Friday 8th December 2017

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refitman
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Friday 8th December 2017

Post by refitman »

Morning all.
frog222
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Re: Friday 8th December 2017

Post by frog222 »

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/sites/b ... report.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Morning !
PaulfromYorkshire
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Re: Friday 8th December 2017

Post by PaulfromYorkshire »

Morning!

So, as expected, May has found so solutions to the Irish border problem, nor even proposes any.

Just a fudge. A form of wording.
frog222
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Re: Friday 8th December 2017

Post by frog222 »

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Morning!

So, as expected, May has found so solutions to the Irish border problem, nor even proposes any.

Just a fudge. A form of wording.
Fudge agreed .
48 The United Kingdom remains committed to protecting North-South cooperation and to its guarantee of avoiding a hard border. Any future arrangements must be compatible with these overarching requirements. The United Kingdom’s intention is to achieve these objectives through the overall EU-UK relationship. Should this not be possible, the United Kingdom will propose specific solutions to address the unique circumstances of the island of Ireland. In the absence of agreed solutions, the United Kingdom will maintain full alignment with those rules of the Internal Market and the Customs Union which, now or in the future, support North-South cooperation, the all- island economy and the protection of the 1998 Agreement.

==49. The United Kingdom remains committed to protecting North-South cooperation and to its GUARANTEE OF AVOIDING A HARD BORDER. Any future arrangements must be compatible with these overarching requirements. The United Kingdom's intention is to achieve these objectives through the overall EU-UK relationship. Should this not be possible, the United Kingdom will propose specific solutions to address the unique circumstances of the island of Ireland. In the absence of agreed solutions, the United Kingdom will maintain full alignment with those rules of the Internal Market and the Customs Union which, now or in the future, support North-South cooperation, the allisland economy and the protection of the 1998 Agreement.==

50 In the absence of agreed solutions, as set out in the previous paragraph, the United Kingdom will ensure that no new regulatory barriers develop between Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom, unless, consistent with the 1998 Agreement, the Northern Ireland Executive and Assembly agree that distinct arrangements are appropriate for Northern Ireland. In all circumstances, the United Kingdom will continue to ensure the same unfettered access for Northern Ireland’s businesses to the whole of the United Kingdom internal market.
Edited to add paras 48 and 50 BINO is a new one to me !
Last edited by frog222 on Fri 08 Dec, 2017 7:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
HindleA
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Re: Friday 8th December 2017

Post by HindleA »

Morning


https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... -landlords" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Four in 10 right-to-buy homes are now owned by private landlords

40.2% of housing stock sold by councils to then tenants are now rented out, rising to 70.9% in Milton Keynes, which it dubs the “right-to-buy-to-let capital” of England.

Seven councils – Milton Keynes, Bolsover, Brighton & Hove, Canterbury, Cheshire West and Chester, Stevenage, and Nuneaton & Bedworth – have letting levels of more than 50% among former council-owned homes.
tinybgoat
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Re: Friday 8th December 2017

Post by tinybgoat »

HindleA wrote:Morning


https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... -landlords" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Four in 10 right-to-buy homes are now owned by private landlords

40.2% of housing stock sold by councils to then tenants are now rented out, rising to 70.9% in Milton Keynes, which it dubs the “right-to-buy-to-let capital” of England.

Seven councils – Milton Keynes, Bolsover, Brighton & Hove, Canterbury, Cheshire West and Chester, Stevenage, and Nuneaton & Bedworth – have letting levels of more than 50% among former council-owned homes.
“right-to-buy-to-let capital” or 'The armpit of Bucks' as my Aunt used to lovingly call it.
edit: probably unfair, having checked map of Bucks, it doesn't look much like an arm, possibly it was a reference to the '
Bletchley smell' due to the brickworks.
PaulfromYorkshire
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Re: Friday 8th December 2017

Post by PaulfromYorkshire »

frog222 wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Morning!

So, as expected, May has found so solutions to the Irish border problem, nor even proposes any.

Just a fudge. A form of wording.
Fudge agreed .
48 The United Kingdom remains committed to protecting North-South cooperation and to its guarantee of avoiding a hard border. Any future arrangements must be compatible with these overarching requirements. The United Kingdom’s intention is to achieve these objectives through the overall EU-UK relationship. Should this not be possible, the United Kingdom will propose specific solutions to address the unique circumstances of the island of Ireland. In the absence of agreed solutions, the United Kingdom will maintain full alignment with those rules of the Internal Market and the Customs Union which, now or in the future, support North-South cooperation, the all- island economy and the protection of the 1998 Agreement.

==49. The United Kingdom remains committed to protecting North-South cooperation and to its GUARANTEE OF AVOIDING A HARD BORDER. Any future arrangements must be compatible with these overarching requirements. The United Kingdom's intention is to achieve these objectives through the overall EU-UK relationship. Should this not be possible, the United Kingdom will propose specific solutions to address the unique circumstances of the island of Ireland. In the absence of agreed solutions, the United Kingdom will maintain full alignment with those rules of the Internal Market and the Customs Union which, now or in the future, support North-South cooperation, the allisland economy and the protection of the 1998 Agreement.==

50 In the absence of agreed solutions, as set out in the previous paragraph, the United Kingdom will ensure that no new regulatory barriers develop between Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom, unless, consistent with the 1998 Agreement, the Northern Ireland Executive and Assembly agree that distinct arrangements are appropriate for Northern Ireland. In all circumstances, the United Kingdom will continue to ensure the same unfettered access for Northern Ireland’s businesses to the whole of the United Kingdom internal market.
Edited to add paras 48 and 50 BINO is a new one to me !
Thanks for posting the official blurb. Will the Hard Brexit brigade actually understand / acknowledge what this means?
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Re: Friday 8th December 2017

Post by PaulfromYorkshire »

George Eaton‏Verified account
@georgeeaton
2m2 minutes ago
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The UK has made major concessions to the EU merely to begin negotiating a trade deal that will be far inferior to its current membership.
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Re: Friday 8th December 2017

Post by PaulfromYorkshire »

Keir Starmer‏Verified account
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Good that Brexit talks can move on. Need to know political price of compromise. Need to agree transitional arrangements on same terms ASAP.
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Re: Friday 8th December 2017

Post by PaulfromYorkshire »

I think Eaton and Starmer are saying the same thing here, though speaking to different audiences!
PorFavor
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Re: Friday 8th December 2017

Post by PorFavor »

Good morfternoon.
tinybgoat
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Re: Friday 8th December 2017

Post by tinybgoat »

5. Under the caveat that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed, the joint commitments set out below in this joint report shall be reflected in the Withdrawal Agreement in full detail. This does not prejudge any adaptations that might be appropriate in case transitional arrangements were to be agreed in the second phase of the negotiations, and is without prejudice to discussions on the framework of the future relationship.
Does this actually mean something, or does it just keep Brexiteers happy & replace 'brexit means brexit' for the next 12 months?
edited: for layout.
Last edited by tinybgoat on Fri 08 Dec, 2017 9:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
frog222
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Re: Friday 8th December 2017

Post by frog222 »

"" @wesstreeting

Relieved we're onto phase two, but notice people with opposing viewpoints on longer-term relationship with EU are cheering the same section of text. Creative ambiguity means big battles still ahead.
8:55 AM - Dec 8, 2017 ""

09:08
Anushka Asthana
Lots of Labour politicians are making the argument that this morning’s deal still leaves us with the same difficulties in the second phase - and they believe it is now more likely we remain within the EU economic structures. One MP, Stephen Doughty, tells me:

The only way that full alignment can be achieved is remaining in the Customs Union and Single Market. It has been clear all along that you can’t have your cake and eat it in these negotiations. This is where reality bites. Perhaps now the absurdity of a no deal scenario and crashing out will finally be taken of the table by the Brextremists.
Gove on Toady , I had the impression he's changed tack ?

Down to a fresh breeze, time to unplug self from the internet and go outside .
PorFavor
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Re: Friday 8th December 2017

Post by PorFavor »

Good morfternoon.

Have we, basically, got the Irish soft\hard question still to come (given that "nothing is agreed until everything is agreed")? Or has that changed? I'm as confused as I ever was.
PaulfromYorkshire
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Re: Friday 8th December 2017

Post by PaulfromYorkshire »

PorFavor wrote:Good morfternoon.

Have we, basically, got the Irish soft\hard question still to come (given that "nothing is agreed until everything is agreed")? Or has that changed? I'm as confused as I ever was.
That's what I understand.

BUT, given nobody at all has come close to even a part solution to the problem (unless I'm missing something) the reality is that as long as this agreement remains in force Hard Brexit is de facto ruled out.

So, the question seems to be how long will it take for the Hard Brexiteers to realise this and, in their rage, to attempt to topple May?
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Willow904
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Re: Friday 8th December 2017

Post by Willow904 »

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
PorFavor wrote:Good morfternoon.

Have we, basically, got the Irish soft\hard question still to come (given that "nothing is agreed until everything is agreed")? Or has that changed? I'm as confused as I ever was.
That's what I understand.

BUT, given nobody at all has come close to even a part solution to the problem (unless I'm missing something) the reality is that as long as this agreement remains in force Hard Brexit is de facto ruled out.

So, the question seems to be how long will it take for the Hard Brexiteers to realise this and, in their rage, to attempt to topple May?
Depends if they truly believe in their "technology and fairy tales" border solution or not. Or if they think they can still get an Irish Sea border past the DUP. Both of which you would have to be very stupid to believe.

Of course there is a third way out of the soft Brexit problem this agreement presents for hard Brexiters, and that's the "no deal" scenario, which I think some of them actually actively want. Because this agreement is based on a final exit agreement being agreed and ratified by both sides so if no exit agreement is finalized, the ticking article 50 clock will take us out automatically on the hardest possible terms and a hard border will happen whether Ireland agrees or not. I would hope Parliament would be able to come together and demand article 50 is revoked or extended if there is no agreement by this time next year, however, and I think Jeremy Hunt's threat that hard Brexiters had to get behind Theresa May or face Brexit being called off underlined for them the fact that when push comes to shove the remain MPs have a majority and so if they make things too difficult for May she has the numbers to call it off. At least that's my reading of the situation.

Of course a lot of this isn't strategy as such, but more a case of procrastination on both sides. This ideological fault line has been dogging the Tory party, unresolved, for some considerable time and neither side is in a hurry to face it head on because whichever side wins, the Tory party loses. It seems almost impossible now for Europe not to finally destroy them.
"Fall seven times, get up eight" - Japanese proverb
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Re: Friday 8th December 2017

Post by PaulfromYorkshire »

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... rexit-deal" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

not-much-remain-theresa-may-red-lines-brexit-deal
gilsey
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Re: Friday 8th December 2017

Post by gilsey »

Reading through Politics Live, I feel as if I've been required to believe six impossible things before breakfast.

We're supposed to congratulate May for succeeding in kicking the can down the road, apparently.

If the tory 'bastards' are going to cave in to this 'regulatory alignment', what the hell was it all for?
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citizenJA
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Re: Friday 8th December 2017

Post by citizenJA »

frog222 wrote:---
Down to a fresh breeze, time to unplug self from the internet and go outside .
(cJA edit)

Wise choice
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citizenJA
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Re: Friday 8th December 2017

Post by citizenJA »

Good-morning, everyone
PaulfromYorkshire
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Re: Friday 8th December 2017

Post by PaulfromYorkshire »

Lib Dems picked up a council seat from Con in Devon last night.

And a reason to be cheerful about politics - there are still some!

Britain Elects‏
@britainelects
11h11 hours ago
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Enfield Highway (Enfield) result:

LAB: 69.8% (+23.1)
CON: 26.7% (+7.4)
GRN: 3.4% (-6.0)

No UKIP (-17.8) and BNP (-6.7) as prev.

My emphasis - that's the part I'm most cheerful about ;-)
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citizenJA
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Re: Friday 8th December 2017

Post by citizenJA »

gilsey wrote:Reading through Politics Live, I feel as if I've been required to believe six impossible things before breakfast.

We're supposed to congratulate May for succeeding in kicking the can down the road, apparently.

If the tory 'bastards' are going to cave in to this 'regulatory alignment', what the hell was it all for?
(cJA bold)

Ego gratification
PaulfromYorkshire
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Re: Friday 8th December 2017

Post by PaulfromYorkshire »

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... final-deal" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

tories-pointless-brexit-theatrics-hard-part-final-deal
AnatolyKasparov
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Re: Friday 8th December 2017

Post by AnatolyKasparov »

Basically this is about Brexiteers taking 18 months to recognise realities that should have been evident the day after the referendum.

Better late than never, I suppose.......
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tinybgoat
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Re: Friday 8th December 2017

Post by tinybgoat »

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Basically this is about Brexiteers taking 18 months to recognise realities that should have been evident the day after the referendum.

Better late than never, I suppose.......
When you put it like that, I suppose just 18 months is quite an achievement.
(though not convinced they've really accepted them, yet)
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Re: Friday 8th December 2017

Post by AnatolyKasparov »

Some of them haven't, indeed a significant number never will. There is certainly room for "stabbed in the back" mythology to grow here.
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Re: Friday 8th December 2017

Post by PorFavor »

The Ulster Unionists have made life a little easier for their rivals in the DUP in terms of ‘selling’ the latest deal on Brexit and the Irish border.

Veteran Ulster Unionist (UUP) MEP Jim Nicholson welcomed the latest arrangement but warned that pro-union people across the UK would not accept any measures on trade that would disconnect Northern Ireland from Britain. (Politics Live, Guardian)
Oh - that's simple to solve. All you need to do is disconnect the Irish Republic from Northern Ireland.

What?
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AngryAsWell
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Re: Friday 8th December 2017

Post by AngryAsWell »

Paul Weymouth #FBPE‏
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Sky News: Leave Means Leave just had to acknowledge that a latest opinion poll suggests the “will of the people” is to have a second Referendum.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Tubby Isaacs
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Re: Friday 8th December 2017

Post by Tubby Isaacs »

Well, there's a deal then.

I wasn't sure it would happen, but it has and I think Labour are now in a difficult position. They've known the realities for yonks, and haven't told people. They could be sitting here today saying "we told you so".

Turns out the Tories this week weren't "making a mistake" from which they shouldn't be interrupted. They were being sensible. And Labour will have to vote for May's "hard won" deal.
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citizenJA
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Re: Friday 8th December 2017

Post by citizenJA »

PorFavor wrote:Good morfternoon.

Have we, basically, got the Irish soft\hard question still to come (given that "nothing is agreed until everything is agreed")? Or has that changed? I'm as confused as I ever was.
I've read through the text and some articles elsewhere.
The new text offers guarantees that Northern Ireland will have regulatory alignment with the Republic, but that in such an event no obstacles to trade will emerge between Northern Ireland and the UK. Earlier this week, Davis had suggested this would be undertaken by continued alignment of the whole of the UK with the EU.
---
“In the absence of agreed solutions, the United Kingdom will maintain full alignment with those rules of the internal market and the customs union which, now or in the future, support north-south cooperation, the all-island economy and the protection of the 1998 agreement ...
---
On citizens’ rights, both sides said the agreement would ensure that EU nationals in the UK would retain the same rights after Brexit as they enjoyed before.

May said the agreement on the estimated €60bn (£52bn) financial settlement was “fair to the British taxpayer” but would ensure the UK could spend more money on its own priorities such a “housing, schools and the NHS”.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... o-brussels" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
May and her Tory government have erased their red lines. I'm happy with that but then I supported remaining in the EU.
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Re: Friday 8th December 2017

Post by AnatolyKasparov »

Tubby Isaacs wrote:Well, there's a deal then.

I wasn't sure it would happen, but it has and I think Labour are now in a difficult position. They've known the realities for yonks, and haven't told people. They could be sitting here today saying "we told you so".

Turns out the Tories this week weren't "making a mistake" from which they shouldn't be interrupted. They were being sensible. And Labour will have to vote for May's "hard won" deal.
I think this is a very partial and unbalanced view, Labour have been advocating something along these lines for months.

Not forgetting that we are still a long way from a final agreement despite the spin, still lots of room for the usual suspects to make mischief. And they will.
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Re: Friday 8th December 2017

Post by PaulfromYorkshire »

The counter to our joy that Hard Brexit may be slipping away is that, sadly, a political space has just opened up that will I fear be occupied by Nigel Farage :roll:
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Re: Friday 8th December 2017

Post by AnatolyKasparov »

Hmmm, who knows? But any such grouping now probably *will* hurt the Tories most of all, so silver linings......
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Re: Friday 8th December 2017

Post by Tubby Isaacs »

The mischief makers needed Cabinet resignations by this stage. They'll likely be happy with May's head, to line up on pikes with the other departed traitors, like Ted Heath, John Major, Tony Blair etc. Did they ever want the responsibility anyway? Euroscepticism is "country's going to the dogs" moaning into pints stuff.

Starmer's twitter feed doesn't exactly proclaim "We told you so", does it?
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Re: Friday 8th December 2017

Post by Tubby Isaacs »

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:The counter to our joy that Hard Brexit may be slipping away is that, sadly, a political space has just opened up that will I fear be occupied by Nigel Farage :roll:
He's gone full Trump, not even trying to hide it, he's going for the media career.
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Re: Friday 8th December 2017

Post by Tubby Isaacs »

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Lib Dems picked up a council seat from Con in Devon last night.

And a reason to be cheerful about politics - there are still some!

Britain Elects‏
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11h11 hours ago
More
Enfield Highway (Enfield) result:

LAB: 69.8% (+23.1)
CON: 26.7% (+7.4)
GRN: 3.4% (-6.0)

No UKIP (-17.8) and BNP (-6.7) as prev.

My emphasis - that's the part I'm most cheerful about ;-)
I'm amazed UKIP and BNP got that many in 2014. Already in 2011, only 38% white British. Good news that not even worth standing this time.
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Re: Friday 8th December 2017

Post by PaulfromYorkshire »

BRUSSELS (Reuters) - Britain remaining in the EU single market is not one of the possible solutions to the problem of avoiding a hard border between Ireland and Northern Ireland, the EU’s chief Brexit negotiator said on Friday.

“The British government has confirmed that it wishes also to leave the single market and the customs union, which is not obligatory,” Barnier said after the Commission concluded that the first phase of Brexit negotiations had made sufficient progress to allow talks to begin on future EU-UK relations.

“What it says in the text... is that either option 1, the future relationship which we now have to build with the UK will enable us to settle all or part of the issues to ensure there is no hard border on the island of Ireland, or, option 2, something else which will have to be found.”
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Re: Friday 8th December 2017

Post by PaulfromYorkshire »

I'm mystified.
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Re: Friday 8th December 2017

Post by Tubby Isaacs »

Jean-Claude Juncker
@JunckerEU
It's done. @EU_Commission and #Japan finalised negotiations of the Economic Partnership Agreement between the #EU and Japan today - a powerful political signal to the world, keeping the flag of free and fair trade high:
Global Britain.
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Re: Friday 8th December 2017

Post by PorFavor »

EU officials have made it clear that Theresa May’s suggestion that the transition period is in reality an implementation period, during which future arrangements such as customs checks could be introduced, is incorrect.

There will be a “cliff edge” at the end of the transition period unless a future trade deal is in place by then, a senior EU official said.”

There will still be in the absence of the agreement a sort of cliff edge at the end of the transition period”, the source said (Politics Live, Guardian)
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Re: Friday 8th December 2017

Post by AnatolyKasparov »

PorFavor wrote:
EU officials have made it clear that Theresa May’s suggestion that the transition period is in reality an implementation period, during which future arrangements such as customs checks could be introduced, is incorrect.

There will be a “cliff edge” at the end of the transition period unless a future trade deal is in place by then, a senior EU official said.”

There will still be in the absence of the agreement a sort of cliff edge at the end of the transition period”, the source said (Politics Live, Guardian)
Ah right, any comments Tubby?
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Tubby Isaacs
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Re: Friday 8th December 2017

Post by Tubby Isaacs »

Yeah. Say what's needed to be done to avoid the cliff. Say it last week.

This isn't a bad response to where we are, to be fair.
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Eighteen months on from the referendum, @Theresa_May has scraped through phase one. Tory chaos and posturing has caused damaging delay and risked serious harm to our economy. We need a much stronger and more constructive approach in crucial phase two.
It's already harmed the economy though.
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Re: Friday 8th December 2017

Post by PorFavor »

'No transition deal for Gibraltar'
Daniel Boffey

Daniel Boffey

As it stands, Gibraltar will not enjoy the cushion a transition period, EU officials confirmed, and will drop out of the Single Market and the Customs Union when the UK leaves the bloc on 29 March 2019.

EU officials confirmed the Guardian’s story last month that an arrangement over the future of the rock needs to be struck between Spain and the UK, if the transition arrangement is to be extended to Gibraltar. (Politics Live, Guardian)
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Re: Friday 8th December 2017

Post by PaulfromYorkshire »

This is a well made point from Polly Toynbee

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The dogs not barking should alarm. Brextremists won't accept "alignment", with no job for Fox, cobwebs on Trade Dept door.Redwood,Duncan Smith,Bone etc haven't turned softy, just biding time to kill off May and put in one of their own to stop all this.
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Re: Friday 8th December 2017

Post by HindleA »

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... CMP=twt_gu" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Grenfell Tower fire: response failings highlighted in report into tragedy
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Re: Friday 8th December 2017

Post by Tubby Isaacs »

Jeremy Hunt

@Jeremy_Hunt
Extraordinary achievement by @theresa_may today. Against all odds a deal delivered that confirms she is probably the only person in Britain able to deliver a good & clean Brexit
07:09 - 8 Dec 2017
Extraordinary achievement by Alan Minter, landing those powerful headbutts on Marvin Hagler's fists.
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Re: Friday 8th December 2017

Post by Tubby Isaacs »

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citizenJA
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Re: Friday 8th December 2017

Post by citizenJA »

Tubby Isaacs wrote:The mischief makers needed Cabinet resignations by this stage. They'll likely be happy with May's head, to line up on pikes with the other departed traitors, like Ted Heath, John Major, Tony Blair etc. Did they ever want the responsibility anyway? Euroscepticism is "country's going to the dogs" moaning into pints stuff.

Starmer's twitter feed doesn't exactly proclaim "We told you so", does it?
(cJA bold)

I've been away from the news and computer and haven't read the whole thread yet
apologies if the conversation has gone in another direction completely, I've not looked at news for hours
before I forget or get distracted I wanted to point out...
...the first thought I had after reading your post above was relief
it's probably very good Starmer's twitter feed is how you've described it
I've not seen Starmer's tweets, I trust your assessment is correct

Why is this important to me?
Tories remain government while their serial failures wreck havoc with millions of peoples' lives
Labour in Stoke is in campaign mode...every weekend delivering leaflets and vigilant, trying to be ready for...whatever it is current government does behind closed doors
Tubby Isaacs
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Re: Friday 8th December 2017

Post by Tubby Isaacs »

Hi Citizen,

The Labour campaigning capacity is hugely important, and that's down to Corbyn. I just think they've missed tricks with what could be put on the leaflets.
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citizenJA
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Re: Friday 8th December 2017

Post by citizenJA »

This Brexit deal should be celebrated – let the church bells ring
Michael Fabricant

My red lines are the freedom to agree trade worldwide, control over our borders, and supremacy of our law. Today’s agreement meets those tests
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... border-law" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
good god almighty

Fabricant Tory MP for Lichfield (Staffordshire)
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