Friday 22 July 2016

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Fri 22 Jul, 2016 6:47 am

Turned out nice again mother****ers!

(NB: reference to John Cooper Clarke for cheeriness purposes; not uncalled-for rudeness
Just to be clear)

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Fri 22 Jul, 2016 6:56 am

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ly-britain" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
With this shock a new, EU-friendly Britain is born

It is far-fetched to think this will develop into anything resembling Maidan. The contrast with Ukraine in 2013 hardly needs to be described. Britain is not an autocratic state with a president who single-handedly decided to abandon links with the EU because he was put under pressure by a large neighbouring power. Britain has held a free, democratic referendum whose result cannot be swept aside and whose consequences everyone will have to live with.

Rupert Murdoch
Arron Banks
David Cameron

I don't wish to directly compare our situation with Ukraine's (which is appalling for Ukrainians) but I do wonder to what extent we have a free democracy given our press - including the BBC. I keep seeing the term "post-fact" but surely much of it is merely propaganda.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Fri 22 Jul, 2016 7:11 am

In the New European Today (and flagged in the Independent)

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/ho ... 49016.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"But what the referendum disclosed was something far more disreputable and dangerous than any twitching of net curtains in Tyneside: a vicarious racism practised by cynical rabble-rousers who, though not necessarily bigots themselves, took pleasure in tickling out bigotry in others."

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Fri 22 Jul, 2016 8:18 am

We don't have to denigrate individual voters (though some probably merit it) for all you say to be true.

It is no surprise that a majority of UK voters are unhappy and feel it profoundly. We are an alarmingly unequal society where class still holds sway.

In these circumstances the ruling elite is doing what it always does and is turning the less fortunate against themselves. The poor vs the immigrants vs the disabled vs the Scots vs Europe vs whoever.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Fri 22 Jul, 2016 8:22 am

Morning.

Well, look on the bright side, at least we aren't in the US watching Trump's appalling America First campaign.

and thanks @extankie, your kind words reflect your own generosity of mind and spirit.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Fri 22 Jul, 2016 8:25 am

@TinyC

Are you sure you weren't a member of MC5 in a previous life ?

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Fri 22 Jul, 2016 8:30 am

Is that as in American Rock Band MC5 (as opposed to 70s cover band creme brulee)?

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Fri 22 Jul, 2016 8:35 am

Yep. Kick Out The Jams M***********s.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Fri 22 Jul, 2016 8:45 am

Backstabbing. Failed.
Firing squad. Failed.
Scuttlebutt. Failed.
Tittle tattle. Failed.

Time to deploy the swift boats. (Again.)

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Fri 22 Jul, 2016 8:51 am

yahyah wrote:Yep. Kick Out The Jams M***********s.

I always preferred the 'Back In The USA' album tbh

[youtube]9DYJBPwsdK8[/youtube]

mbc1955 · Post by **mbc1955** » Fri 22 Jul, 2016 8:56 am

Good morning

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Fri 22 Jul, 2016 8:59 am

http://www.arsenalnewsreview.co.uk/re-w ... or-brexit/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I enjoyed this (in case you're interested)

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Fri 22 Jul, 2016 9:02 am

tinyclanger2 wrote:http://www.arsenalnewsreview.co.uk/re-w ... or-brexit/
I enjoyed this (in case you're interested)

Welsh Labour had scrapping Right to Buy in their May manifesto, and it is in the legislative programme they set out recently I believe.
They cut discounts last year as a precursor.

edited to add....all those working class voters in Wales didn't need to vote Leave, just vote Welsh Labour for the assembly.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Fri 22 Jul, 2016 9:06 am

Good morfternoon.

Mike Ashley running Sports Direct like 'Victorian workhouse'

MPs’ report says retailer used appalling practices in which workers were treated as commodities rather than human beings (Guardian)

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... ouse#img-1

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Fri 22 Jul, 2016 9:07 am

Toby - well done. You have managed to fox my sixties loving music fan husband.
He can normally identify most things, and will [if given the opportunity] list the band members, writer, producer zzzzzzzz...zzz...

But he didn't spot MC5 there, as it is a lot lighter sounding than what we have of them.

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Fri 22 Jul, 2016 9:15 am

Full album (only 30 mins long) here. Title track is a cover of the Chuck Berry song, preumably as anti establshment band they meant it in the same vein as Springsteens 'Born In The USA' [youtube]l4J26ryw4aw[/youtube]

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Fri 22 Jul, 2016 9:30 am

We are all willfully ignorant about something; the key is to be aware of what one is ignorant about. It's tricky, but I tend not to assume that people in general are ignorant by mistake.

edited: red highlighting added for clarity

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Fri 22 Jul, 2016 9:35 am

Morning all.

Actual news ( I think was the expression used)

World First
‏@World_First
*U.K. COMPOSITE PMI PLUNGES TO 7-YEAR LOW AFTER BREXIT VOTE

Michael Hewson ‏@mhewson_CMC 4m4 minutes ago
UK Manufacturing PMI (Jul) comes in at 49.1 exp: 48.7, Prev: 52.1
UK Services PMI (Jul) comes in at 47.4 exp: 48.8, Prev: 52.3

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Fri 22 Jul, 2016 9:42 am

Overstretched civil service being set up to fail on Brexit, says NAO boss Amyas Morse

https://www.civilserviceworld.com/artic ... myas-morse

"As of December 2015, civil service headcount was down nearly one-fifth since 2010," he said. "With such a large portfolio of major projects, I frequently see a 'muddling through' at the expense of a real, business-like, managerial approach to policy implementation.

"A 'go for it' heroic effort is prized at the expense of clearly thought-out strategic prioritisation."

Morse said he felt officials were unable to push back against demands for new initiatives from ministers who were keen to make a mark during their brief time in office, leading to officials "robbing Peter to pay Paul" in a bid to please politicians.

"Imagine the oddity of a new minister standing up in the House to say: 'I have no new policy initiatives to announce because my department is at capacity in terms of what it can do well, so I am diligently carrying on the initiatives started by my predecessor in an effort to bring them in on time and on budget.'

"Whilst my staff and I would find this immensely refreshing and so might the taxpayer, in our current political culture that would be met with a few raised eyebrows."

Quite.

What is more important - converting thousands more schools into academies unnecessarily or the fairer funding reform that has now been pushed back. Again.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Fri 22 Jul, 2016 9:56 am

Bi election result in Reading Southcote! [Council Estate.]

Compared to May 2015. Up from 63.9% May 2016.

LAB: 64.1% (+21.4)
CON: 26.1% (-8.)
LDEM: 5.3% (+1.0)
GRN: 4.5% (+0.1)
No UKIP candidate from 2015.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Fri 22 Jul, 2016 10:05 am

RogerOThornhill wrote:Morning all.

Actual news ( I think was the expression used)

World First
‏@World_First
*U.K. COMPOSITE PMI PLUNGES TO 7-YEAR LOW AFTER BREXIT VOTE

Michael Hewson ‏@mhewson_CMC 4m4 minutes ago
UK Manufacturing PMI (Jul) comes in at 49.1 exp: 48.7, Prev: 52.1
UK Services PMI (Jul) comes in at 47.4 exp: 48.8, Prev: 52.3

This comment under the G business blog is probably right.

presumably the point of hitting the pause button on Brexit, as May has done, is to make the impact as incremental as possible and so politically as palatable as possible for all sides:

the economy will slowly and steadily slide, but no more big drops that would have to make it even into the Sun, and, at the same time, a very slow motion back-pedalling from restrictive immigration controls so as to minimise the upset for Leavers

in the end, most everyone will still end up somewhere they didn't want to go, but there will be much less outrage....and so continued Tory government...

my bold.

As a colleague of mine used to say, compromise means nobody gets what they want.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Fri 22 Jul, 2016 10:05 am

JonnyT1234 wrote:Backstabbing. Failed.
Firing squad. Failed.
Scuttlebutt. Failed.
Tittle tattle. Failed.

Time to deploy the swift boats. (Again.)

It's "stirring" now.

Do keep up!

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Fri 22 Jul, 2016 10:17 am

This is not good.

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2016/07 ... ion-detent" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 22 Jul, 2016 10:30 am

Attempts to get me to "fuck off out of the party " equally failed,as ever.Just for balance.
No Surrender.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Fri 22 Jul, 2016 10:31 am

Britain Elects
‏@britainelects

Hackney Central (Hackney) result:

LAB: 75.2% (+11.2)
GRN: 9.9% (-13.0)
LDEM: 6.3% (-1.1)
CON: 5.6% (-0.2)
IND: 3.1% (+3.1)

nickyinnorfolk · Post by **nickyinnorfolk** » Fri 22 Jul, 2016 10:34 am

From the Indy - sounds feasible.

The more time goes by, the more plausible it becomes that the UK may never actually leave the European Union.

Leaving the EU is so difficult, and the consequences are so economically damaging, that it may be easier for prime minister Theresa May's government to endlessly delay the process rather than to actually leave.

Morgan Stanley economists Jacob Nell and Melanie Baker published a fascinating note to investors this morning in which they attempt to figure out how the UK will actually leave the EU, and what the UK's post-Brexit relationship with Europe will look like.

....

1. The Conservative government has a small majority of just 12 seats.

2. Prime minister Theresa May is pro-Remain.

3. A majority of MPs are pro-Remain. "Parliament had a clear pro-Remain bias since over 70% of all MPs and over 50% of Conservative MPs supported Remain," according to Morgan Stanley.

4. The government faces a general election in 2020, right after the UK — in theory — leaves the EU.

5. One million UK voters live in EU countries. The vast majority of them will vote against any government that threatens their EU residency status.

6. Reduced access to the single market will hurt the economy. The mere prospect of it is already triggering a recession in the second half of this year.

7. Do the Tories really want to go into the 2020 election defending a policy that hurts the economy and increases unemployment?

8. The EU will not offer the UK a "special deal" featuring full access to the single market but control of UK borders because such a deal would encourage other nations to leave. Nationalist movements, and anti-EU sentiment, are on the rise across Europe.

9. The EU can withdraw the UK's bank "passport" that gives UK financial services firms access to the single market. Do the Tories want to go into 2020 defending a policy that decimates The City, which (according to Morgan Stanley) pays 11% of the UK's entire tax base?

10. Triggering Article 50 is reversible! Not many people know this. But the UK can formally trigger its Article 50 request and then withdraw the request before Brexit actually takes place, if the country wants to.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 48816.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Fri 22 Jul, 2016 10:47 am

: Cn9IvECW8AAiLZn.jpg (96.93 KiB) Viewed 11238 times

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Fri 22 Jul, 2016 10:52 am

Politicians have allowed xenophobia, Islamophobia and antisemitism to enter the mainstream as a result of their toxic and divisive campaigning, according to Lady Warsi.

The Conservative peer and former party co-chair told the Guardian she was deeply worried about the current political climate, claiming a surge in “respectable racism” was feeding the far right.

“I was still disgusted but more comfortable with the racism of the 70s and 80s that was overt and thuggish, than this new form of respectable xenophobia where it is done in political circles, journalism and academia,” she said. (Politics Live, Guardian)

I know how she feels. The "respectable racism" to which she (Sayeeda Warsi) refers is, I believe, the most dangerous kind of racism - giving, as it does, coded "instructions\permission from above" which can be disowned or denied. Horrible.

Edited to add -

I would also add other types of hate crimes - it's not just racism.

Edited (again) - typo

nickyinnorfolk · Post by **nickyinnorfolk** » Fri 22 Jul, 2016 11:01 am

RobertSnozers wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ly-britain" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
With this shock a new, EU-friendly Britain is born

It is far-fetched to think this will develop into anything resembling Maidan. The contrast with Ukraine in 2013 hardly needs to be described. Britain is not an autocratic state with a president who single-handedly decided to abandon links with the EU because he was put under pressure by a large neighbouring power. Britain has held a free, democratic referendum whose result cannot be swept aside and whose consequences everyone will have to live with.
Rupert Murdoch
Arron Banks
David Cameron

I don't wish to directly compare our situation with Ukraine's (which is appalling for Ukrainians) but I do wonder to what extent we have a free democracy given our press - including the BBC. I keep seeing the term "post-fact" but surely much of it is merely propaganda.
Whenever I hear interviews with anyone with any authority (e.g. the French diplomat on Today yesterday morning) or Leave voters (the ignorant woman from Tyneside on PM yesterday evening) it reinforces my view that Britain voted to leave based on a mixture of fantasy and outright lies combined with latent bigotry.

What we call democracy is sometimes little more than mob rule. It certainly doesn't bear much relation to democracy as envisioned by JS Mill etc.

I heard the PM programme as well and that daft woman. She sounded as if she was repeating tabloid nonsense about the EU 'ordering us about'. Another woman from the same area - which has had massive aid from the EU - voted remain and said she'd fallen out with members of her family over it.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Fri 22 Jul, 2016 11:03 am

RobertSnozers wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote:We are all willfully ignorant about something; the key is to be aware of what one is ignorant about. It's tricky, but I tend not to assume that people in general are ignorant by mistake.
I suppose. But if it's possible for some people not to swallow everything they are told by a narrow range of sources, why can't more? OK, perhaps I'm being too unkind, but much of the evidence I have seen suggests that a great many people didn't really know much about what they were voting for in the referendum. This is in part the fault of the campaigns - both were dreadful, and the Leave campaign was one of the most wilfully mendacious political campaigns I've seen - but this was a massively complex issue in which many seem to have voted for massively simplistic reasons. And yet we're told that people don't trust politicians and trust journalists only a little more, so you'd think that would lead to them check what they hear and read. Instead what seems to have happened is 'they're all lying equally so I'll make my own mind up based on my gut feeling'. Which is not an intelligent way to make decisions about complex issues.

I completely agree - to paraphrase myself, I think political ignorance is largely the result of an active decision not to bother, but to simply give into kneejerk reactions instilled during one's earliest years.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Fri 22 Jul, 2016 11:03 am

RobertSnozers wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote:We are all willfully ignorant about something; the key is to be aware of what one is ignorant about. It's tricky, but I tend not to assume that people in general are ignorant by mistake.
I suppose. But if it's possible for some people not to swallow everything they are told by a narrow range of sources, why can't more? OK, perhaps I'm being too unkind, but much of the evidence I have seen suggests that a great many people didn't really know much about what they were voting for in the referendum. This is in part the fault of the campaigns - both were dreadful, and the Leave campaign was one of the most wilfully mendacious political campaigns I've seen - but this was a massively complex issue in which many seem to have voted for massively simplistic reasons. And yet we're told that people don't trust politicians and trust journalists only a little more, so you'd think that would lead to them check what they hear and read. Instead what seems to have happened is 'they're all lying equally so I'll make my own mind up based on my gut feeling'. Which is not an intelligent way to make decisions about complex issues.

I've heard a myriad of reasons for why people voted remain, but it seems as though every single person who voted leave, including my brother-in-law, did so in order to "get my country back". The repetition of this exact phrase is startling. Although well aware of the long-term drip, drip of anti-immigrant rhetoric in the tabloids over many years, I'm at a loss as to quite how this particular phrase became quite so ubiquitous. I believe it's an Americanism, a Tea Party totemic slogan in the face of progressive politics. But how did it end up over here as the incoherent, virtually meaningless anthem of Brexit? What country, exactly, do these people want back? 1950's America?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dorian-de ... 99411.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I guess I'm back on the Atlantic Bridge conspiracy again. The influence of the US far right has never felt so stiflingly close. Got our country back? Think we may have just lost it for good to the chilling elite of corporate America.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Fri 22 Jul, 2016 11:07 am

Am worried - among other things - about becoming Little China.

nickyinnorfolk · Post by **nickyinnorfolk** » Fri 22 Jul, 2016 11:21 am

Boris - yet again justifying Evil Edna May's trust in him as FS. (Unless of course she's deliberately setting him up to crash and burn.)

Boris Johnson 'outed' journalist as an MI6 spy 'for a laugh'
'It's a physical threat to them if it's believed they're working for British intelligence,' says Dominic Lawson

The new Foreign Secretary, Boris Johnson, has been accused of putting lives in danger after he published an article suggesting a former colleague was a spy "for a laugh".

While editor of The Spectator in 2001, Mr Johnson released an article naming a secret service agent using the pseudonym “Smallbrow” as the Daily Mail journalist, Dominic Lawson.

The article was based on allegations made in a book by a former spy, Richard Tomlinson. Mr Tomlinson claimed Mr Lawson, who was then editor of the SundayTelegraph, used to provide cover for British secret agents.

.....

"He knew me, we were friendly. It was intensely annoying,” Mr Lawson said.

“And apart from anything else, if you're running a newspaper with foreign correspondents in strange parts of the world, as I was then, it's potentially a physical threat to them if it's believed that they're working for British intelligence.

“You can imagine how angry I was.

"I rang him up, but there was just this sense of ‘Never mind, Dommers, I just did it for a laugh’," Mr Lawson said.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 48481.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Fri 22 Jul, 2016 11:31 am

Shh. Don't tell any Brexiters that taking back control of their country means handing it lock, stock and barrel to multinationals, their lobbyists and their legal experts to rewrite all our laws in their favour.

But, freeeeedddddddooooooom.

nickyinnorfolk · Post by **nickyinnorfolk** » Fri 22 Jul, 2016 11:33 am

RobertSnozers wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote:
RobertSnozers wrote: I suppose. But if it's possible for some people not to swallow everything they are told by a narrow range of sources, why can't more? OK, perhaps I'm being too unkind, but much of the evidence I have seen suggests that a great many people didn't really know much about what they were voting for in the referendum. This is in part the fault of the campaigns - both were dreadful, and the Leave campaign was one of the most wilfully mendacious political campaigns I've seen - but this was a massively complex issue in which many seem to have voted for massively simplistic reasons. And yet we're told that people don't trust politicians and trust journalists only a little more, so you'd think that would lead to them check what they hear and read. Instead what seems to have happened is 'they're all lying equally so I'll make my own mind up based on my gut feeling'. Which is not an intelligent way to make decisions about complex issues.

I completely agree - to paraphrase myself, I think political ignorance is largely the result of an active decision not to bother, but to simply give into kneejerk reactions instilled during one's earliest years.
Mill thought that mass participation in politics would render the electorate competent to fulfil their responsibility. I think we can probably say with certainty now that he was wrong.

To be fair to Mill, he didn't foresee the role of the tabloid press - although that was very much a factor even before universal suffrage. The characters in The Ragged Trousered Philanthropists (1914) all read 'The Obscurer' and parrot its opinions.

It'd help if kids at school were taught to treat what they read or hear in the media with scepticism. Of course political discussions would never happen as that would be seen as 'brainwashing', as if that's something the media never do ...

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Fri 22 Jul, 2016 11:33 am

RobertSnozers wrote:Mill thought that mass participation in politics would render the electorate competent to fulfil their responsibility. I think we can probably say with certainty now that he was wrong.

Not really. The referendum was anti-politics, not politics. If anything it demonstrates even more that Joe Public needs to seize control back of the distribution of information and political discourse from the establishment that has been its despotic gatekeeper for decades more than ever.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Fri 22 Jul, 2016 11:40 am

Why Corbyn so terrifies the Guardian

A paradigm shift typically ocurred, Kuhn argued, when a new generation of scholars and researchers exposed to the rival theory felt sufficiently frustrated by this inertia and had reached sufficiently senior posts that they could launch an assault on the old theory. At that point, the proponents of the traditional theory faced a crisis. The scientific establishment would resist, often aggressively, but at some point the fortifications protecting the old theory would crumble and collapse. Then suddenly almost everyone would switch to the new theory, treating the old theory as if it were some relic of the dark ages.

Science and politics are, of course, not precisely analagous. Nonetheless, I would suggest this is a useful way of understanding what we see happening to the British left at the moment. A younger generation no longer accepts the assumptions of neoliberalism that have guided and enriched an elite for nearly four decades.

<Snip>

Corbyn and his supporters threaten a paradigm shift. The old elites, whether in the Labour parliamentary party or the Guardian editorial offices, sense the danger, even if they lack the necessary awareness to appreciate Corbyn’s significance. They will fight tooth and nail to protect what they have. They will do so even if their efforts create so much anger and resentment they risk unleashing darker political forces.

Putting into words (the whole post, not my extract above) what I have been saying about the PLP hearing but not listening to what Corbyn's winning the leadership election actually means.

Edit: removed a stray Q

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Fri 22 Jul, 2016 11:42 am

Re the above discussion, Mencken's famous quotation comes to mind yet again.

(ie "democracy means people should be given what they want, and deserve to get it it good and hard")

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Fri 22 Jul, 2016 11:57 am

I can't begin to put into words how angry this is making me...

An immediate challenge for Jo Johnson will be to steady the UK research base, which will suffer significant damage by extracting itself from the EU. In the longer term much will depend on the nature of Britain’s re-negotiated relationship, but ill effects are already bubbling to the surface. Reports are coming in of a blight on applications by UK-based researchers to the EU funding under the Horizon 2020 program, simply because European collaborators cannot be confident that their UK counterparts will remain eligible for funding over the lifetime of new projects. This may be mitigated if the Minister can step in to underwrite the funding of any UK-based partner in joint applications, but he needs to act promptly.

The referendum campaign and result has also unsettled EU nationals working in the UK. Those who have been here for at least five years have a protected right of residency but more than one of my senior colleagues has spoken of sensing a colder mood towards foreigners. The smartest universities around the world will have seen an opportunity and are already drawing up shortlists of star researchers for a recruitment drive in what now looks like a buyer’s market for UK-based talent.

Early-career researchers from Europe who are currently working in the UK but have not yet to accrued five years of residency face more insecurity. Many are in short-term postdoctoral research positions, and those near the end of their contracts will be scanning the job-market for their next position. Given the mood change and present uncertainty, how many will gamble on the UK?

But, freeeeeddddddoooooomm!

Edit: to paraphrase something I said the other day, I'm feeling at the moment as if someone has just blown both my testicles off with a shotgun and is now blaming me for the consequences of their pulling the trigger.

fedup59 · Post by **fedup59** » Fri 22 Jul, 2016 12:00 pm

Morning all

I think we're still in danger of blaming an electorate for ignorance in a society owned by an elite. We are lied to by the bulk of the media, educated not to think critically but to question our own ability to think at all, drowned in frenetic noise of horrible things that are happening around us and then steered deliberately towards convenient enemies, who are then described as people not like us.

If you think about it we have marches against policies that are not reported, participation in political processes that are deemed illegitimate because of ignorance/lack of understanding, union organisation and action curtailed and pilloried as lacking accountability. Media organisations don't report news they filter, Interpret, manage and explain on our behalf. When, in those circumstances, I make a stupid choice, I reckon the solution is to change the system rather than take away my right to participate.

It's a bit like making economic decisions without undertaking some sort of structural analysis and that would be so obviously unfair that we would never do something that inhumane ...would we?

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Fri 22 Jul, 2016 12:07 pm

fedup59 wrote:Media organisations don't report news they filter, Interpret, manage and explain on our behalf.

You missed out the worst of that litany of crimes against reporting - they also create 'news'. E.g. Today's "Corbyn denies bullying". The Guardian were at it constantly during the prior leadership election.

Make false or twisted accusations. Then report denial of those false or twisted accusations as if it's legitimate news. Then follow up with article analysing the implications of the accusation as if it were true.

Makes me sick every time I see it (for anyone, not Corbyn - e.g. Smith's "I'm normal" earlier in the week). Which is far, far too often.

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Fri 22 Jul, 2016 12:18 pm

Hammond is going to 'reset' economic policy.

Why not go the whole hog and use the system restore facility, or a back up disc ?

: ScreenShot01500.jpg (70.24 KiB) Viewed 11040 times

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Fri 22 Jul, 2016 12:22 pm

TobyLatimer wrote:Hammond is going to 'reset' economic policy.

Why not go the whole hog and use the system restore facility, or a back up disc ?
ScreenShot01500.jpg

They're Tories. They corrupted it.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Fri 22 Jul, 2016 12:25 pm

So, the swift boating is hitting peak swing with Owen Smith now jumping aboard to join Eagle and McGinn.

I'm back to hoping that Corbyn knocks the shit out of Smith in the election if this is the type of gutter politics they've willingly opted to deploy in their effort to beat him. I hope Smith loses and loses big time.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Fri 22 Jul, 2016 12:28 pm

https://www.buzzfeed.com/jamieross/a-la ... xiRdnWx3lK" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A Labour MP has claimed Jeremy Corbyn threatened to call his dad after he publicly criticised the party leader.
Conor McGinn, whose dad, Pat, was a councillor for Irish republican party Sinn Féin, made the claim on Twitter on Thursday evening and later said he thought Corbyn was attempting to “bully [him] into submission”

This is just weird. It's denied by a Corbyn spokesman. Odd thing to make up though. Was it a joke? Corbyn seems to have a very odd sense of humour. That whole thing on the Vice documentary about signing apples from his orchard. Was that serious? So hard to tell.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Fri 22 Jul, 2016 12:29 pm

JonnyT1234 wrote:
fedup59 wrote:Media organisations don't report news they filter, Interpret, manage and explain on our behalf.
You missed out the worst of that litany of crimes against reporting - they also create 'news'. E.g. Today's "Corbyn denies bullying". The Guardian were at it constantly during the prior leadership election.

Make false or twisted accusations. Then report denial of those false or twisted accusations as if it's legitimate news. Then follow up with article analysing the implications of the accusation as if it were true.

Makes me sick every time I see it (for anyone, not Corbyn - e.g. Smith's "I'm normal" earlier in the week). Which is far, far too often.

"Angela Eagle had her office window smashed in by a Corbynista" being a prime example of this. Still reported as unchallenged fact yesterday

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Fri 22 Jul, 2016 12:33 pm

RobertSnozers wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote:We are all willfully ignorant about something; the key is to be aware of what one is ignorant about. It's tricky, but I tend not to assume that people in general are ignorant by mistake.
I suppose. But if it's possible for some people not to swallow everything they are told by a narrow range of sources, why can't more? OK, perhaps I'm being too unkind, but much of the evidence I have seen suggests that a great many people didn't really know much about what they were voting for in the referendum. This is in part the fault of the campaigns - both were dreadful, and the Leave campaign was one of the most wilfully mendacious political campaigns I've seen - but this was a massively complex issue in which many seem to have voted for massively simplistic reasons. And yet we're told that people don't trust politicians and trust journalists only a little more, so you'd think that would lead to them check what they hear and read. Instead what seems to have happened is 'they're all lying equally so I'll make my own mind up based on my gut feeling'. Which is not an intelligent way to make decisions about complex issues.

Yes. In the end I think most people from both sides of the referendum would agree that a binary question that can be carried by 51:49 is an unsuitable tool to resolve something as complex as the UK's relationships with Europe.

Indeed, it took someone as arrogantly stupid as Dave to attempt it.

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Fri 22 Jul, 2016 12:37 pm

Yeah, because riding on the Westminster gravy train is exactly the same as working in sweat shop conditions to earn less than the minimum wage.

Where ambulances are called on a daily basis and a lady gave birth in the toilet.

Get a fucking grip.

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Post by **refitman** » Fri 22 Jul, 2016 12:39 pm

Does anyone think that Paul McGinn may have (wilfully?) misinterpreted a joke? Regarding the phoning of his father.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Fri 22 Jul, 2016 12:41 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:Am worried - among other things - about becoming Little China.

I'm afraid the US already has us firmly by the throat.