Monday, 1st August 2016

[PorFavor]

Good morfternoon.

[HindleA]

Good Morfternoon.Bright sunny day here,the birds a singing ,the tea a brewing, the ash a falling vaguely near an ashtray,the reassuring and comforting coughing,welcoming a new day.



Edited to correct too vague a spelling of vaguely,still looks wrong but apparently now spelt correctly.There is probably a word for words not looking like they should.

[HindleA]

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/labou ... 8f9920046c" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


"Labour’s founder faced jail as enemy of the state

Jeremy Corbyn may feel beleaguered but his party’s founder faced a far more serious threat.

Previously classified files reveal that ministers thought James Keir Hardie an enemy of the state and considered jailing him for life.

The Lanarkshire miner, who became the joint first Labour MP in 1900 and the party leader from 1906 to 1908, is now widely regarded as a political pioneer.

However, government documents seen by The Times show that he was put under surveillance by the security services.

The Home Office was so concerned by his radical agenda that it considered using 18th-century legislation to put him behind bars and end his career.


Official documents from 1912, which have been placed in the National Archives at Kew, show that ministers believed that the MP was attempting to “promote ill will” and cause class war. It was suggested that he be arrested under the Incitement to Mutiny Act of 1797, which carried a life sentence of “penal servitude” with no chance of parole. Documents show that intelligence officers attended an address that Keir Hardie made to a crowd of thousands in Bristol on June 15, 1912. He was reported to be championing a motion that called for the “murderous international capitalist system” to be destroyed.

An internal document marked “seditious language” states: “[Keir Hardie’s] language is well calculated not only to raise discontent or disaffection amongst HM’s subjects and promote feelings of ill will and hostility between different classes, but also to incite subjects to a disturbance of the peace and to excite them to attempt to bring about changes in the law otherwise than by lawful means.”

The original penalty for inciting mutiny was death, but this was reduced to penal servitude for life in 1857.

It was eventually decided that arresting Keir Hardie would prove too controversial. A government memo from August 1912 said: “This is not a case that calls for criminal proceedings.”

Hardie died in 1915, but the state continued to regard Labour as a threat to national security. An MI5 dossier of “revolutionary movements” noted that the annual conference of the Scottish Independent Labour Party was monitored in January 1920."

[ephemerid]

Morning all.

Thanks to HindleA for the links on W&B - there's a fair bit of reading there.......DWP statistics are a real mess and have been for some time, IMHO.
Every new change seems to end up with significant chunks of information going missing. "Experimental" statistics my arse.

I've just finished reading the Owen Jones article discussed yesterday. I think he is expecting the impossible, frankly.

It's fair to say that Corbyn's team and shadow cabinet are inexperienced, and yes they are making mistakes - but I wonder if that would have been the case had the likes of Cooper, Reeves, etc. stayed on and lent their skills and experience to the new leadership.
It's also fair to say that there is a bit of a gap where media strategy should be - but as we know, the media generally have been very hostile.
3 academic studies have now shown that newspapers, TV/radio news, and some online media are biased - to a ridiculous degree.

It seems to me that Jones has not made the connection between when the really poor polling began and the "chicken coup". I'm inclined to think that a lot of voters - especially the swing/undecided voters - are thinking "a plague on both your houses" and aren't interested in a divided party.
Corbyn and his team have made mistakes, certainly - but considering the onslaught of attacks from not only the media but his own PLP, it's amazing that he's still there at all. I don't think he's had a chance to do much, let alone to get everything right, in such a short time.

This is the same sort of stuff that Brown and Miliband had to deal with - and with every new leader, the vitriol and lack of support increases in intensity. If the plotters don't get Corbyn out, what then? If Smith wins, does anyone seriously think that he's going to be supported?
I don't believe the crisis in Labour has much to do with Corbyn or anyone else who puts themselves up for the leadership - I think it's to do with a bunch of people who think the only way to beat the Tories is to out-Tory them, to get power at any price, and to keep New Labour alive.

It's a mess.

[PorFavor]

I haven't had any voting papers for the NEC elections yet. Should I have? What can I do if I have? And am I too late?

Hello. Postal ballots must arrive by noon on 5th August 2016 (presumably the on-line deadline is the same). I hope that helps.

Edited to add -

That's completed postal ballots, for the avoidance of doubt.

[TobyLatimer]

Morning all.

Thanks to HindleA for the links on W&B - there's a fair bit of reading there.......DWP statistics are a real mess and have been for some time, IMHO.
Every new change seems to end up with significant chunks of information going missing. "Experimental" statistics my arse.

I've just finished reading the Owen Jones article discussed yesterday. I think he is expecting the impossible, frankly.

It's fair to say that Corbyn's team and shadow cabinet are inexperienced, and yes they are making mistakes - but I wonder if that would have been the case had the likes of Cooper, Reeves, etc. stayed on and lent their skills and experience to the new leadership.
It's also fair to say that there is a bit of a gap where media strategy should be - but as we know, the media generally have been very hostile.
3 academic studies have now shown that newspapers, TV/radio news, and some online media are biased - to a ridiculous degree.

It seems to me that Jones has not made the connection between when the really poor polling began and the "chicken coup". I'm inclined to think that a lot of voters - especially the swing/undecided voters - are thinking "a plague on both your houses" and aren't interested in a divided party.
Corbyn and his team have made mistakes, certainly - but considering the onslaught of attacks from not only the media but his own PLP, it's amazing that he's still there at all. I don't think he's had a chance to do much, let alone to get everything right, in such a short time.

This is the same sort of stuff that Brown and Miliband had to deal with - and with every new leader, the vitriol and lack of support increases in intensity. If the plotters don't get Corbyn out, what then? If Smith wins, does anyone seriously think that he's going to be supported?
I don't believe the crisis in Labour has much to do with Corbyn or anyone else who puts themselves up for the leadership - I think it's to do with a bunch of people who think the only way to beat the Tories is to out-Tory them, to get power at any price, and to keep New Labour alive.

It's a mess.

On a related note, I spotted this earlier

An open letter to Owen Jones. " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I agree fully about the front bench people who quit from day one, they have helped create the mess that the PLP are up in arms about. Authors of their own misfortune, as my old gaffer used to say.

[Swarthlander]

Happy Yorkshire Day.

Roll on independence.


Disclaimer: From a Lancastrian.

As for my 'renewing' my Labour Party membership - I've decided not to.

[yahyah]

You can vote online, ballots for the NEC don't have to be paper ones.

[PorFavor]

You can vote online, ballots for the NEC don't have to be paper ones.

Presumably I need to be sent a voter ID etc? I haven't had any communications about it at all

Yes - you should have received something online by now.

[yahyah]

They must be able to send you the email with your codes.
I'd go straight to the membership dept at Labour HQ, by phone.

[StephenDolan]

Morning all.

Thanks to HindleA for the links on W&B - there's a fair bit of reading there.......DWP statistics are a real mess and have been for some time, IMHO.
Every new change seems to end up with significant chunks of information going missing. "Experimental" statistics my arse.

I've just finished reading the Owen Jones article discussed yesterday. I think he is expecting the impossible, frankly.

It's fair to say that Corbyn's team and shadow cabinet are inexperienced, and yes they are making mistakes - but I wonder if that would have been the case had the likes of Cooper, Reeves, etc. stayed on and lent their skills and experience to the new leadership.
It's also fair to say that there is a bit of a gap where media strategy should be - but as we know, the media generally have been very hostile.
3 academic studies have now shown that newspapers, TV/radio news, and some online media are biased - to a ridiculous degree.

It seems to me that Jones has not made the connection between when the really poor polling began and the "chicken coup". I'm inclined to think that a lot of voters - especially the swing/undecided voters - are thinking "a plague on both your houses" and aren't interested in a divided party.
Corbyn and his team have made mistakes, certainly - but considering the onslaught of attacks from not only the media but his own PLP, it's amazing that he's still there at all. I don't think he's had a chance to do much, let alone to get everything right, in such a short time.

This is the same sort of stuff that Brown and Miliband had to deal with - and with every new leader, the vitriol and lack of support increases in intensity. If the plotters don't get Corbyn out, what then? If Smith wins, does anyone seriously think that he's going to be supported?
I don't believe the crisis in Labour has much to do with Corbyn or anyone else who puts themselves up for the leadership - I think it's to do with a bunch of people who think the only way to beat the Tories is to out-Tory them, to get power at any price, and to keep New Labour alive.

It's a mess.

On a related note, I spotted this earlier

An open letter to Owen Jones. " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I agree fully about the front bench people who quit from day one, they have helped create the mess that the PLP are up in arms about. Authorsvof thrir own misfortune as my old gaffer used to say.

Morning all.

Enjoyed reading both of those pieces. The simple, tight phrases are repeated ad infinitum by all Labour spokespeople is definitely something that's required IMHO. Jobs, housing and public services availability. Get these into a positive sentence. Ditto the economy. Force May and Hammond to either disown or own people's financial state under Cameron and Osborne. There's a positive for Labour either way if approached correctly.

[PorFavor]

Giving honours such as knighthoods to allies who have supported the prime minister is a “relatively light” way of paying off debts of honour built up while in government, a former minister and aide to David Cameron has said. (Guardian)

I'm glad he's cleared that up for us. So what, pray tell, would be the alternative (or, more likely, additional) ways? And Sir Philip Green doesn't seem to take his knighthood (or the possible loss thereof) very "lightly".

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... x-minister




Edited

Brackets

[gilsey]

On a related note, I spotted this earlier

An open letter to Owen Jones. " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I agree fully about the front bench people who quit from day one, they have helped create the mess that the PLP are up in arms about. Authorsvof thrir own misfortune as my old gaffer used to say.

That's a good read, I think it's pretty much what Tem's been saying, he can correct me if I'm wrong.

[Temulkar]

On a related note, I spotted this earlier

An open letter to Owen Jones. " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I agree fully about the front bench people who quit from day one, they have helped create the mess that the PLP are up in arms about. Authorsvof thrir own misfortune as my old gaffer used to say.

That's a good read, I think it's pretty much what Tem's been saying, he can correct me if I'm wrong.

Pretty much - having skim read it.

[Temulkar]

In fact an article I wrote about Corbyn last year.

http://englishhistoryauthors.blogspot.c ... ng-of.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Temulkar]

And whilst its probably enough to get me banned from the leadership contest - if I was a member - the lyrics from the red flag, in particular the cowards flinch and traitors sneer, seem to have been made for the PLP's current predicament. I honestly see The Project as a middle class Whiggish takeover of Labour that blunted its radicalism, and deliberately alienated the working class membership. Corbyn is the symptom of that, and perhaps the only chance for the people to get their party back from the hijackers.

[citizenJA]

Good-morning, everyone.

[AnatolyKasparov]

Giving honours such as knighthoods to allies who have supported the prime minister is a “relatively light” way of paying off debts of honour built up while in government, a former minister and aide to David Cameron has said. (Guardian)

I'm glad he's cleared that up for us. So what, pray tell, would be the alternative (or, more likely, additional) ways? And Sir Philip Green doesn't seem to take his knighthood (or the possible loss thereof) very "lightly".

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... x-minister




Edited

Brackets

When a verray, parfit, gentil knighte makes an oath of homage to his lorde, his sweete loyaltie shoulde be muche pryzed and rewarded with lands and incomes

Or put another way, the modern day Lavender List

[Temulkar]

Just as an aside, you know we have spent about 500 billion on our military in the last 15 years (2% of GDP cumulatively over 15 years) and that's without the extra 40 billion Iraq and Afhganistan cost, and no estimate for Lybia and Syria and the ongoing war with Daesh.

Most of that money was spent by a Labour government - a labour government mind you - sending tanks to scuttle around the world handing out liberal intervention like it was a christmas present.

That's a hell of a lot of doctors, nurses, teachers, police, firemen, social workers isn't it?

[AnatolyKasparov]

Meanwhile, it seems that UKIP are trying their best to make Labour's leadership contest look like a model of calm and decorum

[PorFavor]

Meanwhile, it seems that UKIP are trying their best to make Labour's leadership contest look like a model of calm and decorum

Yes - I mentioned it yesterday. Nigel Farage's "hold the fort for a while" placeman caught my eye, in particular.

[PorFavor]

Theresa May will not block Cameron's 'cronies' honours list

Downing Street says that any move to block her predecessor’s recommendations would ‘set very bad precedent’
There had been calls for Theresa May to block David Cameron’s resignation honours list. (Guardian)

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... nours-list

[ohsocynical]

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/labou ... 8f9920046c


"Labour’s founder faced jail as enemy of the state

Jeremy Corbyn may feel beleaguered but his party’s founder faced a far more serious threat.

Previously classified files reveal that ministers thought James Keir Hardie an enemy of the state and considered jailing him for life.

The Lanarkshire miner, who became the joint first Labour MP in 1900 and the party leader from 1906 to 1908, is now widely regarded as a political pioneer.

However, government documents seen by The Times show that he was put under surveillance by the security services.

The Home Office was so concerned by his radical agenda that it considered using 18th-century legislation to put him behind bars and end his career.


Official documents from 1912, which have been placed in the National Archives at Kew, show that ministers believed that the MP was attempting to “promote ill will” and cause class war. It was suggested that he be arrested under the Incitement to Mutiny Act of 1797, which carried a life sentence of “penal servitude” with no chance of parole. Documents show that intelligence officers attended an address that Keir Hardie made to a crowd of thousands in Bristol on June 15, 1912. He was reported to be championing a motion that called for the “murderous international capitalist system” to be destroyed.

An internal document marked “seditious language” states: “[Keir Hardie’s] language is well calculated not only to raise discontent or disaffection amongst HM’s subjects and promote feelings of ill will and hostility between different classes, but also to incite subjects to a disturbance of the peace and to excite them to attempt to bring about changes in the law otherwise than by lawful means.”

The original penalty for inciting mutiny was death, but this was reduced to penal servitude for life in 1857.

It was eventually decided that arresting Keir Hardie would prove too controversial. A government memo from August 1912 said: “This is not a case that calls for criminal proceedings.”

Hardie died in 1915, but the state continued to regard Labour as a threat to national security. An MI5 dossier of “revolutionary movements” noted that the annual conference of the Scottish Independent Labour Party was monitored in January 1920."

We seem to have come full circle.

[ohsocynical]

On a related note, I spotted this earlier

An open letter to Owen Jones. " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I agree fully about the front bench people who quit from day one, they have helped create the mess that the PLP are up in arms about. Authorsvof thrir own misfortune as my old gaffer used to say.

That's a good read, I think it's pretty much what Tem's been saying, he can correct me if I'm wrong.

Pretty much - having skim read it.

It's no wonder there's so much inefficiency between leader, MPs and other parts of the Labour Party. Can you imagine trying to work in an atomosphere that must be thick enough to cut with a knife? Even those who are simply trying to get on with their job must be disheartened and coming up against obstructive behaviour.

[HindleA]

http://www.itv.com/news/wales/2016-08-0 ... sabilites/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Personal Independence Payment scheme having a 'devastating effect' on those with disabilities
Disability Wales says the UK government's Personal Independence Payment scheme is having a devastating effect on those with disabilities.

[ohsocynical]

'HE WAS SEX MAD' Sleazy MP Simon Danczuk, 49, had sex with woman, 22, on desk in his office
The pair enjoyed a spanking session just days after meeting online

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/1532094/s ... is-office/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Sorry, but he must have really upset them.

[Willow904]

https://next.ft.com/content/a37459ac-39 ... 1de6a61009" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The UK government does not know what to do about Brexit. This is not a rhetorical exaggeration, it is a statement of fact

[HindleA]

Student grants replaced by loans


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-369 ... ce=twitter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[ohsocynical]

An open letter to Owen Jones
Drafted yesterday, before Owen published Questions all Jeremy Corbyn supporters need to answer. It is therefore not a direct reply, but stands, as a contribution to the same debate.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[yahyah]

Toby posted that link to Chaloner's piece this morning.

Owen Jones' piece came as a bit of a relief.
Someone who can't be written off as a right winger actually acknowledging the problems.
But he'll get grief from some for poking at the denial.

[HindleA]

http://www.doughtystreet.co.uk/news/art ... her-articl" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



Disabled woman’s welfare benefits inadequate to avoid a breach of her Article 3 ECHR rights

he High Court has declared the London Borough of Camden’s refusal to provide accommodation to a disabled woman a breach of Article 3. GS is not entitled to means tested social security but receives a Personal Independence Payment (‘PIP’), a benefit designed to meet the additional living costs caused by significant disabilities. The Council maintained that GS could meet her essential living needs from her weekly PIP payment and therefore it did not have to provide her with services. GS, by her litigation friend the Official Solicitor, argued that she could not afford accommodation and that the Council had a duty to provide it in order to avoid a breach of ECHR rights. The court agreed with GS. It found as a question of fact that she could not afford accommodation and, having regard to her disabilities, a failure to provide accommodation gave rise to an imminent breach of Article 3. The Court rejected the Claimant’s argument that a duty arose under the Care Act 2014 but accepted that a power existed under s.1 Localism Act 2011 and that power was converted into a duty by virtue of s.6 Human Rights Act 1998. The Claimant was represented by Julie Cornes of Simpson Millar and Jamie Burton of Doughty Street Chambers.

[AnatolyKasparov]

Toby posted that link to Chaloner's piece this morning.

Owen Jones' piece came as a bit of a relief.
Someone who can't be written off as a right winger actually acknowledging the problems.
But he'll get grief from some for poking at the denial.

But what solutions does he propose?

In the absence of that, it comes across somewhat as hand wringing.

[ohsocynical]

I've more or less stopped reading opinion pieces because if I let myself be influenced by them I'm taking on someone else's views and opinions and I choose to live with my view of morality, not theirs.

I am going with what my instincts and principles told me right at the beginning when Corbyn was first elected. And now the man himself is less important than the events that ensued [and are still going on], despite his winning fairly and squarely.

[yahyah]

Toby posted that link to Chaloner's piece this morning.

Owen Jones' piece came as a bit of a relief.
Someone who can't be written off as a right winger actually acknowledging the problems.
But he'll get grief from some for poking at the denial.

But what solutions does he propose?

In the absence of that, it comes across somewhat as hand wringing.

Sometimes hand wringing is all you can do. The very fact that he has been open about what he thinks is invaluable.
It seems to have had an impact on Rob S, judging by his comment.
It makes me feel less alone in my concerns about the way things are going. Can't be the only one.

And at least Jones is going through the stages of grief, he's moving away from denial.
Maybe something will come forth from the gap left behind when 'He's our only hope' is let go of.
Suspect some who voted for Corbyn last year have been waiting for a person who can't be derided as a right winger to talk about the real concerns. There might even be shy Smith voters, keeping their views to themselves because of the flak.

[ohsocynical]

It's going to be interesting in a years time to see who was proved right.

[AnatolyKasparov]

I'm voting for Smith, and think the programme he is putting forward is quite an attractive one.

The main concern I have - and IMO it is something stopping many from voting for him - is that he is a Trojan Horse for "dark forces".

(you know, the types briefing hacks that "if he wins, we'll be dumping him for Chuka Umunna or David Miliband before the election")

[gilsey]

the man himself is less important than the events that ensued [and are still going on], despite his winning fairly and squarely.

We don't see enough of this comment, although I'm sure there are many who agree with you.
I'm sure there are 'Corbyn cultists', they're likely a tiny minority, but I don't think I've seen a MSM comment piece that doesn't assume they're a majority in the membership. I suspect there are far more who think like you.

[gilsey]

It's going to be interesting in a years time to see who was proved right.

I'll be very surprised if there's a definitive answer so soon.

[RogerOThornhill]

Flagship free school trio found guilty of defrauding Department for Education

http://schoolsweek.co.uk/flagship-free- ... education/

The principal, financial director and teacher at a flagship free school have been found guilty of defrauding the Department for Education (DfE) out of around £150,000.

A jury today convicted Sajid Husain Raza, 43, Daud Khan, 44, and Shabana Hussain, 40, of fraudulently obtaining the cash from government grants to set up Kings Science Academy, in Bradford.

The school was one of the first waves of free schools to open in 2011, and was visited by then prime minister David Cameron (pictured above with Raza) in its first year, who said he was “very impressed”.

and

“Far from being a model school, Raza treated the academy like a family business, employing his relatives there and, for at least the first 12 months, operating with no proper governance. His co-defendants were also drawn into this criminality.”

Great oversight there from the DfE!

[StephenDolan]

It's going to be interesting in a years time to see who was proved right.

I'll be very surprised if there's a definitive answer so soon.

History belongs to the victors

[citizenJA]

But what solutions does he propose?

In the absence of that, it comes across somewhat as hand wringing.

Sometimes hand wringing is all you can do. The very fact that he has been open about what he thinks is invaluable.
It seems to have had an impact on Rob S, judging by his comment.
It makes me feel less alone in my concerns about the way things are going. Can't be the only one.

And at least Jones is going through the stages of grief, he's moving away from denial.
Maybe something will come forth from the gap left behind when 'He's our only hope' is let go of.
Suspect some who voted for Corbyn last year have been waiting for a person who can't be derided as a right winger to talk about the real concerns. There might even be shy Smith voters, keeping their views to themselves because of the flak.

The problem, as pointed out by the open letter to Owen Jones linked earlier, and by Tem, is that the civil war has been boiled down to a choice between Owen Smith and Jeremy Corbyn. That means if you're voting for Owen Smith, you're not just voting for Owen Smith as leader - you're voting to put the members back in their box, to accept that the PLP holds the whip hand, and leaving the situation open for future leaders to suffer death by a thousand media briefings. The only way to vote against those things is to vote for Corbyn (and the leftwing slate on the NEC), accepting the fact that he lacks the skills and the support to do the job we actually require of a leader. It's a Kobayashi Maru with a side order of Catch 22 and words cannot express my fury at the idiots in the PLP for inflicting this on us.

How I vote isn't a declaration of war on anyone.

[ohsocynical]

the man himself is less important than the events that ensued [and are still going on], despite his winning fairly and squarely.

We don't see enough of this comment, although I'm sure there are many who agree with you.
I'm sure there are 'Corbyn cultists', they're likely a tiny minority, but I don't think I've seen a MSM comment piece that doesn't assume they're a majority in the membership. I suspect there are far more who think like you.

Thank you.

[ohsocynical]

The problem, as pointed out by the open letter to Owen Jones linked earlier, and by Tem, is that the civil war has been boiled down to a choice between Owen Smith and Jeremy Corbyn. That means if you're voting for Owen Smith, you're not just voting for Owen Smith as leader - you're voting to put the members back in their box, to accept that the PLP holds the whip hand, and leaving the situation open for future leaders to suffer death by a thousand media briefings. The only way to vote against those things is to vote for Corbyn (and the leftwing slate on the NEC), accepting the fact that he lacks the skills and the support to do the job we actually require of a leader. It's a Kobayashi Maru with a side order of Catch 22 and words cannot express my fury at the idiots in the PLP for inflicting this on us.

How I vote isn't a declaration of war on anyone.

Maybe not, but a vote constitutes picking a side, whether the voter intends it to or not.

Despite all the whitewash, I can't help feeling a vote for Smith is a vote for much that we've railed against since this board was conceived

[ohsocynical]

And the wisdom of saying you should always consider both sides of a situation or story means that many who've joined are probably voting as much against the PLP as they are for Corbyn, but it's pleasanter to focus on the positive.

[55DegreesNorth]

Afternoon folks,
Sitting in the very hot sun here with a cold beer, having spent the day gardening for the in laws. Regarding the leadership, I'm continually reminded of Benn, ( the real one we used to get, not the plastic knock-offs we have to put up with now). Personalities aren't what matters, it's the ishoos. The ishoos.
I think Corbyn has got the ishoos nailed, and has been consistent for decades. He might not be photogenic or media savvy but hey, it's not a presidential system. The rest of the shadow cabinet have/should have a range of skills to utilise, if they genuinely supported his position.
Smith put forward a platform I could support, but I'm not sure he could. If he had any views over the last few years, I'm not aware of them. Probably failure to pay attention on my part, but I'm not convinced.
Back to gardening - I'm getting tomatoes beginning to ripen already. If you haven't tried gardening in the Toon, you won't understand.

[howsillyofme1]

Afternoon all

How John McTernan can ever be considered to be a Labour 'grandee' when all he is has done is lose elections, write in a Tory newspaper and defend cameron whenever he can....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/08 ... h-honours/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is the type of person who is considered a 'moderate' and a 'loyalist' along with MPs such as Woodcock and Reed

[Temulkar]

It's going to be interesting in a years time to see who was proved right.

I'll be very surprised if there's a definitive answer so soon.

History belongs to the victors

The histoire evenementielle is the preserve of journalists and diarists not historians. In the longue duree it all comes out in the wash.

A single pebble cannot change the course of a river, but many pebbles built up together can dam the bloody thing, but you have got to start with the first pebble.

[ohsocynical]

Owen Smith 2016 ‏@owensmith2016 3h3 hours ago
Owen was in Yorkshire a few days ago where he announced £50bn of funding for the North #YorkshireDay #Owen2016

Wayne Gardner
‏@14wayne
@owensmith2016 @lynbrownmp How can you `announce' funding if you are not a government minister?

Can you? I honestly don't know how it works at this level.

[ohsocynical]

Afternoon all

How John McTernan can ever be considered to be a Labour 'grandee' when all he is has done is lose elections, write in a Tory newspaper and defend cameron whenever he can....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/08 ... h-honours/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is the type of person who is considered a 'moderate' and a 'loyalist' along with MPs such as Woodcock and Reed

I thought moderate was the new buzz word. Means little but sounds good.

[ohsocynical]

Afternoon folks,
Sitting in the very hot sun here with a cold beer, having spent the day gardening for the in laws. Regarding the leadership, I'm continually reminded of Benn, ( the real one we used to get, not the plastic knock-offs we have to put up with now). Personalities aren't what matters, it's the ishoos. The ishoos.
I think Corbyn has got the ishoos nailed, and has been consistent for decades. He might not be photogenic or media savvy but hey, it's not a presidential system. The rest of the shadow cabinet have/should have a range of skills to utilise, if they genuinely supported his position.
Smith put forward a platform I could support, but I'm not sure he could. If he had any views over the last few years, I'm not aware of them. Probably failure to pay attention on my part, but I'm not convinced.
Back to gardening - I'm getting tomatoes beginning to ripen already. If you haven't tried gardening in the Toon, you won't understand.

HOT SUN ? It's cold, grey and trying to rain here. I've got a jumper and a cardigan on.