Tuesday 14th November 2017
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Tuesday 14th November 2017
Morning all.
Re: Tuesday 14th November 2017
Good morfternoon.
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Re: Tuesday 14th November 2017
As foretold by Anatoly yesterday, it seems this morning that it's all Russia's fault.
Makes a change from it being all Labour's fault I suppose....
Good Morning
Makes a change from it being all Labour's fault I suppose....
Good Morning
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Re: Tuesday 14th November 2017
Morning
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyl ... d-cheating" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Double letter flaw: champion Scrabble player banned amid cheating furore
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Double letter flaw: champion Scrabble player banned amid cheating furore
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Re: Tuesday 14th November 2017
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New study will investigate effectiveness of home improvements in helping older people stay in their own home
New study will investigate effectiveness of home improvements in helping older people stay in their own home
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Re: Tuesday 14th November 2017
https://www.mssociety.org.uk/ms-news/20 ... M7202_0193" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Younger people with MS stuck in care homes for older people
Younger people with MS stuck in care homes for older people
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Re: Tuesday 14th November 2017
CPI stays at 3%
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https://www.gov.uk/government/statistic ... n-oct-2017" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Last edited by HindleA on Tue 14 Nov, 2017 9:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Tuesday 14th November 2017
Puts everything else into perspective, doesn't it? No wonder we've got problems when there are bounders like this on the loose.HindleA wrote:Morning
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Re: Tuesday 14th November 2017
Morning.
I see she's showing off her customary acuity when it comes to the intersection of politics and the internet:
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I see she's showing off her customary acuity when it comes to the intersection of politics and the internet:
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Re: Tuesday 14th November 2017
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UK House Price Index: data downloads September 2017
UK House Price Index: data downloads September 2017
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Re: Tuesday 14th November 2017
Because.... unicorns?NonOxCol wrote:Morning.
I see she's showing off her customary acuity when it comes to the intersection of politics and the internet:
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Re: Tuesday 14th November 2017
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2 ... ona-millar" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
academy-isle-of-wight-school-fiona-millar
One for Roger (and hoping Mrs O'T is OK)
academy-isle-of-wight-school-fiona-millar
One for Roger (and hoping Mrs O'T is OK)
Re: Tuesday 14th November 2017
The Labour MP Yvette Cooper has tabled a new amendment to the EU withdrawal bill removing the government amendment setting 11pm on 29 March 2019 as the time when the UK will leave the EU.
Jack Maidment
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Top: David Davis wants to set date of Brexit in law for 11pm March 29, 2019.
Bottom: Yvette Cooper wants to prevent that from happening and instead link the date of Brexit to when MPs have actually voted on a final Brexit deal.
Key battle. (Politics Live, Guardian)
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Re: Tuesday 14th November 2017
Thanks for the story - and yes, she's fine. I've been in school for an early meeting which went on a bit...PaulfromYorkshire wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/education/2 ... ona-millar
academy-isle-of-wight-school-fiona-millar
One for Roger (and hoping Mrs O'T is OK)
I remember seeing the Deputy Director for Education at Hampshire before the Select Committee and thought he was very impressive - they had been asked by the DfE to support the IoW even back then.
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Re: Tuesday 14th November 2017
This was pushing the Rees-Mogg speech that's happening right now. Not the thing for a government department to be pushing...especially as it criticises the Treasury.
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Re: Tuesday 14th November 2017
The line up of 'Economists for Free Trade' is quite illuminating!RogerOThornhill wrote:This was pushing the Rees-Mogg speech that's happening right now. Not the thing for a government department to be pushing...especially as it criticises the Treasury.
http://www.economistsforfreetrade.com/who-we-are/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Tuesday 14th November 2017
Imagine your defining characteristic being 'Former Special Adviser to Norman Lamont'!
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Re: Tuesday 14th November 2017
I forget who said it but it was pointed out that Minford hadn't produced a single academic paper for over 30 years. For an academic that is...odd.
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Re: Tuesday 14th November 2017
And in that time we went into recession and unemployment went back over 3m.PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Imagine your defining characteristic being 'Former Special Adviser to Norman Lamont'!
I'd have kept quiet about that link if I was him.
If I'm not here, then I'll be in the library. Or the other library.
Re: Tuesday 14th November 2017
Apparently Minford (for it is he) was also on Pienaar's Politics Sunday. BBC evidently learnt sod all from the widespread criticism of the way they covered his previous intervention...
Re: Tuesday 14th November 2017
Including matinée idol Liam Halligan. (That photo' was lifted from a 1970s edition of "The Stage", surely?)
Re: Tuesday 14th November 2017
Tory policy chief warns of 'very real prospect' Brexit could lead to national decline
Rowena Mason
Rowena Mason
George Freeman, Tory MP and chair of the Conservative Policy Forum, has issued a warning that the UK could become “an old people’s home that can’t pay for itself” with excessive debts and young people fleeing the country, unless it embarks on serious economic renewal. (Politics Live, Guardian)
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Re: Tuesday 14th November 2017
PorFavor wrote:The Labour MP Yvette Cooper has tabled a new amendment to the EU withdrawal bill removing the government amendment setting 11pm on 29 March 2019 as the time when the UK will leave the EU.
Jack Maidment
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@jrmaidment
Top: David Davis wants to set date of Brexit in law for 11pm March 29, 2019.
Bottom: Yvette Cooper wants to prevent that from happening and instead link the date of Brexit to when MPs have actually voted on a final Brexit deal.
Key battle. (Politics Live, Guardian)
Possibly, among stiff opposition, the most stupid amendment tabled.
Brexit date is fixed by EU law, not by the UK Parliament. The point of the Bill as it stands is to allow the S of S to make the two the same.
That MPs like Cooper clearly do not understand this at all is embarrassing.
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Re: Tuesday 14th November 2017
Did you expect anything else?NonOxCol wrote:Apparently Minford (for it is he) was also on Pienaar's Politics Sunday. BBC evidently learnt sod all from the widespread criticism of the way they covered his previous intervention...
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Re: Tuesday 14th November 2017
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/bl ... 06ef71bb50" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;SpinningHugo wrote:PorFavor wrote:The Labour MP Yvette Cooper has tabled a new amendment to the EU withdrawal bill removing the government amendment setting 11pm on 29 March 2019 as the time when the UK will leave the EU.
Jack Maidment
✔
@jrmaidment
Top: David Davis wants to set date of Brexit in law for 11pm March 29, 2019.
Bottom: Yvette Cooper wants to prevent that from happening and instead link the date of Brexit to when MPs have actually voted on a final Brexit deal.
Key battle. (Politics Live, Guardian)
Possibly, among stiff opposition, the most stupid amendment tabled.
Brexit date is fixed by EU law, not by the UK Parliament. The point of the Bill as it stands is to allow the S of S to make the two the same.
That MPs like Cooper clearly do not understand this at all is embarrassing.
But Soubry said that what MPs were really angry about yesterday was the proposal, announced by Theresa May in a Telegraph article on Friday, to insert a clause into the bill saying the UK has to leave the EU on 29 March 2019. That would prevent the UK and the EU from being able to extend the article 50 process if the talks over-ran and extra time were needed.
Re: Tuesday 14th November 2017
If the UK and EU do absolutely nothing between now and then, the article 50 period will run out and we will be, de facto, out of the EU at the end of March 2019. And we will need the withdrawal bill to have been implemented at that time in order to avoid chaos.SpinningHugo wrote:PorFavor wrote:The Labour MP Yvette Cooper has tabled a new amendment to the EU withdrawal bill removing the government amendment setting 11pm on 29 March 2019 as the time when the UK will leave the EU.
Jack Maidment
✔
@jrmaidment
Top: David Davis wants to set date of Brexit in law for 11pm March 29, 2019.
Bottom: Yvette Cooper wants to prevent that from happening and instead link the date of Brexit to when MPs have actually voted on a final Brexit deal.
Key battle. (Politics Live, Guardian)
Possibly, among stiff opposition, the most stupid amendment tabled.
Brexit date is fixed by EU law, not by the UK Parliament. The point of the Bill as it stands is to allow the S of S to make the two the same.
That MPs like Cooper clearly do not understand this at all is embarrassing.
What happens, however, if the UK and the EU mutually agree to extend the article 50 process? The withdrawal bill will then need to be implemented at that later date, surely?
As long as it is possible for exit day to change, the implementation date of the withdrawal bill should be open to change. If it's not, the "meaningful" vote Parliament has been promised is not very meaningful.
Although there is some debate about whether article 50 is unilaterally revocable, there is no question at all over whether it can be extended by mutual agreement. It can. Therefore there is no reason why parliament should set an exit date in stone now, before negotiations are complete, unless the government is trying to put extra barriers in the path of agreeing an extension (or possibly even a complete revocation).
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Re: Tuesday 14th November 2017
I see tinybgoat beat me to it and that Anna Soubry put it much more succinctly. What she said!
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Re: Tuesday 14th November 2017
I've been meaning to tell you this and now is the time. I love your vocabulary and writing, PorFavor.PorFavor wrote:Puts everything else into perspective, doesn't it? No wonder we've got problems when there are bounders like this on the loose.HindleA wrote:Morning
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Re: Tuesday 14th November 2017
Soubry can talk the talk, not so much evidence of her backing it up with actions thus far.
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Re: Tuesday 14th November 2017
Yes there is. The de jure (not de facto) Brexit date is that set own by EU law. That cannot be varied by the UK Parliament. It isn't in our control, as Cooper et al seem to think. We need the Withdrawal Bill to be in force at the same time as Brexit (as fixed by EU law, not our Parliament)Willow904 wrote:. Therefore there is no reason why parliament should set an exit date in stone now, before negotiations are complete, unless the government is trying to put extra barriers in the path of agreeing an extension (or possibly even a complete revocation).
The government change is silly politically driven symbolism. So their change is to fix "Brexit date" insofar as UK law is concerned bit to give the UK government transitional powers to make that meaningless. It is essentially the same in effect as the original draft.
Just silly symbolism of course.
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Re: Tuesday 14th November 2017
Willow904 wrote:I see tinybgoat beat me to it and that Anna Soubry put it much more succinctly. What she said!
She hasn't read the government's change in full, as it doesn't have that effect. The government retains powers to essentially make "Brexit Day" mean nothing during any transitional period.
It should be remembered that the government has the advantage of having lawyers, who will try to prevent them doing anything really stupid.
Re: Tuesday 14th November 2017
The withdrawal bill delays suggest a fair bit of behind the scenes pressure from the Tory Europhiles, which is how you would expect this to play out, rather than an overt rebellion. We won't really know how many rebels there are and how serious they are until we see the final form of the withdrawal bill. Though admittedly, I'm not expecting much. Non-Tories really should have voted for Ed in 2015 when they had the chance. It was a pivotal election and sadly we chose flush the country down the toilet.
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Re: Tuesday 14th November 2017
I didn't say the UK could change Brexit day, I said the EU could by agreement and there's no need to make that option more difficult by having to repeal or change the withdrawal bill to accommodate it. But that's not the point. By voting on the March 2019 date now, parliament will be giving the government its approval to leave with no deal on that date and if they do we're done, it's over, Tory hard Brexit here we come or whatever it is May wants to do. If, on the other hand, March 2019 is rapidly approaching and we have no deal and no parliament approval for implementation of the withdrawal bill on that date, we have constitutional crisis and parliament could choose to vote no confidence in May, call an election and hopefully elect someone willing to ask the EU for an extension.SpinningHugo wrote:Yes there is. The de jure (not de facto) Brexit date is that set own by EU law. That cannot be varied by the UK Parliament. It isn't in our control, as Cooper et al seem to think. We need the Withdrawal Bill to be in force at the same time as Brexit (as fixed by EU law, not our Parliament)Willow904 wrote:. Therefore there is no reason why parliament should set an exit date in stone now, before negotiations are complete, unless the government is trying to put extra barriers in the path of agreeing an extension (or possibly even a complete revocation).
The government change is silly politically driven symbolism. So their change is to fix "Brexit date" insofar as UK law is concerned bit to give the UK government transitional powers to make that meaningless. It is essentially the same in effect as the original draft.
Just silly symbolism of course.
Parliament is simply doing what it is supposed to do, which is try to hold the government to account. Signing away its rights when it doesn't need to isn't holding the government to account. Remember, some legal experts question whether giving Theresa May permission to invoke article 50 equals Parliament approval to leave the EU. If article 50 is revocable (which hasn't been established one way or another) I'm not convinced permission to invoke article 50 is the same as a parliament vote to leave, but I'm pretty certain if the withdrawal bill goes through with the exit day attached it would be.
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Re: Tuesday 14th November 2017
As I've mentioned before, although other things can be cobbled together for a transition, I've yet to see any evidence that we will have a replacement for Eurotom by March 2019 and as EU membership is necessary to belong to Eurotom (as opposed to other things like the single market that don't require EU membership, whatever Corbyn says) keeping the extension of the article 50 process on the table is simply sensible, regardless of whether you prefer to stay or leave.
The Tories just aren't being sensible about any of this and it's most concerning.
The Tories just aren't being sensible about any of this and it's most concerning.
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Re: Tuesday 14th November 2017
We voted on that already. Article 50 is automatic. We leave in March 2019 with or without a deal.Willow904 wrote:I didn't say the UK could change Brexit day, I said the EU could by agreement and there's no need to make that option more difficult by having to repeal or change the withdrawal bill to accommodate it. But that's not the point. By voting on the March 2019 date now, parliament will be giving the government its approval to leave with no deal on that date and if they do we're done, it's over, Tory hard Brexit here we come or whatever it is May wants to do. If, on the other hand, March 2019 is rapidly approaching and we have no deal and no parliament approval for implementation of the withdrawal bill on that date, we have constitutional crisis and parliament could choose to vote no confidence in May, call an election and hopefully elect someone willing to ask the EU for an extension.SpinningHugo wrote:Yes there is. The de jure (not de facto) Brexit date is that set own by EU law. That cannot be varied by the UK Parliament. It isn't in our control, as Cooper et al seem to think. We need the Withdrawal Bill to be in force at the same time as Brexit (as fixed by EU law, not our Parliament)Willow904 wrote:. Therefore there is no reason why parliament should set an exit date in stone now, before negotiations are complete, unless the government is trying to put extra barriers in the path of agreeing an extension (or possibly even a complete revocation).
The government change is silly politically driven symbolism. So their change is to fix "Brexit date" insofar as UK law is concerned bit to give the UK government transitional powers to make that meaningless. It is essentially the same in effect as the original draft.
Just silly symbolism of course.
Parliament is simply doing what it is supposed to do, which is try to hold the government to account. Signing away its rights when it doesn't need to isn't holding the government to account. Remember, some legal experts question whether giving Theresa May permission to invoke article 50 equals Parliament approval to leave the EU. If article 50 is revocable (which hasn't been established one way or another) I'm not convinced permission to invoke article 50 is the same as a parliament vote to leave, but I'm pretty certain if the withdrawal bill goes through with the exit day attached it would be.
Parliament could vote to try to reverse that, and require the government to revoke, but we'll be leaving come March 2019 with or without a deal if nothing more happens.
"some legal experts question whether giving Theresa May permission to invoke article 50 equals Parliament approval to leave the EU"
Nobody serious thinks that.
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Re: Tuesday 14th November 2017
Tommy Robinson turns philanthropist as he is named charity’s Goodwill Ambassador
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Re: Tuesday 14th November 2017
A lot of truth in this, unfortunately.Willow904 wrote: Non-Tories really should have voted for Ed in 2015 when they had the chance. It was a pivotal election and sadly we chose flush the country down the toilet.
Of course, those within Labour who decided to oppose his leadership literally from the second his victory was declared didn't exactly help.
I wonder if any would have behaved differently if they knew where we would be now?
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Re: Tuesday 14th November 2017
It wasn't the Blairites under the bed what lost it. He just wasn't very good.AnatolyKasparov wrote:A lot of truth in this, unfortunately.Willow904 wrote: Non-Tories really should have voted for Ed in 2015 when they had the chance. It was a pivotal election and sadly we chose flush the country down the toilet.
Of course, those within Labour who decided to oppose his leadership literally from the second his victory was declared didn't exactly help.
I wonder if any would have behaved differently if they knew where we would be now?
I wonder if any of those who voted for him in 2010, when it should have been obvious that he was deeply unsuited to the job of leader of the opposition, regret their decision?
What a sorry long term decline Labour is in. Brown begat Miliband who begat Corbyn. Who next? Burgon?
Re: Tuesday 14th November 2017
Willow904 wrote:As I've mentioned before, although other things can be cobbled together for a transition, I've yet to see any evidence that we will have a replacement for Eurotom by March 2019 and as EU membership is necessary to belong to Eurotom (as opposed to other things like the single market that don't require EU membership, whatever Corbyn says) keeping the extension of the article 50 process on the table is simply sensible, regardless of whether you prefer to stay or leave.
The Tories just aren't being sensible about any of this and it's most concerning.
I'm probably missing something, but re-reading art.50, isn't the 2 year time limit in regards to negotiation period (with possible extension), so that if no deal is agreed by then it becomes the leave date.3. The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.
I can't see anything saying that if an agreement is reached we then have to leave on a certain date, i.e. could the agreement be to leave the EU at a later date, allowing time for other negotiations/infrastructure changes, then followed by a 2 yr transition period, when trade deals could be (theoretically) negotiated.
Re: Tuesday 14th November 2017
Which is where I came in. If nothing happens we leave in March 2019. We won't be ready, however, so sensible people will want to extend article 50, which means leaving that option open, which means opposing Davies' amendment.SpinningHugo wrote:
We voted on that already. Article 50 is automatic. We leave in March 2019 with or without a deal.
Parliament could vote to try to reverse that, and require the government to revoke, but we'll be leaving come March 2019 with or without a deal if nothing more happens.
"some legal experts question whether giving Theresa May permission to invoke article 50 equals Parliament approval to leave the EU"
Nobody serious thinks that.
And as far as legitimacy goes, it's what the public think that counts. Leaving with no exit deal and no withdrawal bill will be highly risky for the Tory party as it is unlikely to go well.
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Re: Tuesday 14th November 2017
Fortunately, despite the rhetoric, the Davies amendment doesn't in fact close off this option.Willow904 wrote:, which means leaving that option open, which means opposing Davies' amendment.
.
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Re: Tuesday 14th November 2017
So would you advocate voting for or against the Davis amendment?SpinningHugo wrote:Fortunately, despite the rhetoric, the Davies amendment doesn't in fact close off this option.Willow904 wrote:, which means leaving that option open, which means opposing Davies' amendment.
.
As you can tell I am still confused
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Re: Tuesday 14th November 2017
Dan RobertsVerified account
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Honda UK telling MPs it imports 2 million components a day from Europe on 350 trucks and holds 1 hours worth of stock. It would take 18 months to put customs admin in place but every 15 minutes of delay would cost £850,000 a hour. That's not including WTO tariffs of 10% and 4.5%.
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@RobertsDan
Honda UK telling MPs it imports 2 million components a day from Europe on 350 trucks and holds 1 hours worth of stock. It would take 18 months to put customs admin in place but every 15 minutes of delay would cost £850,000 a hour. That's not including WTO tariffs of 10% and 4.5%.
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Re: Tuesday 14th November 2017
I think SH is confusing my support for what the opposition are saying and doing in terms of sending a message about what they would ideally like to see happen, with what I think is possible or likely. Voting to leave in March 2019 doesn't send out a message that you think we should try to keep negotiating until we get a decent deal, which is surely Labour's position. If Davies' amendment is meaningless, why is it there? Something doesn't have to be legally meaningful in order to be politically meaningful. Putting a leaving date in law makes things more complicated if you then want to try to extend the process and leave the EU later, surely? (I never said it made it impossible). Or am I missing something? That's all I'm really saying. Plus Labour voting for that leaving date would then be used politically to show they support leaving with no deal, because that's what supporting this amendment suggests, doesn't it? Why would Labour want to support it? That's what I was discussing, I thought, and the likelihood of the Tory rebels actually stepping up. Of course we could still crash out whatever parliament does, now we've triggered article 50, no one's denying that, so I'm not sure what SH means, but maybe that's the point.PaulfromYorkshire wrote:So would you advocate voting for or against the Davis amendment?SpinningHugo wrote:Fortunately, despite the rhetoric, the Davies amendment doesn't in fact close off this option.Willow904 wrote:, which means leaving that option open, which means opposing Davies' amendment.
.
As you can tell I am still confused
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Re: Tuesday 14th November 2017
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:So would you advocate voting for or against the Davis amendment?SpinningHugo wrote:Fortunately, despite the rhetoric, the Davies amendment doesn't in fact close off this option.Willow904 wrote:, which means leaving that option open, which means opposing Davies' amendment.
.
As you can tell I am still confused
Against. But it won't do any substantive harm fortunately as although it fixes the Brexit date, it simultaneously denudes that of importance,
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Re: Tuesday 14th November 2017
Labour's GE vote share in June was its best since 2001, actual votes cast highest since the now near mythical 1997.SpinningHugo wrote:
What a sorry long term decline Labour is in. Brown begat Miliband who begat Corbyn. Who next? Burgon?
No doubt you would have preferred it to go the way of PASOK, or PvDA, or Irish Labour.
And no, Burgon won't be our next leader
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Re: Tuesday 14th November 2017
You said that about Corbyn.AnatolyKasparov wrote:
And no, Burgon won't be our next leader
Decline isn't just measured in votes. Labour is in tragic, heart-rending decline even if it wins the next election.
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Re: Tuesday 14th November 2017
Whatever.
I think the Labour party is more intellectually lively and interesting than it has been since the 1990s.
Discussion of all sorts of important issues currently going on that were closed off in the elitist, politically and organisationally stagnant later Blair years.
I think the Labour party is more intellectually lively and interesting than it has been since the 1990s.
Discussion of all sorts of important issues currently going on that were closed off in the elitist, politically and organisationally stagnant later Blair years.
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Re: Tuesday 14th November 2017
The Labour MP Yvette Cooper has just given a powerful speech supporting her amendment. (See 10.36am.) In his speech the Brexit minister Steve Baker said that Cooper’s amendment would bring chaos. Cooper opened by saying the government was doing perfectly well itself introducing chaos. (Politics Live, Guardian)
Last edited by PorFavor on Tue 14 Nov, 2017 5:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Tuesday 14th November 2017
Of course, he's not a lawyer . . .Grieve describes Brexit as 'painful process of national self-mutilation'
Dominic Grieve, the Conservative former attorney general, is speaking now.
He says he views Brexit as a “great and historic error”.
He says he understands the need for parliament to implement the referendum result. But he cannot suspend his judgment, he says, when he considers the “extraordinary painful process of national self-mutilation I’m required to facilitate”.
He says the government’s amendment is “mad”, as he will explain in a moment.
(Politics Live, Guardian - my emphasis)