to Johnson is priceless. As is the rest of the article.

Theresa May has just completely torpedoed any reputation she - and the UK - may have had globally within her first few hours on the job. That has to be a record, surely? I mean, her appointment is being praised by Grant Shapps' cloning-experiment-gone-horribly-horribly-wrong Tony Abbott. Quite possibly the stupidest politician on Earth, and willing to demonstrate it at all times.

I can imagine it now:

President Serious Country: "Hello Ms. May, let's start our incredibly serious negotiations that are vital to the future of both our countries"

May: "Of course. Here's our best clown to represent us."

President Serious Country: "I'm sorry but... wtf? Are you serious?"

Gaaaahhh! What has she done? What was she thinking?

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 10:02 am

SpinningHugo wrote:
pala wrote:
yahyah wrote:It is someone called Michael Foster
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36791782" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The Guardian have it here: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... hip-ballot

No comments open.
That won't work

https://spinninghugo.wordpress.com/2016 ... -rulebook/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(Those thinking I know no law are best not clicking).

Thanks.

As with so much else of the rulebook, this is infelicitoursly drafted. However, a natural reading of those words is that in case of dispute as to the meaning of the rules, it is for the NEC to decide on the correct interpretation. The purpose of this power is to keep disputes out of court.

Is infelicitoursly a legal term?

danesclose · Post by **danesclose** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 10:04 am

Hammond confirms Britain will leave the Single Market following Brexit

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 36101.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Lost Soul · Post by **Lost Soul** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 10:06 am

PorFavor wrote:Good morfternoon.

So. That thing about Boris Johnson. It wasn't a dream, then?

I see that the media is mining the archives for damning and embarrassing Boris Johnson utterences. I thought he was wonderful? The media has much to answer for. Power without responsibility to the nth degree.

The international reaction to Boris' appointment :

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... n-minister" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 10:06 am

tinybgoat wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
pala wrote: The Guardian have it here: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... hip-ballot

No comments open.
That won't work

https://spinninghugo.wordpress.com/2016 ... -rulebook/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(Those thinking I know no law are best not clicking).
Thanks.

As with so much else of the rulebook, this is infelicitoursly drafted. However, a natural reading of those words is that in case of dispute as to the meaning of the rules, it is for the NEC to decide on the correct interpretation. The purpose of this power is to keep disputes out of court.

Is infelicitoursly a legal term?

Yers - but it's cromplicated.

TR'sGhost · Post by **TR'sGhost** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 10:08 am

Johnson in the Cabinet gives May something she would not have if Johnson were outside the Cabinet.

He will, in theory, be bound by Cabinet collective responsibility. If, in practice, he ploughs his own furrow as usual he can then be sacked for letting the country down and breaching collective responsibility while in a very senior government position. Which would, under normal circumstances, undermine Johnson and see his press and media support fade away.

Unfortunately the circumstances are not normal....

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 10:13 am

Is nobody suggesting that the BoJoFoSo appointment was a stitch-up by Boris when he stepped out of the leadership race?

Hmm I could end up being PM here, which looks far too much like a real job. If I ask Theresa, maybe she'll make me Foreign Secretary in return for standing down so I can prance around the world drinking fine wine.

pala · Post by **pala** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 10:13 am

Open Democracy:

https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/bart-c ... 8E.twitter

We knew this already but it's good to have it laid out as clearly as this.

Post by **adam** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 10:15 am

It's all very well thinking the Bullingdon Boys are no longer in charge, and I get the idea that May is working on the 'you broke it, you fix it' rule - Davies in charge of negotiating terms of exit seems sensible - but really, putting Johnson at the Foreign Office is just playing silly games - both with him and with the rest of the Tory party, and with the country and the rest of the world. Although I guess it rules out Gove staying in Government at all. Maybe she can make him an old fashioned lord chancellor and send him to the lords.

fedup59 · Post by **fedup59** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 10:15 am

mbc1955 wrote:And so I wake up and I take a look at this strange new world we've collectively wandered into, and last night's optimism about this being the chance to renew things turns into ashes. Everybody's going to do their damnedest to keep fighting old and worthless battles, bald men (and women) will still scrap asininely for combs, and we'll wrap gaffer tape around the most broken of things and try to keep it all as it was.

And it's not even as if I was drunk last night.

I thought your comment last night was spot on and tried to copy it here for today. Failed though, since I can't master copy/paste on a tablet. I mourn the death of the relationship between the Labour party and the Labour movement but see no way to fix what feels like a structural chasm. I take note of AK's argument that there needs to be a connecting space created between those PLP members and the CLPs that will seek to bring the two elements together but see little indication that those PLP members understand that the breakdown is two way.

I'm stuck on TE's description of party members as oddball because they are politically active and engaged - to my mind an arid image of democracy. (That was a couple of weeks ago when I asked what he thought being a member entailed, with apologies for not responding at the time but to address the points he raised I started an, as yet unfinished article!)

Anyway I believe an active, vibrant democracy needs politically engaged and informed people across the spectrum and that means we need to find ways to fight against the misinformation, self serving lack of accountability and elitist party and media systems that have bought the current system. I don't see any plaster big enough to fix those wounds at the moment.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 10:18 am

"Presumably PM just wrote F. Off next to Bojo's name and some civil servant misinterpreted it."

fedup59 · Post by **fedup59** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 10:18 am

Forgot morning all

thatchersorphan · Post by **thatchersorphan** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 10:22 am

PorFavor wrote:
yahyah wrote:Maybe it is a Machiavellian move from May. Let him self destruct in full international view.
Could be a way of trying to keep him out of the domestic sphere. But I think it has the potential for misfiring badly.

And Liam Fox? Who said TTIP was a receding threat? It's now more likely than it ever was before, given that the EU was showing signs of fighting shy of it.

TTIP or something like it may be MORE likely for the UK than for the EU. The treasury committee have been listening to experts as to our options
http://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/cb ... 14e3dbdf0b" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; 5th July
http://www.parliament.uk/business/commi ... nce-16-17/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Yesterdays

Post by **adam** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 10:23 am

adam wrote:Although I guess it rules out Gove staying in Government at all.

Michael Gove has been sacked as justice secretary, the BBC is reporting.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 10:28 am

And NiMo by the sound of it.

Anyone but Truss or Nick Gibb - he'd be a disaster.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 10:28 am

fedup59 wrote:
mbc1955 wrote:And so I wake up and I take a look at this strange new world we've collectively wandered into, and last night's optimism about this being the chance to renew things turns into ashes. Everybody's going to do their damnedest to keep fighting old and worthless battles, bald men (and women) will still scrap asininely for combs, and we'll wrap gaffer tape around the most broken of things and try to keep it all as it was.

And it's not even as if I was drunk last night.
I thought your comment last night was spot on and tried to copy it here for today. Failed though, since I can't master copy/paste on a tablet. I mourn the death of the relationship between the Labour party and the Labour movement but see no way to fix what feels like a structural chasm. I take note of AK's argument that there needs to be a connecting space created between those PLP members and the CLPs that will seek to bring the two elements together but see little indication that those PLP members understand that the breakdown is two way.

I'm stuck on TE's description of party members as oddball because they are politically active and engaged - to my mind an arid image of democracy. (That was a couple of weeks ago when I asked what he thought being a member entailed, with apologies for not responding at the time but to address the points he raised I started an, as yet unfinished article!)

Anyway I believe an active, vibrant democracy needs politically engaged and informed people across the spectrum and that means we need to find ways to fight against the misinformation, self serving lack of accountability and elitist party and media systems that have bought the current system. I don't see any plaster big enough to fix those wounds at the moment.

There isn't a problem with the Labour Party. There is a problem with the pillocks in charge of it, left and right.

I know I'm a stuck record, but the policy differences across the party are minuscule, with the exception of Trident (which will soon be out of the way anyway) and foreign policy.

Why can't they just stop shouting at each other, get together and figure it out? Focus on where we want Labour to be in 2020 and stop worrying about who's going to be in charge of what tomorrow. Who really knows what Corbyn wants beyond ending an interventionist foreign policy. How long does he want to lead for? What does his legacy look like? I'm not anywhere near well-informed enough to know what the solutions are. But there must be some.

nickyinnorfolk · Post by **nickyinnorfolk** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 10:29 am

Nicky Morgan has been sacked.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 10:29 am

Rafael Behr ‏@rafaelbehr 23s24 seconds ago

Gove could now take Boris's column slot at the Telegraph.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 10:31 am

Yep, she's gone

Nicky Morgan ‏@NickyMorgan01 13s14 seconds ago

Disappointed not to be continuing as Education Secretary & Min for Women & Equalities - two wonderful roles it's been a privilege to hold
5 retweets 0 likes

SATs disaster this year hasn't helped.

Post by **adam** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 10:35 am

David Davies's piece for Conservative home is linked to in the graun - it's here (xx'd out as a link to conservative home - replace with tt)-

hxxp://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2016/ ... itain.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

- and he still seems to be running with the idea 'German Car Industry' argument, that Europe will not want complicated trading relationships with us, and still seems to be ignoring the fact that these desires are not absolute but are relative - European governments are going to be balancing the desire to do the best they can for their industries against the considerable downsides of the EU collapsing if other nationalists see us leaving as a productive and viable option.

And even more than that, with Germany in particular, and with Germany in its place in the EU driving seat particularly, it ignores all of the political, moral and cultural significance modern Germany attaches to the European project. Every other European government, and the German government in particular, want to be able to talk to any other Leave movement and say 'Are you sure? Look what happened to the UK'.

mbc1955 · Post by **mbc1955** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 10:36 am

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
fedup59 wrote:
mbc1955 wrote:And so I wake up and I take a look at this strange new world we've collectively wandered into, and last night's optimism about this being the chance to renew things turns into ashes. Everybody's going to do their damnedest to keep fighting old and worthless battles, bald men (and women) will still scrap asininely for combs, and we'll wrap gaffer tape around the most broken of things and try to keep it all as it was.

And it's not even as if I was drunk last night.
I thought your comment last night was spot on and tried to copy it here for today. Failed though, since I can't master copy/paste on a tablet. I mourn the death of the relationship between the Labour party and the Labour movement but see no way to fix what feels like a structural chasm. I take note of AK's argument that there needs to be a connecting space created between those PLP members and the CLPs that will seek to bring the two elements together but see little indication that those PLP members understand that the breakdown is two way.

I'm stuck on TE's description of party members as oddball because they are politically active and engaged - to my mind an arid image of democracy. (That was a couple of weeks ago when I asked what he thought being a member entailed, with apologies for not responding at the time but to address the points he raised I started an, as yet unfinished article!)

Anyway I believe an active, vibrant democracy needs politically engaged and informed people across the spectrum and that means we need to find ways to fight against the misinformation, self serving lack of accountability and elitist party and media systems that have bought the current system. I don't see any plaster big enough to fix those wounds at the moment.
There isn't a problem with the Labour Party. There is a problem with the pillocks in charge of it, left and right.

I know I'm a stuck record, but the policy differences across the party are minuscule, with the exception of Trident (which will soon be out of the way anyway) and foreign policy.

Why can't they just stop shouting at each other, get together and figure it out? Focus on where we want Labour to be in 2020 and stop worrying about who's going to be in charge of what tomorrow. Who really knows what Corbyn wants beyond ending an interventionist foreign policy. How long does he want to lead for? What does his legacy look like? I'm not anywhere near well-informed enough to know what the solutions are. But there must be some.

But they can't. That's the long and the short of it and that's why it's now far better to phoenix-from-the-ashes with something new than to scrabble around in the ashes pretending they can somehow transform back into the wood that used to make a heary, warming fire.

nickyinnorfolk · Post by **nickyinnorfolk** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 10:37 am

RogerOThornhill wrote:And NiMo by the sound of it.

Anyone but Truss or Nick Gibb - he'd be a disaster.

Truss. Would. Be. A. Disgrace.

Seriously, I really can't bear that woman. I bet she was furious when NiMo originally got the job and she got the DEFRA gig. I suspect the only reason Morgan was picked was because of her 'mum at the school gates' demeanour. They might as well had picked some random woman at the school gate for all the expertise and knowledge she brought to the job. She was basically Gove's ventriloquist dummy.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 10:37 am

Richard Vaughan ‏@RichardVaughan1 39s39 seconds ago

Strong rumours that @JustineGreening is in line for education secretary following @NickyMorgan01's sacking
0 retweets 0 likes

Wouldn't mind this at all - pretty competent and non-ideological.

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 10:39 am

John Wittingdale sacked, Strictly Come Dancing breathes a sigh of relief.