Sat 12 and Sun 13 November 2016

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sun 13 Nov, 2016 2:24 pm

and Mike Smithson has pointed out that when all the votes in the US are counted Clinton's lead is not that far from what the polls said. The electoral college is another story of course.

Womble44 · Post by **Womble44** » Sun 13 Nov, 2016 2:26 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:The banks are leaving London
http://uk.businessinsider.com/confident ... xit-2016-7" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Nissan would be on its way without May's unrealistic/unknown promises

Ford to consider closing UK factories in Leave towns after Brexit
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/busin ... 62561.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Firms plan to quit UK as City braces for more post-Brexit losses
https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... de-reopens" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

British jobs market 'in freefall' after Brexit vote as Bank warns 250,000 jobs will be lost over next few years
Read more:
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news ... years.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Autumn Statement: Hammond must 'prepare for more austerity' as Brexit raises borrowing by £25bn
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/201 ... y-as-brex/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Quite a lot of what Remain said would happen is happening, its just happening quietly because they don't want to frighten the horses.

Until the factories are actually closing, I think a lot of brexiters will still convince themselves the problems don't exist.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 13 Nov, 2016 2:31 pm

Yes I agree. And then I'm not sure they'll be that bothered. Except where directly affected.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 13 Nov, 2016 2:42 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/public-lead ... p#comments" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I assess if you are fit for work. I hate having to score your life this way.

Hmm.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 13 Nov, 2016 2:47 pm

National borders are just another religion. 4.6 billion years of planet; 800 million years of England as terrestrial crust; 10,000 years of continuous human occupation of said piece of terrestrial crust; just over 1000 years of England as a nation (created by foreign invaders from Europe).

Mad really.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 13 Nov, 2016 2:48 pm

JonnyT1234 wrote:Genuine question: do people advocating for a 2nd referendum think that the level of debate this time around would be any better or more informative than last?

Both side's trump cards have been played (more money for the NHS/economic Armageddon after the vote). Both have proven laughably false. What does Remain have in its hand that will best the immigration card that Leave will slap on the table every time?

(My own responses:

Yes, but not by so much that you'd notice.

Not a lot, and most of it negative like, 'they said we'd get £350million back each week for the NHS, they lied'. Which may well succeed, but it's hardly what I'd consider a very strong hand.)

I'm not too much interested in a second referendum regarding the UK in the EU. What for? What question? Will there be a minimum
turn-out necessary to validate the result? I've many other questions beyond those. Cameron's EU referendum was a bad thing. What
will make it better?

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 13 Nov, 2016 2:54 pm

A referendum on whether we should have another referendum about having another referendum.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sun 13 Nov, 2016 2:58 pm

JonnyT1234 wrote:
Willow904 wrote:
JonnyT1234 wrote:Genuine question: do people advocating for a 2nd referendum think that the level of debate this time around would be any better or more informative than last?

Both side's trump cards have been played (more money for the NHS/economic Armageddon after the vote). Both have proven laughably false. What does Remain have in its hand that will best the immigration card that Leave will slap on the table every time?

(My own responses:

Yes, but not by so much that you'd notice.

Not a lot, and most of it negative like, 'they said we'd get £350million back each week for the NHS, they lied'. Which may well succeed, but it's hardly what I'd consider a very strong hand.)
I'm not aware anyone is seriously proposing a second in/out referendum. Those supporting a further referendum such as the Greens are proposing one on the form Brexit should take. As polls suggest a majority support remaining in the single market, it's undemocratic to allow the government to pursue a hard Brexit without a mandate. I'm not especially optimistic that a further referendum would be any less catastrophic than the first, from my own perspective, but I feel it is unacceptable for such a large decision for the country to be taken with no democratic mandate behind it. A General Election would be preferable, as Owen Smith has advocated, but seems even less likely. The main point of pushing for a further referendum, however, given May is unlikely to grant one anyway, is to underline and draw attention to the democratic deficit at the heart of May's actions. In the EU referendum the British public voted against EU membership, but they didn't vote for anything. I feel it's important to push back at the Tory narrative of a hard Brexit being the only option and proposing a further referendum to decide between two Brexit choices helps re-enforce the fact that there are different choices, different options, that the path is not yet set.
A fair point, and one I can see the worth in though I think Parliament is probably the better place for this to be argued and won, but what you are describing is not a second referendum but just a referendum.

NB. Many people were advocating for a second referendum - on leave/remain, not the terms of Brexit. You had/have been yourself.

I have made no argument for a second in/out referendum for some considerable time if at all, although of course directly after the vote I was sympathetic. I assumed when you asked the question what people were hoping to get out of a second referendum you were talking about parties and politicians calling for one currently such as the Greens and some in Labour who are asking for a referendum on the terms of Brexit. I think there is merit in this, but on looking back through the posts I realise Ed Miliband's opposition to a second referendum may not refer to this kind of referendum, I don't know. What I do know, however, fwiw, is when I said I was disappointed in Ed Miliband it was in regard to his comments on immigration. They may be out of context, but he's said other things before about listening to voters on immigration which I haven't been happy with either because such talk takes us out of the single market and into economic oblivion.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 13 Nov, 2016 3:04 pm

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 13701.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
quarter of trump transition team to be trumps

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 13 Nov, 2016 3:05 pm

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 14776.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
tsunami follows NZ tremor

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 13 Nov, 2016 3:10 pm

yahyah wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Temulkar wrote:Milliband against a second referendum, and against freedom of movement.
He has a good case on the second referendum, at least.

Et tu Ed ?

I'm sort of with him on the second referendum (for the present) but the freedom of movement bit? Do you have any further information on what he said, please?

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Sun 13 Nov, 2016 3:12 pm

yahyah wrote:and Mike Smithson has pointed out that when all the votes in the US are counted Clinton's lead is not that far from what the polls said. The electoral college is another story of course.

This is just cherry-picking bollocks of the sort that would make a climate change denier proud, "Despite the very clear evidence showing how completely wrong we were, if you look at this one little bit of it, we got it 100% right."

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 13 Nov, 2016 3:14 pm

HindleA wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/public-lead ... p#comments

I assess if you are fit for work. I hate having to score your life this way.

Hmm.

As I've said here before, the people in such jobs may not necessarily have a choice in what jobs they take (or, indeed, leave) so I tend not to be too quick to judge.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sun 13 Nov, 2016 3:19 pm

Someone's grumpy.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sun 13 Nov, 2016 3:29 pm

I am not, and never have been, a climate change denier. So it is [quote] bollox to pull that one.

daydreamer · Post by **daydreamer** » Sun 13 Nov, 2016 3:34 pm

yahyah wrote:I am not, and never have been, a climate change denier. So it is bollox to pull that one.

[/quote]

He doesn't mean you Yahyah. He means the pollsters.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sun 13 Nov, 2016 3:35 pm

JonnyT1234 wrote:
yahyah wrote:and Mike Smithson has pointed out that when all the votes in the US are counted Clinton's lead is not that far from what the polls said. The electoral college is another story of course.
This is just cherry-picking bollocks of the sort that would make a climate change denier proud, "Despite the very clear evidence showing how completely wrong we were, if you look at this one little bit of it, we got it 100% right."

It's actually quite important. Discrepancy between the polls and the outcome, combined with stories circulating about potential Russian hacking of electronic polling machines is leading to some pretty wild vote rigging conspiracy theories on social media. If ultimately the vote matches the polls, just not in the most helpful of places for the Democrats, it may help to calm things down a bit. Incidentally, Trump seems to have done unexpectedly well in a few key states against polling expectations, but not elsewhere. Does anyone know if that's an accurate impression and have any insight into how that may have happened, (that doesn't involve fraud!)?

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 13 Nov, 2016 3:47 pm

whatshisname on the US polling

http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 13 Nov, 2016 3:54 pm

Willow904 wrote:
JonnyT1234 wrote:
yahyah wrote:and Mike Smithson has pointed out that when all the votes in the US are counted Clinton's lead is not that far from what the polls said. The electoral college is another story of course.
This is just cherry-picking bollocks of the sort that would make a climate change denier proud, "Despite the very clear evidence showing how completely wrong we were, if you look at this one little bit of it, we got it 100% right."
It's actually quite important. Discrepancy between the polls and the outcome, combined with stories circulating about potential Russian hacking of electronic polling machines is leading to some pretty wild vote rigging conspiracy theories on social media. If ultimately the vote matches the polls, just not in the most helpful of places for the Democrats, it may help to calm things down a bit. Incidentally, Trump seems to have done unexpectedly well in a few key states against polling expectations, but not elsewhere. Does anyone know if that's an accurate impression and have any insight into how that may have happened, (that doesn't involve fraud!)?

I haven't seen a thing.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 13 Nov, 2016 3:55 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:whatshisname on the US polling

http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thank you!

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 13 Nov, 2016 3:55 pm

I'd be interested in reading/hearing Ed Miliband's recent comments regarding freedom of movement mentioned here today. I've been unable to locate the source. Does anyone have the link?

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 13 Nov, 2016 3:59 pm

It was a snippet brought to us by the power of Temulkar. Temulkar can you give us the link?
Ta

daydreamer · Post by **daydreamer** » Sun 13 Nov, 2016 4:00 pm

citizenJA wrote:I'd be interested in reading/hearing Ed Miliband's recent comments regarding freedom of movement mentioned here today. I've been unable to locate the source. Does anyone have the link?

Agree Citizen, Everyone keeps mentioning it, but no link. We might have to look ourselves. Starting with the obvious sources like the Guardian.

Nope can't see it there.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 13 Nov, 2016 4:00 pm

PF with respect,we are talking about a £30,000 plus job that was chosen from someone that was working in the NHS.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 13 Nov, 2016 4:00 pm

Am taking requests for a Clanger picture if anyone has an idea (that's not hideous)

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 13 Nov, 2016 4:01 pm

Has the possibility of fraud been pursued and credibly ruled out?

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 13 Nov, 2016 4:03 pm

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-37968121" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The former Labour leader told ITV's Peston on Sunday June's Leave vote must be respected and there was "no question" of the UK staying put.
Some Labour and Lib Dem MPs have said they will oppose starting formal Brexit talks unless ministers promise a subsequent vote on the eventual deal.
Mr Miliband also called for curbs on freedom of movement rules in the UK.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 13 Nov, 2016 4:03 pm

The will of the people
Dontcha know.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 13 Nov, 2016 4:04 pm

Some of the forecasts were mighty different from the outcome.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 13 Nov, 2016 4:04 pm

HindleA wrote:PF with respect,we are talking about a £30,000 plus job that was chosen from someone that was working in the NHS.

Ah! Time to confess that I haven't actually got round to reading the article yet.

The previous occasion this particular subject came up, the article was written by somebody (of little, or no, influence) at the DWP.

Thanks.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 13 Nov, 2016 4:20 pm

I found this weeks Archive on Four interesting on "no platform" policy

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08295s7" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 13 Nov, 2016 4:33 pm

Corbyn
"We will respect the referendum," he told the BBC's Andrew Marr show. "Therefore, there is going to be a departure from the European
Union. We will demand that we have market access, workers' protection, consumer protection, environmental protection, justice issues
through the European Court."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37968121" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Miliband
In the ITV interview, Mr Miliband also said the current unrestricted right of EU citizens to live and work in the UK would have to come
to an end - a stance that potentially puts him at odds with his successor Jeremy Corbyn.

"If you are asking me should we carry on with free movement as was, I don't think we should. I do think in the Brexit negotiations we
have got to look for change in terms of free movement. One of the things from the referendum is that free movement cannot carry on
exactly as it did before."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37968121" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What Corbyn's asking for is what we've already got from the EU - I don't disagree with him, very good. What he's asking for is what
regular people have now. I wasn't aware Miliband wanted free movement restrictions prior the referendum or after it. Shocking
news to me. I'd like to know who and where Miliband wants restricted.

"One of the things from the referendum is that free movement cannot carry on exactly as it did before."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37968121" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(my emphasis)

No. The single thing asked was should the UK remain in the EU?

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 13 Nov, 2016 4:37 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:Am taking requests for a Clanger picture if anyone has an idea (that's not hideous)

You mean that picture isn't you?
oh god
how many more disillusionments to endure

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 13 Nov, 2016 4:43 pm

Don't worry - of course the picture is me.
What I mean is I occasionally cheer myself with a picture of other, less bearlike clangers looking at things. I am currently taking requests on what, for my next effort, that might be.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 13 Nov, 2016 4:44 pm

(last time, for example, it was tomorrow's supermoon)

Womble44 · Post by **Womble44** » Sun 13 Nov, 2016 5:42 pm

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I can't fault the enthusiasm, and it's great it's for charity, but I'm sorry, I almost cringed myself inside out

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 13 Nov, 2016 7:08 pm

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 12131.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
What Donald Trump's signature says about his personality, according to an expert
'He's hungry for power'

Well it's a good job they got her in or we'd never have known...

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Sun 13 Nov, 2016 7:09 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:
JonnyT1234 wrote:Genuine question: do people advocating for a 2nd referendum think that the level of debate this time around would be any better or more informative than last?

Both side's trump cards have been played (more money for the NHS/economic Armageddon after the vote). Both have proven laughably false. What does Remain have in its hand that will best the immigration card that Leave will slap on the table every time?

(My own responses:

Yes, but not by so much that you'd notice.

Not a lot, and most of it negative like, 'they said we'd get £350million back each week for the NHS, they lied'. Which may well succeed, but it's hardly what I'd consider a very strong hand.)
Not really.
Many people anyway will naturally resist being "wrong".
I am much more worried now about our slide into rascism, bigotry and general hatred than Brexit per se - though I do worry that being outside Europe will leave us weak and vulnerable.
I don't think that the economic armageddon was predicted for after the vote but after the event. And there will be a lag period even after the vote which won't yet be showing.

Stop funding hate might well be the best option for a consumer campaign we have, currently. It would be good if we could get existing campaigning orgs to join it as part of their own remit. Not sure how it would work, but some creative thinking could make it possible.

Is Miliband's position on freedom of movement that bothers me more. If he means it OK we differ on that; if it's part of the we have to be tories cos that's what people vote for thinking it's just part of the problem.

I don't think what Miliband said is necessarily that controversial, it just says there needs to be some change in freedom of movement, not how big a change.

It seems to fit in to what's been said elsewhere
i.e. (sorry, it's Patrick Wintour & think it's been linked to already)
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... cliff-edge

An interim bespoke deal is also seen by diplomats in countries traditionally sympathetic to the UK as a way of minimising the disruption and keeping open the possibility that the UK will never move to a further stage of complete divorce.
The most likely interim deal remains a version of Norway’s European Economic Area (EEA) agreement, but allied to changes to freedom of movement agreed across the EU. Senior figures in the EEA are lobbying the UK to look again at this option.
EU diplomats, now in frequent contact with pro-remain MPs, believe there is still scope to revive or develop aspects of David Cameron’s EU deal on migration , negotiated in February. They highlight the right of all EU governments under existing directives to remove any EU citizen who has failed to find a job within three months.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sun 13 Nov, 2016 7:18 pm

citizenJA wrote:
Corbyn
"We will respect the referendum," he told the BBC's Andrew Marr show. "Therefore, there is going to be a departure from the European
Union. We will demand that we have market access, workers' protection, consumer protection, environmental protection, justice issues
through the European Court."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37968121" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Miliband
In the ITV interview, Mr Miliband also said the current unrestricted right of EU citizens to live and work in the UK would have to come
to an end - a stance that potentially puts him at odds with his successor Jeremy Corbyn.

"If you are asking me should we carry on with free movement as was, I don't think we should. I do think in the Brexit negotiations we
have got to look for change in terms of free movement. One of the things from the referendum is that free movement cannot carry on
exactly as it did before."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37968121" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
What Corbyn's asking for is what we've already got from the EU - I don't disagree with him, very good. What he's asking for is what
regular people have now. I wasn't aware Miliband wanted free movement restrictions prior the referendum or after it. Shocking
news to me. I'd like to know who and where Miliband wants restricted.
"One of the things from the referendum is that free movement cannot carry on exactly as it did before."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37968121" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
(my emphasis)

No. The single thing asked was should the UK remain in the EU?

No. That is importantly wrong. Nothing on Corbyn's list requires y agreement with the EU. We can enact all that ourselves.

He is no EU fan remember.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sun 13 Nov, 2016 7:32 pm

I have been back to FTN on 24th of June and revisited my first comment in reaction to the EU referendum result:

Morning all.

Thanks for all the comments last night, I've just about caught up. Bristol solid for "remain" as expected so, with a Bristol postcode, at least I don't have to feel like a fish out of water. No doubt Somerset was big for "leave", I haven't had time to check yet. Hating having Rees-Mogg as my MP more than ever right now.

I have lots to digest and may have some more thoughts later on, but my first concern is Northern Ireland. It seems to me the only way to avert complete disaster would be to join the single market like Norway and continue with the free movement of people. I know that's not what a lot of people thought they were voting for, but technically the referendum was exclusively on membership of the EU, not on the single market, not on immigration. Politically and economically it's the most sensible option. Recent history suggests it won't happen, but I can hope. The idea of having a hard border between Northern and the Republic of Ireland is just unthinkable.

I remain convinced that the above, staying in the single market similar to Norway, is the least worst option possible and I still think it will be difficult to achieve this. Which is why I believe it has to be argued and fought for continuously as the best option at every opportunity.
Unfortunately I've seen little sign of this happening. At the moment it looks very much like we are heading out of the single market, and I'm extremely disappointed that the right-wing Eurosceptics are facing so little opposition on this.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 13 Nov, 2016 7:43 pm

I've no idea what government or the opposition are up to regarding the result of the EU referendum. I've yet to read or hear anything realistic and encouraging about the UK leaving the EU.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sun 13 Nov, 2016 7:45 pm

@tinybgoat

Although such a compromise certainly sounds promising, I remain concerned as to what happens if the UK can't win any concessions on free movement. If the advantages of remaining in the single market aren't articulated clearly, the public won't put pressure on the government to stay in and if attempts at reforming free movement fail, May's government may be tempted to put the interests of the party and retaining it's Eurosceptic, Ukip leaning votes over the best interests of the country as a whole. Even if May's government do go for the single market option, the country will remain deeply divided unless the case for staying in is loudly and convincingly made.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 13 Nov, 2016 7:52 pm

No more free movement of people
T May's Tory government and the opposition seem to agree there, is this correct?
Genuine question, I'm not arguing, just want to straighten out what's going on

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 13 Nov, 2016 7:56 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... tric-wards" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Revealed: dozens of children still treated on adult psychiatric wards

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 13 Nov, 2016 8:25 pm

https://en-gb.facebook.com/stopfundinghate/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
stop funding hate needs help to keep up the pressure
would it be useful to put together a list of e-mail addresses for customer services at relevant outlets (starting with the big supermarkets) - maybe even put together a template email?

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 13 Nov, 2016 8:30 pm

Stop Funding Hate was started by Wilson, 40, who has worked in human rights campaigning in Burundi after his sister was murdered there in 2000.

He started the Facebook page and petition backed by an informal group of friends, but they could become more organised after its success. “What we are at the moment is a bunch of people who have come together online, primarily through Facebook, friends of mine and others who have never met each other but share this common concern.”

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/t ... b70dc14989" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 13 Nov, 2016 8:33 pm

citizenJA wrote:No more free movement of people
T May's Tory government and the opposition seem to agree there, is this correct?
Genuine question, I'm not arguing, just want to straighten out what's going on

I believe it is correct. And at least parts of Labour at least were saying so before the referendum.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 13 Nov, 2016 8:40 pm

https://www.complaintsdepartment.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Your one stop resource for company complaints contacts, information and reviews. Simply search for the company you wish to raise your complaint with below, or browse our letter templates.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Sun 13 Nov, 2016 8:47 pm

Marine Le Pen isn’t the problem – the BBC panders to the right on a daily basis - the guardian
https://apple.news/AJiiE0Rv7RlaXoUXE8Gn_Gw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The current royal charter expires on 31 December and the latest renewal process was a tense period for friends of the BBC. Initially, horror stories abounded: would Britain lose a cherished cultural institution and a much-valued bulwark against the crass commercialism and unabashed propagandising of the private news media?

The truth is that the real threat to the BBC has never been from a sudden liquidation, but rather the gradual erosion of the values it claims to uphold. When it comes to independence, always something of a myth given the power governments wield over the BBC on funding, appointments and the charter itself, there are serious concerns over the planned “unitary board” that will for the first time involve government appointees in the day-to-day running.

A lot of truth to that. And you can apply it to almost every public institution the Tories are gradually grinding down. From the NHS to our libraries to our museums and galleries through to our schools.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sun 13 Nov, 2016 9:01 pm

Willow904 wrote:I have been back to FTN on 24th of June and revisited my first comment in reaction to the EU referendum result:

Morning all.

Thanks for all the comments last night, I've just about caught up. Bristol solid for "remain" as expected so, with a Bristol postcode, at least I don't have to feel like a fish out of water. No doubt Somerset was big for "leave", I haven't had time to check yet. Hating having Rees-Mogg as my MP more than ever right now.

I have lots to digest and may have some more thoughts later on, but my first concern is Northern Ireland. It seems to me the only way to avert complete disaster would be to join the single market like Norway and continue with the free movement of people. I know that's not what a lot of people thought they were voting for, but technically the referendum was exclusively on membership of the EU, not on the single market, not on immigration. Politically and economically it's the most sensible option. Recent history suggests it won't happen, but I can hope. The idea of having a hard border between Northern and the Republic of Ireland is just unthinkable.
I remain convinced that the above, staying in the single market similar to Norway, is the least worst option possible and I still think it will be difficult to achieve this. Which is why I believe it has to be argued and fought for continuously as the best option at every opportunity.
Unfortunately I've seen little sign of this happening. At the moment it looks very much like we are heading out of the single market, and I'm extremely disappointed that the right-wing Eurosceptics are facing so little opposition on this.

Couldn't agree more.

I expected no different but from, say, Gove or Corbyn. They opposed EU membership for decades.

I did expect better of "my" wing of Labour. Calling for ending free movement and meaningless "access" to the single market is a disgrace.