Wednesday 27th July 2016

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 4:38 pm

ephemerid wrote:And - as the atmosphere here remains a bit tetchy I'll bugger off again, I think.

Always good to read you, my friend

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 4:40 pm

"Corbyn acted first: by sacking Benn in the middle of the night" after Benn had leaked his betrayal of Corbyn to the press and admitted that he had betrayed him, late at night, with the aim of forcing Corbyn's hand or face being made to look weak and ineffective, having previously trailed in the Telegraph weeks earlier exactly how he and his fellow plotters would do this, thus triggering the very accurately described coup against Corbyn's leadership. You neglected to add.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 4:41 pm

And further to my last post. It's been proved that selecting locals to stand for election proves far more successful for Labour than parachuting in favourites and those that agree most with the party line.

It will be interesting to see what happens.

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 4:44 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:... Once the campaign was lost, Corbyn's first response on BBC Radio 4 the next morning was to suggest that Brexit meant Brexit and article 50 should be invoked immediately. This was a giveaway sign of his general attitude...

This is not a giveaway sign of his general attitude from the outside without a more immediate context, SH. For example was Cameron's initial response already out there? Was it a statement or an answer to a posed question? On one thing I do agree with him however, dithering over Article 50 or kicking it into the long grass is not acceptable, no matter how much I disagree with the result. I just wish some constitutional rebuttal had been available at the time. For this I hold Cameron mostly to blame but do not excuse Labour for voting with the government for a referendum after the GE.

I know you repeat that Corbyn or people close to him obstructed the campaign, which again seems largely uncorroborated (no doubt you shall advise otherwise) when from my perception,, notwithstanding limited media attention, those tasked with the role and those who subsequently shouted loudest were invisible during the campaign. I do not and cannot hold him responsible for Labour's demise.

Whatever you think of the leader, collective responsibility is shared.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 4:44 pm

Temulkar wrote:
Rebecca wrote:Had an email from Owen Smith.
He grew up in South Wales during the miners' strike.
That's when he decided to become a corporate lobbyist and pr man for big pharma,sorry ,should have written,that's when he came alive politically.
He didnt actually grow up on the coalfields, of course, so he didnt see the kids he was growing up with clothes slowly fall apart at school, or take beef and salmon spread sarnies down to the picket line at lunctimes. Both things to be fair to him Adam Price went through + did (he was a full on militant socialist as a kid) but I would say a lot of us stuck in the middle of it came of age politically at that point. Smith's only a year older than me, so I can understand where he is coming from even if it strikes me as rather shallow.

My great uncle was senior bod in NACODS in Wales, when the NACODS strike was called off, it was the first time I saw a grown man cry that I can remember. We all knew the NUM had lost at that point. IT was devastating, but I wouldnt have the mines back for love nor money - the community though, the sense of collective responsibility, the valleys have never recovered, and that was the crime. Anyone who remembers what it was like before 84 can see that chain still around our necks.

Too lazy to check. I read he was born in England. Grew up in Barry? Is that right?

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 4:45 pm

JonnyT1234 wrote:"Corbyn acted first: by sacking Benn in the middle of the night" after Benn had leaked his betrayal of Corbyn to the press and admitted that he had betrayed him, late at night, with the aim of forcing Corbyn's hand or face being made to look weak and ineffective, having previously trailed in the Telegraph weeks earlier exactly how he and his fellow plotters would do this, thus triggering the very accurately described coup against Corbyn's leadership. You neglected to add.

after MPs had resigned from the shadow cabinet after Jamie Reed announced he wouldn't serve under Corbyn as the result was being announced that Corbyn was to be leader.

But. Apart from that. There was no coup, nothing was planned prior to the EU referendum.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 4:48 pm

Those of us who read the Welsh press will know that Smith has not just been converted to the cause of employee rights.

Why presume malice all the time ? Smith has made it very clear, in the past, that he is in favour of fighting the Tories on their attempts to weaken trade unions and worker rights and the dangers of right wing policies.

Let's try and stick to the facts ? I promise I'll try too.

July 2015
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/news- ... en-9672360" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

June 2015
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales ... en-9520208" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

January 2015
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales ... ys-8416727" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Sept 2013
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales ... gb-5824826" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That's just from the Western Mail, probably Wales' biggest paper, online site.

March 2015
http://www.ier.org.uk/news/commons-zhcs-wales" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

2012 - just to show he has thought about patriotism & nationalism other than to make a dig at Corbyn.
http://www.iwa.wales/click/2012/09/labo ... -politics/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 4:51 pm

RobertSnozers wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
RobertSnozers wrote:What's your definition of a coup?

A sudden, violent, and illegal seizure of power from a government is my definition.

So use of the word 'coup' is inapposite in almost every way. This isn't against a government. It isn't violent (save for the odd brick through a window) and it isn't illegal (it is a challenge under the rules).
Mass resignations timed for media effect and repeated demands without any backing in law or process for the elected leader to resign along with a spurious and unconstitutional no-confidence vote do not constitute a challenge under the rules.

I am not sure why you think asking a leader to resign is a coup, is unlawful, or lacks process.

I hereby ask Theresa May to resign.

And the fact that the no confidence vote doesn't have any constitutional effect doesn't mean it was wrongful. Mps can express a collective view through a vote on anything they like (as can we).

And now, he is being challenged under the rules. Just not a coup. Coups don't usually involve counting lots of votes.

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 4:51 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
Temulkar wrote:
Rebecca wrote:Had an email from Owen Smith.
He grew up in South Wales during the miners' strike.
That's when he decided to become a corporate lobbyist and pr man for big pharma,sorry ,should have written,that's when he came alive politically.
He didnt actually grow up on the coalfields, of course, so he didnt see the kids he was growing up with clothes slowly fall apart at school, or take beef and salmon spread sarnies down to the picket line at lunctimes. Both things to be fair to him Adam Price went through + did (he was a full on militant socialist as a kid) but I would say a lot of us stuck in the middle of it came of age politically at that point. Smith's only a year older than me, so I can understand where he is coming from even if it strikes me as rather shallow.

My great uncle was senior bod in NACODS in Wales, when the NACODS strike was called off, it was the first time I saw a grown man cry that I can remember. We all knew the NUM had lost at that point. IT was devastating, but I wouldnt have the mines back for love nor money - the community though, the sense of collective responsibility, the valleys have never recovered, and that was the crime. Anyone who remembers what it was like before 84 can see that chain still around our necks.
Too lazy to check. I read he was born in England. Grew up in Barry? Is that right?

Yeah his dad is a well respected historian - a lot on 20th century stuff. I was born in Wiltshire, so Im not going to hold that against him, the welsh diaspoara get everywhere.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 4:53 pm

Temulkar wrote:My great uncle was senior bod in NACODS in Wales, when the NACODS strike was called off, it was the first time I saw a grown man cry that I can remember. We all knew the NUM had lost at that point. IT was devastating, but I wouldnt have the mines back for love nor money - the community though, the sense of collective responsibility, the valleys have never recovered, and that was the crime. Anyone who remembers what it was like before 84 can see that chain still around our necks.

Amen to all of that as someone with several hundred years worth of Cumbrian/Northumbrian mining on one side of my family. Tellingly, it's that destruction of community that New Labour and the right of the Labour today also still just do not get. Excuse my French, but fuck the mines. I'm delighted I'm not down one of them right now and never will be.

It was the miners. It was their families. It was their culture that Thatcher destroyed. Not (just) the mines.

As often Liverpudlian maudlin as it was, it was this that was the crux of the Boys from the Blackstuff too. It's what UKIP have been able to exploit - the sense of abandonment of people's culture by New Labour.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 4:58 pm

I wish people would be less critical/not spin untruths about Smith, it is almost making me support him as I feel forced to defend him from what isn't true.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 5:00 pm

: CNz_t8bWUAAIAJ3.jpg (169.35 KiB) Viewed 8519 times

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 5:00 pm

Here are a few policies - some look familiar....

Make companies publish equal pay audits; ban zero-hour contracts; abolish employment tribunal fees; unfair dismissal rights from day one.
Work towards free childcare for all; introduce a full living wage (£10/hour at current rates).
Abolish the bedroom tax; scrap the benefits cap; give councils power to cap private rents.
Build 100,000 COUNCIL houses a year (this is specific - not just X number of "new homes").
Renationalise the NHS; renationalise rail; renationalise the Post Office.
Introduce a fund to help train working-class people to become MPs.
10-point environment manifesto including community-owned energy.

There are lots more.

They are Corbyn's.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 5:03 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
CNz_t8bWUAAIAJ3.jpg

The fact that the Guardian used very close variants of each of those headlines at the time is when I finally gave up on the paper as a reliable source of information about anything. It hasn't got any better since, has it.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 5:10 pm

Owen Smith warning that Brexit Tories would 'absolutely shred workers rights'' on June 2nd.
https://www.politicshome.com/news/europ ... 99-tory-pm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Owen Smith April 2015 on Twitter ''good to be with Carwyn Jones & TU colleagues, a reminder of why we need a Labour govt to protect workers rights

Owen Smith on steel workers pension rights
http://www.itv.com/news/update/2016-05- ... -pensions/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

He's also campaigned on behalf of women who will lose out twice on their pensions.
https://twitter.com/OwenSmith_MP" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 5:10 pm

JonnyT1234 wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:
CNz_t8bWUAAIAJ3.jpg
The fact that the Guardian used very close variants of each of those headlines at the time is when I finally gave up on the paper as a reliable source of information about anything. It hasn't got any better since, has it.

That post was from Private Eye. The worrying thing is you rarely if ever see his actual words anywhere in the press or media.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 5:13 pm

yahyah wrote:I wish people would be less critical/not spin untruths about Smith, it is almost making me support him as I feel forced to defend him from what isn't true.

I wish the same for Corbyn as the post above demonstrates.

Rebecca · Post by **Rebecca** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 5:14 pm

yahyah wrote:I wish people would be less critical/not spin untruths about Smith, it is almost making me support him as I feel forced to defend him from what isn't true.

Are we not to criticise Smith then?
I said I don't trust him.I don't,sorry.
He is a pr man,and you do not get to be a top level corporate lobbyist for pharma without being as slick as shit.
Anyway,it's probably just as well you left Labour.
What with having to support Corbyn because he is criticised and lied about,then doing the same for Smith,your head would be spinning like that scary girl in the movie!
As my mum used to say,it will all come out in the wash.We will see what happens in September.
And if the Labour MPs rally round,do their bloody job,support the leader and fight the tories.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 5:18 pm

I guess the lack of honest reporting is why there is a massive disconnect between those who mainly get their news from the papers and the BBC and those who have been to hear Corbyn speak and are able to spread the word.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 5:20 pm

Didn't Ed have a policy that workers would only be allowed to be on zero hours contracts for an initial three months, then would have to be shifted onto regular contracts ?

Ed certainly said he'd abolish the Bedroom Tax if Labour won...a point there that Labour does need to win elections.

Surely they are policies to be supported if they are fought for by a Labour leader, even if that leader isn't Corbyn if the membership vote for Smith ? They are good if Corbyn puts them forward, not if Smith does ? Corbyn can't be a Blairite Red Tory, and put forward some of those policies.

Jonny thinks the PLP will stand in Smith's way if he gets elected, try and block those policies.
Sadly, very likely. Leopards don't change their spots.
If Smith wins, wouldn't it be sensible, as Sanders has done in the US, to get behind him and help push those things through. If factions unite, they will be stronger.

People are going to have shift their positions. Or it will be disaster.
Who will suffer ? It is obvious.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 5:21 pm

And I don't understand those who say Blair hasn't had a hand in what's been happening.

From eleven months ago.

http://indy100.independent.co.uk/articl ... byEqU4e8He" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And blow me down, in the same section that shows the Private Eye take on the media twisting what Corbyn says, is the headline "Corbyn says Tony Blair Should be Tried for War Crimes."

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 5:24 pm

yahyah wrote:Didn't Ed have a policy that workers would only be allowed to be on zero hours contracts for an initial three months, then would have to be shifted onto regular contracts ?

Ed certainly said he'd abolish the Bedroom Tax if Labour won...a point there that Labour does need to win elections.

Surely if they are policies are to be supported if they are fought for by a Labour leader, even if that leader isn't Corbyn if the membership vote for Smith ?

Jonny thinks the PLP will stand in Smith's way if he gets elected, try and block those policies.
If Smith wins, wouldn't it be sensible, as Sanders has done in the US, to get behind him and help push those things through. If factions unite, they will be stronger.

People are going to have shift their positions. Or it will be disaster.
Who will suffer ?

[My bold] But therein lies the rub. Who is refusing to co-operate? Who do you think will dig their heels in and refuse?

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 5:28 pm

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yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 5:28 pm

Rebecca wrote:
yahyah wrote:I wish people would be less critical/not spin untruths about Smith, it is almost making me support him as I feel forced to defend him from what isn't true.
Are we not to criticise Smith then?
I said I don't trust him.I don't,sorry.
He is a pr man,and you do not get to be a top level corporate lobbyist for pharma without being as slick as shit.
Anyway,it's probably just as well you left Labour.
What with having to support Corbyn because he is criticised and lied about,then doing the same for Smith,your head would be spinning like that scary girl in the movie!
As my mum used to say,it will all come out in the wash.We will see what happens in September.
And if the Labour MPs rally round,do their bloody job,support the leader and fight the tories.

Criticise where it is deserved.

But posting that he doesn't seem to have cared about worker rights, something patently inaccurate, is not acceptable surely.

Maybe it is because of the parochial nature of politics, and an over reliance on Twitter and social media. He had a lot more coverage in the Welsh press earlier in the day, so people know that he has been vocal on employment rights, pensions, steel jobs, etc.

Stick to the facts Man, as the old comedy sketch said. Corbyn wouldn't want disinformation posted, and we all feel aggrieved when he gets maligned.

Rebecca · Post by **Rebecca** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 5:30 pm

yahyah wrote:Didn't Ed have a policy that workers would only be allowed to be on zero hours contracts for an initial three months, then would have to be shifted onto regular contracts ?

Ed certainly said he'd abolish the Bedroom Tax if Labour won...a point there that Labour does need to win elections.

Surely they are policies to be supported if they are fought for by a Labour leader, even if that leader isn't Corbyn if the membership vote for Smith ? They are good if Corbyn puts them forward, not if Smith does ? Corbyn can't be a Blairite Red Tory, and put forward some of those policies.

Jonny thinks the PLP will stand in Smith's way if he gets elected, try and block those policies.
Sadly, very likely. Leopards don't change their spots.
If Smith wins, wouldn't it be sensible, as Sanders has done in the US, to get behind him and help push those things through. If factions unite, they will be stronger.

People are going to have shift their positions. Or it will be disaster.
Who will suffer ? It is obvious.

If Corbyn wins do you envisage the PLP getting behind him and helping push his policies through?
We are in this terrible state because the media,the PLP,even some of the military do not want Corbyn getting to Downing Street.
Or are we just going to unite for Smith?

frightful_oik · Post by **frightful_oik** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 5:30 pm

'Members of Corbyn's team undermining Remain campaign'
Like Gisela Stuart and John Mann? Frank Field and Kate Hoey?

Lost Soul · Post by **Lost Soul** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 5:34 pm

frog222 wrote:Morning all
Hindle's link from

If Lost Soul is around, my recipe for avoiding political indigestion and clear the mind, is to time-travel by reading a historical novel or other history, and also get outside, if not housebound!

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1244 ... ast_Mughal" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Last Mughal is a mighty read, brilliant research . I don't think I would have bought it new, but just came across it second-hand, for €1.

PS currently enjoying the first few pages of Joseph Banks by Patrick O'Brien .

More time-travelling ...

Well thank you...
I've actually just got back after a couple of days in the hills of Cumbria.
It works !
Also reading Andy Cave - Learning to breathe. His journey from a mining apprenticeship in South Yorkshire to climbing in Nepal. He started climbing around Sheffield during the strike. Highly recommended.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 5:38 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
yahyah wrote:Didn't Ed have a policy that workers would only be allowed to be on zero hours contracts for an initial three months, then would have to be shifted onto regular contracts ?

Ed certainly said he'd abolish the Bedroom Tax if Labour won...a point there that Labour does need to win elections.

Surely if they are policies are to be supported if they are fought for by a Labour leader, even if that leader isn't Corbyn if the membership vote for Smith ?

Jonny thinks the PLP will stand in Smith's way if he gets elected, try and block those policies.
If Smith wins, wouldn't it be sensible, as Sanders has done in the US, to get behind him and help push those things through. If factions unite, they will be stronger.

People are going to have shift their positions. Or it will be disaster.

Who will suffer ?
[My bold] But therein lies the rub. Who is refusing to co-operate? Who do you think will dig their heels in and refuse?

Let's be honest. With all the virulence of feeling, will Smith get an easy ride ? Any more than Corbyn has ? Not just flack from the PLP if he does stick to his agenda, but from Corbyn's people ?

Whoever wins...whoever... those who support the policies that Ed started, or Corbyn has put forward, and Smith 'copied', should unite. Together they can take on the hard core in the PLP.

That's why I wrote my resignation letter.
I think a lot of Corbyn supporters, in the House and out, will make life difficult for Smith if he wins.
I didn't like that with what's been done to Corbyn, didn't like it done to Ed, and won't like it done to Smith. Why would the essential tension at the heart of the Labour party magically resolve unless people shift their rigid positions ?

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 5:42 pm

yahyah wrote:
Rebecca wrote:
yahyah wrote:I wish people would be less critical/not spin untruths about Smith, it is almost making me support him as I feel forced to defend him from what isn't true.
Are we not to criticise Smith then?
I said I don't trust him.I don't,sorry.
He is a pr man,and you do not get to be a top level corporate lobbyist for pharma without being as slick as shit.
Anyway,it's probably just as well you left Labour.
What with having to support Corbyn because he is criticised and lied about,then doing the same for Smith,your head would be spinning like that scary girl in the movie!
As my mum used to say,it will all come out in the wash.We will see what happens in September.
And if the Labour MPs rally round,do their bloody job,support the leader and fight the tories.

Criticise where it is deserved.

But posting that he doesn't seem to have cared about worker rights, something patently inaccurate, is not acceptable surely.

Maybe it is because of the parochial nature of politics, and an over reliance on Twitter and social media. He had a lot more coverage in the Welsh press earlier in the day, so people know that he has been vocal on employment rights, pensions, steel jobs, etc.

Stick to the facts Man, as the old comedy sketch said. Corbyn wouldn't want disinformation posted, and we all feel aggrieved when he gets maligned.

I said. I'd not seen any positive Tweets from Smith about that or any other important matter. But suddenly he's posting about them?

I stand by it.
Plenty of MPs keep their Twitter followers and by definition Labour voters, up to date on what they've been doing or saying in Westminster. He hasn't appeared to be one of them.He might well be featured more in the Welsh press but we can't be blamed for that.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 5:43 pm

yahyah wrote:Surely they are policies to be supported if they are fought for by a Labour leader, even if that leader isn't Corbyn if the membership vote for Smith ?

Jonny thinks the PLP will stand in Smith's way if he gets elected, try and block those policies.
Sadly, very likely. Leopards don't change their spots.

People are going to have shift their positions. Or it will be disaster.

To answer your first question, yes. But see further below.

Your 2nd para above. God, I'm such a cynical pessimist aren't I.

Your 3rd. Yes. Some/many people will have to compromise and swallow their pride. Etc. And they will because most people are practical when it comes to it. Not me though, obstinate dick that I am.

The problem though: the PLP have essentially betrayed the membership - at least that's what it feels and very much looks like. Smith is the 'establishment' candidate in this competition and I'm afraid the establishment just aren't trusted to keep their word on anything at the moment. So all the sweet left wing words in the world that Smith says just can't be trusted by a significant chunk of the electorate he's saying them to. He may well believe them. He may not. Either way, the majority of the PLP has not demonstrated once in the past 19 years that it is willing to move to the left rather than further right. It's so very, very difficult to believe that this has now changed when there's been no significant alteration in personnel since 2010. People aren't just voting for or against Corbyn in this election. They're voting for or against the PLP.

Finally, chances of everyone within the PLP swallowing their pride and compromising should Corbyn win? I'm not very hopeful on that.

Rebecca · Post by **Rebecca** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 5:44 pm

yahyah wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:
yahyah wrote:Didn't Ed have a policy that workers would only be allowed to be on zero hours contracts for an initial three months, then would have to be shifted onto regular contracts ?

Ed certainly said he'd abolish the Bedroom Tax if Labour won...a point there that Labour does need to win elections.

Surely if they are policies are to be supported if they are fought for by a Labour leader, even if that leader isn't Corbyn if the membership vote for Smith ?

Jonny thinks the PLP will stand in Smith's way if he gets elected, try and block those policies.
If Smith wins, wouldn't it be sensible, as Sanders has done in the US, to get behind him and help push those things through. If factions unite, they will be stronger.

People are going to have shift their positions. Or it will be disaster.

Who will suffer ?
[My bold] But therein lies the rub. Who is refusing to co-operate? Who do you think will dig their heels in and refuse?

Let's be honest. With all the virulence of feeling, will Smith get an easy ride ? Any more than Corbyn has ? Not just flack from the PLP if he does stick to his agenda, but from Corbyn's people ?

Whoever wins...whoever... those who support the policies that Ed started, or Corbyn has put forward, and Smith 'copied' should unite. Together they can take on the hard core in the PLP.

That's why I wrote my resignation letter.
I think a lot of Corbyn supporters, in the House and out, will make life difficult for Smith if he wins.
I didn't like that with what's been done to Corbyn, didn't like it done to Ed, and won't like ti done to Smith. Why would the essential tension at the heart of the Labour party magically resolve unless people shift their rigid positions ?

Thousands of Corbyn supporters voted for Corbyn as party leader last September.
Thousands of them still want him to be party leader,and have been very unhappy with the disgusting behaviour of the PLP.The coup,the bitching,the leaking.
Owen Smith is not going to get a free ride if he beats Jeremy,because he is part of the coup.
The PLP have treated their members like shit over this.
So what,they get rid of Jeremy,put Smith in his place and THEN they suddenly realise that the party needs unity?
Good luck with that.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 5:45 pm

I'm off to cook.

I can see that trying explain why posting things that are demonstrably untrue about a candidate, as I've detailed above, is not helpful.

I didn't like it done to Ed, or Corbyn. Or Brown.
I don't want another potential leader shredded and made look bad in front of voters by his own party...yet again. If that doesn't stop, Labour are finished.
Corbyn would not want misinformation spread about his rival, that's one of the reasons I voted for him last year.

Call me simple.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 5:46 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
RobertSnozers wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
A sudden, violent, and illegal seizure of power from a government is my definition.

So use of the word 'coup' is inapposite in almost every way. This isn't against a government. It isn't violent (save for the odd brick through a window) and it isn't illegal (it is a challenge under the rules).
Mass resignations timed for media effect and repeated demands without any backing in law or process for the elected leader to resign along with a spurious and unconstitutional no-confidence vote do not constitute a challenge under the rules.

I am not sure why you think asking a leader to resign is a coup, is unlawful, or lacks process.

I hereby ask Theresa May to resign.

And the fact that the no confidence vote doesn't have any constitutional effect doesn't mean it was wrongful. Mps can express a collective view through a vote on anything they like (as can we).

And now, he is being challenged under the rules. Just not a coup. Coups don't usually involve counting lots of votes.

It would have been a coup if they'd managed to bully him into resigning. But as he dug his heels in and they're forced to hold a leadership election, it's now legal and democratic.

Is that better?

MsChin · Post by **MsChin** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 5:49 pm

ephemerid wrote:Here are a few policies - some look familiar....

Make companies publish equal pay audits; ban zero-hour contracts; abolish employment tribunal fees; unfair dismissal rights from day one.
Work towards free childcare for all; introduce a full living wage (£10/hour at current rates).
Abolish the bedroom tax; scrap the benefits cap; give councils power to cap private rents.
Build 100,000 COUNCIL houses a year (this is specific - not just X number of "new homes").
Renationalise the NHS; renationalise rail; renationalise the Post Office.
Introduce a fund to help train working-class people to become MPs.
10-point environment manifesto including community-owned energy.

There are lots more.

They are Corbyn's.

Just for clarity, the publication of gender pay gap information is in S78 of the Equality Act 2010, which was taken through Parliament by Harriet Harman. This wasn't enacted by the Coalition govt. Public sector bodies already have to publish that information under S149 of the Act, as well as wider pay & grading data on disability, ethnicity etc on their workforce.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 5:51 pm

yahyah wrote:Call me simple.

OK, Shirley*.

* couldn't resist. Police Squad/Airplane just in case not obvious.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 5:52 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
It would have been a coup if they'd managed to bully him into resigning. But as he dug his heels in and they're forced to hold a leadership election, it's now legal and democratic.

Is that better?

No, not really. When IDS resigned because he had lost the confidence of the Tory party nin Parliament that wasn't a coup either. When your colleagues say "you're crap please go" that isn't a coup. It is being asked to go.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 5:52 pm

Rebecca wrote:
yahyah wrote:
ohsocynical wrote: [My bold] But therein lies the rub. Who is refusing to co-operate? Who do you think will dig their heels in and refuse?

Let's be honest. With all the virulence of feeling, will Smith get an easy ride ? Any more than Corbyn has ? Not just flack from the PLP if he does stick to his agenda, but from Corbyn's people ?

Whoever wins...whoever... those who support the policies that Ed started, or Corbyn has put forward, and Smith 'copied' should unite. Together they can take on the hard core in the PLP.

That's why I wrote my resignation letter.
I think a lot of Corbyn supporters, in the House and out, will make life difficult for Smith if he wins.
I didn't like that with what's been done to Corbyn, didn't like it done to Ed, and won't like ti done to Smith. Why would the essential tension at the heart of the Labour party magically resolve unless people shift their rigid positions ?
Thousands of Corbyn supporters voted for Corbyn as party leader last September.
Thousands of them still want him to be party leader,and have been very unhappy with the disgusting behaviour of the PLP.The coup,the bitching,the leaking.
Owen Smith is not going to get a free ride if he beats Jeremy,because he is part of the coup.
The PLP have treated their members like shit over this.
So what,they get rid of Jeremy,put Smith in his place and THEN they suddenly realise that the party needs unity?
Good luck with that.

That isn't what I said.

It isn't just two factions. It isn't just black and white. There are grey areas, as Jonny mentioned earlier. People who aren't 100% pro Corbyn, or 100% Smith. Or even 10% for either of them.

It isn't just pro and anti Corbyn. There are people, just like voters in a general election who aren't fixed in their views.

All I am saying is, if we really want more policies for the left, then If...a big if...Smith wins then people who support the policies he has copied from Corbyn [a small amount via Ed too] should unite.

Is that clearer ? I'm sorry I'm incapable of explaining it better.

Also, you like me, liked Ed. Have you not noticed that a lot of the people who are attacking Smith are the same people who undermined Ed too. No, not the Blairites, but those who said Ed was Tory lite etc. That should ring alarm bells.

You'll all be relieved to know I am really going now.

Rebecca · Post by **Rebecca** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 5:55 pm

yahyah wrote:
Rebecca wrote:
yahyah wrote:
Let's be honest. With all the virulence of feeling, will Smith get an easy ride ? Any more than Corbyn has ? Not just flack from the PLP if he does stick to his agenda, but from Corbyn's people ?

Whoever wins...whoever... those who support the policies that Ed started, or Corbyn has put forward, and Smith 'copied' should unite. Together they can take on the hard core in the PLP.

That's why I wrote my resignation letter.
I think a lot of Corbyn supporters, in the House and out, will make life difficult for Smith if he wins.
I didn't like that with what's been done to Corbyn, didn't like it done to Ed, and won't like ti done to Smith. Why would the essential tension at the heart of the Labour party magically resolve unless people shift their rigid positions ?
Thousands of Corbyn supporters voted for Corbyn as party leader last September.
Thousands of them still want him to be party leader,and have been very unhappy with the disgusting behaviour of the PLP.The coup,the bitching,the leaking.
Owen Smith is not going to get a free ride if he beats Jeremy,because he is part of the coup.
The PLP have treated their members like shit over this.
So what,they get rid of Jeremy,put Smith in his place and THEN they suddenly realise that the party needs unity?
Good luck with that.
That isn't what I said.

It isn't just two factions. It isn't just black and white. There are grey areas, as Jonny mentioned earlier. People who aren't 100% pro Corbyn, or 100% Smith. Or even 10% for either of them.

It isn't just pro and anti Corbyn. There are people, just like voters in a general election who aren't fixed in their views.

All I am saying is, if we really want more policies for the left, then If...a big if...Smith wins then people who support the policies he has copied from Corbyn [a small amount via Ed too] should unite.

Is that clearer ? I'm sorry I'm incapable of explaining it better.

Also, you like me, liked Ed. Have you not noticed that a lot of the people who are attacking Smith are the same people who undermined Ed too. No, not the Blairites, but those who said Ed was Tory lite etc. That should ring alarm bells.

You'll all be relieved to know I am really going now.

We will simply have to agree to disagree on this one.
Smith did not have to challenge Corbyns' leadership.
I cannot condone it.I cannot support it.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 5:55 pm

No, I lied. I'm not going because this is just plain silly.

OhSo. It isn't all about Twitter. Look at the, sorry to be so darned old fashioned, but the news media links. The newspapers. He is clearly talking about workers rights some years ago.

But hey, what would I know ? Maybe the Welsh papers just made it up, and have post dated the articles as an anti-Corbyn conspiracy [that's a joke by the way].

''It isn't on Twitter'' that'll be on Labour's headstone.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 6:05 pm

Very interesting on inequality

https://flipchartfairytales.wordpress.c ... for-a-day/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 6:07 pm

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 6:17 pm

"To say... that parties are natural is not to say that they are perfect. They distort the issues that they create. They produce divisions
in the electorate which very superficially represent the way in which opinion is in fact distributed... They falsify the perspective of
the issues they create... They build about persons allegiance which should go to ideas... Yet when the last criticisms of party have
been made the services they render to a democratic state are inestimable.'

- H J Laski
Grammar of Politics

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 6:18 pm

Wallasey Labour Party suspended over bullying threats vows: 'We will reveal truth'

The Wallasey MP had welcomed the suspension of her local party, pending an investigation, but has since cancelled walk-in advice surgeries on police advice .

Now a leaflet has started being distributed for a “Public meeting for Wallasey Labour Party Members, Supporters, Trades Unionists and Community”.

The meeting is being organised through Wirral TUC and the leaflet advertising it says both Angela Eagle or a “nominated representative” and North West Labour Party have been invited to take part.

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liv ... r-11669458" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post by **refitman** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 6:23 pm

ephemerid wrote:Here are a few policies - some look familiar....

Make companies publish equal pay audits; ban zero-hour contracts; abolish employment tribunal fees; unfair dismissal rights from day one.
Work towards free childcare for all; introduce a full living wage (£10/hour at current rates).
Abolish the bedroom tax; scrap the benefits cap; give councils power to cap private rents.
Build 100,000 COUNCIL houses a year (this is specific - not just X number of "new homes").
Renationalise the NHS; renationalise rail; renationalise the Post Office.
Introduce a fund to help train working-class people to become MPs.
10-point environment manifesto including community-owned energy.

There are lots more.

They are Corbyn's.

Communist! Trotskyite! Stalinist!

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 6:30 pm

Officials in Croydon North Constituency Labour Party have been forced to make a humiliating climbdown over their attempts to stage a leadership nomination meeting which sought to exclude the vast majority of the area’s members.

https://insidecroydon.com/2016/07/27/mp ... n-meeting/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 6:45 pm

yahyah wrote:No, I lied. I'm not going because this is just plain silly.

OhSo. It isn't all about Twitter. Look at the, sorry to be so darned old fashioned, but the news media links. The newspapers. He is clearly talking about workers rights some years ago.

But hey, what would I know ? Maybe the Welsh papers just made it up, and have post dated the articles as an anti-Corbyn conspiracy [that's a joke by the way].

''It isn't on Twitter'' that'll be on Labour's headstone.

I appreciate what you're saying. But if not Twitter where? The Press? The Media?

On Twitter you get well known and not so well known links so you can read for yourself. And there are plenty of Labour MPs that do use it sensibly to let people know what they're doing in the HofC. Some MPs use it to link to speeches they've given or appearances they're making and have made or for causes they're interested in, although unfortunately some like Dugher use it to be insulting. Even so, it's good we see what they're thinking.

If it wasn't for Twitter and Facebook, much of what's been happening would go unreported. You could sit at a computer 24 hours a day and never find as much for yourself.

The photographs of the huge gathering for one of Corbyn's appearances last week are a prime example. The BBC showed a small section of the audience when in fact it was in a theatre and had a crowd of 1700 people.

55DegreesNorth · Post by **55DegreesNorth** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 6:46 pm

Dear Member,

I continue to receive a large number of letters about current events in our Party. I have tried to make my own views clear in previous emails, but I accept that events have now moved on since I last wrote. I apologise for the standard nature of this reply and please feel free to get back to me if there is some point you think I haven't covered.

I want to extend a warm welcome to the Labour Party to those of you who have recently joined. I attach copies of my previous responses which I sent out as events unfurled, which I hope may be of interest. My position in summary is that I supported Yvette Cooper for leader and Angela Eagle for deputy leader last year. I accept the results of the leadership election and have tried to work constructively with the Parliamentary leadership as a backbench Labour MP. I do hold office on House of Commons Committees, representing the Labour Party. I have not resigned from any of these posts and get on with doing the job that I have been asked to do. I did not support the PLP no confidence motion at the PLP meeting on the Monday it was discussed. I do not believe we should be having this leadership contest, however this is very much a minority point of view amongst MPs.

Dissatisfaction with Jeremy Corbyn’s leadership is widespread and deeply felt. There are people who never gave him a chance when he was elected leader and opposed him from day one. The present row and disappointments spread well beyond this however.

My fear is that the present leadership contest will not resolve the issue regardless of the outcome. My objective is to hold the Labour Party together at Constituency level.

I have argued in favour of Jeremy’s right to be on the ballot paper in the leadership contest as a matter of right, because he is the incumbent. Some members have written to me saying that they joined too late to take part in the ballot. This is a National Executive Committee decision. Although I accept that all deadlines are somewhat arbitrary, I hope this won't put new members off enthusiastically participating in our party.

I haven't nominated, or declared support for either of the candidates in the leadership contest, partly because I don't believe we should be having the contest, and should have found another way through, but also because I don't want to be a partisan supporter of one side or another when the key task is to unify the party, rather than exacerbate its divisions. I do have very strong views as to how we could constructively move forward and I am happy to discuss these with members who are interested in these issues about party structures.

I was first elected to Parliament in 1983. Roy Jenkins, David Owen and others had broken away from the Labour Party and set up the SDP. Indeed, I defeated their candidate, Mike Thomas, who was the previous Labour MP for East Newcastle before he defected. As a relatively young man I saw at first hand the miseries that this put the Labour Party through, exacerbated by Trotskyite entryism. There must be a better way forward than going back to where we were 35 years ago.

With very best wishes,

Nick

Rt Hon Nick Brown MP
Member of Parliament for Newcastle upon Tyne East

1 Mosley Street | Newcastle upon Tyne| NE1 1YE
Tel: 0191 261 1408 (Newcastle) | 020 7219 6814 (Westminster)
Email: nickbrownmp@parliament.uk
Website: http://www.nickbrownmp.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 6:48 pm

Hypothetical question:

If the Labour Party were to lose the likes of Mann, Woodcock, Reed, etc plus Abbott, Corbyn, McDonnell etc, from the two extremities would it be better off or worse off? Is what's left behind in any shape to contest anything.

There's one rule in this hypothetical - both sides have to go, not one or t'other.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 6:49 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:
It would have been a coup if they'd managed to bully him into resigning. But as he dug his heels in and they're forced to hold a leadership election, it's now legal and democratic.

Is that better?
No, not really. When IDS resigned because he had lost the confidence of the Tory party nin Parliament that wasn't a coup either. When your colleagues say "you're crap please go" that isn't a coup. It is being asked to go.

Ah. I get it. It's the 'bullying' part you can't admit to.
Fair enough

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 6:55 pm

JonnyT1234 wrote:Hypothetical question:

If the Labour Party were to lose the likes of Mann, Woodcock, Reed, etc plus Abbott, Corbyn, McDonnell etc, from the two extremities would it be better off or worse off? Is what's left behind in any shape to contest anything.

There's one rule in this hypothetical - both sides have to go, not one or t'other.

I'd add a lot more names to the list for the right but if you tried to even it up, there'd be very few left.