Saturday 16th & Sunday 17th July 2016

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 16 Jul, 2016 12:54 pm

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HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 16 Jul, 2016 12:55 pm

Sick of people receiving credit.I got rid of IDS.I wrote a letter to him asking him to "please resign".A mere six years later he did.There is robust evidence to contradict this link.I believe.

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Sat 16 Jul, 2016 1:04 pm

Chris Grayling's promotion to Secretary of State for Transport hasn't worked quite as well as expected.

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pk1 · Post by **pk1** » Sat 16 Jul, 2016 1:07 pm

I was emailed this report by NEC member, Ann Black. It might interest some of you:

First, I’d like to thank everyone for your personal support at a difficult time, it has kept me more or less sane. That and staying off Twitter and Facebook.

Second, I deeply regret the abrupt cancellation of all local party meetings. The reasons relate to threats and intimidation of fellow-members, councillors and MPs at a number of recent meetings, and a growing climate of hostility on social media. As I wrote a few days ago, most discussions were taking place in a comradely atmosphere despite strong and conflicting views, and it’s unfortunate that all of us have suffered. NEC members are not exempt. My local party has had to cancel an all-member meeting at a cost of £270, a new members’ social event and a women’s tea party. At Tuesday’s NEC meeting I was one of only two members to query the sweeping nature of the ban. I got exemption for September meetings to discuss conference business, and have asked about candidate selections for next May. At yesterday’s procedures committee meeting I conveyed your messages forcefully, and a full explanation is on its way.

Third, thanks for all the messages before Tuesday’s NEC. I received hundreds of individual responses followed by many more from organised campaigns, and did my best to represent the former in particular. I still have 800 messages in my inbox – I’m reading them but cannot realistically reply to every one.

Below is a report from the meeting. You’ll have heard that it lasted seven hours, and many accounts are already online. We seem powerless to prevent proceedings leaking in real time, and Pete Willsman’s proposal that all phones should be confiscated caused panic among those who need connectivity as much as oxygen and water. Below are the main areas covered, the votes, where I stood, and why.

National Executive Committee, 12 July 2016

At the start we stood in silence to remember Jo Cox, with the Chair Paddy Lillis reminding us that MPs perform an honourable public service, before returning to business as usual.

We then considered a request from Andy Burnham and Debbie Abrahams to address the NEC on behalf of most of the shadow cabinet. They proposed seeking an independent mediator to try to avoid a damaging contest and asked the NEC to postpone decisions for 48 hours until they reported back. All of us hated this situation, but there was pessimism about whether any avenues remained unexplored, questions about why the shadow cabinet had waited till after a challenge, and concerns about indefinite drift. Thirty-two of the 33 NEC members were present, coming in on crutches, returning from holidays, taking time off work, and could not simply come back again on Thursday. The NEC eventually agreed to hear Andy and Debbie, who argued that far more time should be allowed for discussion. To give peace one last chance I proposed agreeing the papers before us, but delaying the start by 48 hours. If there was an eleventh-hour solution we could happily drop the whole process.

Safeguarding Issues

Before voting, the NEC discussed whether to hold secret ballots. Some argued that transparency was paramount. However members felt vulnerable, with personal details posted online, obscene and offensive messages, rape threats, death threats. The general secretary Iain McNicol faced legal intimidation for, among other things, planning to “impose” secret ballots. We know, now, that words have consequences, and those of us elected by party members or the public – councillors, constituency representatives, MPs – are in the front line. On a show of hands, secret ballots were agreed 17-15. I voted in favour, allowing each of us to account to our constituents in our own way. The close vote left some feeling that those who condemn abuse and intimidation had declined the opportunity to support their words with actions. My proposal to agree the process but delay the start for 48 hours was then carried by 20 votes to 12.

The next question was whether Jeremy Corbyn should be present. As leader he is a member of the NEC, but on all previous occasions, including Angela Eagle last year, NEC members standing for a position have absented themselves. The code of conduct states that aspiring candidates cannot attend any discussions that deal with election business. Some demurred because we hadn’t yet agreed the code, though it was identical with last year’s. Jeremy Corbyn addressed the meeting and withdrew, for the time being.

NEC members then expressed dissatisfaction about lack of notice of the meeting, and hearing about it in the media first. However the NEC could not discuss procedures for a leadership election until one had been triggered, and then had to move quickly. As soon as Angela Eagle announced that she would declare on Monday, Tuesday was obvious to anyone not buried under the duvet since 23 June, which began to seem an increasingly attractive place to be. And we had all, actually, got to the meeting.

Round One

After three hours we moved onto the agenda, with the first decision as to whether Jeremy Corbyn as the incumbent would automatically be on the ballot. We heard from James Goudie QC who said he would need to be nominated by 20% of MPs and MEPs, the same as challengers, and had copies of conflicting legal advice which said he wouldn’t. The rulebook is frankly a mess. There are anomalies: because candidates only need nominations from 15% of MPs / MEPs where there is a vacancy, Jeremy Corbyn would face a lower threshold if he resigned and stood again than if he stayed put, which seemed silly. Others said the rulebook never envisaged a situation where a leader did not have the confidence of 20% of his colleagues. My feedback seemed typical in splitting 50 / 50, with some members saying that regardless of their personal preference the winner would not be seen as legitimate if Jeremy Corbyn was excluded.

The discussion was lengthy and wide-ranging. There were calls for Michael Mansfield to address the NEC, but a vote to hear from more lawyers was lost 13 – 19. I voted against, as I doubted whether any minds would be changed by further representations. Some NEC members then proposed letting Jeremy Corbyn back in for the vote. This was carried 16-15. I voted against, because of precedent and because of concerns about legitimacy if he only got on the ballot through his own vote. This was in fact not necessary as the meeting voted 18-14 that he should automatically be on the ballot. I voted with the majority, as promised: doing otherwise would be seen, rightly, as a stitch-up, and he could probably have gained the 51 nominations anyway. And this decision now frees MPs to nominate according to conscience.

Nuts and Bolts

Jeremy Corbyn then left again, as we moved on to details of the process. I had asked members about eligibility to vote. There was near-unanimous opposition to last year’s £3 registered supporters, with full members feeling devalued and doubting supporters’ commitment to Labour. Many wanted the scheme scrapped entirely and I would have preferred to do this upfront, but as it is in the rulebook there had to be some minimal allowance. I voted, in line with your views, against extending the two day registration period to seven days, which was lost by 16 votes to 10. The draft proposal was for the one-off fee to be set at £12, and alternatives suggested were £10, £15, £20, £25 and slightly facetiously £500. The meeting voted 15-12 for £25 and I voted in favour, again consistent with what you told me.

I had also asked whether there should be a qualifying period for members. Most people who responded said Yes, with six months the most popular option, in line with choosing candidates at other levels. This was the proposal in the draft paper. However I proposed a more generous cut-off date of 24 June 2016, in line with the NEC ballot and giving a say to members who joined to help in local and mayoral campaigns and in the referendum. Sadly the vote was 14-14 so this was not carried and the 12 January 2016 date went through. I’ve had complaints since the meeting, and would make two points. First, if there was no qualifying period then any ballot would have to be delayed for months to allow CLPs to check the new members. Second, people join to support Labour’s aims and values and to campaign to elect Labour representatives to government. Many of us have stuck with the party under different leaders through continuing commitment to those general principles, not to any individual.

Equal Treatment

The six month period applies equally to affiliated trade unions and socialist societies, where members at 12 January 2016 have until 8 August to sign up as affiliated supporters. This has caused problems for some affiliates. Scientists for Labour have suspended applications until after the leadership contest, when they will process anyone who really wants to join: “Scientists for Labour is a Labour-supporting science policy group, not a fast-track for non-members to dictate who will lead the party.” Meanwhile media reports say that in one day 3,000 people with no previous interest in trade unions had paid £2 to join Unite Community in the hope of gaining preference over members, which is clearly not what the NEC decided.

Local parties will still have to check registered supporters for political opponents, though there should be far fewer than last time. CLPs are normally allowed eight weeks to challenge any membership application. Because of the huge numbers joining since 23 June, and the fact that none of them will be able to vote in the leadership election, I have argued successfully for CLPs to be given until late October to consider them.

Finally I appreciate that there are strong and differing views on much of this. Like other NEC members I am struggling to do the best for Labour in difficult times and hope that disagreements can be expressed courteously, according to the new, kinder, gentler politics espoused by our leader Jeremy Corbyn.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 16 Jul, 2016 1:07 pm

Just hearing (BBC) that nearly 3,000 military personnel have been arrested in connection with the attempted coup. That's rather a big chunk out of the Turkish armed forces (large in number though they may be), isn't it?

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 16 Jul, 2016 1:08 pm

Blimey - and over 2,000 judges to be suspended in Turkey (BBC).

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 16 Jul, 2016 1:57 pm

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AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 16 Jul, 2016 1:57 pm

I will be voting for Ann Black again.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 16 Jul, 2016 2:03 pm

New rules governing the conduct of Labour party members in South Tyneside have been branded as “laughable” by political opponents.
Members of South Shields Constituency Labour Party have received a letter warning them that conduct like “eye rolling” and “dismissive body language” during meetings could see them facing suspension.

Read more: http://www.shieldsgazette.com/news/loca ... z4EZn1M4UR" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 16 Jul, 2016 2:07 pm

I don't know enough about the people standing.
Who are the ones who will genuinely try and bring unity ?

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 16 Jul, 2016 2:09 pm

ohsocynical wrote:New rules governing the conduct of Labour party members in South Tyneside have been branded as “laughable” by political opponents.
Members of South Shields Constituency Labour Party have received a letter warning them that conduct like “eye rolling” and “dismissive body language” during meetings could see them facing suspension.

Read more: http://www.shieldsgazette.com/news/loca ... z4EZn1M4UR" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The party there has long standing problems - this at least isn't much to do with pro/anti Corbyn.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 16 Jul, 2016 2:11 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... led-people" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Luke can’t move, drink or use the loo. The council offered him a tea urn
Frances Ryan

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 16 Jul, 2016 2:15 pm

Someone called Sheila Mclennon is presenting Any Answers.
She is dire, making Anita Anand seem almost good.

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Sat 16 Jul, 2016 2:19 pm

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 16 Jul, 2016 2:19 pm

Womans Hour/You and Yours.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 16 Jul, 2016 2:26 pm

Somebody told me,I never listen between 10 and 11 weekdays (including drama at 10.45)to Jane Garvey or Libby Purvis and never have done ever.Nor on Saturday afternoons highlights.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 16 Jul, 2016 2:28 pm

McLennon's as thick as me. I expect Radio 4 presenters to be more intelligent and well informed than me.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 16 Jul, 2016 2:29 pm

#radioiplayer

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 16 Jul, 2016 2:30 pm

https://politicalscrapbook.net/2016/07/ ... cking-him/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

GEORGE OSBORNE’S ALLIES WANT TO TAKE REVENGE ON THERESA MAY FOR SACKING HIM
FRIDAY 15 JULY 10:14

About time the Tories enjoyed some post-Brexit fallout.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 16 Jul, 2016 2:32 pm

Never have than problem to be honest.It is an impossibility they are not.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 16 Jul, 2016 2:40 pm

Never understood that if there are long standing problems they don't just sit down occasionally.

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Sat 16 Jul, 2016 2:59 pm

Thanks Dan for wonky page syndrome remedy. Pain in the rear posting on Android.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 16 Jul, 2016 3:01 pm

Just a thought.

Why is political debate suddenly supposed to be polite and restrained? When did that happen?

In the days before social media, politicians had to speak at countless meetings and do the round of the back streets with a soap box. They always got heckled and they were expected to put up a good defence. It came with the job,

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 16 Jul, 2016 3:05 pm

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AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 16 Jul, 2016 3:16 pm

There was also a planned anti-Brown coup in the summer of 2008, which was nipped in the bud by the financial crash.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Sat 16 Jul, 2016 3:16 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
CnebTOlXYAE5YaD.jpg

That's impossible. It was all spur of the moment(TM). Several times.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Sat 16 Jul, 2016 3:18 pm

ohsocynical wrote:Members of South Shields Constituency Labour Party have received a letter warning them that conduct like “eye rolling” and “dismissive body language” during meetings could see them facing suspension.

Rolls eyes

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 16 Jul, 2016 3:21 pm

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ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 16 Jul, 2016 3:22 pm

JonnyT1234 wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:Members of South Shields Constituency Labour Party have received a letter warning them that conduct like “eye rolling” and “dismissive body language” during meetings could see them facing suspension.
Rolls eyes

Tut, tut, tut.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 16 Jul, 2016 3:23 pm

Stemming robust debate is a actually dangerous,so an MP can call a union leader an arsehole and label Corbyn supporters en mass as thugs,trots but any retort is automatically categorised as abuse,is that the idea?Certain MP's are deliberately inflaming to get responses to prove themselves "correct".I'm pretty mild mannered but occasionally need a rant and use a bad word ,lock me up.Of course there are degrees as to what should be acceptable,if you label everything as "abuse"without regard to any discrimination there is no debate,if you feel you are not being listened to what happens next.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 16 Jul, 2016 3:23 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
CnbjdB2WIAAEkSl.jpg

Anyone know the rules well?

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Sat 16 Jul, 2016 3:25 pm

Man behind Turkey's coup identified.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Sat 16 Jul, 2016 3:26 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
JonnyT1234 wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:Members of South Shields Constituency Labour Party have received a letter warning them that conduct like “eye rolling” and “dismissive body language” during meetings could see them facing suspension.
Rolls eyes
Tut, tut, tut.

"Whatever", while flouncing away.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 16 Jul, 2016 3:32 pm

Flouncing away is strictly forbidden come back right now

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 16 Jul, 2016 3:34 pm

HindleA wrote:Stemming robust debate is a actually dangerous,so an MP can call a union leader an arsehole and label Corbyn supporters en mass as thugs,trots but any retort is automatically categorised as abuse,is that the idea?Certain MP's are deliberately inflaming to get responses to prove themselves "correct".I'm pretty mild mannered but occasionally need a rant and use a bad word ,lock me up.Of course there are degrees as to what should be acceptable,if you label everything as "abuse"without regard to any discrimination there is no debate,if you feel you are not being listened to what happens next.

There have been some nasty snide remarks made by MPs. It seems Kinnock Minor was on TV yesterday using the term Corbynista's which is, if not insulting, inflamatory.

Polite criticism is enough to get people blocked. Six of one half a dozen of the other it sounds like, but politicians can't take a fat wage, padded expenses and lots of long holidays plus all the perks that come their way, and not be answerable to anyone.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 16 Jul, 2016 3:40 pm

When I say "occasional" rants and swearing I mean at least six hours a day.

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Sat 16 Jul, 2016 3:45 pm

HindleA wrote:When I say "occasional" rants and swearing I mean at least six hours a day.

It's a curse. [youtube]Jl55Cvy4L6Q[/youtube]

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Sat 16 Jul, 2016 3:50 pm

ohsocynical wrote:New rules governing the conduct of Labour party members in South Tyneside have been branded as “laughable” by political opponents.
Members of South Shields Constituency Labour Party have received a letter warning them that conduct like “eye rolling” and “dismissive body language” during meetings could see them facing suspension.

Read more: http://www.shieldsgazette.com/news/loca ... z4EZn1M4UR" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'll get my coat.

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ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 16 Jul, 2016 4:09 pm

HindleA wrote:When I say "occasional" rants and swearing I mean at least six hours a day.

Honestly. Mr Ohso won't let me watch politicians on the TV, because of my language, and now when we're in the car if it's politics on the radio, I have to fight him to keep it on.

JustMom · Post by **JustMom** » Sat 16 Jul, 2016 4:16 pm

My daughter's the same with me,she goes mad if I have politics on because I get so angry and my blood pressure shoots up..
One day the nurse came to test it was off the chart.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 16 Jul, 2016 4:20 pm

I just had to share this tweet from Michael Rosen, really funny:

Michael Rosen‏ @MichaelRosenYes
Nicky Morgan didn't reach the expected standard and has been turned into an academy.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Sat 16 Jul, 2016 4:25 pm

Willow904 wrote:I just had to share this tweet from Michael Rosen, really funny:

Michael Rosen‏ @MichaelRosenYes
Nicky Morgan didn't reach the expected standard and has been turned into an academy.

Has she had to resort to selling off her playing fields yet?

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 16 Jul, 2016 4:25 pm

There are people with power and then there's everyone else. The people we see not surrounded by security details aren't in control. It's not surprising to me Labour have made some unpopular choices lately. It's a wise decision, in my opinion. Churchill getting hissed at by an uncongenial crowd isn't comparable to conditions democratically accountable representatives are living today. Think of those people you love the most. Imagine them subjected to social media abuse, verbal abuse in person and incursions into their physical, personal space. Don't lose your temper with people you still have access to.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Sat 16 Jul, 2016 4:26 pm

citizenJA wrote:Flouncing away is strictly forbidden come back right now

Flounced right back. Or is that banned too?

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 16 Jul, 2016 4:27 pm

JonnyT1234 wrote:
citizenJA wrote:Flouncing away is strictly forbidden come back right now
Flounced right back. Or is that banned too?

Have we voted on it? Yea or nay?

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Sat 16 Jul, 2016 4:30 pm

citizenJA wrote:Have we voted on it? Yea or nay?

That sounds suspiciously like democracy. You're banned from associating with anyone who may or may not exhibit left wing leanings, forthwith. Signed, your cuddly NEC.

mbc1955 · Post by **mbc1955** » Sat 16 Jul, 2016 4:33 pm

I haven't flounced, off or back. I just haven't had anything remotely original to say today (first person to say the obvious...)

Post by **letsskiptotheleft** » Sat 16 Jul, 2016 4:34 pm

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Perfect example here of how a lie on social media can propagate and grow pretty fast.

Please read the whole thread, admittedly there's great faults on both sides, but I find it sad that labour people who are standing for election have to put up with this nonsense, they were once respected to a certain degree by a majority, stand against JC and that is forgotten in the cess pit of social media.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 16 Jul, 2016 4:45 pm

Matt Turner ‏@MattTurner4L Jul 13

John Mann MP has just revealed that he was approached six months ago to back Owen Smith. Shows how long #LabourCoup was in the works.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 16 Jul, 2016 4:51 pm

JustMom wrote:My daughter's the same with me,she goes mad if I have politics on because I get so angry and my blood pressure shoots up..
One day the nurse came to test it was off the chart.

Just little doses of politics for you then.

I am very lucky. Apart from a small rise a few months ago, which has now righted itself, I don't suffer from high blood pressure. It's just the bad language in my case.