Monday 24th July 2017
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Welcome to FTN. New posters are welcome to join the conversation. You can follow us on Twitter @FlythenestHaven You are responsible for the content you post. This is a public forum. Treat it as if you are speaking in a crowded room. Site admin and Moderators are volunteers who will respond as quickly as they are able to when made aware of any complaints. Please do not post copyrighted material without the original authors permission.
Re: Monday 24th July 2017
Have a good night, everyone
love,
cJA
love,
cJA
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Re: Monday 24th July 2017
He's the Leader of the Opposition. Comes with the territory. I think Caroline Flint is much worse, but she's not even shadow paperclips minister.Temulkar wrote:Yet he incessantly focuses on one personality to the exclusion of all else in the situation, so...citizenJA wrote:If Tubby Isaacs is concerned about a thing, it's not likely initiated by personal malice
When Gerald Coyne was putting himself forward as a serious political player, I called him out as a disgrace, even though I could have given him a free pass if my motivation was just to weaken Corbyn.
Re: Monday 24th July 2017
Leader of the opposition, not in power, not privy to brexit negotiations, and unlikely to be as long as the bitterites continue their campaign of lies. Hard brexit wont be corbyn's fault, it will be the fault of those who chose to use brexit as a means to attack him, whilst letting the actual government off the hook. Just as they have been doing since June 23rd last year. Just as you have been doing since June 23rd last year, along with the, now conclusively disproved, nonsense of unelectablity.Tubby Isaacs wrote:He's the Leader of the Opposition. Comes with the territory. I think Caroline Flint is much worse, but she's not even shadow paperclips minister.Temulkar wrote:Yet he incessantly focuses on one personality to the exclusion of all else in the situation, so...citizenJA wrote:If Tubby Isaacs is concerned about a thing, it's not likely initiated by personal malice
When Gerald Coyne was putting himself forward as a serious political player, I called him out as a disgrace.
Re: Monday 24th July 2017
Before the election Owen Jones was saying this:Tubby Isaacs wrote:I'd be delighted to be in Schengen, but I don't think it'll be conceded easily or pushed too hard by the EU, for reasons I've said.howsillyofme1 wrote:Norway, so no deal on agriculture and fisheries. No Customs Union and no say in the rules.....Schengen as well. No passporting eitherTubby Isaacs wrote:
I've got a solution. Norway. I can't guarantee it, but I thought I made a case why it would be acceptable to the EU.
How does that first bit work? Did the people in my road think "I don't like him, fancy metropolitan, it's Brexit for me!"
That's Brendon O'Neiil stuff.
Or do you mean Norway but other things as well and some bits left off so essentially not Norway
Being outside the Customs Union but in the EEA means that Norway only has Customs checks for stuff originating outside the EU. That's our best hope of doing right by Ireland, and having a low key border, like Norway and Switzerland do.
The CAP isn't generally considered something it's disastrous not to be in.
https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ank-cheque" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Now Barry Gardiner is saying this:Labour will rip up Theresa May’s Brexit plan but respect the referendum result. The benefits of the single market and the customs union will be on the table.
Because it's Labour's job to only represent the interests of those who voted to leave the EU? Even when they are already well represented by the government who are pursuing the exact same aims? Where did the choice go that Owen Jones so generously offered us before the election?Of course we must try to retain the economic benefits of the single market when we leave the EU: some argue this means we should negotiate to stay inside the European Economic Area (EEA), which would retain the friction-free trade not only in goods but also in services, upon which the bulk of our economy is based.
However, the political price to be paid for such access is correspondingly high, and runs directly counter to the leavers’ four objectives. In the EEA, Britain would be obliged to keep the four freedoms, including the free movement of people, so no regaining control of our borders; align its regulatory regime with the EU’s – so no regaining sovereignty (in fact we would no longer have a seat at the table so there would actually be a reduction of sovereignty); follow ECJ rulings; and still pay into the EU budget.
"Fall seven times, get up eight" - Japanese proverb
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Re: Monday 24th July 2017
Best remember that the country does not divide into 52% Hard Brexiteers and 48% Hard Remainers.
Most folk are somewhere in the middle without a sodding clue what's going on.
Most folk are somewhere in the middle without a sodding clue what's going on.
Re: Monday 24th July 2017
https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... -car-loansBank of England warns over 'spiral of complacency' on household debt
The willingness of consumers to take on more debt to fund their spending helped the economy grow strongly in the six months after the EU referendum, a period when the Bank expected growth to fall sharply.
Over the past year, Brazier [Alex Brazier, the Bank director for financial stability] said, household incomes had grown by just 1.5% but outstanding car loans, credit card balances and personal loans had risen by 10%. (Guardian)
Last edited by PorFavor on Mon 24 Jul, 2017 8:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Monday 24th July 2017
Bitterites? He's getting a free pass on Hard Brexit from all except about 50 MPs, who are mostly in London and going with their constituencies- who just rewarded them with stonking majorities. If there's some rump of Jim Murphy types cynically driving the opposition to Hard Brexit so they can pop up with a Blairite coup, I've missed them.Temulkar wrote:
Leader of the opposition, not in power, not privy to brexit negotiations, and unlikely to be as long as the bitterites continue their campaign of lies. Hard brexit wont be corbyn's fault, it will be the fault of those who chose to use brexit as a means to attack him, whilst letting the actual government off the hook. Just as they have been doing since June 23rd last year. Just as you have been doing since June 23rd last year, along with the, now conclusively disproved, nonsense of unelectablity.
And losing to Theresa May by 57 seats after the worst campaign and manifesto in living memory isn't all that great a result, in my book. You don't conclusively prove somebody is electable by them not being elected.
Campaign of lies, eh? Who's just popped up here then? It's Barry Gardiner. He's Shadow Trade Secretary- I'm not searching out obscure people here.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ain-europe" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Davis, to his credit, has considered paying for access to the Single Market. As far as I can tell, Gardiner thinks UK exports should whizz across the EU without paying in.
The ground is being prepared for Hard Brexit. I'm not happy with that.
Last edited by Tubby Isaacs on Mon 24 Jul, 2017 9:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Monday 24th July 2017
It's somehow gone from "Don't alienate the leavers" to "Winner takes all for the leavers"- if what they're supposed to have voted for is even possible.Willow904 wrote:
Before the election Owen Jones was saying this:
https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ank-cheque" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Now Barry Gardiner is saying this:Labour will rip up Theresa May’s Brexit plan but respect the referendum result. The benefits of the single market and the customs union will be on the table.
Because it's Labour's job to only represent the interests of those who voted to leave the EU? Even when they are already well represented by the government who are pursuing the exact same aims? Where did the choice go that Owen Jones so generously offered us before the election?Of course we must try to retain the economic benefits of the single market when we leave the EU: some argue this means we should negotiate to stay inside the European Economic Area (EEA), which would retain the friction-free trade not only in goods but also in services, upon which the bulk of our economy is based.
However, the political price to be paid for such access is correspondingly high, and runs directly counter to the leavers’ four objectives. In the EEA, Britain would be obliged to keep the four freedoms, including the free movement of people, so no regaining control of our borders; align its regulatory regime with the EU’s – so no regaining sovereignty (in fact we would no longer have a seat at the table so there would actually be a reduction of sovereignty); follow ECJ rulings; and still pay into the EU budget.
Dreadful. From the Shadow Trade Minister, no less.
I wonder if Starmer (who hasn't shown much but at least probably knows the score with Brexit) is going to step down? He's lining up some paid legal work on the side.
Re: Monday 24th July 2017
The edit in my last post was to substitute square brackets for curvy ones.
Re: Monday 24th July 2017
Tubby Isaacs wrote:It's somehow gone from "Don't alienate the leavers" to "Winner takes all for the leavers"- if what they're supposed to have voted for is even possible.Willow904 wrote:
Before the election Owen Jones was saying this:
https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ank-cheque" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Now Barry Gardiner is saying this:Labour will rip up Theresa May’s Brexit plan but respect the referendum result. The benefits of the single market and the customs union will be on the table.
Because it's Labour's job to only represent the interests of those who voted to leave the EU? Even when they are already well represented by the government who are pursuing the exact same aims? Where did the choice go that Owen Jones so generously offered us before the election?Of course we must try to retain the economic benefits of the single market when we leave the EU: some argue this means we should negotiate to stay inside the European Economic Area (EEA), which would retain the friction-free trade not only in goods but also in services, upon which the bulk of our economy is based.
However, the political price to be paid for such access is correspondingly high, and runs directly counter to the leavers’ four objectives. In the EEA, Britain would be obliged to keep the four freedoms, including the free movement of people, so no regaining control of our borders; align its regulatory regime with the EU’s – so no regaining sovereignty (in fact we would no longer have a seat at the table so there would actually be a reduction of sovereignty); follow ECJ rulings; and still pay into the EU budget.
Dreadful. From the Shadow Trade Minister, no less.
I wonder if Starmer (who hasn't shown much but at least probably knows the score with Brexit) is going to step down? He's lining up some paid legal work on the side.
Yes - I saw the Keir Starmer article. My first thought was that it's a strange time for the Shadow "Brexit" Minister to consider taking on extra-curricula activities.
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Re: Monday 24th July 2017
Calling out existence of shadow paper clips Minister as fake news.
Remain vigilant comrades.
Remain vigilant comrades.
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Re: Monday 24th July 2017
It might just be that Starmer likes earning money- William Hague was allowed to do stuff by Cameron when he came back on the frontbench. But the timing is odd, as you say.
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Re: Monday 24th July 2017
Ha ha. I wish it were a job. I'd give it to Flint.HindleA wrote:Calling out existence of shadow paper clips Minister as fake news.
Remain vigilant comrades.
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Re: Monday 24th July 2017
Barring a few I bemoan the vast majority.Twas ever thus,though.
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Re: Monday 24th July 2017
I think if I was sufficiently satisfied I would internally combust or something similar.
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Re: Monday 24th July 2017
Role reversal.
Night Night.
(thinking of you Roger and better half,if you look in)
Night Night.
(thinking of you Roger and better half,if you look in)
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Re: Monday 24th July 2017
Thanks for the update Roger, love, best wishes & fingers crossed for you both xxRogerOThornhill wrote:Thank you.citizenJA wrote:@RogerOThornhill
Please give my love to your family
Quick update for those interested - she was admitted this morning after being given the choice of "go home with anti-sickness drugs and then maybe have to come back to A&E anyway or we'll admit you now". Easy choice. Let them try and work out what's wrong. Went to see her again tonight and she's a bit more comfortable. There was something on the scan that was a slight cause for concern (which also corresponded to a pain she had) so they'll see what they can find.
Re: Monday 24th July 2017
The prospect of the UK's future trading relationship with the US being negotiated by disgraced former Defence Secretary Liam Fox is rising to the top of my personal list of concerns.
Surely some mistake.
Surely some mistake.
One world, like it or not - John Martyn
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Re: Monday 24th July 2017
Ed Conway can reassure you. Chicken (on which there'd likely be a major difference) is 0.2% of UK-US trade. These things take ages for a reason.
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Re: Monday 24th July 2017
Combined (what remains of teeth)brushing and posting.This multitask thngi a pieze of piz
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... popularity" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Housing benefit cuts spark row as Emmanuel Macron's poll ratings fall
Students and opposition party demand French president withdraw cost-cutting measure as he’s accused of targeting poor
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... popularity" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Housing benefit cuts spark row as Emmanuel Macron's poll ratings fall
Students and opposition party demand French president withdraw cost-cutting measure as he’s accused of targeting poor
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Re: Monday 24th July 2017
From one year ago. Can we avoid a return to this crap?
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Re: Monday 24th July 2017
Jerry Hogg
@jerryhogg
One side point from the Charlie Gard case: Mr Justice Francis soundly criticises Tory legal aid policy in this matter. Excellent judgement.
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@jerryhogg
One side point from the Charlie Gard case: Mr Justice Francis soundly criticises Tory legal aid policy in this matter. Excellent judgement.
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Re: Monday 24th July 2017
Cleverly put,of course political and of course he thinks it intentional.
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Re: Monday 24th July 2017
Talking of Charlie Gard, this is astonishing...
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If I'm not here, then I'll be in the library. Or the other library.
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Re: Monday 24th July 2017
Old Panorama on youtube, about the 1995 Tory Leadership. IDS is one of the main Redwood supporters. What a career.
Re: Monday 24th July 2017
@HindleA
Night night.
Night night.
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Re: Monday 24th July 2017
Redwood is actually coming across OK so far, and being attacked on silly "You were loyal last week" stuff. Redwood rightly points out Major resigned as leader, which was a bit of a gamechanger.
IDS' fellow Redwood supporter on the panel is the charming Barry Legg, one of Shirley Porter's chief muckers.
IDS' fellow Redwood supporter on the panel is the charming Barry Legg, one of Shirley Porter's chief muckers.
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Re: Monday 24th July 2017
https://mainlymacro.blogspot.co.uk/2017/07/lexit.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Sleepposting
Sleepposting
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Re: Monday 24th July 2017
Interesting........
Farmers Weekly
@FarmersWeekly
GREAT NEWS FOR FARMERS... Defra @DefraGovUK sec Michael Gove has just guaranteed FREE TRADE deal with #EU after #Brexit #royalwelshshow
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Farmers Weekly @FarmersWeekly 4h4 hours ago
More
Dear readers: Gove comments are accurate on what he told reporters. Can he really guarantee a free trade deal with EU after #Brexit ? NO.
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Farmers Weekly
@FarmersWeekly
GREAT NEWS FOR FARMERS... Defra @DefraGovUK sec Michael Gove has just guaranteed FREE TRADE deal with #EU after #Brexit #royalwelshshow
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Farmers Weekly @FarmersWeekly 4h4 hours ago
More
Dear readers: Gove comments are accurate on what he told reporters. Can he really guarantee a free trade deal with EU after #Brexit ? NO.
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Monday 24th July 2017
Farmers Weekly
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Follow
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Dear readers: Gove comments are accurate on what he told reporters. Can he really guarantee a free trade deal with EU after #Brexit ? NO.
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Re: Monday 24th July 2017
You beat me to it!
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Re: Monday 24th July 2017
Some reaction to Grayling Crossrail 2/abandoned electrification combo.
Transport secretary's backing for Crossrail 2 sparks anger outside London
Transport secretary's backing for Crossrail 2 sparks anger outside London
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Re: Monday 24th July 2017
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... cy-cartoon" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Martin Rowson on the Tories' new energy policy
Martin Rowson on the Tories' new energy policy
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Re: Monday 24th July 2017
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... ail-2-plan" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Monday 24th July 2017
(Do you think they noticed)
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Re: Monday 24th July 2017
Yes I believe the Leeds Manchester route will now not be electrified.HindleA wrote:Some reaction to Grayling Crossrail 2/abandoned electrification combo.
Transport secretary's backing for Crossrail 2 sparks anger outside London
Hey just a couple of backwater towns. Why would we need a good rail link?
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Re: Monday 24th July 2017
I delayed the intended link myself.Ahem.
Re: Monday 24th July 2017
Procrastination is the thief of time.HindleA wrote:I delayed the intended link myself.Ahem.
Re: Monday 24th July 2017
So, without further ado -
Night night.
Night night.
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Re: Monday 24th July 2017
Said boo to a goose today,didn't seem that impressed.
Re: Monday 24th July 2017
The kind of post I'm not sure I can get to the end of, god knows how anyone else will feel.
I'm to repost the Jolyon Maugham quote that gilsey posted earlier this morning.
I think Labour are being increasingly foolish and plain wrong in what they're saying - more below. For here, if The Will Of The People were expressed to restore capital punishment - and it seems less likely now than in the past but it's a reasonable hypothetical - then I would turn my back on a Labour party that said 'Well, that's the result' and then started arguing for the noose over the chair.
Norway - I know how much things can change but everything suggests that this is another dead end. The other members of the EEA won't have us and are likely to have the authority to say so and close the idea down.
Customs Union - our industrial base such as it is has developed over the last quarter century within a system of swift movement of goods and services, of an increasing culture of just in time ordering and an increasing Post-Fordist idea across different suppliers in different countries in specialisation. We're fucked as we stand now if we're outside the Customs Union and this isn't being said enough.
Single Market - this stuff about membership and access is pedantry. There is something about being within the single market which is qualitatively and functionally different (and better) than not being - and the rest of the EU will make sure that wherever on the 'access' scale we end up after this it will be qualitatively and functionally worse for us than being in.
And government - the tories have a minority government and have secured a small working majority. Again, nobody knows, but it is hugely and overwhelmingly unlikely that they will lose that majority in the short or medium term. Unhappy pro-remain conservatives will not risk bringing about a general election which they think they could easily lose. They just won't. The DUP won't take the same risk for a more focused 'Corbyn and McDonnell' reason. They are going to see through the Article 50 process and we will be out. They are probably going to see through the next four to five years.
The miserable as fuck plus side of that is that they will own the catastrophe. Labour should be opposing them. Fuck this nonsense about 52% and electability - when on earth did Corbyn ever care for a second about reshaping policies and ideas in order to chase public opinion and appeal to reluctant labour voters? When? Why now?
Labour should be opposing them. They should have been even louder during the campaign (which I think they did a decent job on, disagreeing with most people from the other direction this time) about all of the specifics that are now arising and they should have done it again during the Article 50 votes. When you stand up and shout about the fact the government don't know what they doing on Euratom - as one example - you shape public opinion. Sovereignty is more important than medical isotopes, yeah? That alone was a reason to vote against the government in January. It should not only be coming to the public's attention now.
I think we're fucked and I think there's nothing we can do about it but they need to be ready to offer something to pick up the pieces and I find what they're saying increasingly dishonest.
I'm to repost the Jolyon Maugham quote that gilsey posted earlier this morning.
There's a good starting point. 'The will of the people' is a dead end if it's all that can be said. There was a referendum and we voted to leave and we're leaving - but it's not impossible that public opinion could radically change when reality becomes more apparent.the Referendum result is that we should have Brexit unless public opinion decisively turns. We must listen. If the electorate comes to think that what it wanted from Brexit it will not get from Brexit it must be heard.
This is the only control on the dishonest conduct of a Referendum that our politics can offer. In a General Election you kick out a Government that breaks its Manifesto promises. But if the sanctity of a Referendum result survives both the lies told to deliver it and a public coming to understand it had been misled we have no functioning democracy at all.
I think Labour are being increasingly foolish and plain wrong in what they're saying - more below. For here, if The Will Of The People were expressed to restore capital punishment - and it seems less likely now than in the past but it's a reasonable hypothetical - then I would turn my back on a Labour party that said 'Well, that's the result' and then started arguing for the noose over the chair.
Norway - I know how much things can change but everything suggests that this is another dead end. The other members of the EEA won't have us and are likely to have the authority to say so and close the idea down.
Customs Union - our industrial base such as it is has developed over the last quarter century within a system of swift movement of goods and services, of an increasing culture of just in time ordering and an increasing Post-Fordist idea across different suppliers in different countries in specialisation. We're fucked as we stand now if we're outside the Customs Union and this isn't being said enough.
Single Market - this stuff about membership and access is pedantry. There is something about being within the single market which is qualitatively and functionally different (and better) than not being - and the rest of the EU will make sure that wherever on the 'access' scale we end up after this it will be qualitatively and functionally worse for us than being in.
And government - the tories have a minority government and have secured a small working majority. Again, nobody knows, but it is hugely and overwhelmingly unlikely that they will lose that majority in the short or medium term. Unhappy pro-remain conservatives will not risk bringing about a general election which they think they could easily lose. They just won't. The DUP won't take the same risk for a more focused 'Corbyn and McDonnell' reason. They are going to see through the Article 50 process and we will be out. They are probably going to see through the next four to five years.
The miserable as fuck plus side of that is that they will own the catastrophe. Labour should be opposing them. Fuck this nonsense about 52% and electability - when on earth did Corbyn ever care for a second about reshaping policies and ideas in order to chase public opinion and appeal to reluctant labour voters? When? Why now?
Labour should be opposing them. They should have been even louder during the campaign (which I think they did a decent job on, disagreeing with most people from the other direction this time) about all of the specifics that are now arising and they should have done it again during the Article 50 votes. When you stand up and shout about the fact the government don't know what they doing on Euratom - as one example - you shape public opinion. Sovereignty is more important than medical isotopes, yeah? That alone was a reason to vote against the government in January. It should not only be coming to the public's attention now.
I think we're fucked and I think there's nothing we can do about it but they need to be ready to offer something to pick up the pieces and I find what they're saying increasingly dishonest.
I still believe in a town called Hope
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Re: Monday 24th July 2017
@Adam
Great post. iI don't agree with some of your analysis, but thanks for acknowledging there are other viewpoints and offering opportunity for debate.
I still think you misunderstand Corbyn. But I don't know the guy and the misunderstanding may be mine. I think Labour are ready to oppose, but there is a democratic space for that, called the House of Commons. It's not his fault that May has wasted six months. If she'd called an emergency session now to debate Brexit, Corbyn would have been there.
My plea is to be patient and wait for Parliament to return. Labour have their six tests. If Corbyn doesn't apply them, he will lose my support.
But IMHO he is right not to have this debate on the silly season sofa.
Great post. iI don't agree with some of your analysis, but thanks for acknowledging there are other viewpoints and offering opportunity for debate.
I still think you misunderstand Corbyn. But I don't know the guy and the misunderstanding may be mine. I think Labour are ready to oppose, but there is a democratic space for that, called the House of Commons. It's not his fault that May has wasted six months. If she'd called an emergency session now to debate Brexit, Corbyn would have been there.
My plea is to be patient and wait for Parliament to return. Labour have their six tests. If Corbyn doesn't apply them, he will lose my support.
But IMHO he is right not to have this debate on the silly season sofa.