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PostPosted: Tue 16 Jan, 2018 3:22 pm 
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AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Galloway hasn't been a party member since 2003, you know.


Ms Shawcroft was first elected to the NEC in 2000.

https://labourlist.org/2018/01/fresh-ro ... ary-panel/

I suspect we know whether George voted for her.


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PostPosted: Tue 16 Jan, 2018 3:36 pm 
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Quick work by the dynamic Shawcroft

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/c ... a5e19c?puo

Great to see someone so keen in her new role.


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PostPosted: Tue 16 Jan, 2018 3:40 pm 
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SpinningHugo wrote:
Ben Chu good on Carillion (though he too is too quick on the East Coast mainline story)

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/car ... 62131.html

Centrist Dads unite.

Agreed on the EastCoast Rly. This is a good one on outsourcing, its NOT the AdamSmith Institute :-


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PostPosted: Tue 16 Jan, 2018 4:00 pm 
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It's started snowing


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PostPosted: Tue 16 Jan, 2018 4:05 pm 
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Terrible isn't it - all these members voting for people and then being elected to positions in a party - and then people who are not members making snide comments about them

She isn't my cup of tea but it is for the Labour Party to decide and I have found some of those accusations about 'anti-semitism' pretty unpleasant. What religion is Lansmann again? Is everyone left-wing who opposes the vile regime in Israel a racist?

On outsourcing - it would take someone pretty wedded to the beliefs of Hayek and Thatcher not to think that this extensive use of the 'market' in public services ihas gone to far - we are further than even Thatcher could have dreamed of - or was she an extreme left-winger too?

It has also permeated the private sector where many of us see non-unionised demotivated people working long and unsocial hours, treated with no respect - an underclass - to save a few pounds but where the actual quality delivered is nowhere what it used to be. Value for money just means cheap not quality at a good price

Using third party contractors has been part of provision of private and public services since the beginning of civilisation - some of the straw men set out by Hugo are pretty stupid to be honest

What we have now though is the approach that everything is open for outsourcing with secret contracts, hidden influence (the link between corporate Britain and politics is very close) and secret performance indicators. The processes that allow failed bidders to sue the procurers but we are not allowed to understand the way they are chosen or what the contracts say

How something like the probation service, forensics, health, prisons, security etc can even be considered never mind actually implemented is beyond me.

Outsourcing of activities is a way to conveniently outsource Accountability as well


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PostPosted: Tue 16 Jan, 2018 4:11 pm 
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SpinningHugo wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Galloway hasn't been a party member since 2003, you know.


Ms Shawcroft was first elected to the NEC in 2000.

https://labourlist.org/2018/01/fresh-ro ... ary-panel/

I suspect we know whether George voted for her.


what, he elected her all on his own?


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PostPosted: Tue 16 Jan, 2018 4:21 pm 
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citizenJA wrote:
It's started snowing


Lucky you ! It's not only raining a bit but just started blowing a gale again ! I gave up my outside work, for a while at least . Typicalll lower Normandy weather :-)


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PostPosted: Tue 16 Jan, 2018 4:24 pm 
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frog222 wrote:
citizenJA wrote:
It's started snowing


Lucky you ! It's not only raining a bit but just started blowing a gale again ! I gave up my outside work, for a while at least . Typicalll lower Normandy weather :-)


Raining here...snow in mountains though......lots of avalanche bombs being set off at the moment.....we had 50 the other morning


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PostPosted: Tue 16 Jan, 2018 4:25 pm 
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RE hsom 4.05 I Wonder if it was thought that Carillion might sue if it didn'tget those contracts ?

A far cry from Thatcher DeLorean and Andersons


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PostPosted: Tue 16 Jan, 2018 4:27 pm 
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frog222 wrote:
RE hsom 4.05 I Wonder if it was thought that Carillion might sue if it didn'tget those contracts ?

A far cry from Thatcher DeLorean and Andersons


who knows....'commercial confidentiality'


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PostPosted: Tue 16 Jan, 2018 4:29 pm 
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Agreed on the EastCoast Rly. This is a good one on outsourcing, its NOT the AdamSmith Institute :-

/public-leaders-network/2018/jan/16/carillions-collapse-urgent-review-outsourcing

https://www.theguardian.com/public-lead ... utsourcing


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PostPosted: Tue 16 Jan, 2018 4:34 pm 
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frog222 wrote:
Agreed on the EastCoast Rly. This is a good one on outsourcing, its NOT the AdamSmith Institute :-

/public-leaders-network/2018/jan/16/carillions-collapse-urgent-review-outsourcing

https://www.theguardian.com/public-lead ... utsourcing


He is only an ex-audit commission expert - Hugo will know better than him


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PostPosted: Tue 16 Jan, 2018 4:38 pm 
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On East Coast....it is said that Virgin was justified in making a claim as certain promises were not kept by Network Rail

Is the detail of the contract available for us so we can see exactly what these clauses are?


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PostPosted: Tue 16 Jan, 2018 4:42 pm 
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howsillyofme1 wrote:
On East Coast....it is said that Virgin was justified in making a claim as certain promises were not kept by Network Rail

Is the detail of the contract available for us so we can see exactly what these clauses are?

Unlikely ! But from the links posted here it wasn't a simple case of daylight robbery of Simple Graything ..


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PostPosted: Tue 16 Jan, 2018 4:56 pm 
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From that David Walker article...

Quote:
The public sector will always buy things from firms, will use firms to build – as with Carillion – houses and railways. But bringing profit-seeking firms into policing and benefits assessment, into schools, clinics, and front as well as back offices, has changed the nature of the relationship. It’s time to stop, review and think again.


Amazed that anyone could take a line like this! ;)

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PostPosted: Tue 16 Jan, 2018 5:02 pm 
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RogerOThornhill wrote:
From that David Walker article...

Quote:
The public sector will always buy things from firms, will use firms to build – as with Carillion – houses and railways. But bringing profit-seeking firms into policing and benefits assessment, into schools, clinics, and front as well as back offices, has changed the nature of the relationship. It’s time to stop, review and think again.


Amazed that anyone could take a line like this! ;)

Thatcher, Blair,Brown,Cameron, there's a lot of turning-round to be done .


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PostPosted: Tue 16 Jan, 2018 5:07 pm 
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@PorFavor

Good Morfternoon


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PostPosted: Tue 16 Jan, 2018 5:11 pm 
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and what happened to all those Blairite ministers?

Miliband Snr, Hewitt, Byers, Hoon, Blunkett, Blair, Milburn etc......they all left Government to go into public service, advising unions and continuing their 'European Social Democrat' crusade or did they end up selling their souls to the private sector - often for companies salivating at the prospect of taking over core public sector competencies

But, I forget, these were all solid left wingers and I am the one out of step. being a loony extremist


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PostPosted: Tue 16 Jan, 2018 5:16 pm 
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@howsillyofme1
Are you referring to David Miliband?


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PostPosted: Tue 16 Jan, 2018 5:17 pm 
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On VTEC, it's clear to me that a nod and a wink at least was given.that stuff would get done. The increase in premiums make no sense otherwise. Osborne wanted biggest number to announce.


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PostPosted: Tue 16 Jan, 2018 5:20 pm 
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Osborne's gone low-profile after blaming the servants for his government's mistakes
Coward


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PostPosted: Tue 16 Jan, 2018 5:21 pm 
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citizenJA wrote:
@howsillyofme1
Are you referring to David Miliband?


indeed - I know he now works (at en exorbitant salary) for a charity but he was an appalling MP (look at his canvassing of constituents) and he earned around £1 million from a variety of sources after losing the leadership and before resigning

Miliband Jnr is a much better example of a politician with standards and we should acknowledge the behaviour of Gordon Brown too - proving there is no need to be a corporate shill


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PostPosted: Tue 16 Jan, 2018 5:26 pm 
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David Lammy

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@DavidLammy
47m47 minutes ago
More David Lammy Retweeted Labour Whips
I was one of 299 MPs who voted for Amendment 4 to retain EU Charter of Fundamental Rights in UK law. Shame on the Govnt for scrapping hard-won human rights that were not theirs to give away - they belonged to me, you, my constituents & every citizen (both Remainers and Leavers!)

https://twitter.com/DavidLammy/status/9 ... 2472832000

There go our Human Rights :fire: :fire:


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PostPosted: Tue 16 Jan, 2018 5:27 pm 
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Blog on the revocability of A50, reaches an interesting conclusion by way of this scenario :D
Quote:
Let’s imagine a different world in which George Osborne’s dire warnings had come true and the UK had been plunged into deep recession immediately the referendum result was known, in which Andrea Leadsom had been elected leader of the Conservatives and become Prime Minister, in which the UK Supreme Court had decided that the Prime Minister had the authority to give the Article 50 notification on her own without the approval of Parliament and in which PM Leadsom scribbled and sent off the notification before heading to Parliament the next day for a no-confidence vote amidst rioting in the streets. In this dystopia the PM is pulled from her car and lynched on the way to Parliament, and the hastily-appointed new Prime Minister May (who in both the real and imaginary worlds campaigned for Remain) announces that she is revoking the notification mere hours after it has been received by the European Council.

https://medium.com/@StrongerInNos/the-w ... f960fbbc8b

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PostPosted: Tue 16 Jan, 2018 5:47 pm 
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AngryAsWell wrote:
David Lammy

Verified account

@DavidLammy
47m47 minutes ago
More David Lammy Retweeted Labour Whips
I was one of 299 MPs who voted for Amendment 4 to retain EU Charter of Fundamental Rights in UK law. Shame on the Govnt for scrapping hard-won human rights that were not theirs to give away - they belonged to me, you, my constituents & every citizen (both Remainers and Leavers!)

https://twitter.com/DavidLammy/status/9 ... 2472832000

There go our Human Rights :fire: :fire:



How many Tory rebels voted for this amendment?


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PostPosted: Tue 16 Jan, 2018 6:06 pm 
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howsillyofme1 wrote:
citizenJA wrote:
@howsillyofme1
Are you referring to David Miliband?


indeed - I know he now works (at en exorbitant salary) for a charity but he was an appalling MP (look at his canvassing of constituents) and he earned around £1 million from a variety of sources after losing the leadership and before resigning

Miliband Jnr is a much better example of a politician with standards and we should acknowledge the behaviour of Gordon Brown too - proving there is no need to be a corporate shill

Brown also did not take the automatic PM's pension, and speaking etc income goes to Charity .


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PostPosted: Tue 16 Jan, 2018 6:15 pm 
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Good morfternoon.

(I really shouldn't lurk, reap the benefit of all your posts, and not observe the social niceties.)


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PostPosted: Tue 16 Jan, 2018 6:28 pm 
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https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... cing-model

carillion-scandal-bury-pfi-dogma-labour-demolish-outsourcing-model

John McDonnell combative!


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PostPosted: Tue 16 Jan, 2018 6:30 pm 
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A special prize for this BTL comment on McDonnell


Attachments:
Screen Shot 2018-01-16 at 18.50.22.png
Screen Shot 2018-01-16 at 18.50.22.png [ 27.03 KiB | Viewed 2213 times ]
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PostPosted: Tue 16 Jan, 2018 6:37 pm 
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frog222 wrote:
RogerOThornhill wrote:
From that David Walker article...

Quote:
The public sector will always buy things from firms, will use firms to build – as with Carillion – houses and railways. But bringing profit-seeking firms into policing and benefits assessment, into schools, clinics, and front as well as back offices, has changed the nature of the relationship. It’s time to stop, review and think again.


Amazed that anyone could take a line like this! ;)

Thatcher, Blair,Brown,Cameron, there's a lot of turning-round to be done .



And as for Callaghan, Wilson, Heath, Douglas-Home, Macmillan, Eden and Churchill.....


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PostPosted: Tue 16 Jan, 2018 6:40 pm 
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AngryAsWell wrote:
David Lammy

Verified account

@DavidLammy
47m47 minutes ago
More David Lammy Retweeted Labour Whips
I was one of 299 MPs who voted for Amendment 4 to retain EU Charter of Fundamental Rights in UK law. Shame on the Govnt for scrapping hard-won human rights that were not theirs to give away - they belonged to me, you, my constituents & every citizen (both Remainers and Leavers!)

https://twitter.com/DavidLammy/status/9 ... 2472832000

There go our Human Rights :fire: :fire:


There are some things worth worrying about (the single market, the customs union) and some things not (the Charter)

The Charter was a poorly conceived hodge podge of different things, some EU specific. You couldn't just incorporate it into UK law as some of it (eg freedom of moement) is predicated on being in the Eu.

Labour in government sought to opt out of it. Labour in government was right IMO.


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PostPosted: Tue 16 Jan, 2018 7:28 pm 
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Well, One Knackered Remove, anyway . . .


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PostPosted: Tue 16 Jan, 2018 7:30 pm 
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SpinningHugo wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote:
David Lammy

Verified account

@DavidLammy
47m47 minutes ago
More David Lammy Retweeted Labour Whips
I was one of 299 MPs who voted for Amendment 4 to retain EU Charter of Fundamental Rights in UK law. Shame on the Govnt for scrapping hard-won human rights that were not theirs to give away - they belonged to me, you, my constituents & every citizen (both Remainers and Leavers!)

https://twitter.com/DavidLammy/status/9 ... 2472832000

There go our Human Rights :fire: :fire:


There are some things worth worrying about (the single market, the customs union) and some things not (the Charter)

The Charter was a poorly conceived hodge podge of different things, some EU specific. You couldn't just incorporate it into UK law as some of it (eg freedom of moement) is predicated on being in the Eu.

Labour in government sought to opt out of it. Labour in government was right IMO.



So you would join the EEA and negotiate the add on of the CU as now - with no say on the rules would you?

And the British people would accept that would they - pay all that money but less say than the protocol-fascists in the East? It would be a stable deal for how long?

I am looking forward to you solution for that thorny issue.......


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PostPosted: Tue 16 Jan, 2018 7:34 pm 
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MPs have voted against a Labour bid to retain EU human rights measures in UK law post-Brexit after the Government offered Conservative rebels an eleventh-hour concession.

The amendment to the EU (Withdrawal) Bill was defeated by 311 votes to 301, giving the Government a majority of just 10.

Just one Conservative MP, Ken Clarke, defied the Government whip and voted for the motion to retain the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights, put forward by Jeremy Corbyn.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 68326.html


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PostPosted: Tue 16 Jan, 2018 7:34 pm 
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By the way, the above is a picture of Mary Chapin Carpenter, the co-singer (which you probably already know) and not of Shawn Colvin, who also appears (as you'll see when\if you watch the video).


Last edited by PorFavor on Tue 16 Jan, 2018 7:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue 16 Jan, 2018 7:35 pm 
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I don't remember the Blair Government being a particular beacon of progressiveness when it came to human rights - probably one of the most authoritarian Governments of recent times


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PostPosted: Tue 16 Jan, 2018 7:38 pm 
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SpinningHugo wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote:
David Lammy

Verified account

@DavidLammy
47m47 minutes ago
More David Lammy Retweeted Labour Whips
I was one of 299 MPs who voted for Amendment 4 to retain EU Charter of Fundamental Rights in UK law. Shame on the Govnt for scrapping hard-won human rights that were not theirs to give away - they belonged to me, you, my constituents & every citizen (both Remainers and Leavers!)

https://twitter.com/DavidLammy/status/9 ... 2472832000

There go our Human Rights :fire: :fire:


There are some things worth worrying about (the single market, the customs union) and some things not (the Charter)

The Charter was a poorly conceived hodge podge of different things, some EU specific. You couldn't just incorporate it into UK law as some of it (eg freedom of moement) is predicated on being in the Eu.

Labour in government sought to opt out of it. Labour in government was right IMO.


You may think that, I on the other hand don't trust tory's within spitting distance. If you seriously think their replacement will be as good as what we have now, then I think you are being naive, something I would not normally associate with you.

(Massive thunder and lightning storm here so going off line for a bit.)


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PostPosted: Tue 16 Jan, 2018 7:46 pm 
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Ah yes, Oliver Kamm - maybe the most pompous prat in Christendom :)

(confess I did fleetingly wonder if you were him, some time ago - you genuinely aren't that bad though)


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PostPosted: Tue 16 Jan, 2018 7:51 pm 
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AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Ah yes, Oliver Kamm - maybe the most pompous prat in Christendom :)

(confess I did fleetingly wonder if you were him, some time ago - you genuinely aren't that bad though)


you sure? I think he is pretty bad....

edit, wow, just looked up that guy - what a complete and utter pompous wanker.....and we are supposed to take anything he says seriously?


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PostPosted: Tue 16 Jan, 2018 8:00 pm 
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AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Ah yes, Oliver Kamm - maybe the most pompous prat in Christendom :)

(confess I did fleetingly wonder if you were him, some time ago - you genuinely aren't that bad though)



I rather like him. I don't agree with him on everything (eg Iraq) but he writes well, and is no fool. I (obviously) think him right about Corbyn. I also think he is right about the Labour 'moderate' MPs. Most are now in the wrong party. Paul Mason is right they should go. Someone like, say, Yvette Cooper doesn't belong anymore. They're wasting both their lives and their political capital (such as it is). They've proved themselves a peculiarly spineless and unprincipled group IMO, making my decision to leave all the easier.


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PostPosted: Tue 16 Jan, 2018 8:07 pm 
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Just to let everyone know I deleted a post that a member complained about and a post that appeared to respond to it.

We don't usually do this but the first poster has been warned.

Let's not discuss it any more and play nicely please ;-)


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PostPosted: Tue 16 Jan, 2018 8:09 pm 
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PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
Just to let everyone know I deleted a post that a member complained about.

We don't usually do this but the poster has been warned.

Let's not discuss it any more and play nicely please ;-)



Somebody doesn't like Shawn Colvin?


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PostPosted: Tue 16 Jan, 2018 8:20 pm 
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SpinningHugo wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Ah yes, Oliver Kamm - maybe the most pompous prat in Christendom :)

(confess I did fleetingly wonder if you were him, some time ago - you genuinely aren't that bad though)



I rather like him. I don't agree with him on everything (eg Iraq) but he writes well, and is no fool. I (obviously) think him right about Corbyn. I also think he is right about the Labour 'moderate' MPs. Most are now in the wrong party. Paul Mason is right they should go. Someone like, say, Yvette Cooper doesn't belong anymore. They're wasting both their lives and their political capital (such as it is). They've proved themselves a peculiarly spineless and unprincipled group IMO, making my decision to leave all the easier.



well I do see similarities between him and the way you write so I see why you like him

If they don't belong in Labour then where do they belong - the Tories?

Most seem to have started off in the Kinnock Labour Party which seemed to be a lot more left-wing than Corbyn - just looked back at the manifestos of 87 and 92.....seemed pretty left-wing to me

As I said yesterday it is New Labour that seems to be the anomaly - Thatcher took her version of the free market dogma of the Mont Pélerin society (based on classic liberalism of the late 19th century) and replaced the post-war consensus. New Labour did relatively little to change that and actually provided the stepping stone for further neoliberal economic ideas

This 'centre' is actually right wing economically. They believe in the market delivering the best solutions in virtually all areas of public service (would have supported the Tory Government approach on Carillion until yesterday), low taxation, restrictive trade union laws, tough and authoritarian on security, believe in the principles behind academies and free schools, 'pro-business' many keen proponents of Likud.

See themselves I am sure as politically with the Clinton Democratic Party - something that is in no way left wing

This is what people like Akehurst believe and that has no link to why I go involved in politics in the Thatcher years. Thatcher always said Blair was her greatest success (just like Macmillan was Atlee's) - and listening to some of the guff I have seen today I can understand why


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PostPosted: Tue 16 Jan, 2018 8:40 pm 
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Paul Mason v funny on twitter tonight

https://twitter.com/paulmasonnews/statu ... 4131088387

https://twitter.com/IainDale/status/953349839277973510


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PostPosted: Tue 16 Jan, 2018 8:48 pm 
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seems the Tories have called in a few favours from their media outriders today - wonder if something has happened that needs to have the focus shifted onto Labour...

I tell you what let's get Iain Dale to tweet stuff about a left-wing journalist, oh and anti-semitism also works so perhaps we can find something we can make up about that too.....and let us call up our pal Luke Akehurst, he is always good for a moaning quote

Remember to call them moderates though....not right-wing neoliberal - that makes them sound like Tories - we need to make them sound like the Labour mainstream

Sod the fact that there are hundreds, if not thousands, of jobs at risk because we have not been doing our jobs properly, and that the appointed receivers have also been advising the company that went bust but we have no choice because we have allowed the market to be dominated by 4 companies - it used to be 5 but one got found to be just too corrupt!
...


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PostPosted: Tue 16 Jan, 2018 8:53 pm 
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well this is pleasant isn't it? Perhaps a subject to discuss at some point if there is need but the headline when there is chaos going on in the UK?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 62761.html


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PostPosted: Tue 16 Jan, 2018 8:57 pm 
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howsillyofme1 wrote:
well this is pleasant isn't it? Perhaps a subject to discuss at some point if there is need but the headline when there is chaos going on in the UK?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 62761.html

If that's the best argument they've got to get rid of him he's nigh on invincible :lol:


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PostPosted: Tue 16 Jan, 2018 9:00 pm 
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PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:
well this is pleasant isn't it? Perhaps a subject to discuss at some point if there is need but the headline when there is chaos going on in the UK?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 62761.html

If that's the best argument they've got to get rid of him he's nigh on invincible :lol:



Rentoul very good on the age issue (you'll agree with me, I promise). I also agree on the succession. He'll not quit as a result (not that he ever would have, that was always wishful thinking).

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/jer ... 62621.html


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PostPosted: Tue 16 Jan, 2018 9:03 pm 
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PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:
well this is pleasant isn't it? Perhaps a subject to discuss at some point if there is need but the headline when there is chaos going on in the UK?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 62761.html

If that's the best argument they've got to get rid of him he's nigh on invincible :lol:



Personally, I have no problem people raising this with him (rather than making anonymous comments to a newspaper) but he looks in pretty good health and seems full of energy. I see him as a good example to be honest

The thing that amazes me though is this is seen as front page news today of all days? It is hardly urgent topic.....more a page 10 on the left hand page

The Carillion situation is getting worse not better and there are more and more consequences coming to light

It does make you wonder if there is a coordinated attempt to bury bad news under a sea of nonsense?


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PostPosted: Tue 16 Jan, 2018 9:05 pm 
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SpinningHugo wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:
well this is pleasant isn't it? Perhaps a subject to discuss at some point if there is need but the headline when there is chaos going on in the UK?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 62761.html

If that's the best argument they've got to get rid of him he's nigh on invincible :lol:



Rentoul very good on the age issue (you'll agree with me, I promise). I also agree on the succession. He'll not quit as a result (not that he ever would have, that was always wishful thinking).

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/jer ... 62621.html


hasn't he got anything better to write about?


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