Saturday 30th and Sunday 31st July 2016

extankie · Post by **extankie** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 5:17 am

Morning all..nice to see end of the world failed again:)

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 6:33 am

There is a stretch of road that whenever I pass during daylight hours a lady is busying herself picking up litter. Right in the middle of her patch this morning is a huge pile of poo, I assume it's dog. It truly is the end of the world!

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 6:48 am

I've just been asked whether it feels like fifty years ago. Well no it doesn't really... and then I remember that a football was a cross between a pumpkin and a medicine ball.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 7:50 am

Apocalypse postponed. Again. All Jeremy Corbyn's fault. Again.

Just how low will this man stoop to win a leadership election? Saving the whole world and all its flora and fauna. That's how low. The man is despicable.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 7:56 am

utopiandreams wrote:I've just been asked whether it feels like fifty years ago. Well no it doesn't really... and then I remember that a football was a cross between a pumpkin and a medicine ball.

Well, if you like, we can throw one at your head then not only will it feel like the 1960s again, you'll actually be so concussed you'll think it is the 1960s again. We could even blame Harold Wilson for it. After all, it will be all his fault.

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 8:10 am

Perhaps something I said yesterday was in poor taste given its extent, having read 'What law am I breaking?' How a Facebook troll came undone (https://www.theguardian.com/media/2016/ ... ame-undone). Nevertheless I still feel they are denied oxuygen by refusing to engage thereby preventing escalation.

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 8:13 am

But can you remember what it was like to head a soggy football back in those days, Jonny, or are you too young?

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 8:35 am

From Private Eye, shows nothing is new, just the people change.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CoEsKYYWIAAVBV3.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 8:41 am

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/busin ... 62561.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Ford has said it will consider closing its two remaining UK automobile factories, both of which are in towns where the majority of people voted to leave the EU, to cover costs of $1 billion over the next two years.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 8:50 am

JonnyT1234 wrote:Apocalypse postponed. Again. All Jeremy Corbyn's fault. Again.

Just how low will this man stoop to win a leadership election? Saving the whole world and all its flora and fauna. That's how low. The man is despicable.

I don't think you're giving RogerOThornhill's cat (who worked miracles from the dining room) the credit he\she deserves.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 8:53 am

Good morfternoon.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 8:53 am

yahyah wrote:From Private Eye, shows nothing is new, just the people change.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CoEsKYYWIAAVBV3.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Quite

The issue at the moment though is not actually putting up a challenger until absolutely forced to - it was supposed to be a forced resignation not a contest between him and someone else

The rules for challenging the leader were clear (to me at least) and the High Court agreed - most of the discussions a month ago were about excluding the leader from the contest completely

There is nothing wrong with a leadership challenge but if you lose it then you need to row back somewhat

The situation now is more complicated than the past as there is a much more heavy membership element to the election of leader

In the past the leader of the party was essentially the choice of the PLP and the unions and over time the influences have changed and now the leader can be seen as the leader of the party in the country

These added tensions have made the situation all more complex as the PLP is clearly disconnected from the membership

If the PLP had made this an election on 'leadership' from the off then they may have stood a chance...well a better one anyway. The refusal to serve in the SC, the consistent sniping in the press, the similarities to how Miliband was treated and, to top it off, the recent inept attempt to remove him have all made that much more difficult

The PLP has given anything but an indication of competence and the fact that the only challengers to be found were Eagle and Smith shows the lack of alternatives

Why are there so few capable politicians at the top of the Labour Party?

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 8:56 am

http://indy100.independent.co.uk/articl ... paign=i100" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
continuing the lunch letter story from yesterday.

This policy is disgusting - and the letter itself the worst and most vindictive possible way to implement it.

Starting with "Dear Families".

And I thought I was a git.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 9:02 am

I agree about the need to row back.
We seem in the worst of all worlds with the situation as it is, incompetence on both sides and no wide choice of candidates.

Your last sentence pins down the problem.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 9:04 am

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/bre ... 60796.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Mark Steel
a clanger's author of choice

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 9:06 am

JonnyT1234 wrote:Apocalypse postponed. Again. All Jeremy Corbyn's fault. Again.

Just how low will this man stoop to win a leadership election? Saving the whole world and all its flora and fauna. That's how low. The man is despicable.

He's a monster, I tell you!

I've said it before and I'll say it again - he is the evil mastermind behind Marathon bars being re-named Snickers, the holes in loo roll tubes getting bigger by the price rise, the demise of Bambi's mother, and BARRY SCOTT!!!!! leaving our TV screens.

As he's very very old indeed, I suspect there is a sinister reason why he has never been seen in the same room as Niccolo Machiavelli.

That's all I'm saying......

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 9:10 am

Do those of you who oppose Corbyn on here understand why those who accept him or support him as leader are so frustrated when articles like this appear?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... ey-freeman" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Do you think that this is going to make people like me more or less likely to harden my opinion

Are these journalists all incredibly stupid, incredibly manipulative or just liars

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 9:30 am

edited to remove, because what is the point ?

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 9:31 am

Bankers.

RBS is mostly owned by us. RBS/Lloyd's lost £8 Billion in paper losses recently, so the planned sell-off has been postponed.

Another 3,000 jobs are to go, on top of tens of thousands already lost since the financial crisis.

The CEO, Ross McEwan, received a pay/perks package of £3.8 Million last year.

That's 165 newly-qualified doctors, 200 new police officers, and 292 care workers.

People were discussing inequality here the other day. Here it is.

In 1998, CEO's of FTSE companies were paid 47 times the salary of their average employee.
In 2015, CEO's of FTSE companies were paid 143 times the pay of their average employee.

For those who believe that inequality is not an issue, think again.

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 9:34 am

yahyah wrote:From Private Eye, shows nothing is new, just the people change.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CoEsKYYWIAAVBV3.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The behaviour is strikingly like that of the 'Unseen University' Wizards in Terry Pratchett's earlier books.

Regardless of whether I want Smith or Corbyn to be elected, the main issue for me now is the undemocratic behaviour of part of the plp, in letting it be known that if Corbyn remains in charge they'll try to set up an alternative cabinet or split.
Isn't this the same as threatening voters if they don't vote a certain way (crudely, vote against corbyn, or we'll burn your house down).
It's one thing being aware that your vote might lead to a certain outcome, another thing being actively threatened.
Isn't this breaking some sort of rules or possibly laws?

Edited: apology for 'burn your house down' it's a clumsy analogy, it's more like setting fire to the community tent.(pointed out by smarter partner)

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 9:37 am

yahyah wrote:Manipulative articles appear about politicians of all persuasions.
The modern media, with its reliance on quick reads and Twitter links, is full of them.

There's a lot to disagree with in Freeman's piece, but her point in the penultimate paragraph has been shown to have some veracity. See what has happened here, just a microcosm of that.
Social media sends lies, smears and insults around the world in less time than it takes to brew a cuppa.

Corbyn's first conference ended with Chairman of the Board's ''Working on the Building of Love''.
When I heard it the possibilities seemed endless.

But where is that spirit of love in the party ?
If people cannot find it in their hearts to hear what they don't want to hear, and demonise others who disagree it is all just a naive dream.

I am disappointed in that response yah yah - this piece is another disgrace to journalistic comment

We have the bloody fashion contributor writing about something she clearly doesn't seem to understand as she just repeats things as facts which have either been discredited or, at least, misreported

Yes, politicians are all subject to manipulative press - some of them, such as Cameron and Blair, got it manipulated very positively for them. The problem for Cameron is he forgot this when he was trying to support Remain and he saw the other side

Politicians like Brown, Miliband, Corbyn, and even Clegg have all been systematically attacked and Cornyn has been subject to an onslaught of negative coverage not seen before

And comparing Corbyn supporters to cultists is frankly offensive

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 9:39 am

yahyah wrote:edited to remove, because what is the point ?

The point is that it is part of the reason why Corbyn is still going to be Labour leader in September

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 9:46 am

howsillyofme1 wrote:Do those of you who oppose Corbyn on here understand why those who accept him or support him as leader are so frustrated when articles like this appear?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... ey-freeman" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Do you think that this is going to make people like me more or less likely to harden my opinion

Are these journalists all incredibly stupid, incredibly manipulative or just liars

Professional troll Milo Yiannopoulos was recently banned from Twitter after his fans bombarded Ghostbusters actress Leslie Jones with racist and sexist abuse. His supporters complained the abuse hadn’t come from Yiannopoulos directly. But he watched it happen and, as well as saying nothing, stirred the pot by retweeting offensive messages..

I would say that Hadley Freeman is acting in a very similar way to the Troll she mentioned.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 10:06 am

Hadley Freeman wrote a book called "be awesome" in which she advised:

"Being single is often awesome. You can leave a party when you want to, whether that be 9pm or 9am; you don't have to live in fear of ever hearing yourself described as “my better half”; and you can spend all day lying on the sofa in your pajamas watching Murder She Wrote and eating peanut butter straight out of the jar'‘

As if these are things you can't otherwise do.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 10:24 am

The ridiculously jingoistic and profoundly dense George "Dubya" Bush, when failing to put his case for war, constantly invoked a "you're with us or agin us" rhetoric. This business with Labour reminds me of that.

In terms of supporters/followers, both sides are getting progressively more entrenched, both sides are accusing the other of abuse/threats, both sides are behaving like eejits and I wish they'd just stop.

One thing I have noticed - in both mainstream and social media, MPs who are anti-Corbyn are extremely vocal, some viciously so; but those who support Corbyn are a lot less so.
I'm sure someone will say that McDonnell's swearing the other day proves me wrong; but looking at the media I follow it's the Anti-Corbyn MPs who are doing most of the shouting.

The whole thing is turning into a Dubya-esque "with us or agin us" scenario when the actual arguments are rather more nuanced than the MSM and the noisier elements on both sides would have us believe.

It is perfectly possible for a person with more than a synapse to call their own to think several thoughts simultaneously. I know I do.
Example - I think all of these things at the same time, viz: I have friends who are Israelis and I spent some time on a kibbutz in the 80's which I loved; I was very moved by one friend's mother who had survived the camps but still hoarded food and got visibly agitated if any guest left food on their plate; I do not approve of the Israeli incursion into territories they have no business settling in; I abhor the Israeli Army's recent bombing campaigns and the politics that led to them; I think the Palestinians have had and continue to have a very raw deal; I think Hamas is not necessarily the answer to their prayers; I think they need to stop lobbing bombs at the Israelis and do a bit more for their suffering people; and I think both sides are now beyond reasoning with and that really pisses me off.

The behaviour of the PLP from the day Corbyn's name went on the ballot last year has been appalling and is the main reason why I left Labour.
The behaviour of some elements of the far left has been equally appalling, but there is no doubt that some of it has been exaggerated, conflated, and given more prominence than is strictly fair. The behaviour of certain self-publicists within the PLP has also been appalling.

I think the party needs to split. I don't think that any leader is now capable of uniting the various factions. Because the factions won't allow it.

What a pity it is.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 10:26 am

and the popularity of Corbyn has been mirrored to some extent in the US remember

Sanders has all the same issues Corbyn has - lack of charisma, policies outside mainstream, been around for years but limited power etc etc and he would have been the democratic nominee if it was not for the archaic election rules and also that Clinton, for her many faults, is a phenomenally strong candidate

There is no equivalent to Clinton in the UK Labour Party

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 10:31 am

utopiandreams wrote:But can you remember what it was like to head a soggy football back in those days, Jonny, or are you too young?

My school had a few old balls left knocking around so I now how heavy/lethal as a projectile they were, but not when wet. That knowledge came from my father's experience.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 10:38 am

yahyah wrote:From Private Eye, shows nothing is new, just the people change.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CoEsKYYWIAAVBV3.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The main difference though, is that Corbyn was doing it from the backbenches, not from the front and to the person who appointed him there. It's a slightly tenuous difference, but it's a real one and it does matter to some people.

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 10:40 am

howsillyofme1 wrote:and the popularity of Corbyn has been mirrored to some extent in the US remember

Sanders has all the same issues Corbyn has - lack of charisma, policies outside mainstream, been around for years but limited power etc etc and he would have been the democratic nominee if it was not for the archaic election rules and also that Clinton, for her many faults, is a phenomenally strong candidate

There is no equivalent to Clinton in the UK Labour Party

I was going to suggest Cherie Blair,
but suspect I've misunderstood again

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 10:43 am

In her prime, I would say Margaret Beckett. But our media is much too cruel for her to have stood any chance merely because of her looks.

frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 10:47 am

howsillyofme1 wrote:and the popularity of Corbyn has been mirrored to some extent in the US remember

Sanders has all the same issues Corbyn has - lack of charisma, policies outside mainstream, been around for years but limited power etc etc and he would have been the democratic nominee if it was not for the archaic election rules and also that Clinton, for her many faults, is a phenomenally strong candidate

There is no equivalent to Clinton in the UK Labour Party

There are plenty in the UKLP who voted for Invasions and Bombings, and who suck up to the likes of Goldman Sachs and the Private 'Health' Industry .

It's just that none of them are on the ticket .

Quote lifted from a VERY nose pegged future voter for HRC

"I don’t like that she voted for the Iraq War. I don’t like that she said in 2008 that we would bomb Iran back to the Stone Age before we’d let them have nuclear weapons. I don’t like that she cackled, “We came, we saw, he died” when Muammar Qaddafi was killed. I don’t like that she doesn’t understand why people would think that her receiving $265,000 from Goldman Sachs to speak to them for an hour might indicate that she would put the interests of those bankers above the interests of people like me. It enrages me that she seems to think the suggestion of it is absurd."

In our last election I'd have voted for Hollande over Sarkozy, with very little hope indeed that he'd be much better, but at least he'd be less likely to cut assistance to the poor and disabled, and inflame the social condition of the 'inner cities' . etcetc !

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 10:49 am

JonnyT1234 wrote:In her prime, I would say Margaret Beckett. But our media is much too cruel for her to have stood any chance merely because of her looks.

I think she did a pretty good job (and I'm no great fan of hers) in the aftermath of John Smith's death, and seemed not to get much, if any, credit for her efforts.

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 10:49 am

Didn't anybody tell you? Oh well, far too late now, ephe. You were supposed to save your used loo rolls over the years to build a giant telescope. No wonder you've no idea where you're headed.

A belated edit to remove a stray 'w'.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 10:50 am

frog222 wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:and the popularity of Corbyn has been mirrored to some extent in the US remember

Sanders has all the same issues Corbyn has - lack of charisma, policies outside mainstream, been around for years but limited power etc etc and he would have been the democratic nominee if it was not for the archaic election rules and also that Clinton, for her many faults, is a phenomenally strong candidate

There is no equivalent to Clinton in the UK Labour Party
There are plenty in the UKLP who voted for Invasions and Bombings, and who suck up to the likes of Goldman Sachs and the Private 'Health' Industry .

It's just that none of them are on the ticket .

Quote lifted from a VERY nose pegged future voter for HRC

"I don’t like that she voted for the Iraq War. I don’t like that she said in 2008 that we would bomb Iran back to the Stone Age before we’d let them have nuclear weapons. I don’t like that she cackled, “We came, we saw, he died” when Muammar Qaddafi was killed. I don’t like that she doesn’t understand why people would think that her receiving $265,000 from Goldman Sachs to speak to them for an hour might indicate that she would put the interests of those bankers above the interests of people like me. It enrages me that she seems to think the suggestion of it is absurd."
In our last election I'd have voted for Hollande over Sarkozy, with very little hope indeed that he'd be much better, but at least he'd be less likely to cut assistance to the poor and disabled, and inflame the social condition of the 'inner cities' . etcetc !

She is a formidable politician appealing to a different electorate where those vile and ridiculous things she said do not matter so much - I think that is saying more about US politics though

However, in a face to face with Sanders with a more sensible system for the selection I think she would have struggled

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 10:50 am

PorFavor wrote:
JonnyT1234 wrote:In her prime, I would say Margaret Beckett. But our media is much too cruel for her to have stood any chance merely because of her looks.
I think she did a pretty good job (and I'm no great fan of hers) in the aftermath of John Smith's death, and seemed not to get much, if any, credit for her efforts.

Concur

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 10:51 am

Off out now to tour the vineyards

30C today again.....and Swiss national Day Monday so a bank holiday as well

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 10:51 am

Bumboils. That edit (above) was to get rid of loads of unwanted spaces.

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 11:07 am

JonnyT1234 wrote:In her prime, I would say Margaret Beckett. But our media is much too cruel for her to have stood any chance merely because of her looks.

Sad but true.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 11:07 am

howsillyofme1 wrote:
PorFavor wrote:
JonnyT1234 wrote:In her prime, I would say Margaret Beckett. But our media is much too cruel for her to have stood any chance merely because of her looks.
I think she did a pretty good job (and I'm no great fan of hers) in the aftermath of John Smith's death, and seemed not to get much, if any, credit for her efforts.

Concur

Actually I was being a bit unintentionally harsh there. Beckett was a much better politician than H. Clinton will ever be.

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 11:23 am

I've just looked at https://www.gov.uk/government/publications again and still they keep coming. May be back later if I find something worth reporting.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 11:26 am

Tbh, Beckett was the Yvette Cooper of her day. Competent but not exactly inspiring.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 11:33 am

South Yorkshire town in tap water alert over high bacteria levels

Thousands of people in Thorne and village of Moorends, near Doncaster, told not to use tap water while utility firm investigates (Guardian)

Does this affect anyone here?

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... d-miliband

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 11:35 am

utopiandreams wrote:I've just looked at https://www.gov.uk/government/publications again and still they keep coming. May be back later if I find something worth reporting.

DfE's monthly list of academies and sponsors has now missed two months - last update was in May.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... nt#history" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Deliberate, DfE in a bit of chaos, being updated to include Free Schools? Nno idea.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 11:38 am

I think this "threat" is too transparently blackmailing to have that much effect, though.

And nobody has convincingly described how this supposed "semi split" would actually work.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 11:39 am

PorFavor wrote:
South Yorkshire town in tap water alert over high bacteria levels

Thousands of people in Thorne and village of Moorends, near Doncaster, told not to use tap water while utility firm investigates (Guardian)
Does this affect anyone here?

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... d-miliband

I'm in Stoke, I don't think it extends to us, however, the taste of our tap water has markedly changed over the last couple of days. The tap water tastes of chemicals.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 11:39 am

Good-morning, everyone.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 11:40 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Tbh, Beckett was the Yvette Cooper of her day. Competent but not exactly inspiring.

Hence the parallel with Clinton. Maybe just me but I find Clinton distinctly uninspiring. She may be good at politics but she doesn't have anything that makes me sit up and listen.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 11:41 am

Turkey president Erdoğan to drop cases of insult in coup aftermath

President makes gesture in fiery speech, telling west to ‘mind your own business’ in wake of concerns about crackdown after failed coup

“For one time only, I will be forgiving and withdrawing all cases against the many disrespects and insults that have been levelled against me,” he said.

Ah. What a nice chap he is. Just this once, mind.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/ ... esident-in

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 11:45 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:I think this "threat" is too transparently blackmailing to have that much effect, though.

And nobody has convincingly described how this supposed "semi split" would actually work.

The reverse psychology of it is that it'll make some even more determined to vote for Corbyn, "you mean you 'moderates' will actually bugger off if he wins? Good. Let's make 100% sure he wins because we can't wait to see the back of you...'

PS. I wonder how people like Burnham find that moderate label that the right of the party have sequestered for themselves? By using it, it automatically makes anyone not in their group an extremist. And Burnham etc are not extremist. It's such a disgusting misappropriation of the term that it really offends me every time I see it used for them.

Maeght · Post by **Maeght** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 11:46 am

Sinon Wren-Lewis

Rebuilding a mass social democratic party?

https://mainlymacro.blogspot.co.uk/2016 ... ainlyMacro+(mainly+macro" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)