Monday, 1st August 2016

[AnatolyKasparov]

I would like to hear Smith call out the likes of McTernan, for sure.

[ohsocynical]

@Ephie

In another controversy on Sunday, Smith’s campaign was forced to apologise for sending automated text messages to Labour members and supporters that arrived in the middle of the night by mistake, infuriating many recipients.

A campaign spokesman said: “There was a technical glitch with the system used for sending out messages, which meant some texts were delivered after the intended 8pm cut-off. We apologise for any inconvenience this may have caused.”

http://www.theguardian.com/.../economic-advisers-jeremy.." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

[ohsocynical]

I'll be very surprised if there's a definitive answer so soon.

History belongs to the victors

The histoire evenementielle is the preserve of journalists and diarists not historians. In the longue duree it all comes out in the wash.

A single pebble cannot change the course of a river, but many pebbles built up together can dam the bloody thing, but you have got to start with the first pebble.

I reckon there'll be a few pebbles in place within the year. Should give us a bit of an idea how wide the river is.

[ohsocynical]

In the interests of fairness

Despite his protestations, Owen Jones has taken sides.
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[55DegreesNorth]

Afternoon folks,
Sitting in the very hot sun here with a cold beer, having spent the day gardening for the in laws. Regarding the leadership, I'm continually reminded of Benn, ( the real one we used to get, not the plastic knock-offs we have to put up with now). Personalities aren't what matters, it's the ishoos. The ishoos.
I think Corbyn has got the ishoos nailed, and has been consistent for decades. He might not be photogenic or media savvy but hey, it's not a presidential system. The rest of the shadow cabinet have/should have a range of skills to utilise, if they genuinely supported his position.
Smith put forward a platform I could support, but I'm not sure he could. If he had any views over the last few years, I'm not aware of them. Probably failure to pay attention on my part, but I'm not convinced.
Back to gardening - I'm getting tomatoes beginning to ripen already. If you haven't tried gardening in the Toon, you won't understand.

HOT SUN ? It's cold, grey and trying to rain here. I've got a jumper and a cardigan on.

To be fair, what passes for hot sun up here is probably a bit different to what they think in the Deep South. They were practically passing out on Tynemouth beach last week, when the temperature hit 20C.

[Rebecca]

Afternoon folks,
Sitting in the very hot sun here with a cold beer, having spent the day gardening for the in laws. Regarding the leadership, I'm continually reminded of Benn, ( the real one we used to get, not the plastic knock-offs we have to put up with now). Personalities aren't what matters, it's the ishoos. The ishoos.
I think Corbyn has got the ishoos nailed, and has been consistent for decades. He might not be photogenic or media savvy but hey, it's not a presidential system. The rest of the shadow cabinet have/should have a range of skills to utilise, if they genuinely supported his position.
Smith put forward a platform I could support, but I'm not sure he could. If he had any views over the last few years, I'm not aware of them. Probably failure to pay attention on my part, but I'm not convinced.
Back to gardening - I'm getting tomatoes beginning to ripen already. If you haven't tried gardening in the Toon, you won't understand.

HOT SUN ? It's cold, grey and trying to rain here. I've got a jumper and a cardigan on.

To be fair, what passes for hot sun up here is probably a bit different to what they think in the Deep South. They were practically passing out on Tynemouth beach last week, when the temperature hit 20C.

I moved to Sunderland from Boroughbridge in 2006.
It was a hot summer,in n yorks.Every time the temperature rose in Sunderland we were engulfed in a cold,grey mist.
My tomatoes went black and shrivelled up,revolting.

[ohsocynical]

HOT SUN ? It's cold, grey and trying to rain here. I've got a jumper and a cardigan on.

To be fair, what passes for hot sun up here is probably a bit different to what they think in the Deep South. They were practically passing out on Tynemouth beach last week, when the temperature hit 20C.

I moved to Sunderland from Boroughbridge in 2006.
It was a hot summer,in n yorks.Every time the temperature rose in Sunderland we were engulfed in a cold,grey mist.
My tomatoes went black and shrivelled up,revolting.

Its 66F in my living room at the moment.

[yahyah]

But what solutions does he propose?

In the absence of that, it comes across somewhat as hand wringing.

Sometimes hand wringing is all you can do. The very fact that he has been open about what he thinks is invaluable.
It seems to have had an impact on Rob S, judging by his comment.
It makes me feel less alone in my concerns about the way things are going. Can't be the only one.

And at least Jones is going through the stages of grief, he's moving away from denial.
Maybe something will come forth from the gap left behind when 'He's our only hope' is let go of.
Suspect some who voted for Corbyn last year have been waiting for a person who can't be derided as a right winger to talk about the real concerns. There might even be shy Smith voters, keeping their views to themselves because of the flak.

The problem, as pointed out by the open letter to Owen Jones linked earlier, and by Tem, is that the civil war has been boiled down to a choice between Owen Smith and Jeremy Corbyn. That means if you're voting for Owen Smith, you're not just voting for Owen Smith as leader - you're voting to put the members back in their box, to accept that the PLP holds the whip hand, and leaving the situation open for future leaders to suffer death by a thousand media briefings. The only way to vote against those things is to vote for Corbyn (and the leftwing slate on the NEC), accepting the fact that he lacks the skills and the support to do the job we actually require of a leader. It's a Kobayashi Maru with a side order of Catch 22 and words cannot express my fury at the idiots in the PLP for inflicting this on us.

Those are views held by people. Other people have different views.
If you remember I did complain about the mess that has been hoisted on us, the timing and undesirable outcome of the attempt to unseat Corbyn.
It's like the EU referendum, lots of views and ideas for the future had to be squashed into one of two voting choices.
Neither side is blameless, in my view. But we are where we are, and have to make the best of it.

The only way, the only hope, words like that only apply if that is your view.
How you see it depends on where you sit.

If members vote for Owen Smith, despite the attacks on him, and the obvious weaknesses he has as a candidate, they are in a sense voting to be put back in the box, but that's democracy for you.

And, I don't wish to have a go at Tem, no desire to revisit old stuff there, but it does worry me how much Greens and people who will not actually join the Labour party, or even vote for them, want to shape the party.

[Rebecca]

Mrs OhSo,it's 21degrees in mine.
This is a warm little house though.
In the winter the sitting room didn't drop below 14 degrees on the coldest night,and that's with a hole where the cat flap used to be.
It was 12 degrees outside this morning at six,but 22 in the house.

[yahyah]

Sorry, have been unable to express myself clearly as usual.

What I meant is Rob, why assume that everyone thinks Chaloner & Tem are right just because you might agree with their argument ?

[fedup59]

Afternoon all

For me the abortive coup made the question of what I want, feel entitled to expect, of the Labour party crystal clear. I expect a party in which all members are assumed to have an equal say in both its leadership and general direction.

At times in the past this has left me feeling distinctly irritated but when my preferred direction has not been that chosen I've accepted it as a democratic choice.

My choice for leader is now determined by what I feel is really on offer, a party of equals or a party where some are more equal than others. The Animal Farm approach is not my favoured process. For me that means it has to be Corbyn (luckily I approve of a lot of the choices he has already made).

[ohsocynical]

Mrs OhSo,it's 21degrees in mine.
This is a warm little house though.
In the winter the sitting room didn't drop below 14 degrees on the coldest night,and that's with a hole where the cat flap used to be.
It was 12 degrees outside this morning at six,but 22 in the house.

I'm hoping where we're going will be warmer. This place is so draughty. No insulation on the wooden cladded walls...And only joined onto a neighbour via one wall. Can't wait to move.

[Rebecca]

Sometimes hand wringing is all you can do. The very fact that he has been open about what he thinks is invaluable.
It seems to have had an impact on Rob S, judging by his comment.
It makes me feel less alone in my concerns about the way things are going. Can't be the only one.

And at least Jones is going through the stages of grief, he's moving away from denial.
Maybe something will come forth from the gap left behind when 'He's our only hope' is let go of.
Suspect some who voted for Corbyn last year have been waiting for a person who can't be derided as a right winger to talk about the real concerns. There might even be shy Smith voters, keeping their views to themselves because of the flak.

The problem, as pointed out by the open letter to Owen Jones linked earlier, and by Tem, is that the civil war has been boiled down to a choice between Owen Smith and Jeremy Corbyn. That means if you're voting for Owen Smith, you're not just voting for Owen Smith as leader - you're voting to put the members back in their box, to accept that the PLP holds the whip hand, and leaving the situation open for future leaders to suffer death by a thousand media briefings. The only way to vote against those things is to vote for Corbyn (and the leftwing slate on the NEC), accepting the fact that he lacks the skills and the support to do the job we actually require of a leader. It's a Kobayashi Maru with a side order of Catch 22 and words cannot express my fury at the idiots in the PLP for inflicting this on us.

Those are views held by people. Other people have different views.
If you remember I did complain about the mess that has been hoisted on us, the timing and undesirable outcome of the attempt to unseat Corbyn.
It's like the EU referendum, lots of views and ideas for the future had to be squashed into one of two voting choices.
Neither side is blameless, in my view. But we are where we are, and have to make the best of it.

The only way, the only hope, words like that only apply if that is your view.
How you see it depends on where you sit.

If members vote for Owen Smith, despite the attacks on him, and the obvious weaknesses he has as a candidate, they are in a sense voting to be put back in the box, but that's democracy for you.

And, I don't wish to have a go at Tem, no desire to revisit old stuff there, but it does worry me how much Greens and people who will not actually join the Labour party, or even vote for them, want to shape the party.

But YahYah,you have resigned from the party rather than vote in the leadership election,but from what I've been reading from you recently you are still commenting in an anti Corbyn manner.
And no,I am not in denial btw,and am not planning on entering any other steps in the grieving process,but thanks for your concern.

[Rebecca]

Mrs OhSo,it's 21degrees in mine.
This is a warm little house though.
In the winter the sitting room didn't drop below 14 degrees on the coldest night,and that's with a hole where the cat flap used to be.
It was 12 degrees outside this morning at six,but 22 in the house.

I'm hoping where we're going will be warmer. This place is so draughty. No insulation on the wooden cladded walls...And only joined onto a neighbour via one wall. Can't wait to move.

How near to moving are you?
P.s my downstairs bathroom is icy ,even when it was 30 degrees!

[ohsocynical]

Tom London
‏@TomLondon6

Corbyn is trying to do something incredibly difficult - to challenge the rich & powerful
No one should expect it to be quick or easy

[yahyah]

Owen Smith 2016 ‏@owensmith2016 3h3 hours ago
Owen was in Yorkshire a few days ago where he announced £50bn of funding for the North #YorkshireDay #Owen2016

Wayne Gardner
‏@14wayne
@owensmith2016 @lynbrownmp How can you `announce' funding if you are not a government minister?

Can you? I honestly don't know how it works at this level.

He promised it, not announced that it was happening.

This is all getting so silly isn't it ?
No politician can actually put forward their ideas, because they aren't a government minister.
There goes the Labour, Green, Plaid manifestos then. Not allowed to say you'll provide a fund, or channel money into something unless you are in government ?

I know he isn't flavour of the month around these parts, but it might be worth actually reading what he said...not someone paraphrasing and repeating to attack him. Just a thought, probably not worth suggesting as minds seem closed on Smith.

''The Labour MP from Pontypridd...proposes a major investment scheme to create jobs infrastructure and
improve infrastructure' He calls it a plan. No doubt someone on Twitter will take issue with that too.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/i- ... al-8435860" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/ow ... on-8500587" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It is so obvious he is presenting his manifesto for leadership, and beyond to a Labour election win I'm not sure what Wayne on Twitter is moithering about, other than trying to make a dig.

[Rebecca]

Afternoon all

For me the abortive coup made the question of what I want, feel entitled to expect, of the Labour party crystal clear. I expect a party in which all members are assumed to have an equal say in both its leadership and general direction.

At times in the past this has left me feeling distinctly irritated but when my preferred direction has not been that chosen I've accepted it as a democratic choice.

My choice for leader is now determined by what I feel is really on offer, a party of equals or a party where some are more equal than others. The Animal Farm approach is not my favoured process. For me that means it has to be Corbyn (luckily I approve of a lot of the choices he has already made).

The coup sickened me,especially after a few days when Eagle delayed her leadership bid because they thought that Corbyn was looking dreadful.So hoping that they had made his life such a living hell he would resign.
How could anyone vote for people who can act so vindictively?
Owen Smith is part of it all,and for all his campaign promises,wasn't he lobbying for Pfizer when they donated a large sum to Progress?
Do not like him or trust him,speaking in a non cultist manner.

[citizenJA]

Tom London
‏@TomLondon6

Corbyn is trying to do something incredibly difficult - to challenge the rich & powerful
No one should expect it to be quick or easy

Tory government gonna love that

[yahyah]

The problem, as pointed out by the open letter to Owen Jones linked earlier, and by Tem, is that the civil war has been boiled down to a choice between Owen Smith and Jeremy Corbyn. That means if you're voting for Owen Smith, you're not just voting for Owen Smith as leader - you're voting to put the members back in their box, to accept that the PLP holds the whip hand, and leaving the situation open for future leaders to suffer death by a thousand media briefings. The only way to vote against those things is to vote for Corbyn (and the leftwing slate on the NEC), accepting the fact that he lacks the skills and the support to do the job we actually require of a leader. It's a Kobayashi Maru with a side order of Catch 22 and words cannot express my fury at the idiots in the PLP for inflicting this on us.

Those are views held by people. Other people have different views.
If you remember I did complain about the mess that has been hoisted on us, the timing and undesirable outcome of the attempt to unseat Corbyn.
It's like the EU referendum, lots of views and ideas for the future had to be squashed into one of two voting choices.
Neither side is blameless, in my view. But we are where we are, and have to make the best of it.

The only way, the only hope, words like that only apply if that is your view.
How you see it depends on where you sit.

If members vote for Owen Smith, despite the attacks on him, and the obvious weaknesses he has as a candidate, they are in a sense voting to be put back in the box, but that's democracy for you.

And, I don't wish to have a go at Tem, no desire to revisit old stuff there, but it does worry me how much Greens and people who will not actually join the Labour party, or even vote for them, want to shape the party.

But YahYah,you have resigned from the party rather than vote in the leadership election,but from what I've been reading from you recently you are still commenting in an anti Corbyn manner.
And no,I am not in denial btw,and am not planning on entering any other steps in the grieving process,but thanks for your concern.

As luck would have it young cattle and the weather intervened.
The field was too muddy, and the cattle too frisky too risk walking through to the post box in the village.
Was going to post it when going to Aber last week but thought sod it, why should I walk away just because both factions are as bad as each other ?

Am glad I've held on, my husband suggested we cancelled the party membership direct debit at the bank but we forgot to phone and do it, so the membership is still valid.

I am not posting in an anti-Corbyn manner. I am suggesting his leadership is not free from major problems ? See the difference ?

Why should Smith be smeared, derided and sworn about ? How does that help the Labour party or people who need the Tories out of governement ?
Why is that so hard for some to understand ? It is most puzzling.

If you aren't a fulsome supporter, despite voting for him and wanting him to succeed, & after watching his performance for nearly a year, why does that make you anti-Corbyn ?

[ohsocynical]

We're top of the list and unless someone below us has to start using a wheelchair, or the council needs to find accommodation for someone who has bad health, the next ground floor flat is ours. Unfortunately there is a high turnover, so it shouldn't be too long now.
I've nearly emptied the garage. We go to a charity shop or the tip a couple of times a week so I don't have too much heavy lifting and sorting to do when we do get it. I have to spread my workload otherwise I'm seized up for days. I've just given my garden fork and spade to a neighbour. Excess paint, tools and bedding have gone. Wardrobe thinned out. Mr Ohso's excess musical equipment is more or less gone.
I still have the buyer lined up for this place. I've had an estate agent in so that I have a realistic idea of how much I need to drop below the going price because of the repairs that need doing. My buyer was a bit picky when I saw him the other night, but I reminded him I only offered him first refusal, not a stupid price. Really, now, it's just a case of waiting.

[yahyah]

In the interests of fairness

Despite his protestations, Owen Jones has taken sides.
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I thought you'd given up on opinion pieces.
Tbh, most of them fall into the 'well she would say that' category.

Saw Jones called a sellout last week because he dares think that Clinton is a better bet for the US, and the world, than Trump. It's as if the tea party mentality is on the move.

[ohsocynical]

In the interests of fairness

Despite his protestations, Owen Jones has taken sides.
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I thought you'd given up on opinion pieces.
Tbh, most of them fall into the 'well she would say that' category.

Saw Jones called a sellout last week because he dares think that Clinton is a better bet for the US, and the world, than Trump. It's as if the tea party mentality is on the move.

You are being very rude.

[Maeght]

Mrs OhSo,it's 21degrees in mine.
This is a warm little house though.
In the winter the sitting room didn't drop below 14 degrees on the coldest night,and that's with a hole where the cat flap used to be.
It was 12 degrees outside this morning at six,but 22 in the house.

I'm hoping where we're going will be warmer. This place is so draughty. No insulation on the wooden cladded walls...And only joined onto a neighbour via one wall. Can't wait to move.

What will happen to your broadband when you move? You've just had it updated I think?

[yahyah]

In the interests of fairness

Despite his protestations, Owen Jones has taken sides.
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I thought you'd given up on opinion pieces.
Tbh, most of them fall into the 'well she would say that' category.

Saw Jones called a sellout last week because he dares think that Clinton is a better bet for the US, and the world, than Trump. It's as if the tea party mentality is on the move.

You are being very rude.

Seriously, you find that rude. You posted earlier you didn't pay any attention to opinion pieces but followed your gut.

And don't you normally call it being cantankerous , something to be proud of ?

Opinion pieces from interested parties are usually what they would say that'. When they don't say it, as Jones has tried to do, they get attacked.

If you find that rude, I am genuinely sorry. But you yourself have posted things that have not been 'polite'.

[ohsocynical]

Paul Quigley ‏@quigleyp 3m3 minutes ago

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[fedup59]

Hi yahyah

I agree with you that Smith is entitled to fair representation, and his proposals to be listened to and critiqued as should Corbyn's.

I think though that my starting point, the abortive coup, has flavoured what came next because, as far as I'm aware, Smith never distanced himself from it. So, while I accept that in making a choice I have to consider who might be likely to be able to lead Labour to power (which I am taking into consideration I think)there's an earlier question about what that Labour party is and how it defines its role as a membership organisation. I think I understand where Corbyn stands on that. I don't know, apart from my assumptions, where Smith might.

But I will accept the democratic choice that is made in September, whether it's my one or not.

[ephemerid]

@Ephie

In another controversy on Sunday, Smith’s campaign was forced to apologise for sending automated text messages to Labour members and supporters that arrived in the middle of the night by mistake, infuriating many recipients.

A campaign spokesman said: “There was a technical glitch with the system used for sending out messages, which meant some texts were delivered after the intended 8pm cut-off. We apologise for any inconvenience this may have caused.”

http://www.theguardian.com/.../economic-advisers-jeremy.." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

Thank you, Ohso.

I'm sure they are very apologetic about the inconvenience it DID cause.

I hope they are very apologetic if my complaint to the ICO results in a ticking-off - I have not given my mobile number to any leadership campaign and I remain mightily miffed that it has been accessed without my consent.

[yahyah]

Hi yahyah

I agree with you that Smith is entitled to fair representation, and his proposals to be listened to and critiqued as should Corbyn's.

I think though that my starting point, the abortive coup, has flavoured what came next because, as far as I'm aware, Smith never distanced himself from it. So, while I accept that in making a choice I have to consider who might be likely to be able to lead Labour to power (which I am taking into consideration I think)there's an earlier question about what that Labour party is and how it defines its role as a membership organisation. I think I understand where Corbyn stands on that. I don't know, apart from my assumptions, where Smith might.

But I will accept the democratic choice that is made in September, whether it's my one or not.

Hi Fedup.

Thanks for your patient, calm and reasoned reply. I will take a leaf from your book and try and emulate you in future !

Your last sentence is like soothing balm. Hopefully others can feel it too.
It's what I've been banging on about, and getting frustrated about. The idea that the civil war, as someone earlier called it, that breaks out here and in the wider party will continue, whoever wins, is too awful to contemplate.

You are right about Smith not distancing himself from the mess that Eagle put forward.
It counts as a definite point against him. The way the PLP have made sure we only have two candidates [could there really have been no one else who wanted to stand ?] to make it a 'get Corbyn' election leaves a very sour taste.

Maybe the issues about the membership means more for some, can understand the concerns.
But the way it has become a fight doesn't seem likely to lead to anything constructive in the long term.

The election is like the EU referendum, forcing outcomes that are not ideal.
My fear of voting for Corbyn again was that he/his close supporters would see it as a vote that meant there were no issues that needed dealing with.

The way I've been treated, called anti-Corbyn, because I've expressed that, or queried accuracy about, and suggested less hate for, Smith is very hard to understand.
It does seem as if swallowing the Kool Aid, smiling and cheering about Corbyn is the only acceptable stance for some.

It seems odd to be derided for wanting Labour to win elections, or to want a leader who can have the right policies, be efficient in party management and appeal to the wider electorate as well as performing to packed houses of loyal supporters. If winning general elections isn't important why does Labour ask for donations to run campaigns ? Why bother ?

Shame they can't have a job share. Smith doing more of what he'd be good at, someone who worked with him said he had very high standards, and Corbyn doing what he's good at.

[ephemerid]

yahyah - I agree with you that we shouldn't be sniping at Smith.

Nor should we be sniping at Corbyn, each other, Uncle Tom Cobley and all......but I think we should snipe at McTernan because he's a plonker.

I mainly agree with Robert and Fedup, in that the PLP have behaved disgracefully (as many of them did with Ed and Brown before him) and I feel that Labour's troubles go far deeper than this leadership contest. That's why it's a party I can't support.

I said here the other day that I think Smith is a brave man to take this on. If he is serious about the left-ish policies he's proposing, he won't get the support he needs any more than Ed did and Corbyn has recently. If he isn't - and only time will tell - he's going to have other problems.

I'm glad I don't have a vote. My heart says I'd vote Corbyn; my head says both of them sound good; on balance, it'd be Corbyn if only because he has never really had a chance to get going as he's been fending off what has been a constant attack on his leadership.

I don't know what the answer is - but I know what it isn't. The way this issue has divided people is like the EU referendum all over again. It's doing the party no good, it's doing the respective factions no good, it's doing individuals no good, and worst of all it is not doing any good at all for the country which is crying out for change and robust opposition to the Tories.

[gilsey]

I am not posting in an anti-Corbyn manner. I am suggesting his leadership is not free from major problems ?

I would suggest that there is no-one here who thinks his leadership is free from major problems.

The alternative is not free from major problems either.

The whole thing is an effing minefield, please try not to fall out about it.

[yahyah]

It would help to try and distance the emotion from the actual politics. Not easy though.

Read a policy that Smith has proposed and think 'do I like the sound of that', 'will it work', 'does/would Corbyn agree with that', even 'would voters like that ?'.
If your mind is full of 'he's a xxxx' you won't be thinking of what might be best for the party and the country.

Is seeing what's happening as some sort of apocalyptic event where the final battle for the soul of the Labour party must be fought for until the death really helpful ?

Watch out for siren voices that would not be upset to see Labour laid low, but whisper encouragement to confrontation between the factions in the guise of good advice. There is mischief making going on, be sure of that.

[ohsocynical]

@Ephie

Pauline Lane ‏@Antonineone1 16m16 minutes ago

Understand 447441900938 is Sound Advertising Ltd.
If this is true, how did they get my mobile telephone number...?Pauline Lane added,

[AnatolyKasparov]

I am not posting in an anti-Corbyn manner. I am suggesting his leadership is not free from major problems ?

I would suggest that there is no-one here who thinks his leadership is free from major problems.

The alternative is not free from major problems either.

The whole thing is an effing minefield, please try not to fall out about it.

Amen to all that.

Whilst I am "out" as a very likely Smith voter, I am wondering if the best - or least worst - result for the party right now is that Corbyn is re-elected but not overwhelmingly so (say by 60-40 or thereabouts) Hopefully, it would mean he had to at at least try to take some steps to reach out to the less incorrigible of his opponents. Meanwhile, Smith would have polled sufficiently well to have made those in the party who do not support JC believe that all is not lost - and thus head off any possible split (or at the very least, limit it to the absolute diehards)

It would also make it pretty clear there was going to be a new leader in time for a 2020 GE.

In the meantime, it would be nice if OS made clear that *he* is not interested in a split in any circumstances. And that he might be willing to serve under Jez again (even only with certain conditions, if necessary) And that wholly malign individuals like McTernan will be cast into the outer darkness forever

[PorFavor]

Those are views held by people. Other people have different views.
If you remember I did complain about the mess that has been hoisted on us, the timing and undesirable outcome of the attempt to unseat Corbyn.
It's like the EU referendum, lots of views and ideas for the future had to be squashed into one of two voting choices.
Neither side is blameless, in my view. But we are where we are, and have to make the best of it.

The only way, the only hope, words like that only apply if that is your view.
How you see it depends on where you sit.

If members vote for Owen Smith, despite the attacks on him, and the obvious weaknesses he has as a candidate, they are in a sense voting to be put back in the box, but that's democracy for you.

And, I don't wish to have a go at Tem, no desire to revisit old stuff there, but it does worry me how much Greens and people who will not actually join the Labour party, or even vote for them, want to shape the party.

But YahYah,you have resigned from the party rather than vote in the leadership election,but from what I've been reading from you recently you are still commenting in an anti Corbyn manner.
And no,I am not in denial btw,and am not planning on entering any other steps in the grieving process,but thanks for your concern.

As luck would have it young cattle and the weather intervened.
The field was too muddy, and the cattle too frisky too risk walking through to the post box in the village.
Was going to post it when going to Aber last week but thought sod it, why should I walk away just because both factions are as bad as each other ?

Am glad I've held on, my husband suggested we cancelled the party membership direct debit at the bank but we forgot to phone and do it, so the membership is still valid.

I am not posting in an anti-Corbyn manner. I am suggesting his leadership is not free from major problems ? See the difference ?

Why should Smith be smeared, derided and sworn about ? How does that help the Labour party or people who need the Tories out of governement ?
Why is that so hard for some to understand ? It is most puzzling.

If you aren't a fulsome supporter, despite voting for him and wanting him to succeed, & after watching his performance for nearly a year, why does that make you anti-Corbyn ?

So - you're not an "exitist", after all - or even a "re-entryist"!

[yahyah]

Meanwhile, anyone who relies on savings income to top up their earnings/pension will be feeling sick:

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2016/ ... -cut-rates" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[SpinningHugo]

And that wholly malign individuals like McTernan will be cast into the outer darkness forever

Ah yes, the Blairites under the bed. They're to blame.

The idea that someone like Umunna will ever again lead the Labour party, or that they represent 'dark' forces who will seize power (how?) is inexplicable.

The future looks something like this.

Corbyn wins. This is overwhelmingly more likely as Labour is not the same party as it was in 2015, let alone 2010. He won't quit. The over-optimistic view that he would has been shown to be wrong. if he won't go when 81% of the PLP say they have no confidence in him, he never will. A couple (two) MPs move back into the shadow cabinet because they want their to be an opposition in the areas of their expertise. Moves are started towards deselections. In the next year the economy will tank, making Labour more popular, giving his supporters something to hold on to. Another attempt is made to defeat him next year. that is beaten again. MPs who will lose their seats, either through being deselected or through electoral defeat convince a majority to form a new PLP block with their own leader who take over the official opposition. Deselections accelerate. By 2020 Labour has been transformed, encompassing as it now does all the people who were in Socialist Alliance, Respect, No2EU, TUSC, Left List and Left Unity, and a new cohort of enthused metropolitan believers.. Labour is then crushed in the election, effectively finished as a party that will ever be in government.

Or. Smith wins. the left of the party are irreconcilable, as Corbyn "wasn't given a chance". The party holds together, and adopts the same strategy with a bit more left rhetoric that it had from 2010-2015 under Miliband. Trying the same thing again results in much the same result, but after boundary changes and the damage of the Corbyn years, worse. The left claims that the only problem with the Corbyn years was that Corbyn wasn't presentable enough, and Lewis is elected leader. The first scenario above is then played out.

Something might turn up of course. The recession we are about to have may turn into a full blown depression, and then all bets are off. Events?

But I can't see Labour re-tracing the path back to power it took in the 80s (ie Smith is not Kinnock). The Umunnas don't belong in Labour any more than I do.

The UK needs a social democratic party in the European tradition, that can win. It needs that more than ever. Labour isn't going to be that for the foreseeable future, and its existence prevents another from emerging. There is no good scenario.

That is the Corbyn supporter's best argument. You may as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb. If you're going to lose, lose for something you believe in.

[yahyah]

Yes, I'm wrong, as usual. Must keep up with the programme.
Will try harder.

[ohsocynical]

CoyXEGrXYAAvy-j.jpg (41.34 KiB) Viewed 11148 times

Debbie Abrahams ‏@Debbie_abrahams 1h1 hour ago

The govt' has scrapped #maintenancegrants today & replaced w/ student loans, plunging students into further debt.

[Rebecca]

Yes, I'm wrong, as usual. Must keep up with the programme.
Will try harder.

Good lord.

[citizenJA]

CoyXEGrXYAAvy-j.jpg

Debbie Abrahams ‏@Debbie_abrahams 1h1 hour ago

The govt' has scrapped #maintenancegrants today & replaced w/ student loans, plunging students into further debt.

How much time does Corbyn need to create a functional Labour government?

[Tizme1]

Greetings all,

@yahyah I'm not sure Greens in general want to shape the Labour party as such. Sure we talk about the situation in the Labour party at the moment. Just as we talk about what's going on in other political parties. I haven't commented on the subject much on here for various reasons. One of those is because I'm a Green but another major factor is I can't see any obvious solution either. Though as I mentioned the other day, it is important to us Greens because naturally we want to see a strong official opposition party.

With regards Tem, I am only surmising but two possible reasons for his commenting are 1) doing so wearing his 'Historian' hat, and 2) he used to be a Labour party member so in a way possibly feels a greater affinity than I might. I have voted Labour in the past on a number of occasions [you'd be surprised how recently], but I was never a Labour party member.

[Rebecca]

CoyXEGrXYAAvy-j.jpg

Debbie Abrahams ‏@Debbie_abrahams 1h1 hour ago

The govt' has scrapped #maintenancegrants today & replaced w/ student loans, plunging students into further debt.

How much time does Corbyn need to create a functional Labour government?

How much time does the PLP need to remember that they are supposed to be fighting the Tories and not their democratically elected leader?

[refitman]

But YahYah,you have resigned from the party rather than vote in the leadership election,but from what I've been reading from you recently you are still commenting in an anti Corbyn manner.
And no,I am not in denial btw,and am not planning on entering any other steps in the grieving process,but thanks for your concern.

As luck would have it young cattle and the weather intervened.
The field was too muddy, and the cattle too frisky too risk walking through to the post box in the village.
Was going to post it when going to Aber last week but thought sod it, why should I walk away just because both factions are as bad as each other ?

Am glad I've held on, my husband suggested we cancelled the party membership direct debit at the bank but we forgot to phone and do it, so the membership is still valid.

I am not posting in an anti-Corbyn manner. I am suggesting his leadership is not free from major problems ? See the difference ?

Why should Smith be smeared, derided and sworn about ? How does that help the Labour party or people who need the Tories out of governement ?
Why is that so hard for some to understand ? It is most puzzling.

If you aren't a fulsome supporter, despite voting for him and wanting him to succeed, & after watching his performance for nearly a year, why does that make you anti-Corbyn ?

I would say there is a difference between being "anti-Corbyn" and not being "pro-Corbyn". Let's try not to fall into the GW Bush world of "if you're not with us you're against us".

[Tizme1]

@Sputnikkers thanks for your reply on Friday night. I did read it over the weekend but haven't had the chance to respond. I wasn't at all offended btw, just wanted to clarify exactly what you meant. To the best of my knowledge, Caroline's involvement [such as it is], came much later. For the main part, local Green party groups haven't really got involved. Partly because of many of the people you describe and the fact there never seems to be a desire to put forward realistic solutions.

Back in 2010 the Coalition of Resistance was started and initially I was involved in that. But again it was many of the same people and so I decided to become more involved in local stuff. Trying to do what I could to positively help people rather than going on demonstrations all the time with no hope of changing anything and seemingly no realistic ideas to put forward. I'm not against demonstrations, but I do also feel there has to be an attempt where possible to put forward alternatives.

[tinyclanger2]

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a heroine. and topical too.

[tinyclanger2]

la la la
la la la la la
every night, every day...
la la la
la la la la la

[PorFavor]

It's August. I'm sat here freezing and wondering how much colder it can possibly get. And it's been pissing down all day.

[ohsocynical]

Mrs OhSo,it's 21degrees in mine.
This is a warm little house though.
In the winter the sitting room didn't drop below 14 degrees on the coldest night,and that's with a hole where the cat flap used to be.
It was 12 degrees outside this morning at six,but 22 in the house.

I'm hoping where we're going will be warmer. This place is so draughty. No insulation on the wooden cladded walls...And only joined onto a neighbour via one wall. Can't wait to move.

What will happen to your broadband when you move? You've just had it updated I think?

Luckily Virgin has their fibre optic cable laid in the complex where we're going. I'm told they'll seamlessly provide me with the same at the new address ... Why am I not convinced. It's never that easy.

[Rebecca]

I'm hoping where we're going will be warmer. This place is so draughty. No insulation on the wooden cladded walls...And only joined onto a neighbour via one wall. Can't wait to move.

What will happen to your broadband when you move? You've just had it updated I think?

Luckily Virgin has their fibre optic cable laid in the complex where we're going. I'm told they'll seamlessly provide me with the same at the new address ... Why am I not convinced. It's never that easy.

Ha!
I moved ONE street,almost the same postcode,was with virgin and I had to 1)cancel my contract and pay a cancellation fee, and 2)have a new phone number.

[PorFavor]

For information -

Here's a copy of an e-mail I've just received:

Dear ,

This week, the candidates to be Labour's next Prime Minister will take part in the first in a series of live debates.

The candidates will meet in Cardiff on Thursday to answer questions submitted online by members and supporters of the Party. You can watch them answer these questions live online from 7pm, Thursday 4 August at labour.org.uk/debates

You are currently eligible to vote in the Leadership Election, and to keep your vote you must continue to be up-to-date with your membership payments until 8 August.

Your ballot will be dispatched to you by the end of August via email and in the post, and you'll have until noon 21 September to vote.

To help you make up your mind about who to vote for, don't forget to tune in to the debate on Thursday.

The Labour Party