Wednesday 20th July 2016

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 11:33 am

tinybgoat wrote:Don't suppose Corbyn could agree to stand down,
on proviso that he's nominated to challenge for deputy leadership?
Would that keep some supporters on board,
and piss off the plp?

Nope. Democratically elected. Doing what those who voted for him want.

For many it's not so much Corbyn, it's what the PLP have been getting up to.

It's not right, never can be right.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 11:44 am

From September 2015, from someone who knows the lobbying "business" very well: http://www.spinwatch.org/index.php/issu ... g-business" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 11:45 am

Sorry about the sizing...

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 11:46 am

HindleA wrote:I like the word disdain,it even pronounces appropriately.

Voluptuous
Voluminous
Cantankerous
Verdant
Calamitous
Exasperating
Gastric
Anaemic

All words that sound when said out loud like what they represent.

Though, strangely, not onomatopoeic (note, I do know that the words above are not onomatopoeic, but I've always found it funny that it is the opposite of what it represents).

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 11:50 am

Jane Aitchison ‏@JaneAitchison 15h15 hours ago

I hear that Jess Phillips threat to quit labour when #Corbyn wins the leadership a 2nd time made the registered supporter site crash again

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 11:51 am

Morning all

Just watched three deeply unimpressive members of the PLP on Victoria Derbyshire show

Is this is representative of what the PLP is like then god help us as a party!

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 11:52 am

JonnyT1234 wrote:
HindleA wrote:I like the word disdain,it even pronounces appropriately.
Voluptuous
Voluminous
Cantankerous
Verdant
Calamitous
Exasperating
Gastric
Anaemic

All words that sound when said out loud like what they represent.

Though, strangely, not onomatopoeic (note, I do know that the words above are not onomatopoeic, but I've always found it funny that it is the opposite of what it represents).

I'm cantankerous ... It's taken me years to achieve.

Post by **letsskiptotheleft** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 11:54 am

yahyah wrote:Sorry. Am just finding it all a bit silly at the moment.

If we don't want Corbyn picked apart, and things dug up or manipulated about every aspect of his life, words, beliefs, then isn't it wrong to do the same to his rivals ?

Indeed yahyah, it is the silly season, read a tweet, shouldn't really bother because it is basically one empty vacuous echo chamber, preaching to fellow convertees that condemned Smith for writing for the Mail, if the idiot had read correctly they would have noticed that it was the Mirror, but that person was quick to jump in, it's all really pathetic really, and gradually day by day I care less, there's too many idiots out there, trendy right on students thinking social media can change the world, well guess what, I thought that pre-election 2015, I was wrong, terrifically wrong. So every time Smith and others, who most thought were ok before challenging the sainted Jeremy get a hammering I will remember this, why show loyalty to a man who doesn't know the meaning of it?

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Both sides are pathetic, slime bag Milne who cares not a jot about Labour, new Labour Luddites. Rats in a sack, meanwhile the Tories regroup and can look forward to at least two more terms in power.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 11:57 am

Q: Would you back Hinkley Point?

Yes, said Smith.

Oh.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 11:57 am

JamesRoy ‏@JamesRoy 1h1 hour ago
FinancialTimes: UK gilt auction clocks record low yield http://on.ft.com/2afUBmW" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 11:57 am

Just been reading the Smith responses to questions.......not impressed as he just seems to be reaffirming some of the media pet subjects (anti-semitism and misogyny being the two favourites).....if he is so keen about women in the party then he could have refused to stand against Eagle surely?

Won't be voting for him

If this is the best the whole of the Labour establishment can put up against Corbyn then it is really desperate.......we were only in Government 6 years ago...where are all the ex-cabinet ministers and 'big beasts'? Are they acknowledging they are unelectable and want to be the puppet masters?

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 11:58 am

The right of the PLP are faced with an impossible conundrum. On the one hand, many of them believe that only through being tougher than the Tories on welfare, or being seen to want to drastically reduce immigration, can they ‘reconnect’ with the voters they lost from 2001 onwards. Yet on the other hand, they must persuade an increasingly leftwing and discontented party membership that they will not repeat the mistakes of either Blair’s government, or Miliband’s capitulation to Tory spending plans. Forced into this double-bind, both Angela Eagle and now Owen Smith have sought to win the leadership election by persuading the membership, against all evidence, that deep down they have always been against austerity, and they just want to see Labour in power so that they can put Corbyn’s policies into practice.

http://blacktrianglecampaign.org/2016/0 ... h-believe/

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 11:59 am

(((Duncan Weldon))) ‏@DuncanWeldon 5m5 minutes ago
20 year gilt auction at 1.64%. Can we have a UK infrastructure fund now please?

Quite.

We need less of the "but we can't possible borrow!" line and a bit more strategic thinking.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 12:01 pm

ohsocynical wrote:Sorry about the sizing...

Is that better?

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 12:01 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:Just been reading the Smith responses to questions.......not impressed as he just seems to be reaffirming some of the media pet subjects (anti-semitism and misogyny being the two favourites).....if he is so keen about women in the party then he could have refused to stand against Eagle surely?

Won't be voting for him

If this is the best the whole of the Labour establishment can put up against Corbyn then it is really desperate.......we were only in Government 6 years ago...where are all the ex-cabinet ministers and 'big beasts'? Are they acknowledging they are unelectable and want to be the puppet masters?

I've just read somewhere that Smith was against all women short lists. Probably isn't now.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 12:03 pm

ohsocynical wrote:From September 2015, from someone who knows the lobbying "business" very well: http://www.spinwatch.org/index.php/issu ... g-business" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …

Well indeed. And think in particular about the arms and nuclear power lobbyists! Corbin is their nightmare.

Owen Smith did attend that infamous arms dealers dinner btw, but was hosted by Airbus rather than the more obviously belligerent companies.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 12:04 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:(((Duncan Weldon))) ‏@DuncanWeldon 5m5 minutes ago
20 year gilt auction at 1.64%. Can we have a UK infrastructure fund now please?

Quite.

We need less of the "but we can't possible borrow!" line and a bit more strategic thinking.

Come on Roger do you think there's a magic money tree?

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 12:05 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:Sorry about the sizing...
Is that better?

Thanks... Suddenly the images I'm posting are huge. Normally on here if the file is too big it says so.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 12:09 pm

tinybgoat wrote:Apologies if this was posted last week:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... max-mosley

£200k, donation, Interesting timing.
Is it time for Watson to go, seeing as he seems to be
implicated/involved in undermining others,
is that a good quality for deputy leader?

I'm not that keen on Tom Watson, but I don't really see any reason not to take the Max Mosley donation at face value. Watson is known for standing up to Rupert Murdoch and Mosley is known to be keen to see tighter regulation of the press.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 12:10 pm

00:00, 25 MAY 2006 UPDATED 04:32, 31 MAR 2013

LABOUR has insulted the memory of Aneurin Bevan by selecting a candidate for his old seat who works as a top lobbyist for a controversial drugs firm, an opponent has claimed.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales ... nt-2340542

This has just been posted on my local Lab. Facebook page.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 12:14 pm

Smith lost that one, of course. But so did the Labour candidate fighting the simultaneous Assembly by-election - it wasn't all (or even mainly) about him.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 12:35 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
pk1 wrote:Ed is backing Owen

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
More fool him.

So Ed's a fool now ?

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 12:36 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:Morning all

Just watched three deeply unimpressive members of the PLP on Victoria Derbyshire show

Is this is representative of what the PLP is like then god help us as a party!

This. I've no idea to whom you refer, hsom, but nearly posted something earlier before yet another appt at the hospital, but didn't in case my meaning was misconstrued. Anyway whilst watching some Labour MP on BBC Breakfast I felt let down by the presentation or overall demeanour of many pols these days. It is not a dress thing or even grooming, although hairy nostrils and to some extent overly bushy eyebrows are a turn off, nor is it accent. Nevertheless considering they have experienced hustings and the like many of them seem to be extremely poor communicators.

danesclose · Post by **danesclose** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 12:36 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
RogerOThornhill wrote:(((Duncan Weldon))) ‏@DuncanWeldon 5m5 minutes ago
20 year gilt auction at 1.64%. Can we have a UK infrastructure fund now please?

Quite.

We need less of the "but we can't possible borrow!" line and a bit more strategic thinking.
Come on Roger do you think there's a magic money tree?

Believe it or not, there is:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... y-science/

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 12:42 pm

Willow904 wrote:
tinybgoat wrote:Apologies if this was posted last week:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... max-mosley

£200k, donation, Interesting timing.
Is it time for Watson to go, seeing as he seems to be
implicated/involved in undermining others,
is that a good quality for deputy leader?
I'm not that keen on Tom Watson, but I don't really see any reason not to take the Max Mosley donation at face value. Watson is known for standing up to Rupert Murdoch and Mosley is known to be keen to see tighter regulation of the press.

Good point. Mosley personally underwrote some less wealthy phone hacking victims for their legal bills against Murdoch.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 12:48 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
00:00, 25 MAY 2006 UPDATED 04:32, 31 MAR 2013

LABOUR has insulted the memory of Aneurin Bevan by selecting a candidate for his old seat who works as a top lobbyist for a controversial drugs firm, an opponent has claimed.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales ... nt-2340542
This has just been posted on my local Lab. Facebook page.

Who are Blaenau Gwent Peoples Voice ? It's their candidate who was invoking someone long dead for political advantage.

edited to add:

Have found out, thankfully nothing to do with David Icke.
They split from Labour over all women shortlists and thought they would storm South Wales with a new left wing movement. The rest, as they say is history, they didn't achieve much success and disbanded. Although it was ten years ago, it may be a cautionary tale for current times.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 12:59 pm

Anyone see PMQs ?

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 1:03 pm

Saw on the Telegraph that BT internet is down. Hope not too many suffering.

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 1:05 pm

yahyah wrote:Anyone see PMQs ?

Smith accompanied Eagle

: ScreenShot01495.jpg (51.67 KiB) Viewed 7074 times

Not voting for Smith btw. Don't trust him

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 1:12 pm

yahyah wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:
pk1 wrote:Ed is backing Owen

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
More fool him.

So Ed's a fool now ?

Yes.
He of all people should have seen what we were about when we joined in droves and supported him in the hope there was a better path for the Labour party.
We were disillusioned but he gave us hope. Or he did me. But it seems he was just another politician.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 1:14 pm

He said he would be willing to authorise a nuclear strike. Asked if he would pull the nuclear button, he replied:
Yes is the unfortunate answer to that because, if you are serious about defence and serious about having a nuclear deterrent, then you have to be prepared to do that.

Great. Another psychopath running for a leadership position.

There are ways of answering this question that can be used to avoid admitting you are willing to mass murder:

1. The Corbyn approach of 'No, I wouldn't be willing to do it.' (Thank Christ, we don't have a mass murderer in the making in power)
2. The political approach (and most sensible one if you are pro-nuclear weapons) of, 'because we have the nuclear deterrent, that is actually something I will thankfully never, ever have to do. It's the sole reason I support keeping our nuclear arsenal, their mere existence means we will never be attacked so I will never have to push that button, we will never have to defend our shores against invasion, we will never have to face another world war'
3. The May and Smith approach of, 'yes, I will willingly murder millions of people just for the hell of it. Feeling safe with me at the helm, are you? [No, no I bloody well am not]'

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 1:16 pm

They all have feet of clay. Even Corbyn.
I don't blame Ed, and I don't think he was a fool.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 1:17 pm

Can see another term or two of the Tories coming up.
The polarisation is too strong for Labour to work with this.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 1:21 pm

Question: how is a former lobbyist for multinational companies going to connect with the working classes who were abandoned by Labour and have abandoned them back?

How does the PLP think that this is going to get represented by our glorious free press if and when Smith beats Corbyn?

Two basic questions you'd think the PLP would have asked themselves before picking Smith as their sole candidate. Noddy mistake in a litany of them throughout this entire bloody shambles.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 1:21 pm

JonnyT1234 wrote:
He said he would be willing to authorise a nuclear strike. Asked if he would pull the nuclear button, he replied:
Yes is the unfortunate answer to that because, if you are serious about defence and serious about having a nuclear deterrent, then you have to be prepared to do that.
Great. Another psychopath running for a leadership position.

There are ways of answering this question that can be used to avoid admitting you are willing to mass murder:

1. The Corbyn approach of 'No, I wouldn't be willing to do it.' (Thank Christ, we don't have a mass murderer in the making in power)
2. The political approach (and most sensible one if you are pro-nuclear weapons) of, 'because we have the nuclear deterrent, that is actually something I will thankfully never, ever have to do. It's the sole reason I support keeping our nuclear arsenal, their mere existence means we will never be attacked so I will never have to push that button, we will never have to defend our shores against invasion, we will never have to face another world war'
3. The May and Smith approach of, 'yes, I will willingly murder millions of people just for the hell of it. Feeling safe with me at the helm, are you? [No, no I bloody well am not]'

The problem is that the third answer is the only one that is "acceptable" to the MSM (certainly if you don't take the absolutist "never" stance JC does)

And it doesn't show those saying it are "sociopaths" (I don't think Smith or Blair or indeed May really believe it) rather the silliness of what lobby hacks consider to be "strong leadership" and "statesmanship". Place the blame where it actually belongs......

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 1:22 pm

'More fool you'.

Used for saying that you think someone is doing something stupid.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 1:23 pm

Fair enough.I suppose it depends on whether it on a personal basis or possibility of appealing to enough people to have at least a chance of Labour getting in again.Personally,I don't give a shit if he is the most duplicituous man a on earth and a compulsive liar it is hardly a barrier to becoming PM,an asset in fact
That unfortunately is the reality.Of course Corbyn isn't immune from these "attributes",you have to have them to some degree.In lieu of a plant pot,my preferred candidate,I have no other choice.

Lost Soul · Post by **Lost Soul** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 1:24 pm

TobyLatimer wrote:
yahyah wrote:Anyone see PMQs ?

Smith accompanied Eagle
ScreenShot01495.jpg

Not voting for Smith btw. Don't trust him

That's good to see ( the photo )

I will probably vote for Owen Smith. I'm Labour party member and have been for ( counts fingers...and toes...and pencils on desk...)
over 30 years ( crikey ! )
Out of a choice of two, I'd thought it'd be a 'least worst' option, but I'm pleasantly surprised by him.

I've been turned off by the sheer volume of 'stuff' coming from Corbyn's supporters, some of it quite unpleasant. So much so that I've been close to leaving
over the last few months. I'm not sure how to do it though - do I just cancel the direct debit ? I did email to ask but didn't get a reply.
So, still here. Still one of 'the membership'. But without any confidence in Corbyn as a leader.

I'll hang on for a bit and see what happens.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 1:26 pm

I value Ed's views, and his decency, and will seriously consider who he endorses.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 1:28 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:The problem is that the third answer is the only one that is "acceptable" to the MSM (certainly if you don't take the absolutist "never" stance JC does)

And it doesn't show those saying it are "sociopaths" (I don't think Smith or Blair or indeed May really believe it) rather the silliness of what lobby hacks consider to be "strong leadership" and "statesmanship". Place the blame where it actually belongs......

So Smith is just going to let himself be a pushover for the MSM? Marvellous.

Leadership is opting to say things that the MSM don't want to hear when the people actually listening are the public.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 1:31 pm

People on both sides should stay whoever wins - if JC wins he is going to have to make concessions to the PLP (not the Bitterites, but the Nandys and Starmers and Champions) if OS does he is going to have to accept that he has a left leaning membership that is not prepared to compromise on certain things and cannot be ignored.

At least that is assuming, as - ever the optimist - I do, that both men have their heads screwed on to at least some degree.

Still think that maybe the worst was averted last week

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 1:32 pm

Furthermore, by saying, yes you'd use them you're actually proving that they won't achieve the supposed reason for keeping them in the first place. It's demonstrating that you have no belief in their actually bring a deterrent.

It's much more sensible to say 'I'll never have to do it because I firmly believe they work as a deterrent' than to implicitly admit that you don't believe that.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 1:32 pm

Lost Soul@

I've felt the same. When I phoned I was told you have to send a letter, presume it may be because of cancelling the direct debit.

Every day I go through the shall I ? shan't I ?
Am not sure who is worse, a pox on both their houses is how I feel about both factions now.

Lost Soul · Post by **Lost Soul** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 1:33 pm

I'm expecting howls, but sounds quite reasonable to me :

'Smith said that, if he became leader, he would like Jeremy Corbyn to become party president. Currently there is no such post, but Smith seemed to be thinking of a role similar to the one played by the Lib Dem president, who plays a high profile campaigning role outside parliament. Smith said:

Jeremy has still got a lot to say for the Labour Party, but I don’t think Jeremy is a leader. I don’t think he’s a leader in parliament, but I do think he’s got a lot to say for Labour. I would absolutely want him to take a role like president, or chairman, as we have had in the past ... Jeremy has a way of communicating that many of our members find very appealing.'

Lost Soul · Post by **Lost Soul** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 1:34 pm

yahyah wrote:Lost Soul@

I've felt the same. When I phoned I was told you have to send a letter, presume it may be because of cancelling the direct debit.

Every day I go through the shall I ? shan't I ?

Yup, me too !

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 1:34 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:There is no vacancy for deputy leader. Perhaps unfortunately.

There was no vacancy for leader, either.

Labour had a leader. Two people have challenged his leadership. Now we have another contest a year after the last one.

Labour has a deputy leader. Perhaps someone could challenge him. Why not? It worked for the leader.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 1:41 pm

Corbyn himself held the view [maybe no longer for obvious reasons] that Labour leadership elections should be held every one or two years.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 1:43 pm

http://labourlist.org/2016/07/jeremy-co ... own-words/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 1:43 pm

I'm almost afraid to post this:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... -762m-fine

Lost Soul · Post by **Lost Soul** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 1:47 pm

ohsocynical wrote:I'm almost afraid to post this:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... -762m-fine

I think it says he joined them two years after the case was filed though ?