Friday 29th July 2016

[utopiandreams]

Speaking of lines that only I appreciate I recently posted a comment I figured worthy of Guardian readers under David Cameron's spin doctor writing book about EU referendum (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... referendum).

I wanted to post 'And I thought it the antics of a jester called Tom, but replaced jester with fool. Even then it seemed too cryptic by far.

[ohsocynical]

The poor girl, ephe. Still in my case I learned never to be intimidated and my sister's a pretty tough cookie herself. My brother was fair so only tended to suffer abuse secondhand, just as painful mind when it happened... always outnumbered or older lads. Mmm outnumbered then too. No wonder we were taught to box, but then my namesake and late uncle was an armed forces champion in India.

My granddaughter who's 23 told us the other day - and for the first time - how she was bullied at school because she has a brother and sister with special needs. She is fiercely protective of them. I could have wept. We had guessed it was likely, but she never once let on.

[Willow904]

Neoliberalism is a global fact. I think it unrealistic to think Blair could have reversed it, (at least before the 2008 global crash discredited the system ) but he could minimise it, which he mostly did if you compare to its acceleration since. He renationalised Network Rail, an act of common sense, that shows he wasn't wedded to it ideologically as the Tories are. And the NHS was well behind comparable European countries in cancer outcomes at the start of his tenure. He closed that gap. I guess I find the black and whiteness of many Corbyn supporters thinking frustrating and a little hurtful. When they attack the Labour Party I have always supported in all its guises, they are attacking me a little too. It's a part of the reason I feel less and less welcome. And I appreciate new Corbyn joiners haven't been made to feel very welcome, either, but joining a club and telling a significant proportion of the existing members they're wrong or 'Red Tories' isn't the most diplomatic of starts. Many here keep saying Labour needed this debate, but I'm not finding it very fruitful. There seem to be two sides, both of which seem determined to 'win', but win what exactly? Not votes, that's for sure. Being told that the PLP 'started it' doesn't change the fact that I have now completely lost what little confidence I had in Corbyn, not because of a hostile media, but because of what he himself has said post-referendum. I'm not saying this to change minds, just to show there are other points of view.

[ohsocynical]

CoiPHQjUEAArWm2.jpg (45.63 KiB) Viewed 9040 times

[howsillyofme1]

Neoliberalism is a global fact. I think it unrealistic to think Blair could have reversed it, (at least before the 2008 global crash discredited the system ) but he could minimise it, which he mostly did if you compare to its acceleration since. He renationalised Network Rail, an act of common sense, that shows he wasn't wedded to it ideologically as the Tories are. And the NHS was well behind comparable European countries in cancer outcomes at the start of his tenure. He closed that gap. I guess I find the black and whiteness of many Corbyn supporters thinking frustrating and a little hurtful. When they attack the Labour Party I have always supported in all its guises, they are attacking me a little too. It's a part of the reason I feel less and less welcome. And I appreciate new Corbyn joiners haven't been made to feel very welcome, either, but joining a club and telling a significant proportion of the existing members they're wrong or 'Red Tories' isn't the most diplomatic of starts. Many here keep saying Labour needed this debate, but I'm not finding it very fruitful. There seem to be two sides, both of which seem determined to 'win', but win what exactly? Not votes, that's for sure. Being told that the PLP 'started it' doesn't change the fact that I have now completely lost what little confidence I had in Corbyn, not because of a hostile media, but because of what he himself has said post-referendum. I'm not saying this to change minds, just to show there are other points of view.

I respect what you say about Cprbyn post-referendum but I am afraid I just don't see it.

I don't think it was a primary cause of the PLP rebellion that had been months in planning and I don't think it was material in anything regarding the post-referendum situation

I happen to agree with him that we should get on with it as soon as possible - and it has a more material affect on me than most on here so I don't say this lightly.

The worst thing about the post-referendum situation from the Labour point of view was the mendacious blaming of Labour and him personally for the loss - and I was disgusted by the reaction of some Labour MPs - some of whom I would have out of the party now if I was Corbyn...

In fact my criticism is that he has been too weak intaking on some of those who seem to have no interest in labour....Jamie Reed personally tweeted his admiration for the PM and some Labour MPs gave him a standing ovation when he left - this was the man who is absolutely to blame for Brexit but that doesn't seem to matter to them

[Rebecca]

Neoliberalism is a global fact. I think it unrealistic to think Blair could have reversed it, (at least before the 2008 global crash discredited the system ) but he could minimise it, which he mostly did if you compare to its acceleration since. He renationalised Network Rail, an act of common sense, that shows he wasn't wedded to it ideologically as the Tories are. And the NHS was well behind comparable European countries in cancer outcomes at the start of his tenure. He closed that gap. I guess I find the black and whiteness of many Corbyn supporters thinking frustrating and a little hurtful. When they attack the Labour Party I have always supported in all its guises, they are attacking me a little too. It's a part of the reason I feel less and less welcome. And I appreciate new Corbyn joiners haven't been made to feel very welcome, either, but joining a club and telling a significant proportion of the existing members they're wrong or 'Red Tories' isn't the most diplomatic of starts. Many here keep saying Labour needed this debate, but I'm not finding it very fruitful. There seem to be two sides, both of which seem determined to 'win', but win what exactly? Not votes, that's for sure. Being told that the PLP 'started it' doesn't change the fact that I have now completely lost what little confidence I had in Corbyn, not because of a hostile media, but because of what he himself has said post-referendum. I'm not saying this to change minds, just to show there are other points of view.

I respect what you say about Cprbyn post-referendum but I am afraid I just don't see it.

I don't think it was a primary cause of the PLP rebellion that had been months in planning and I don't think it was material in anything regarding the post-referendum situation

I happen to agree with him that we should get on with it as soon as possible - and it has a more material affect on me than most on here so I don't say this lightly.

The worst thing about the post-referendum situation from the Labour point of view was the mendacious blaming of Labour and him personally for the loss - and I was disgusted by the reaction of some Labour MPs - some of whom I would have out of the party now if I was Corbyn...

In fact my criticism is that he has been too weak intaking on some of those who seem to have no interest in labour....Jamie Reed personally tweeted his admiration for the PM and some Labour MPs gave him a standing ovation when he left - this was the man who is absolutely to blame for Brexit but that doesn't seem to matter to them

I agree 100%
Too busy blaming Corbyn,so letting the people who brought this about get away with it all.
I found nothing amiss with Corbyns' post ref speech.Sensible.
There were people posting here a few weeks ago,usual anti Corbyn stuff,he went on holiday during the pre referendum period.
This is not true,he did no such thing.Just the usual rumour put about because IT IS ALL HIS FAULT.
So it seems that if Corbyn wins this September,the people who are unhappy with that will not support him,but If Smith wins we will be told that everyone should unite and support him.
Anyway,Willow,if Smith wins you won't need to worry about those wretched 'Corbynites' making you feel unwelcome.They will leave the party.

[ohsocynical]

Jeremy Corbyn destroys one of the biggest myths about his leadership in just 30 seconds [VIDEO]


http://www.thecanary.co/2016/07/29/jere ... nds-video/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Willow904]

Neoliberalism is a global fact. I think it unrealistic to think Blair could have reversed it, (at least before the 2008 global crash discredited the system ) but he could minimise it, which he mostly did if you compare to its acceleration since. He renationalised Network Rail, an act of common sense, that shows he wasn't wedded to it ideologically as the Tories are. And the NHS was well behind comparable European countries in cancer outcomes at the start of his tenure. He closed that gap. I guess I find the black and whiteness of many Corbyn supporters thinking frustrating and a little hurtful. When they attack the Labour Party I have always supported in all its guises, they are attacking me a little too. It's a part of the reason I feel less and less welcome. And I appreciate new Corbyn joiners haven't been made to feel very welcome, either, but joining a club and telling a significant proportion of the existing members they're wrong or 'Red Tories' isn't the most diplomatic of starts. Many here keep saying Labour needed this debate, but I'm not finding it very fruitful. There seem to be two sides, both of which seem determined to 'win', but win what exactly? Not votes, that's for sure. Being told that the PLP 'started it' doesn't change the fact that I have now completely lost what little confidence I had in Corbyn, not because of a hostile media, but because of what he himself has said post-referendum. I'm not saying this to change minds, just to show there are other points of view.

I respect what you say about Cprbyn post-referendum but I am afraid I just don't see it.

I don't think it was a primary cause of the PLP rebellion that had been months in planning and I don't think it was material in anything regarding the post-referendum situation

I happen to agree with him that we should get on with it as soon as possible - and it has a more material affect on me than most on here so I don't say this lightly.

The worst thing about the post-referendum situation from the Labour point of view was the mendacious blaming of Labour and him personally for the loss - and I was disgusted by the reaction of some Labour MPs - some of whom I would have out of the party now if I was Corbyn...

In fact my criticism is that he has been too weak intaking on some of those who seem to have no interest in labour....Jamie Reed personally tweeted his admiration for the PM and some Labour MPs gave him a standing ovation when he left - this was the man who is absolutely to blame for Brexit but that doesn't seem to matter to them

I agree 100%
Too busy blaming Corbyn,so letting the people who brought this about get away with it all.
I found nothing amiss with Corbyns' post ref speech.Sensible.
There were people posting here a few weeks ago,usual anti Corbyn stuff,he went on holiday during the pre referendum period.
This is not true,he did no such thing.Just the usual rumour put about because IT IS ALL HIS FAULT.
So it seems that if Corbyn wins this September,the people who are unhappy with that will not support him,but If Smith wins we will be told that everyone should unite and support him.
Anyway,Willow,if Smith wins you won't need to worry about those wretched 'Corbynites' making you feel unwelcome.They will leave the party.

Why will they leave the party? I doubt I'll leave if Corbyn wins. I like my two Labour county councillors and hope to see them continuing to represent our village and would like to campaign for them, even if I switch off a little from the national debate. And I'm getting a little frustrated with my personal opinion being muddled up with the PLP. I didn't like Corbyn's response to the EU ref. Me, just me, I'm not talking about anyone else. He chose what to say in his speech and it left me feeling hugely let down in a way I've never really felt about Labour before. I think our country is entering one of the most dangerous political periods of my lifetime. I wish I could have confidence in the Labour leader I'm relying on to represent me, but I'm afraid I just don't.

[utopiandreams]

I've often found myself in complete agreement with you, Willow, and like you felt let down by Corbyn's response post referendum. Nevertheless I couldn't help but feel it a natural reaction to Cameron's behaviour, complete acquiescence and washing his hands of it entirely, without discussion or backing of the PLP. Had he had such support I wonder whether he would have come out fighting. In other regards I haven't seen him enforce his own views above others or adopt a dictatorial stance. Some say he's stubborn, bloody hell if I were in his shoes I'd be far worse.

The question I still have no answer to, and this is not directed at anybody in particular, was a shadow cabinet meeting called and if so did it take place and what was decided? If not, why not?

[ohsocynical]

Labour rebels plan to start their own party if Jeremy Corbyn gets re-elected

Leading moderates disclosed that they are looking at plans to set up their own “alternative Labour” in a “semi-split” of the party if Mr Corbyn remains in post

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/la ... ar_twitter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[AnatolyKasparov]

Seven local council byelections this week:

East Hampshire DC - starting with a Tuesday contest, this saw a Tory hold in a ward that has normally been safe (it was actually unopposed in 2003) but they were this time given a fright by the LibDems who were standing for the first time this century and fell less than 2 per cent short of ousting the blue team (the "swing" - though not strictly applicable in such situations - was effectively over 30 per cent) A "Justice and Anti-Corruption" candidate, who had provided the sole opposition to the Tories here in 2007 and 2011 (the first time as a straight Independent) was a distant third, but ahead of Labour who apparently did no campaigning and this may be one reason why they got less than 4%, well down on last year.

South Hams DC - LibDem gain from Labour, who did not even stand an official candidate (but more on that later) Last May, in the first election here since boundary changes, two Greens and one Labour were returned in this ward (Greens might have won all three with a full slate of candidates) whilst in a previous by-election late last year, Greens held off the LibDems by a handful of votes. This time round the LibDems increased their share to well over 40 per cent - a double figure increase since the by-election and a full 25 points up on GE day, and enough to give them a comfortable victory as the Greens slipped further. Not far behind was an "Independent" who was a de facto Labour candidate - the shenanigans behind the selection (non) process here has recieved some attention in the national media (though attempts to fit it into a "bad Corbynistas" template now seem distinctly simplistic, to put it mildly) Tories a distant last with 7 per cent, well down on both 2015 poll - though this is a strikingly bad area for them locally, they got neither councillors elected in the two predecessor wards locally (though Labour, LibDems Greens and Independents all did)

Cornwall - another LibDem gain, this time from the Tories though this one was with less than a quarter of the vote as this authority saw yet another strikingly fragmented result - Tories saw their share exactly halved from the 46 per cent they got in 2013. Third place went to the first of three Independents, who had been LibDem candidate the last time they had stood here in 2009 (the first unitary elections, when the Tories won quite comfortably here) Three years ago the Mebyon Kernow autonomists had run the Tories close, but now their vote crashed even more than the Tories - into a distant fourth place. Then came Labour - also a bit down - and the other two, very much also ran, Independents.

Sutton - LibDem hold, though there was actually a bit of a swing to the Tories in this one (maybe due to the incumbent resigning under a cloud) This ward has always returned three LibDems this century apart from 2006 when two Tories got elected - but the blues have usually been fairly competitive and achieved a double figure increase this time; given the circumstances the LibDems also did well to increase their share a bit on 2014 to above the 40% mark. Greens barely changed on two years ago, but nonetheless went from fifth then to third now - overtaking both Labour (down 3%) and UKIP (who crashed by 11% and went from third to fifth now) Christian People's Alliance last with just 1% (actually more than halved on 2014)

Haringey - Labour hold with virtually no swing with the second placed LibDems compared with 2014 (both up a bit) Given the recent electoral history here - after winning all three seats in 2002 Labour lost two to the LibDems in 2006 and this continued in 2010; even two years ago the LibDems remained more competitive than in many similar areas - Labour can probably be fairly content given the general LibDem improvement recently in areas that have some prospects for them. Greens a fairly decent third with 14%, though that was bit down on last time - Tories also down slightly in 4th, whilst UKIP's first electoral outing in this ward saw them get less than 2%.

Wychavon DC - Tory hold, increasing their margin over second placed Labour as their share declined by less given the increased electoral competition here since last year. Labour won both seats in this ward in 2003 and one in 2011, but Tory clean sweeps in 2007 and last GE day indicate this area is maybe trending to them long term - which this result also backs up. UKIP polled one of their better showings - nearly 20% - in their first outing here, and the first LibDem showing this millennium also saw them poll decently - over 14%.

Newport - LibDem hold, but that maybe does not tell the whole story. Back in 2012 this was the only LibDem seat on the whole council, and they held on to it by a single vote. By way of contrast, they had easily won all three seats in this ward in both 2004 and 2008 - on the latter occasion Labour were actually forced into third place, but four years later they took two seats (and, as mentioned, nearly all three) on a big swing. This time round, though, the LibDems stormed to victory with over half the vote - beating Labour by over 2 to 1 and with a swing of close to 17%. In their first contest here, UKIP managed to snatch third place from the Tories - who declined further from their second place here in 2008. Plaid Cymru - who were last seen here in 2004 - managed 4%, Greens (also standing for the first time) last with barely 1%.

Seven contests again next week to begin August.

[AngryAsWell]

Another shadow minister explains why she felt she had to resign :
Sharon writes to local Labour Party members on her resignation and her support for Owen Smith MP
http://www.sharonhodgson.org/sharon_wri ... n_smith_mp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
It's long but this bit got me as SEND education matters to me on a personal level, having received no help at all in the '60 when I needed it.

[quote]
This is something I have experienced personally in my capacity as a Shadow Minister for Children. My office and I spent months preparing for a Labour Party review into special educational needs and disabilities (SEND) to feed into Labour’s manifesto for the 2020 General Election. I identified the issues we needed to address; I raised questions in the chamber; I met stakeholders to discuss the review, and my staff put together a briefing for the wider PLP and the Leadership Office, and worked to get media coverage. Three days after the launch, I found out that my review had been completely undermined by our Shadow Chancellor, John McDonnell.

Without consulting me, John had announced his support for a Shadow Neurodiversity Minister and an autism manifesto. My office picked up John’s announcement on Twitter, and subsequently raised the issue with him, requesting an opportunity to meet to discuss the matter further. After receiving no response, my team made several more attempts to reach out to John’s office, which were all met with no answer.

The combination of silence from John’s office and the large number of inquiries from external bodies and the media, left me with no option but to contact Jeremy’s office directly. Instead of support and an offer to resolve the problem, we were simply acknowledged with the sentence, “I appreciate the point”, and then told to expect an apology and clarification later, which never arrived. Indeed, nobody ever reached out to discuss the matter with me.

In all my time in Parliament, I have never experienced such lack of communication or respect for a shadow minister’s work from a Leader. To form a credible and effective opposition, a Leader must work with the PLP and respect the opinions of their shadow ministers. Jeremy needs to lead his MPs as well as the membership. Sadly, Jeremy has failed to fulfil the parliamentary aspect of his role from day one.

[howsillyofme1]

Labour rebels plan to start their own party if Jeremy Corbyn gets re-elected

Leading moderates disclosed that they are looking at plans to set up their own “alternative Labour” in a “semi-split” of the party if Mr Corbyn remains in post

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/la ... ar_twitter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

surely this would be considered as bringing the party into disrepute and would lead to expulsions from the party?

Clearly they would stay as MPs but they would be deselected and have to stand as another party

If any names are leaked then they should be out as this is not just opposing the leader

I guess the NEC will have the final say on all this


To be fair though I would only imagine a minority who would do this and if I was to guess some names they will be no great loss to the party

[PorFavor]

Labour rebels plan to start their own party if Jeremy Corbyn gets re-elected

Leading moderates disclosed that they are looking at plans to set up their own “alternative Labour” in a “semi-split” of the party if Mr Corbyn remains in post

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/la ... ar_twitter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I wouldn't count myself as a "Labour moderate" if this (individually unidentified) grouping comprises of the likes of Hilary Benn, John Mann et al. I think this is part of the problem with the divide here (and elsewhere) between those who virulently support Jeremy Corbyn and those (eg me) who don't.




Edited - typo

And "divide" for "split"

[ohsocynical]

I respect what you say about Cprbyn post-referendum but I am afraid I just don't see it.

I don't think it was a primary cause of the PLP rebellion that had been months in planning and I don't think it was material in anything regarding the post-referendum situation

I happen to agree with him that we should get on with it as soon as possible - and it has a more material affect on me than most on here so I don't say this lightly.

The worst thing about the post-referendum situation from the Labour point of view was the mendacious blaming of Labour and him personally for the loss - and I was disgusted by the reaction of some Labour MPs - some of whom I would have out of the party now if I was Corbyn...

In fact my criticism is that he has been too weak intaking on some of those who seem to have no interest in labour....Jamie Reed personally tweeted his admiration for the PM and some Labour MPs gave him a standing ovation when he left - this was the man who is absolutely to blame for Brexit but that doesn't seem to matter to them

I agree 100%
Too busy blaming Corbyn,so letting the people who brought this about get away with it all.
I found nothing amiss with Corbyns' post ref speech.Sensible.
There were people posting here a few weeks ago,usual anti Corbyn stuff,he went on holiday during the pre referendum period.
This is not true,he did no such thing.Just the usual rumour put about because IT IS ALL HIS FAULT.
So it seems that if Corbyn wins this September,the people who are unhappy with that will not support him,but If Smith wins we will be told that everyone should unite and support him.
Anyway,Willow,if Smith wins you won't need to worry about those wretched 'Corbynites' making you feel unwelcome.They will leave the party.

Why will they leave the party? I doubt I'll leave if Corbyn wins. I like my two Labour county councillors and hope to see them continuing to represent our village and would like to campaign for them, even if I switch off a little from the national debate. And I'm getting a little frustrated with my personal opinion being muddled up with the PLP. I didn't like Corbyn's response to the EU ref. Me, just me, I'm not talking about anyone else. He chose what to say in his speech and it left me feeling hugely let down in a way I've never really felt about Labour before. I think our country is entering one of the most dangerous political periods of my lifetime. I wish I could have confidence in the Labour leader I'm relying on to represent me, but I'm afraid I just don't.

I and I suspect many others will leave because we don't agree with what has been done to Corbyn. He was democratically elected. I refuse to give my vote or my hard earned money albeit by subscription to people that I have no respect for. If I vote for them then I am giving approval to their actions and I will not do that.

I am not supporting Corbyn. I am supporting my version of decency.

[ohsocynical]

I should have added. There are decent MPs still. But if Corbyn loses it won't be one of them taking over. It will be one of the plotters.

[JonnyT1234]

The question I still have no answer to, and this is not directed at anybody in particular, was a shadow cabinet meeting called and if so did it take place and what was decided? If not, why not?

Timeline of events:

Thu 23 Jun: EU Referendum
Fri 24 Jun: Leave victory declared. Corbyn makes his speech in reaction to the declaration, seemingly without calling a shadow cabinet meeting.
Sat 25 Jun: Hillary Benn calls shadow cabinet colleagues to instigate plot to oust Corbyn (however, this may well have started on Fri, as far as we know)
Sun 26 Jun (just about): Benn is sacked after admitting his part in starting the coup.
Sun 26 Jun: Shadow cabinet ministers start resigning at orchestrated hourly gaps. Or, if you are Hugo, in a totally random and not at all planned manner that just happened to be very orderly.

Struggling to see when Corbyn could call his shadow cabinet given that there was only about [at most] a 24 hour window between the declaration of the result [edit: and the start of the coup] where it could remotely be thought of as feasible. And that's assuming everyone was available (presumably most MPs were in their constituencies because, y'know, unlike Corbyn they were working their socks off to get out the vote for Remain) and that you can include the whole of Sat night time within that 24 hours.

[ohsocynical]

Labour rebels plan to start their own party if Jeremy Corbyn gets re-elected

Leading moderates disclosed that they are looking at plans to set up their own “alternative Labour” in a “semi-split” of the party if Mr Corbyn remains in post

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/la ... ar_twitter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I wouldn't count myself as a "Labour moderate" if this (individually unidentified) grouping comprises of the likes of Hilary Benn, John Mann et al. I think this is part of the problem with the divide here (and elsewhere) between those who virulently support Jeremy Corbyn and those (eg me) who don't.




Edited - typo

And "divide" for "split"

Moderate sounds much better. And makes those who support Corbyn look even more to the left.

I'm afraid that's the title they've given themselves so you'll be stuck with it.

[howsillyofme1]

No-one was brave enough to stand against Brown (except McDonnell) but he was undermined
Ed Miliband was elected as leader but he was undermined (remember the vile 'backstabber' comments?)
Corbyn was elected leader under new rules that were supposed to be better for the 'moderates' and he has been more than undermined

The last three leaders were all undermined by people who didn't accept their victories - democracy is only good if it gives their result

This suggests a problem does exist, a canker at the heart of the party, and it isn't at the leadership level

He is clearly not the best political leader but that does not excuse the behaviour we have seen

[howsillyofme1]

The question I still have no answer to, and this is not directed at anybody in particular, was a shadow cabinet meeting called and if so did it take place and what was decided? If not, why not?

Timeline of events:

Thu 23 Jun: EU Referendum
Fri 24 Jun: Leave victory declared. Corbyn makes his speech in reaction to the declaration, seemingly without calling a shadow cabinet meeting.
Sat 25 Jun: Hillary Benn calls shadow cabinet colleagues to instigate plot to oust Corbyn (however, this may well have started on Fri, as far as we know)
Sun 26 Jun (just about): Benn is sacked after admitting his part in starting the coup.
Sun 26 Jun: Shadow cabinet ministers start resigning at orchestrated hourly gaps. Or, if you are Hugo, in a totally random and not at all planned manner that just happened to be very orderly.

Struggling to see when Corbyn could call his shadow cabinet given that there was only about a 24 hour window between the declaration of the result where it could remotely be thought of as feasible. And that's assuming everyone was available (presumably most MPs were in their constituencies because, y'know, unlike Corbyn they were working their socks off to get out the vote for Remain) and that you can include the whole of Sat night time within that 24 hours.

Are those the ones in constituencies which voted Leave but it was nothing to do with them but the fault of Corbyn that this happened.....Stephen Kinnock must be so influential over his constituents if they have somehow the idea that leaving the EU will help South Wales and the steelworks

[TR'sGhost]

Not that I want to inspire any of you to start a campaign to get it introduced but, if I did in fact have to do it, using my real name online would prevent me from pretty much commenting on anything due to the nature of my work. Particularly during any periods of purdah.

Similar reasons mean MrsTRG doesn't have a Facebook account, doesn't participate in "social media" at all in fact. The first is the same reason you give, the second is that she's an enforcer of regulations upon employers and a public prosecutor. Which means she's careful not to have an internet presence that could be spun into anything that could be used to try and discredit her.

It has a knock-on effect on me as well. Her second reason is partly why I'm very wary of what I publish online under my own name to avoid her being smeared by association.

[JonnyT1234]

And I appreciate new Corbyn joiners haven't been made to feel very welcome, either

I think this qualifies as THE understatement of the year.

Entryists
Trots
Hard left
Socialist Workers
Thugs
Scum
Bullies
Anti-Semites
Mysogynists
Communists
And probably much more.

All these are things that the new members - no matter who they are, what they think, how moderate they are - have been called. And that's by Labour MPs, never mind other members.

[TR'sGhost]

like to think that I use this privilege and help any moderators, at least by not being openly abusive - although I think I got modded a long time ago on the Guardian's tech site a couple of times. I didn't know why at the time (wasn't for abuse) but I suppose that any kind of 'argument' over a disputed state of affairs or history can be taken as personal by journalists who are expressing their opinions freely and openly.

If you're referring to the person I suspect you are, I first came across and argued with, let's say "one of the Guardian's longer-standing technology correspondents", back on the old CiX conferencing system circa 1991. The correspondent I'm thinking of has a long-term love-affair with "solutions" from a company based Redmond and was just as touchy about being criticised for that then as they are now.

I've been moderated quite a few times by the Guardian, even had one account obliterated without warning for no reason I've ever worked out. Though I suspect referring to the unlamented an not missed in the slightest Julian Glover as "the boy Glover"* really, really got under someone's skin.

*a term used with apologies to the late John Peel and P G Wodehouse

[sputnikkers]

I will have to make my statement in the next GE, by holding my nose and, as a protest, voting 'Tory'. .

That seems daft to me, and doesn't follow from the rest. I've no sympathy at all for Corbyn and don't belong in a party led by him, but that doesn't mean you have to vote Tory for heaven's sake.

And @JustMom

Why not vote green if you must protest,or even spoil your vote,but tory !!!

Yes, I suppose it does seem a little counterintuitive (as do many things feeding into my standing, hence my unwillingness to join any political party) and I will provide a little clarification but a complete 'justification' would involve my full exposition of my brand of socialism.

At the moment I live in a very safe Tory seat. I only vote Labour as a tiny gesture to be counted in the National totals. So my puny vote will be a tiny protest against what I believe is going to be a disastrous campaign if still fronted by Corbyn and the disastrous political tactics presently being imposed by an unaccountable astroturfed membership on a relatively sensible set of MPs with relatively sensible policies, sensible long term political tactics and sensible message for the country. Yes, it will probably do more psychological damage to me than to Corbyn's leadership but it is a gesture! The 'Tory' part, rather than Green, abstention, spoiled or even rejoining my own Militant Apathy Party (presently dormant) is part of that gesture against those believing this movement is part of some 'progressive alliance' or great social movement.

Unfortunately, at a time when there will be tremendous opportunities for some to exploit the changes that are to come we need to allow people and the economy to do that and grow without promoting 'progressive' policies that are going to contribute towards stagnation and probably work against the lowest three deciles of the income distribution.

Pragmatically, if May responds sensibly to the referendum vote she has a tremendous chance to recalibrate the economy and (perhaps even using UC!) the welfare system back to a position more like the Blair/Brown successes: reducing child and pensioner (and in-work family) poverty, reducing unemployment with incentives into employment that work (particularly single parent) and overall benefits costs as proportion of GDP, (providing 'some' better local services in the Tory fashion), while achieving consistent productivity growth levels above the rest of our major partner economies, continuing to catch up a little on previous large gaps. All while getting the total national debt/GDP down to the lowest ever level since the beginning of the Union. I assume the Tories will want to regain the kind of economic results and credibility that New Labour actually achieved rather than the illusory one achieved/portrayed by Osborne's actual stagnation. If, as I believe they 'might', make such offerings to capture the Brexit voters it will be game over anyway.

Sorry, inadequate and increasingly incoherent, but too long already. Stop!

[JonnyT1234]

like to think that I use this privilege and help any moderators, at least by not being openly abusive - although I think I got modded a long time ago on the Guardian's tech site a couple of times. I didn't know why at the time (wasn't for abuse) but I suppose that any kind of 'argument' over a disputed state of affairs or history can be taken as personal by journalists who are expressing their opinions freely and openly.

If you're referring to the person I suspect you are, I first came across and argued with, let's say "one of the Guardian's longer-standing technology correspondents", back on the old CiX conferencing system circa 1991. The correspondent I'm thinking of has a long-term love-affair with "solutions" from a company based Redmond and was just as touchy about being criticised for that then as they are now.

I've been moderated quite a few times by the Guardian, even had one account obliterated without warning for no reason I've ever worked out. Though I suspect referring to the unlamented an not missed in the slightest Julian Glover as "the boy Glover"* really, really got under someone's skin.

*a term used with apologies to the late John Peel and P G Wodehouse

Teehee. I know exactly who you're talking about and I had a little run in with him too for daring to question his blatant bias for one tech company over all others.

Obviously, I've been moderated by the Guardian more times than I care to remember having been variously rude, extremely rude, and downright bonkers mad at some people. Oh, how embarrassing. What a fool I have been.

[utopiandreams]

... Fri 24 Jun: Leave victory declared. Corbyn makes his speech in reaction to the declaration, seemingly without calling a shadow cabinet meeting...

Seemingly still doesn't answer my question though, JonnyT. Other than Corbyn's response to Cameron at the dispatch box I've heard no account of Friday's events. Were the PLP already out for Corbyn instead of attacking Cameron before the weekend?

[utopiandreams]

Just to be clear, if parliament did not categorically overrule the referendum result delaying Article 50 only makes matters worse. It exhibits the same level of disrespect that was shown to EDF yesterday.

[JonnyT1234]

... Fri 24 Jun: Leave victory declared. Corbyn makes his speech in reaction to the declaration, seemingly without calling a shadow cabinet meeting...

Seemingly still doesn't answer my question though, JonnyT. Other than Corbyn's response to Cameron at the dispatch box I've heard no account of Friday's events.

I'm afraid it's an answer no one here can provide. I'm just trying to show that the window of opportunity, if it were indeed missed, was not exactly large. It is, of course, quite feasible that Corbyn didn't bother to call one and wouldn't have done anyway even if it wasn't that small. But we will never know.

Were the PLP already out for Corbyn instead of attacking Cameron before the weekend?

For a significant number of them, since around about September 2015.

[howsillyofme1]

I will have to make my statement in the next GE, by holding my nose and, as a protest, voting 'Tory'. .

That seems daft to me, and doesn't follow from the rest. I've no sympathy at all for Corbyn and don't belong in a party led by him, but that doesn't mean you have to vote Tory for heaven's sake.

And @JustMom

Why not vote green if you must protest,or even spoil your vote,but tory !!!

Yes, I suppose it does seem a little counterintuitive (as do many things feeding into my standing, hence my unwillingness to join any political party) and I will provide a little clarification but a complete 'justification' would involve my full exposition of my brand of socialism.

At the moment I live in a very safe Tory seat. I only vote Labour as a tiny gesture to be counted in the National totals. So my puny vote will be a tiny protest against what I believe is going to be a disastrous campaign if still fronted by Corbyn and the disastrous political tactics presently being imposed by an unaccountable astroturfed membership on a relatively sensible set of MPs with relatively sensible policies, sensible long term political tactics and sensible message for the country. Yes, it will probably do more psychological damage to me than to Corbyn's leadership but it is a gesture! The 'Tory' part, rather than Green, abstention, spoiled or even rejoining my own Militant Apathy Party (presently dormant) is part of that gesture against those believing this movement is part of some 'progressive alliance' or great social movement.

Unfortunately, at a time when there will be tremendous opportunities for some to exploit the changes that are to come we need to allow people and the economy to do that and grow without promoting 'progressive' policies that are going to contribute towards stagnation and probably work against the lowest three deciles of the income distribution.

Pragmatically, if May responds sensibly to the referendum vote she has a tremendous chance to recalibrate the economy and (perhaps even using UC!) the welfare system back to a position more like the Blair/Brown successes: reducing child and pensioner (and in-work family) poverty, reducing unemployment with incentives into employment that work (particularly single parent) and overall benefits costs as proportion of GDP, (providing 'some' better local services in the Tory fashion), while achieving consistent productivity growth levels above the rest of our major partner economies, continuing to catch up a little on previous large gaps. All while getting the total national debt/GDP down to the lowest ever level since the beginning of the Union. I assume the Tories will want to regain the kind of economic results and credibility that New Labour actually achieved rather than the illusory one achieved/portrayed by Osborne's actual stagnation. If, as I believe they 'might', make such offerings to capture the Brexit voters it will be game over anyway.

Sorry, inadequate and increasingly incoherent, but too long already. Stop!

Has may or any Tory Government ever, in any way, indicated they will do the things you want?

Blair/Brown managed to do their good things in favourable financial circumstances

We are now in a completely different era - more akin to the post-war period than to the 97 period and to achieve what Blair/Brown did may need some radically different approaches such as more, not less, Government involvement in investment etc.

Clearly a difficult proposition in the world we have but the whole of the West is stagnating

And don't forget we have climate change coming on the horizon!

[PorFavor]

Labour rebels plan to start their own party if Jeremy Corbyn gets re-elected

Leading moderates disclosed that they are looking at plans to set up their own “alternative Labour” in a “semi-split” of the party if Mr Corbyn remains in post

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/la ... ar_twitter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I wouldn't count myself as a "Labour moderate" if this (individually unidentified) grouping comprises of the likes of Hilary Benn, John Mann et al. I think this is part of the problem with the divide here (and elsewhere) between those who virulently support Jeremy Corbyn and those (eg me) who don't.




Edited - typo

And "divide" for "split"

Moderate sounds much better. And makes those who support Corbyn look even more to the left.

I'm afraid that's the title they've given themselves so you'll be stuck with it.

Why should I be stuck with it? I don't count myself as being with "them" if they are who I think they are. I simply think that Jeremy Corbyn is not leadership material. That doesn't necessarily make me on any other grouping's "side". I should no more be "stuck with it" than should all of Jeremy Corbyn supporters be "stuck with" the hard left label.

[PorFavor]

Night night.

[JustMom]

does this mean you won't be voting labour?

[citizenJA]

Goodnight, PorFavor.

[PorFavor]

does this mean you won't be voting labour?

Quick one afore bed - not sure whether or not that question's for me. If it is, then if Jeremy Corbyn is still leader and doesn't say or do anything extreme that I really can't go along with (sorry - too tired to elaborate) then I'll still be voting Labour.


Edit

"if" for "unless"

Told you I was tired . . . .

[JustMom]

Thanks porfavor,i'm not too clever with the quote thingy yet,sorry.

[TR'sGhost]

I used to live in Jess Phillips neck of the woods back then and people literally spat at my parents in the street, a blue eyed blonde with an Indian chap. You should have heard the comments too, indeed we kids were smacked if we spoke like them (sorry howsillyofme1, not quite the Black Country).

Postscript: I hope I remember hsom's origins correctly.

you have indeed - lovely Wolverhampton, and from part of the town officially in the Black Country (a perennial argument of where it stops and starts!)

While there is some debate even amongst locals about the extent of the Black Country, the only critically important thing for visiting outsiders to grasp is that the Black Country most definitely is not, repeat NOT, Berminjam.

Birmingham being where the much badly-parodied sing-song accent comes from. The city was once part of Warwickshire, mush of the population movement into the city in the 19th century came from Warwickshire and Brum's quite close to Stratford-on-Avon. Which means that Wm Shakespeare himself almost certainly had an accent very similar to the despised Brummie. Which fact-ette can be a useful conversation-stopper if used with care and timing.

[PorFavor]

Night night. And I mean that most sincerely, folks . . . .

[JustMom]

night porfavor.

[TR'sGhost]

see the Cameron/Osborne Hinckley C nuclear power station seems to be in a bit of bother

The project itself is very weak but the sheer incompetence in managing the project in unbelievable.......Cameron was still a better leader than Corbyn and Miliband though according to all those Westminster commentators!

I'm still awaiting an explanation from a Conservative why it's fine for the French, Chinese, any government in the world to own chunks of Britain's infrastructure and vital services. Any government in fact, other than the British one.

Is it that the Tories think Tories are the worst government in the world at running such things?

[citizenJA]

Goodnight, everyone.
love,
cJA

[ohsocynical]

I wouldn't count myself as a "Labour moderate" if this (individually unidentified) grouping comprises of the likes of Hilary Benn, John Mann et al. I think this is part of the problem with the divide here (and elsewhere) between those who virulently support Jeremy Corbyn and those (eg me) who don't.




Edited - typo

And "divide" for "split"

Moderate sounds much better. And makes those who support Corbyn look even more to the left.

I'm afraid that's the title they've given themselves so you'll be stuck with it.

Why should I be stuck with it? I don't count myself as being with "them" if they are who I think they are. I simply think that Jeremy Corbyn is not leadership material. That doesn't necessarily make me on any other grouping's "side". I should no more be "stuck with it" than should all of Jeremy Corbyn supporters be "stuck with" the hard left label.

I merely meant if you don't vote Corbyn, then you'll be classed as a moderate. The press are beginning to use the term. That's what it'll be from now on.

[TR'sGhost]

If anyone wants to blame Corbyn for his multitude of apparent failures, or Smith for that matter' then I will only take them seriously if they have not praised the past incompetent PM as being a 'better leader and PM'!

I'll not take them seriously if they've used any words less damning than "utterly incompetent" about Cameron and his government.

[HindleA]

1.Been member since just after my balls dropped and stopped talking like Tiny Tim
2.Always welcomed new members,never claimed the I'm more Labour than you thing
3.On the other hand if you are continually telling me to go join another party if I disagree on Corbyn,turds are being thrown at your friends and acquantancies and people that you have worked with and an attempt to suggest throwing turds with no regard to having a brief thought on effect on any sort of chance of engagement is met with an even bigger turd thrown your way,shall.we say patience and tolerance is rather exhausted.So if you hear we want our Party back,which I don't use,it is from those experiencing such things,in my area certainly the not our party lot are also stirring the pot as they do.
4.It is called having a different opinion and hoping for basic manners and a bit of respect if that sounds priggish,I'd call it attempting to be a bit human rather than a Dalek extermination force.I is what I is and certainly not the false portrayal of troll,ender of free speech or whatever nonsense you can come up with,apart from the secret agent bit which is of course true.


5.Stick a banana up your jacksie and do the splits,guaranteed that one.


Love you all,regardless.

Agent To be confirmed,lost in post.

[refitman]

Thanks porfavor,i'm not too clever with the quote thingy yet,sorry.

There's a guide to posting, including how Quotes work, on the main Politics page: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=181" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[howsillyofme1]

1.Been member since just after my balls dropped and stopped talking like Tiny Tim
2.Always welcomed new members,never claimed the I'm more Labour than you thing
3.On the other hand if you are continually telling me to go join another party if I disagree on Corbyn,turds are being thrown at your friends and acquantancies and people that you have worked with and an attempt to suggest throwing turds with no regard to having a brief thought on effect on any sort of chance of engagement is met with an even bigger turd thrown your way,shall.we say patience and tolerance is rather exhausted.So if you hear we want our Party back,which I don't use,it is from those experiencing such things,in my area certainly the not our party lot are also stirring the pot as they do.
4.It is called having a different opinion and hoping for basic manners and a bit of respect if that sounds priggish,I'd call it attempting to be a bit human rather than a Dalek extermination force.I is what I is and certainly not the false portrayal of troll,ender of free speech or whatever nonsense you can come up with,apart from the secret agent bit which is of course true.


5.Stick a banana up your jacksie and do the splits,guaranteed that one.


Love you all,regardless.

Agent To be confirmed,lost in post.

Hindle - who has been saying that if you do not like Corbyn you have to leave the party?

[JonnyT1234]

Just a quick reminder to anyone who is still awake. Apocalypse. Less than 30 minutes away.

[RogerOThornhill]

see the Cameron/Osborne Hinckley C nuclear power station seems to be in a bit of bother

The project itself is very weak but the sheer incompetence in managing the project in unbelievable.......Cameron was still a better leader than Corbyn and Miliband though according to all those Westminster commentators!

I'm still awaiting an explanation from a Conservative why it's fine for the French, Chinese, any government in the world to own chunks of Britain's infrastructure and vital services. Any government in fact, other than the British one.

Is it that the Tories think Tories are the worst government in the world at running such things?

I saw the Newsnight item on this and find it utterly baffling that when interest rates are the lowest they've ever been that we're relying on the Chinese to stump up £6bn with all the security risks that this entails...instead of simply borrowing it ourselves!

[JustMom]

Refitman ,thanks for that but my fingers are very stiff and painful,won't do as they're told half the time but I will look.

[RogerOThornhill]

Just a quick reminder to anyone who is still awake. Apocalypse. Less than 30 minutes away.

Oh right.

So all that effort trying to get the cat into the dining room for the night was wasted?

[RogerOThornhill]

Incidentally, I see la Birbalsigngh described as a "Superhead" - those are the ones which crash and burn after being the DfE's darlings for a while -Sir Greg Martin being a classic example.

There's an awful lot of different takes on that story but most are pretty horrified at the standard of English in the letter. If something is going out in your name you damn well check it yourself before it goes out!