Wednesday 20th July 2016

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 6:47 am

Morning

Childcare costs denying working families a good living standard – study

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2016/ ... foundation" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.jrf.org.uk/press/working-pa ... -standards" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(Still no outlining of particular DWP Minister's Roles beyond the vague and the usual getting the disabled "into work and thrive",non thriveability for the unproductive according to myopic view which isn't fascistic at all.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 7:08 am

Always hated the word "thrive".There is a probably a word for "hatred of particular letters of the alphabet in a particular order",which if there is I would most likely show appropriate disdain.I like the word disdain,it even pronounces appropriately.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 7:23 am

In October 2005, commenting on a Pfizer-backed report into offering patients a choice between NHS services and private-sector healthcare providers, Mr Smith said: ‘We believe that choice is a good thing and that patients and healthcare professionals should be at the heart of developing the agenda.’
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/ ... -rlvc33mhl" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I think choice is OK as long as it doesn't undermine the NHS. Does that work here?

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 7:40 am

Breaking: Owen Smith states he has never used Viagra.

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 7:46 am

HindleA wrote:Always hated the word "thrive".There is a probably a word for "hatred of particular letters of the alphabet in a particular order",which if there is I would most likely show appropriate disdain.I like the word disdain,it even pronounces appropriately.

Don't know but makes for good googling.
Got a far as Lipograms & Logomisia so far,
and now feeling guilty about my use of grammar, sentence construction & esp. the word "googling"

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 8:16 am

Morning.

Call me naive, but isn't Smith using 'We' as a common workplace method of communication ?

I can't be the only person here who had to send out memos and run training sessions using the royal 'we', even when I was not necessarily in agreement with the policy or protocol being introduced.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 8:19 am

HindleA wrote:Breaking: Owen Smith states he has never used Viagra.

Aahh, but that doesn't mean that he hasn't wanted to use it, or secretly wants to force the NHS to put it onto every male patients prescription. Or that he doesn't own shares hidden away in a secret account somewhere so he'll make squillions when his evil plan comes to fruition.

A man down the pub told me he keeps a pic of Blair in his wardrobe.
Gets it out every morning and polishes it. True.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 8:27 am

Never reached the exalted heights or anywhere near it of memo sending,with a pathological fear of taking any responsibility for anything if I could possible avoid it and despite threats of encouragement of promotion to be in charge of anything which after total bewilderment why I should be asked I declined I maintained and maintain a lowly but happy status.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 8:27 am

Sorry. Am just finding it all a bit silly at the moment.

If we don't want Corbyn picked apart, and things dug up or manipulated about every aspect of his life, words, beliefs, then isn't it wrong to do the same to his rivals ?

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 8:32 am

Memo to FTN: we have been "banging on" about Labour/Corbyn since June 25.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 8:33 am

Debbie Abrahams ‏@Debbie_abrahams 1h1 hour ago
Tory tuition fees hike passes first hurdle as Labour fails in bid to block it http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/to ... ar_twitter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; … Tories are hammering our young people

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 8:33 am

Guardian politics ‏@GdnPolitics 1h1 hour ago
1) May is expected to tell Merkel that even though "#Brexit means #Brexit", there will be no Article 50 this year.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 8:36 am

Message received TinyC.

I've rolled my sleeves up, and am logging off.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 8:55 am

I agree - I tweeted something the other day about folk who were as I said "manufacturing discord".

For me now I just want the process to run with a focus on policy discussions not personalities. And yes let's have a look at what May is up to. And Trump. And the rest of the rabble

fedup59 · Post by **fedup59** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 9:00 am

Morning all

Sitting at the kitchen door enjoying coffee and watching great dollops of rain rush from the sky, with thunder booming in the background, my three year old grandson is noisily upset because we promised he could have the paddling pool out - ho hum.

On a positive note I do love a good thunderstorm.

First lightening - yeah!

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 9:01 am

tinyclanger2 wrote:Memo to FTN: we have been "banging on" about Labour/Corbyn since June 25.

To be fair, Lord High Chief Seether, on days when we've tried not to it just sort of....happened......

So I'm going to say this, bearing in mind it might encourage some more seething....

Owen Smith is a very capable man. I rather like him; and as yahyah says,if it's not fair to drag up Corbyn's past, it's not fair to to likewise to Smith. If I had a vote in this, I'd be genuinely torn now.

What concerns me most is that, whoever wins,there remains the possibility that certain factions within the PLP will not give their whole-hearted support to the new leader.
Blair got his landslide in 1997 and lost more than 4 million votes thereafter; Brown, Miliband, and now Corbyn have been briefed against and generally unsupported by their own colleagues.
If Labour wants to be taken seriously as a party of government, it needs to - for the first time in years - support and promote the leader and his policies. If it doesn't, we're sunk.

Smith may well be the "unity candidate" and on his side are the 50-odd MPs who chose him over Angela Eagle. He is not as "right" as he has been painted over recent days, and he could just pull this off.
Corbyn has been responsible for a massive rise in party membership, which has netted the Party more than £4 Miilion; he has an army of supporters who are willing to do the legwork needed in a campaign.

If the two of them could only work together, there could be a serious alternative to Tory rule - especially if alliances with other parties could be made. They both have distinct advantages that the other doesn't have - and I hope that the supporters on both sides can see that and do what they can to stop the fighting and get on with the opposing that we pay them for.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 9:06 am

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... st-uk-30bn" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Treasury cut to carbon capture will cost UK £30bn, says watchdog
Government says carbon storage technology not cost-efficient, while critics say U-turn will double cost of tackling climate change

https://www.nao.org.uk/report/sustainab ... ng-review/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 9:11 am

Repeat because it is today at 14.30

http://www.parliament.uk/business/commi ... nce-16-17/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Universal Credit's progress examined

PAC Devereux,Couling,(Biffo the Bear resigned)

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 9:13 am

Sorry if already linked/mentioned,announced yesterday

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/aman ... -inspector" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Amanda Spielman confirmed as next Ofsted Chief Inspector

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 9:15 am

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistic ... ation-held" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Further education and skills: statistical first release

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 9:18 am

Good morfternoon.

I have just received my ballot papers concerning you-know-what and you-know-who.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 9:22 am

Retraction of above. NEC ballot (I've just opened the envelope - I find it helps). I thought it was a bit previous . . .

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 9:24 am

The "choice" thing is far better addressed by communicative and genuine shared care philosophy as far as possible.I believe my better half's life was both extended (feelings of control/being listened to) and improved by attention to that IMHO

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 9:24 am

HindleA wrote:Repeat because it is today at 14.30

http://www.parliament.uk/business/commi ... nce-16-17/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Universal Credit's progress examined

PAC Devereux,Couling,(Biffo the Bear resigned)

Thank you, A.

Now, I wonder...... will the "progress" include a mention of the 3 in 4 tenants claiming UC who are now in rent arrears, some of whom have never been in arrears before?
Or maybe they'll discuss how sanctions on housing benefit under UC apply to people who don't get a personal allowance to be sanctioned because they work?

Of course, Lord Fraud is looking in to all this, so if it's not regarded as a huge problem now, it will be once he's fixed it.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 9:33 am

Good-morning, everyone.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 9:43 am

"They were iller than we thought"ie.biparty propaganda for decades of a million not really ill
Totally shocked he was that delaying/taking money off people that have less income has such effects.
There was no mention of it before,how could this possibly happen.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 9:49 am

I didn't know you could vote on the National Exhibition Centre.What are the options?

mbc1955 · Post by **mbc1955** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 9:49 am

tinyclanger2 wrote:Memo to FTN: we have been "banging on" about Labour/Corbyn since June 25.

But, with respect, it's a subject of some considerable importance that's been in our faces constantly since June 25, and one that is not concluded yet.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 10:04 am

Debbie Abrahams response to the JRF report mentioned above

http://press.labour.org.uk/post/1476875 ... to-support" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Government must do much, much more to support low income families

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 10:07 am

I'm currently watching Owen Smith on Victoria Derbyshire. He's just railroading all over the interviewers, they can't shut him up or stop him saying what he wants to say. A very different personality than recent Labour leaders. I know some are wary of his past career, but one of the criticisms of Ed Miliband which I understood, even if I felt it was over-emphasised, was that he was a career politician, and of course the same is true of Corbyn. Owen Smith's past career at the very least gives him a different skill set and experience to draw upon, the most obvious being communication skills. The other thing that stands out, that I quite like, is that he is pretty ordinary. Yes, he's clearly from a middle class background, but he went to an ordinary comprehensive and an ordinary university and hasn't benefited from either private schooling or the elite networking of Oxford to get where he is today. He clearly has ability. He could potentially represent that something original which isn't Old or New Labour that I'm looking for. I'm not really convinced by the argument that someone elected in 2010 is a staunch Blairite. Someone with the kind of career outside politics that he has had is surely going to be their own person with their own convictions. Whether they are convictions I or anyone else in Labour can get behind, it's too early to tell, but I immediately find him much more relatable than Corbyn. I think, like Ed, it's the comprehensive school thing, which makes it an age thing as well I suppose, with older people having gone through the very different grammar/ secondary modern system. It's a bit of a cultural chasm.

Lost Soul · Post by **Lost Soul** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 10:07 am

HindleA wrote:I didn't know you could vote on the National Exhibition Centre.What are the options?

More chairs or cleaner toilets.

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 10:33 am

Apologies if this was posted last week:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... max-mosley

£200k, donation, Interesting timing.
Is it time for Watson to go, seeing as he seems to be
implicated/involved in undermining others,
is that a good quality for deputy leader?

fedup59 · Post by **fedup59** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 10:34 am

mbc1955 wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote:Memo to FTN: we have been "banging on" about Labour/Corbyn since June 25.
But, with respect, it's a subject of some considerable importance that's been in our faces constantly since June 25, and one that is not concluded yet.

I agree. I also think this is a much bigger issue than Corbyn versus Smith and is about the nature of the democracy we end up with.

Many of the arguments about the role of Labour members, and about the referendum votes, seem to me to be based on similar positions used against earlier fights for the right to vote, the right to be represented by people who know and understand what it is like to live at the bottom of the heap. People are misinformed, they don't understand the world of power and the knowledge those in power have access to when making decisions. I don't think it naive of me to answer that with - explain yourselves then.

It's my democracy too. We are not at war, we are entitled to both information and influence. If we have a lieing media, lieing politicians, participating in a shambolic decision making process, is the answer really to dismiss the electorates' influence because we don't understand the consequences and hand over more power to an unaccountable elite?

Sorry for the rant and I'm not sure whether I've actually said what I'm trying to say.

For me the increasing disenfranchisement of electorates throughout Europe was a major weakness in the EU and a reason to remain inside and fight against this, so that more benefits for the people of Europe could be gained. In the same way increased activities and influence of party members in the Labour party is the only way to strengthen its role as a representative party that actually responds to what people are trying to live through by fighting for policies that will make a difference to their lives. That means broader involvement not dismissal are needed to ensure a party grounded in more realities than what Westminster decrees are important to triangulation victories.

Maeght · Post by **Maeght** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 10:39 am

RobertSnozers wrote:Hmmm. On liveblog Smith suggesting that Corbyn has encouraged misogyny and antisemitism. Not cool Owen, not cool.

Every time I think 'OK, I'm not being fair, there's nothing to suggest he isn't decent and his espoused politics genuine', something comes up that makes me less inclined to vote for him. The immigration comment didn't help either. I know it would be good to have an alternative to Corbyn with similar politics but more likely to be accepted by media and majority of the PLP, but still not sure Smith is that candidate. I'm trying to be fair to him, I really am, but he isn't making it easy.

My last word on the subject today, promise

Like You Robert, I am not sure about Owen Smith. I'm not too bothered about what he said over 10 years ago, I blush when I recall some of the things I have said. There is no candidate who is 'whiter than white'.
But I am concerned abut somebody actually choosing to be a lobbyist.

However, I will say one thing for him: he did actually have the guts to mount a challenge. I still just do not understand why all those 'big beasts' among the 172 MPs who constantly go on about J. Corbyn being a nice man but incompetent are too afraid to stand.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 10:41 am

tinybgoat wrote:Apologies if this was posted last week:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... max-mosley

£200k, donation, Interesting timing.
Is it time for Watson to go, seeing as he seems to be
implicated/involved in undermining others,
is that a good quality for deputy leader?

The cheeky devil, when asked about staying on in his position as deputy, said he wasn't going anywhere. He had a mandate.

Sauce for the goose?

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 10:43 am

If I may say so the discussion on here right now is of top quality and nobody should feel they should stop

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 10:48 am

Maeght wrote:
RobertSnozers wrote:Hmmm. On liveblog Smith suggesting that Corbyn has encouraged misogyny and antisemitism. Not cool Owen, not cool.

Every time I think 'OK, I'm not being fair, there's nothing to suggest he isn't decent and his espoused politics genuine', something comes up that makes me less inclined to vote for him. The immigration comment didn't help either. I know it would be good to have an alternative to Corbyn with similar politics but more likely to be accepted by media and majority of the PLP, but still not sure Smith is that candidate. I'm trying to be fair to him, I really am, but he isn't making it easy.

My last word on the subject today, promise
Like You Robert, I am not sure about Owen Smith. I'm not too bothered about what he said over 10 years ago, I blush when I recall some of the things I have said. There is no candidate who is 'whiter than white'.
But I am concerned abut somebody actually choosing to be a lobbyist.

However, I will say one thing for him: he did actually have the guts to mount a challenge. I still just do not understand why all those 'big beasts' among the 172 MPs who constantly go on about J. Corbyn being a nice man but incompetent are too afraid to stand.

No guts. Couldn't face the flak. Hiding behind Eagle's skirts. Using her to test the water. Cowards. They none of them are brave enough to face what Corbyn's had to go through.

And sorry if it doesn't fit the agenda, but Owen hasn't 'just stepped in'.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 10:50 am

Morning all.

I see the arguments for grammar schools to return is gathering pace. So where's the evidence?

Time to end the ban on grammar schools

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07 ... r-schools/

Everyone sensible now accepts that teaching is best done by ability.

Certainly convinced me...

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 10:58 am

Did everyone see this from the other day? I know the Labour leadership is important but there are other things going on too...

Seven-day NHS unachievable for 20 years, expert claims

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... ert-claims

The government’s pledge to deliver a seven-day NHS will remain unachievable for 20 years because of underfunding and chronic understaffing, a leading expert has said.

There are also fears that providing more NHS services at weekends could increase the risk of death facing patients who are in hospital during the week, because fewer doctors will be on duty then.

“I’m convinced seven-day services cannot be achieved within current funding. There are huge gaps [in medical staffing rotas in hospitals already]. I think we’re 20 years away from actually being able to achieve a seven-day service given the current challenges, but I would love to be wrong,” said Prof Julian Bion, who is leading a major NHS-funded research project into the introduction of more services at weekends.

pk1 · Post by **pk1** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 11:03 am

Ed is backing Owen

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 11:08 am

https://www.caat.org.uk/issues/influenc ... arians.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This disturbs me.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 11:12 am

pk1 wrote:Ed is backing Owen

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

More fool him.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 11:13 am

pk1 wrote:Ed is backing Owen

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Maybe a not insignificant endorsement.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 11:15 am

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:If I may say so the discussion on here right now is of top quality and nobody should feel they should stop

Agreed.

I am particularly grateful to fedup - that was a brilliant post. "It's my democracy too" - Amen to that!

This current Labour contest has thrown up some very interesting things. I thought Kinnock Junior was sort of OK; he did well during the Tata Steel crisis. But since then his behaviour has been dreadful.
I'm also not impressed with the ex-shadow ministers and the NEC. I really do still think that the plan -as it has been for a year - was to topple Corbyn by any means possible; and as a result there has been some real damage done to any reputation Labour might still have as a truly democratic party.

I could be wrong, but I suspect that some of the left-wing opposition to Remain was based on the sometimes antidemocratic things the upper echelons of the EU get up to. The way the "troika" treated Greece being a case in point.
Although I still think we need to be in to reform things, that ship has sailed now - and it would be wrong to dismiss the referendum result because a democratic vote may not always get you the result you were after.

I am thinking now that we really do need PR. Yes, you can end up with the likes of Neil Hamilton in office - but when millions of people vote for a party like UKIP and don't get representation under FPTP, I can understand why they get annoyed. For every Hamilton, there's a Green or two, an Independent - maybe even half a Libdem.....

I think, despite having the Mother of Parliaments and hundreds of years of experience at this democracy lark, we're not very good at it.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 11:19 am

RobertSnozers wrote:
tinybgoat wrote:Apologies if this was posted last week:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... max-mosley

£200k, donation, Interesting timing.
Is it time for Watson to go, seeing as he seems to be
implicated/involved in undermining others,
is that a good quality for deputy leader?
Never trusted him. Was a little dismayed the party elected him so convincingly, but that's democracy I suppose. None of the deputy leader campaigns were especially good. Mike Gapes' glee at Watson's election put me on alert from the off.

To my eternal shame I voted for Watson as deputy. Thought he'd be good with the press and try to prevent some of the bullying Ed got. Seems now that it didn't worry Ed that much. All that wasted sympathy.

We all make mistakes. But not for a second time.

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 11:22 am

Don't suppose Corbyn could agree to stand down,
on proviso that he's nominated to challenge for deputy leadership?
Would that keep some supporters on board,
and piss off the plp?

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 11:23 am

There is no vacancy for deputy leader. Perhaps unfortunately.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 11:26 am

Now that Liam Fox is back in the Cabinet and Matthew Gould, ex-Ambassador to Israel, in in charge of Security in the Cabinet Office, it is essential to get answers to what happened in at least eight meetings between Adam Werritty and Gould at least some of which involved Mossad – as Cabinet Secretary Gus O’Donnell acknowledged to a parliamentary committee:

Hansard Publc Admininstration Committee 24/11/2011

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives ... -write-mp/

While our so called opposition is busy with much more important matters than keeping an eye on the nasty party.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 11:27 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:There is no vacancy for deputy leader. Perhaps unfortunately.

Never mind. Some people have long memories

One day.

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 11:29 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:There is no vacancy for deputy leader. Perhaps unfortunately.

Thanks,
Fwiw, there's a 38 degrees no confidence petition

https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/ ... der-labour