Wednesday 27th July 2016

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 6:59 pm

55DegreesNorth wrote:Dear Member,

I continue to receive a large number of letters about current events in our Party. I have tried to make my own views clear in previous emails, but I accept that events have now moved on since I last wrote. I apologise for the standard nature of this reply and please feel free to get back to me if there is some point you think I haven't covered.

I want to extend a warm welcome to the Labour Party to those of you who have recently joined. I attach copies of my previous responses which I sent out as events unfurled, which I hope may be of interest. My position in summary is that I supported Yvette Cooper for leader and Angela Eagle for deputy leader last year. I accept the results of the leadership election and have tried to work constructively with the Parliamentary leadership as a backbench Labour MP. I do hold office on House of Commons Committees, representing the Labour Party. I have not resigned from any of these posts and get on with doing the job that I have been asked to do. I did not support the PLP no confidence motion at the PLP meeting on the Monday it was discussed. I do not believe we should be having this leadership contest, however this is very much a minority point of view amongst MPs.

Dissatisfaction with Jeremy Corbyn’s leadership is widespread and deeply felt. There are people who never gave him a chance when he was elected leader and opposed him from day one. The present row and disappointments spread well beyond this however.

My fear is that the present leadership contest will not resolve the issue regardless of the outcome. My objective is to hold the Labour Party together at Constituency level.

I have argued in favour of Jeremy’s right to be on the ballot paper in the leadership contest as a matter of right, because he is the incumbent. Some members have written to me saying that they joined too late to take part in the ballot. This is a National Executive Committee decision. Although I accept that all deadlines are somewhat arbitrary, I hope this won't put new members off enthusiastically participating in our party.

I haven't nominated, or declared support for either of the candidates in the leadership contest, partly because I don't believe we should be having the contest, and should have found another way through, but also because I don't want to be a partisan supporter of one side or another when the key task is to unify the party, rather than exacerbate its divisions. I do have very strong views as to how we could constructively move forward and I am happy to discuss these with members who are interested in these issues about party structures.

I was first elected to Parliament in 1983. Roy Jenkins, David Owen and others had broken away from the Labour Party and set up the SDP. Indeed, I defeated their candidate, Mike Thomas, who was the previous Labour MP for East Newcastle before he defected. As a relatively young man I saw at first hand the miseries that this put the Labour Party through, exacerbated by Trotskyite entryism. There must be a better way forward than going back to where we were 35 years ago.

With very best wishes,

Nick

Rt Hon Nick Brown MP
Member of Parliament for Newcastle upon Tyne East

1 Mosley Street | Newcastle upon Tyne| NE1 1YE
Tel: 0191 261 1408 (Newcastle) | 020 7219 6814 (Westminster)
Email: nickbrownmp@parliament.uk
Website: http://www.nickbrownmp.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What a brilliant letter. Clever too, but I think that's good. What a shame more MPs haven't taken this path.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 7:30 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
JonnyT1234 wrote:Hypothetical question:

If the Labour Party were to lose the likes of Mann, Woodcock, Reed, etc plus Abbott, Corbyn, McDonnell etc, from the two extremities would it be better off or worse off? Is what's left behind in any shape to contest anything.

There's one rule in this hypothetical - both sides have to go, not one or t'other.
I'd add a lot more names to the list for the right but if you tried to even it up, there'd be very few left.

I believe you've answered my question fairly. And we end up with a big problem for Labour. If the consequences for everyone else weren't so dire, perhaps being decimated at an election would be no bad thing for them after all?

pala · Post by **pala** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 7:37 pm

Since OS is now a radical, a bit of radicalism for you:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qvm6LgRroQ

Post by **refitman** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 7:44 pm

Would that our media would do something like this:
french-media-to-stop-publishing-photos-and-names-of-terrorists
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2016/ ... terrorists" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 7:48 pm

The disgraced International Secretary Liam Fox has not had a good start to his new career after being slapped down and forced to confront the reality of Brexit.
Fox was optimistic before he went to the U.S. today, telling reporters that his three new offices in different U.S. states would “offer exciting opportunities to boost trade and investment”.
He also said the UK would likely want free-trade agreement with the EU rather than be part of the Single Market and went off to try and strike deals.

And that’s when it all fell apart.

https://politicalscrapbook.net/2016/07/ ... and-burns/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 7:54 pm

ohsocynical wrote:The disgraced International Secretary Liam Fox has not had a good start to his new career after being slapped down and forced to confront the reality of Brexit.
Fox was optimistic before he went to the U.S. today, telling reporters that his three new offices in different U.S. states would “offer exciting opportunities to boost trade and investment”.
He also said the UK would likely want free-trade agreement with the EU rather than be part of the Single Market and went off to try and strike deals.

And that’s when it all fell apart.

https://politicalscrapbook.net/2016/07/ ... and-burns/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Still, I'm glad to see that he's still got a friend to talk things over with - tax-payer funded, probably. (I assume the photo' is a current one? I don't recognise the others in the picture, so I'm not sure.)

Edited to add a '

mbc1955 · Post by **mbc1955** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 7:58 pm

Here's my position: I have been following the debate all day during a particularly lousy day at work and I cannot say which is the more depressing, the atmosphere in which I find myself working, or the atmosphere of divisiveness I'm encountering every time I look at the next few posts.

I have already said that the differences in the Labour Party are, despite Nick Brown's utterly reasonable, utterly decent message, too deep and too raw for there to be any realistic hope of reconciliation. If the party consisted of Nick Brown's, then reconciliation would be an entirely probable outcome. But it's not. I'm not taking sides or apportioning blame: there isn't a future I can see.

But instead of doing the sensible thing and realigning to put a shape onto this utter chaos, we're going to stick our heads in the sand and whistle blithely that we'll get through this. No, we won't.

I don't like seeing FTN going down the same route. We've scraped along through our differences throughout the two years or so I've been here, and obviously the place lasted admirably before me, but I'm seeing things through a glass darkly after today, and I can see the general concord that cradles us together as Nick Browns starting to shatter, and I don't like it.

I don't have anything to say that isn't already being said, denied, shouted, rubbished, supported and, in the case of ORT, being denied as even existing. I'm keeping my head down, my mouth shut and my options open. Try not to wreck the place, will you, I'd like to think I can call back in at some point.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 7:59 pm

MsChin wrote:
ephemerid wrote:Here are a few policies - some look familiar....

Make companies publish equal pay audits; ban zero-hour contracts; abolish employment tribunal fees; unfair dismissal rights from day one.
Work towards free childcare for all; introduce a full living wage (£10/hour at current rates).
Abolish the bedroom tax; scrap the benefits cap; give councils power to cap private rents.
Build 100,000 COUNCIL houses a year (this is specific - not just X number of "new homes").
Renationalise the NHS; renationalise rail; renationalise the Post Office.
Introduce a fund to help train working-class people to become MPs.
10-point environment manifesto including community-owned energy.

There are lots more.

They are Corbyn's.
Just for clarity, the publication of gender pay gap information is in S78 of the Equality Act 2010, which was taken through Parliament by Harriet Harman. This wasn't enacted by the Coalition govt. Public sector bodies already have to publish that information under S149 of the Act, as well as wider pay & grading data on disability, ethnicity etc on their workforce.

Thanks, Chinny.
For further clarity - the Corbyn policy is for all pay gap information for all employers of a certain size in all sectors.
It applies to all employees, from the top down, and will include gender, age, disability, etc.
Good though the Equality Act is (in parts) it doesn't go far enough and excludes the private sector.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 8:04 pm

mbc1955 - this.

Have a hug.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 8:04 pm

@Hephaestus7
Samuel Miller
I've had correspondence with Owen Smith and I will not support the Labour party unless it commits to reversing the ESA (WRAG) cuts.

Although Labour is taking advice from lawyers on whether benefit cuts under Universal Credit are illegal, Owen Smith has refused to say whether Labour will also consider taking legal action to block the life-threatening ESA (WRAG) cuts, scheduled to come into effect April 2017.

MsChin · Post by **MsChin** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 8:14 pm

ephemerid wrote:
MsChin wrote:
ephemerid wrote:Here are a few policies - some look familiar....

Make companies publish equal pay audits; ban zero-hour contracts; abolish employment tribunal fees; unfair dismissal rights from day one.
Work towards free childcare for all; introduce a full living wage (£10/hour at current rates).
Abolish the bedroom tax; scrap the benefits cap; give councils power to cap private rents.
Build 100,000 COUNCIL houses a year (this is specific - not just X number of "new homes").
Renationalise the NHS; renationalise rail; renationalise the Post Office.
Introduce a fund to help train working-class people to become MPs.
10-point environment manifesto including community-owned energy.

There are lots more.

They are Corbyn's.
Just for clarity, the publication of gender pay gap information is in S78 of the Equality Act 2010, which was taken through Parliament by Harriet Harman. This wasn't enacted by the Coalition govt. Public sector bodies already have to publish that information under S149 of the Act, as well as wider pay & grading data on disability, ethnicity etc on their workforce.

Thanks, Chinny.
For further clarity - the Corbyn policy is for all pay gap information for all employers of a certain size in all sectors.
It applies to all employees, from the top down, and will include gender, age, disability, etc.
Good though the Equality Act is (in parts) it doesn't go far enough and excludes the private sector.

No, ephe, S78 was for the private sector. Corbyn has added the vol sector. There never has been any sectoral exemption from the equal pay legislation anyway, it's only through case law esp at the EU level that we've seen which sectors aren't complying.
Agree the Eq Act doesn't go far enough but it was much better than previous legislation for most. Disability, not so much. But parts of the Act were not implemented, eg: the socio-economic duty and the watchdog, the EHRC, had it's teeth removed by the Coalition.

frightful_oik · Post by **frightful_oik** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 8:18 pm

@mbc
Although it's fairly clear where I stand in this debate, I hope I haven't either fallen out with anybody or upset anyone. Not my intention at all. This place has had passionate debates before: politics should be passionate. I'm sure we'll all be here when the dust settles.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 8:20 pm

UK real wages plummet by more than 10% in just eight years

http://www.welfareweekly.com/uk-real-wa ... +Weekly%29" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

mbc1955 · Post by **mbc1955** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 8:24 pm

ephemerid wrote:mbc1955 - this.

Have a hug.

Much appreciated. I would like to send a person I work with a hug - from a python.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 8:25 pm

mbc1955 wrote:Here's my position: I have been following the debate all day during a particularly lousy day at work and I cannot say which is the more depressing, the atmosphere in which I find myself working, or the atmosphere of divisiveness I'm encountering every time I look at the next few posts.

I have already said that the differences in the Labour Party are, despite Nick Brown's utterly reasonable, utterly decent message, too deep and too raw for there to be any realistic hope of reconciliation. If the party consisted of Nick Brown's, then reconciliation would be an entirely probable outcome. But it's not. I'm not taking sides or apportioning blame: there isn't a future I can see.

But instead of doing the sensible thing and realigning to put a shape onto this utter chaos, we're going to stick our heads in the sand and whistle blithely that we'll get through this. No, we won't.

I don't like seeing FTN going down the same route. We've scraped along through our differences throughout the two years or so I've been here, and obviously the place lasted admirably before me, but I'm seeing things through a glass darkly after today, and I can see the general concord that cradles us together as Nick Browns starting to shatter, and I don't like it.

I don't have anything to say that isn't already being said, denied, shouted, rubbished, supported and, in the case of ORT, being denied as even existing. I'm keeping my head down, my mouth shut and my options open. Try not to wreck the place, will you, I'd like to think I can call back in at some point.

I'm a bit slow today - ORT? (Mind you, FTN gave me pause.) But please translate ORT. Thanks.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 8:37 pm

"The British government could only ensure the protection of European citizens living in the UK if British citizens were afforded the same
rights in other EU states, Theresa May has said in the presence of the Italian prime minister [Matteo Renzi].

Asked by a journalist whether the rights of Italians living in the UK could be protected, May said: “I want to be able to guarantee their
rights in the UK. I expect to be able to do that and I intend to be able to do that, to guarantee their rights. The only circumstances in
which that would not be possible would be if the rights of British citizens living in other EU member states were not guaranteed.”

It was not clear whether the issue was discussed in depth between the two leaders, or whether May’s remarks represented a concern
for British citizens abroad, or a veiled threat to counterparts like Renzi who want to see ensure their citizens are not adversely affected."

- Theresa May: EU citizens' rights depend on fate of Britons abroad

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... ons-abroad" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 8:43 pm

ORT - anyone?

mbc1955 · Post by **mbc1955** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 8:46 pm

Our Resident Troll.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 8:47 pm

mbc1955 wrote:Our Resident Troll.

Thank you!

pk1 · Post by **pk1** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 9:01 pm

Somebody wanted Ed Miliband to speak up for Owen Smith.

Well, he has

Ed Miliband ‏@Ed_Miliband 33m33 minutes ago
This is a clear, strong speech by @OwenSmith_MP with a proper argument backed up by policy. Please read.

http://labourlist.org/2016/07/the-kind- ... -industry/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

@yahyah, I sense your distress at the events unfolding & the reaction of others to what you've posted so I hope you're ok x

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 9:04 pm

Tuesday 11 August 2015

Jeremy Corbyn says he'll set up a Ministry of Labour to fight on the side of workers

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 50236.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

@HindleA.

So Corbyn had already promised this. Smith has said he'll do similar. Be interesting to see if it happens via one or the other or if I'm right about empty promises.

mbc1955 · Post by **mbc1955** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 9:22 pm

Freedomofthepress wrote:
mbc1955 wrote:Our Resident Troll.
Can you please elaborate for those of us who haven't got a clue what the hell ORT is supposed to be about?

Hugo

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 9:23 pm

Freedomofthepress wrote:
mbc1955 wrote:Our Resident Troll.
Can you please elaborate for those of us who haven't got a clue what the hell ORT is supposed to be about?

He means me.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 9:26 pm

pk1 wrote:Somebody wanted Ed Miliband to speak up for Owen Smith.

Well, he has

Ed Miliband ‏@Ed_Miliband 33m33 minutes ago
This is a clear, strong speech by @OwenSmith_MP with a proper argument backed up by policy. Please read.

http://labourlist.org/2016/07/the-kind- ... -industry/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Interesting to reflect how quickly the power of influence wanes. Last summer, if Miliband had intervened strongly it might have changed the course of the election. Now, just as I agree with him, his power of influence has largely gone I expect.

mbc1955 · Post by **mbc1955** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 9:38 pm

And I don't believe in leopards changing their shorts.

So I'm switching off now. Good night.

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 10:21 pm

mbc1955 wrote:
Freedomofthepress wrote:
mbc1955 wrote:Our Resident Troll.
Can you please elaborate for those of us who haven't got a clue what the hell ORT is supposed to be about?
Hugo

I thought that was Rusty not Hugo. I honestly don't consider H a troll - misguided and an unashamed blairite, of course, but not a troll.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 10:33 pm

Just what is it with these people?
Internet troll facing prison for sending anti-semitic threats to Labour MP Luciana Berger
John Nimmo told Ms Berger she would ‘get it like Jo Cox’

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/peopl ... 58551.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 10:40 pm

HindleA wrote:D is for donkey,duck,daisy and Dot according to Lucie Attwell.

am not an "expert" in english, but am pretty sure there are more than four words beginning with d.

Including defo (recently introduced by OED) and dirge.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 10:48 pm

Donald Trump to Russia: hack and publish Hillary Clinton's 'missing' emails

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... s-dnc-hack" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Gawd. And we think it's bad over here.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 10:48 pm

RobertSnozers wrote:
Freedomofthepress wrote:
RobertSnozers wrote:Maybe I'm reading this wrong. I can see people are upset, but these are upsetting times. There's a leadership election and lots of questions won't be resolved until the results of that are known. I've seen people setting out their position, sometimes passionately - and what's wrong with that? - and being challenged by others equally passionate about their beliefs. I haven't seen any vitriol today or even much anger. This forum is much, much more respectful and sensitive than 99.9% of the internet. When we're all merrily agreeing with each other some folk feel uncomfortable and think we might be becoming an echo chamber. When there's disagreement, some people get upset. But this is important stuff we're working through. We're allowed to feel strongly about it.
Here, here.

These are important and historical times we are living through and so if I go back to my first post of the morning, that was my point, I felt that the debate was being suppressed when that we should be able to discuss, debate and explore (without encouraging libel).
Yes. I feel I'm being completely inarticulate, and I'm not trying to say anyone's feelings aren't valid - they are, and if people are getting upset by the tone, I'm upset too as this is a fantastic place and I'd be lost without it. But I think there's a breakdown in communication happening somewhere. I don't think it's possible to debate everything that's going on without getting exercised about it, and people have strong feelings that are not shared by everyone. Surely we can find a way to maintain that without people feeling attacked just for holding different viewpoints?

I've hardly posted today because I know, from past experience, that my words would be misunderstood because I'm not articulate enough to make clear points. I've sat back and watched the same happen to yahyah and done nothing to offer her support.
I'm ashamed of that.
All she was saying is please don't make assumptions out of whispered rumours based on nothing but speculation.
Lets discuss, but let our discussion be based on fact, not fiction or unsupported accusation (sorry to our authors of fiction, no offence meant !)
*edit to make a point clearer

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 10:49 pm

https://www.unison.org.uk/news/article/ ... sultation/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Labour leadership – consultation
We are canvassing views from all UNISON members opted into the UNISON Affiliated Political Fund (APF)

http://research.unison.org.uk/s3/2016-0 ... ship-Email" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 10:51 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:
HindleA wrote:D is for donkey,duck,daisy and Dot according to Lucie Attwell.
am not an "expert" in english, but am pretty sure there are more than four words beginning with d.

Including defo (recently introduced by OED) and dirge.

But are they words that make you feel all warm and cuddly?

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 10:52 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote:
HindleA wrote:D is for donkey,duck,daisy and Dot according to Lucie Attwell.
am not an "expert" in english, but am pretty sure there are more than four words beginning with d.

Including defo (recently introduced by OED) and dirge.
But are they words that make you feel all warm and cuddly?

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=mabel ... bOsS-AM%3A" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

TR'sGhost · Post by **TR'sGhost** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 11:05 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:Just what is it with these people?
Internet troll facing prison for sending anti-semitic threats to Labour MP Luciana Berger
John Nimmo told Ms Berger she would ‘get it like Jo Cox’

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/peopl ... 58551.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In the case of this troll, it seems what's wrong with him is he's a big fan of one of Adolf's admirers, a certain obnoxious Joshua, the self styled "rising young leader of the right". Young Josh is currently dining and residing at Her Majesty's expense for the next year or so at least for a collection of offences.

I do wonder just how much of the bile hurled towards various Labour MPs and often given by the media as examples of nameless "Corbynite Trotskyist anti-Semites in bullying action" actually originates from the countless sock-puppets of the far right at home and abroad.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 11:09 pm

Goodnight, everyone.
love,
cJA

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 11:37 pm

"campaigns british press"
https://www.google.co.uk/?gws_rd=ssl#q= ... tish+press" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I think there are two things to campaign on while Labour are not in power (should give us quite some time):

- the British (European?) press
- proportional representation

whip up enough support and even the Tories would have to offer the latter

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 11:41 pm

What a massive waste of time and effort.
Brex
It

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 11:44 pm

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/busin ... 56491.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Brexit increased UK's pensions deficit by 115 billion quid from 23 June to July 1.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 11:46 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote: am not an "expert" in english, but am pretty sure there are more than four words beginning with d.

Including defo (recently introduced by OED) and dirge.
But are they words that make you feel all warm and cuddly?
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=mabel ... bOsS-AM%3A" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

defo (in me own way)

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Wed 27 Jul, 2016 11:49 pm

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... cross-left" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
more thoughts on the progressive alliance

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 28 Jul, 2016 12:48 am

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... wth-figure" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Health check of key sectors post-Brexit vote counter growth figure
Signs of retrenchment in construction industry, car factories and high street stores overshadow stronger than expected 0.6% expansion in run-up to vote

extankie · Post by **extankie** » Thu 28 Jul, 2016 6:13 am

ephemerid wrote:And - as the atmosphere here remains a bit tetchy I'll bugger off again, I think.

Don`t blame you, trying to sort the crap out is hard enough. Good previous post, what about all that Welfare stuff? rename the department and let it carry on? As you say, Nothing.

Come back soon:)