Monday 5th February 2018
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Welcome to FTN. New posters are welcome to join the conversation. You can follow us on Twitter @FlythenestHaven You are responsible for the content you post. This is a public forum. Treat it as if you are speaking in a crowded room. Site admin and Moderators are volunteers who will respond as quickly as they are able to when made aware of any complaints. Please do not post copyrighted material without the original authors permission.
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Monday 5th February 2018
Morning.
Somehow missed it snowing.
Currently 0 C
Somehow missed it snowing.
Currently 0 C
Re: Monday 5th February 2018
--4° and a clear sky
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Re: Monday 5th February 2018
Still dark!
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Re: Monday 5th February 2018
Put the bloody light on then.
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Re: Monday 5th February 2018
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... toms-union" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
cabinet-united-brexit-trade-strategy-amber-rudd-theresa-may-customs-union
Union, partnership, arrangement?
Let's call the whole thing off!
cabinet-united-brexit-trade-strategy-amber-rudd-theresa-may-customs-union
Union, partnership, arrangement?
Let's call the whole thing off!
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Re: Monday 5th February 2018
"educated people",sheesh.
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Re: Monday 5th February 2018
In what way would that help me determine the clarity of the sky?HindleA wrote:Put the bloody light on then.
Good morning
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Re: Monday 5th February 2018
What utter nonsense this attempt to distinguish between "a" customs union and "the" customs union is. It wouldn't impress a small child.
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Re: Monday 5th February 2018
Well exactly.SpinningHugo wrote:What utter nonsense this attempt to distinguish between "a" customs union and "the" customs union is. It wouldn't impress a small child.
And this is the team batting for Britain in Brussels
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Re: Monday 5th February 2018
Right,time for bed.Enjoy your day(s)
Re: Monday 5th February 2018
Hmm, maybe you are transitioning to being a rabbit.HindleA wrote:Right,time for bed.Enjoy your day(s)
Re: Monday 5th February 2018
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... toms-union
cabinet-united-brexit-trade-strategy-amber-rudd-theresa-may-customs-union
Union, partnership, arrangement?
Let's call the whole thing off!
That sounds pretty flexible to me, was there more?“It is not our policy to be in the customs union. It is not our policy to be in a customs union.”
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Re: Monday 5th February 2018
SpinningHugo wrote:What utter nonsense this attempt to distinguish between "a" customs union and "the" customs union is. It wouldn't impress a small child.
Why is it nonsense?
You do know there is a difference between the definite and indefinite articles don't you?
Being a member of the EU Customs Union is different to being in a customs union with the EU (such as Turkey is)
It is all very semantic but it is important in these types of discussion where people are trying to avoid being too specific for a particular reason. You can criticise people for sitting on the fence and not being specific but that is different from criticising the use of 'a' and 'the'
The issue is people make losts of asssumptions on what customs union and single market means and so interchange a lot. The definite article should only be used where all parties in the discussion know what it is referring to - if someone says 'the customs union' to me, it means the one that we are currently in as part of the membership of the EU; if they say 'a customs union' that means something that has not been fully defined yet.
As I say very semantic but it suits the person saying it
Re: Monday 5th February 2018
But the government are using it nonsensically, as part of the 'we can have just the relationship we have now but without the obligations or the oversight' idea.howsillyofme1 wrote:SpinningHugo wrote:What utter nonsense this attempt to distinguish between "a" customs union and "the" customs union is. It wouldn't impress a small child.
Why is it nonsense?
You do know there is a difference between the definite and indefinite articles don't you?
Being a member of the EU Customs Union is different to being in a customs union with the EU (such as Turkey is)
It is all very semantic but it is important in these types of discussion where people are trying to avoid being too specific for a particular reason. You can criticise people for sitting on the fence and not being specific but that is different from criticising the use of 'a' and 'the'
The issue is people make losts of asssumptions on what customs union and single market means and so interchange a lot. The definite article should only be used where all parties in the discussion know what it is referring to - if someone says 'the customs union' to me, it means the one that we are currently in as part of the membership of the EU; if they say 'a customs union' that means something that has not been fully defined yet.
As I say very semantic but it suits the person saying it
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Re: Monday 5th February 2018
Adamadam wrote:But the government are using it nonsensically, as part of the 'we can have just the relationship we have now but without the obligations or the oversight' idea.howsillyofme1 wrote:SpinningHugo wrote:What utter nonsense this attempt to distinguish between "a" customs union and "the" customs union is. It wouldn't impress a small child.
Why is it nonsense?
You do know there is a difference between the definite and indefinite articles don't you?
Being a member of the EU Customs Union is different to being in a customs union with the EU (such as Turkey is)
It is all very semantic but it is important in these types of discussion where people are trying to avoid being too specific for a particular reason. You can criticise people for sitting on the fence and not being specific but that is different from criticising the use of 'a' and 'the'
The issue is people make losts of asssumptions on what customs union and single market means and so interchange a lot. The definite article should only be used where all parties in the discussion know what it is referring to - if someone says 'the customs union' to me, it means the one that we are currently in as part of the membership of the EU; if they say 'a customs union' that means something that has not been fully defined yet.
As I say very semantic but it suits the person saying it
I was replying to the sense that using 'a' and 'the' was nonsense and it isn't
The Government are entitled to say they want to be in a customs union with the EU that is a 'cake and eat' it option. It would no longer be the EU customs union as now.
I know it is semantics but if I was May I would be doing the same thing - using 'a' a lot more than 'the'. Labour are doing it as well and the reasoning is pretty clear even if you think that politics of it is completely unrealistic and nonsensical
She though seems to have ruled out a customs union which seems to cover all bases - but is now talking of an arrangement, but that is far more ambiguous because I have no idea what one iof those looks like - a customs union is pretty well-defined
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Re: Monday 5th February 2018
It is nonsensical whoever uses it. The substantive matter is whether we can enter into independent trade deals with therd party countries (ie whether Foxadam wrote: But the government are using it nonsensically, as part of the 'we can have just the relationship we have now but without the obligations or the oversight' idea.
s department is meaningful).
Trying to distinguish between "a" and "the" is the same laughable linguistic pedantry, worthy of nothing but mockery, as those who insist we cannot be members of the single market.
As we've already agreed the Irish border issue, we'll be staying in the customs union (or if idiots prefer, within a customs union materially identical). Labour should just commit to it now, as it is already determined.
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Re: Monday 5th February 2018
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Re: Monday 5th February 2018
For clarity, John Pienaar on R5 has confirmed (if anything can be regarded as "confirmed" in this day and age) that number 10 has ruled out ANY kind of CU.
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Re: Monday 5th February 2018
Brexit: May accused of 'ideologically-driven madness' after she rules out any customs union - Politics live
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/bl ... itics-live" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/bl ... itics-live" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Monday 5th February 2018
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
It is so transparently obvious that this ridiculous row is being driven by internal Tory party politics, and not what is best for the UK.
We'll be in the customs union regardless.
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Re: Monday 5th February 2018
It is sematic to argue between 'a' and 'the' I agree but there is a clear difference and in this case I understand why. Will they be identical - how do you know that? I don't agree that this is fore-ordained. The outcome will be to allow goods to pass between the UK and Ireland but whether that will be identical to the EU customs union or be a customs union that allows the sameSpinningHugo wrote:It is nonsensical whoever uses it. The substantive matter is whether we can enter into independent trade deals with therd party countries (ie whether Foxadam wrote: But the government are using it nonsensically, as part of the 'we can have just the relationship we have now but without the obligations or the oversight' idea.
s department is meaningful).
Trying to distinguish between "a" and "the" is the same laughable linguistic pedantry, worthy of nothing but mockery, as those who insist we cannot be members of the single market.
As we've already agreed the Irish border issue, we'll be staying in the customs union (or if idiots prefer, within a customs union materially identical). Labour should just commit to it now, as it is already determined.
Let us take this 'Single Market'
There are 3 examples of single markets the EU are currently engaged in
There is the EU internal market
There is the EEA agreement between EFTA and the EU that covers defined aspects of the internal market
There are the CH/EU bilaterals which again cover certain aspects of the internal market
These are all different, but to be acceptable to the EU in that they meet certain principles that fulfill the 4 pillars. It isperfectly arguable that there is no definined 'single market'that can be applied in all cases In the end the exact requirementas are set out in signed treaties (the EU treaties for the members of that organisation, the EEA for EFTA, and the bilaterals for CH) and that is all that matters. I will say again the phrase 'single market' does not appear to exist within the EEA agreement
Of course, this is all vvery pedantic but if I was a politician trying to tip-toe through this I would be playing on all this until the last minute possible
You can disagree with the approach and the fence-sitting but you are making assertions that I do not think are entirely correct
I though, as a supposed lawyer, you would be very sensitive to the subtle differences of language in this type of discussion
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Re: Monday 5th February 2018
and that is the important point - if they ruled out 'the customs union' that leaves some wriggle room - saying no customs union at all takes it to a new levelAngryAsWell wrote:For clarity, John Pienaar on R5 has confirmed (if anything can be regarded as "confirmed" in this day and age) that number 10 has ruled out ANY kind of CU.
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Re: Monday 5th February 2018
"We will not be staying in any CU in any way shape or form" is what the government has announced.
That looks faily black and white to me.
That looks faily black and white to me.
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Re: Monday 5th February 2018
and to me - the argument over 'a' and 'the' becomes completely irrelevent - although there is this new concept of an 'arrangement'AngryAsWell wrote:"We will not be staying in any CU in any way shape or form" is what the government has announced.
That looks faily black and white to me.
I would have thought staying with 'a customs union' would have been a better option as it probably keeps everything open - ruling it out seems a little bizarre and can only be explained by the rifts in the Tory Party
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Re: Monday 5th February 2018
Today does nicely illustrate the difference between being in government and not.
The current government position makes no sense. But that cannot hold. These cake and eat it policies (a custms union arrangement that has no hard border in Ireland is materially identical to the customs union but is incompatible with the third party trade deals the Brexiteers think is the upside of Brexit).
The opposition can fudge this with bland nonsense about a "jobs first Brexit" but being in governmenr means making choices.
There is also a major problem with Parliamentary demcracy here. There is no majority that gives a Parliamentary majority within either the Tory or Labour parties for any particular approach to Brexit. There is a majority across them (basically for a soft SM and CU Brexit) but that (probably large) majority is not in charge of either of those parties. So the majority in Parliament (and probably in the country) cannot be represented in government regardless of what happens.
Rees-Mogg v Corbyn here we come. What madness.
The current government position makes no sense. But that cannot hold. These cake and eat it policies (a custms union arrangement that has no hard border in Ireland is materially identical to the customs union but is incompatible with the third party trade deals the Brexiteers think is the upside of Brexit).
The opposition can fudge this with bland nonsense about a "jobs first Brexit" but being in governmenr means making choices.
There is also a major problem with Parliamentary demcracy here. There is no majority that gives a Parliamentary majority within either the Tory or Labour parties for any particular approach to Brexit. There is a majority across them (basically for a soft SM and CU Brexit) but that (probably large) majority is not in charge of either of those parties. So the majority in Parliament (and probably in the country) cannot be represented in government regardless of what happens.
Rees-Mogg v Corbyn here we come. What madness.
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Re: Monday 5th February 2018
FT as ever measured and right
https://www.ft.com/content/618dbbc4-074 ... 0ad2d7c5b5" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
May has proven astonishingly ill-suited to the job. what a sorry disaster the UK is.
https://www.ft.com/content/618dbbc4-074 ... 0ad2d7c5b5" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
May has proven astonishingly ill-suited to the job. what a sorry disaster the UK is.
Re: Monday 5th February 2018
But instead they want close, frictionless alignment or a 'customs partnership' which seems vaguelyAngryAsWell wrote:"We will not be staying in any CU in any way shape or form" is what the government has announced.
That looks faily black and white to me.
similar, (although woolly, fuzzy & grey)
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Re: Monday 5th February 2018
tinybgoat wrote:But instead they want close, frictionless alignment or a 'customs partnership' which seems vaguelyAngryAsWell wrote:"We will not be staying in any CU in any way shape or form" is what the government has announced.
That looks faily black and white to me.
similar, (although woolly, fuzzy & grey)
"exactly the same benefits"
Brexit requires choices. It would have been better to make those choices, have the political fight, and then try to work towards the agreed goals.
Both main parties found that too hard, and so instead made no choices.
Of course that the government did that is far more consequential.
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Re: Monday 5th February 2018
Indeed being in Government is about making choices, and that is the downside of being in powerSpinningHugo wrote:Today does nicely illustrate the difference between being in government and not.
The current government position makes no sense. But that cannot hold. These cake and eat it policies (a custms union arrangement that has no hard border in Ireland is materially identical to the customs union but is incompatible with the third party trade deals the Brexiteers think is the upside of Brexit).
The opposition can fudge this with bland nonsense about a "jobs first Brexit" but being in governmenr means making choices.
There is also a major problem with Parliamentary demcracy here. There is no majority that gives a Parliamentary majority within either the Tory or Labour parties for any particular approach to Brexit. There is a majority across them (basically for a soft SM and CU Brexit) but that (probably large) majority is not in charge of either of those parties. So the majority in Parliament (and probably in the country) cannot be represented in government regardless of what happens.
Rees-Mogg v Corbyn here we come. What madness.
The downside of opposition is not being able to implement things but the plus side is that you can avoid making decisions
I am not so convinced of where the majority sits in the HoC - the Tories are a bit of an enigma
This soft SM/CU option may sound good on paper but I am not sure it is going to be all that popular when people find out the practical implications - politicians have a habit of mis-reading their electorate. I am not sure anyone can say witrh confidence that this option does have the majority or that it will be accepted
It is why I am not particularly enthused about Labour jumping too soon on this
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Re: Monday 5th February 2018
Anna Soubry MPVerified account
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May I gently remind @Conservatives colleagues we lost our majority in June when the British people rejected a no #CustomsUnion #Hard Brexit
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May I gently remind @Conservatives colleagues we lost our majority in June when the British people rejected a no #CustomsUnion #Hard Brexit
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Re: Monday 5th February 2018
The only thing that could save us now is Nissan & Toyota declaring that as their "just in time" manufacturing model will not work outside of the CU, that they will be pulling out of the UK.
Seems to me the whole country needs a hard slap!
Seems to me the whole country needs a hard slap!
Re: Monday 5th February 2018
That should be an inevitability - we shall see.AngryAsWell wrote:The only thing that could save us now is Nissan & Toyota declaring that as their "just in time" manufacturing model will not work outside of the CU, that they will be pulling out of the UK.
Seems to me the whole country needs a hard slap!
I still believe in a town called Hope
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Re: Monday 5th February 2018
Something like that needs to happen, I agree. The electorate need something to shock them into actionAngryAsWell wrote:The only thing that could save us now is Nissan & Toyota declaring that as their "just in time" manufacturing model will not work outside of the CU, that they will be pulling out of the UK.
Seems to me the whole country needs a hard slap!
Re: Monday 5th February 2018
If you think that would save us you're more optimistic than I am, there appears to be no limit to the economic damage the tory hard/no-deal brexit supporters will accept.AngryAsWell wrote:The only thing that could save us now is Nissan & Toyota declaring that as their "just in time" manufacturing model will not work outside of the CU, that they will be pulling out of the UK.
Seems to me the whole country needs a hard slap!
One world, like it or not - John Martyn
Re: Monday 5th February 2018
We and our overseas investors are being stabbed in the back by the unreasonable attitude of the unreasonable EU who for some reason can't see the sense in allowing our perfectly effective current business practices to continue after we leave the the EU.gilsey wrote:If you think that would save us you're more optimistic than I am, there appears to be no limit to the economic damage the tory hard/no-deal brexit supporters will accept.AngryAsWell wrote:The only thing that could save us now is Nissan & Toyota declaring that as their "just in time" manufacturing model will not work outside of the CU, that they will be pulling out of the UK.
Seems to me the whole country needs a hard slap!
I still believe in a town called Hope
Re: Monday 5th February 2018
Anyway, it seems to me that May/Davis want us to leave the EU and thereafter voluntarily adopt EU laws and regulations, which they think will a) satisfy the voters that we've left the EU and b) avoid the need for border controls in NI or indeed anywhere else. Take back control!
One world, like it or not - John Martyn
Re: Monday 5th February 2018
Ultimately is it having to rely on the DUP that's preventing the Tories having a potentially workable solution? if it were acceptable to have a customs border between the rest of the UK and N.Ireland, does anyone think the Government's plans (i.e. eu rules for goods destined for eu, separate trade deals for uk only) would be achievable? Also how would a similar scenario work with Labour, would they be happy on a customs border with N.Ireland?
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Re: Monday 5th February 2018
Will Hutton
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Average wait at French ports for non-EU lorries is 7 minutes. That implies 50 mile queues on M 2/20. Parallel crisis at Irish border. House of Commons will not/cannot agree deal with no customs union. May has saved her job for a few more weeks but killed Brexit this morning.
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Interesting viewpoint...
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Average wait at French ports for non-EU lorries is 7 minutes. That implies 50 mile queues on M 2/20. Parallel crisis at Irish border. House of Commons will not/cannot agree deal with no customs union. May has saved her job for a few more weeks but killed Brexit this morning.
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Interesting viewpoint...
Re: Monday 5th February 2018
Would Scotland, Wales, London... and so on, accept a situation where Northern Ireland had a better trading relationship with the rest of the EU than they did?tinybgoat wrote:Ultimately is it having to rely on the DUP that's preventing the Tories having a potentially workable solution? if it were acceptable to have a customs border between the rest of the UK and N.Ireland, does anyone think the Government's plans (i.e. eu rules for goods destined for eu, separate trade deals for uk only) would be achievable? Also how would a similar scenario work with Labour, would they be happy on a customs border with N.Ireland?
I still believe in a town called Hope
Re: Monday 5th February 2018
To turn that on it's head, it isn't ok to have economic armageddon just because NI gets it too.adam wrote:Would Scotland, Wales, London... and so on, accept a situation where Northern Ireland had a better trading relationship with the rest of the EU than they did?tinybgoat wrote:Ultimately is it having to rely on the DUP that's preventing the Tories having a potentially workable solution? if it were acceptable to have a customs border between the rest of the UK and N.Ireland, does anyone think the Government's plans (i.e. eu rules for goods destined for eu, separate trade deals for uk only) would be achievable? Also how would a similar scenario work with Labour, would they be happy on a customs border with N.Ireland?
I'm struggling to word that right.
One world, like it or not - John Martyn
Re: Monday 5th February 2018
I'm probably misunderstanding it, but theory would be that we'd have close to 'as is' trading with eu, but separate deals possible for other nations, the border with n.ireland would be to keep non-eu goods out of the island of Ireland (and, so the EU). So arguably it would be N.Ireland who'd lose out on the extra World trade, but would get to keep an open border with Ireland.adam wrote:Would Scotland, Wales, London... and so on, accept a situation where Northern Ireland had a better trading relationship with the rest of the EU than they did?tinybgoat wrote:Ultimately is it having to rely on the DUP that's preventing the Tories having a potentially workable solution? if it were acceptable to have a customs border between the rest of the UK and N.Ireland, does anyone think the Government's plans (i.e. eu rules for goods destined for eu, separate trade deals for uk only) would be achievable? Also how would a similar scenario work with Labour, would they be happy on a customs border with N.Ireland?
edit (admittedly, this seems unlikely)
Last edited by tinybgoat on Mon 05 Feb, 2018 10:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Monday 5th February 2018
Patrick McVeighAngryAsWell wrote:Will Hutton
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Average wait at French ports for non-EU lorries is 7 minutes. That implies 50 mile queues on M 2/20. Parallel crisis at Irish border. House of Commons will not/cannot agree deal with no customs union. May has saved her job for a few more weeks but killed Brexit this morning.
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Interesting viewpoint...
@PMCV
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Replying to @williamnhutton
Apparently Honda UK requires 350 lorries a day to get through Dover - will Honda spell this impossibility out? Or is it simply too risky to be the first car assembler to admit this law of physics?
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Re: Monday 5th February 2018
Damn, We'll just have to postpone Brexit until a time when our knowledge of Physics is suitably advanced.gilsey wrote:Patrick McVeighAngryAsWell wrote:Will Hutton
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Average wait at French ports for non-EU lorries is 7 minutes. That implies 50 mile queues on M 2/20. Parallel crisis at Irish border. House of Commons will not/cannot agree deal with no customs union. May has saved her job for a few more weeks but killed Brexit this morning.
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Interesting viewpoint...
@PMCV
2h2 hours ago
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Replying to @williamnhutton
Apparently Honda UK requires 350 lorries a day to get through Dover - will Honda spell this impossibility out? Or is it simply too risky to be the first car assembler to admit this law of physics?
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Re: Monday 5th February 2018
To a hard core, anything bad that happens with Brexit will be the fault of somebody else.gilsey wrote:If you think that would save us you're more optimistic than I am, there appears to be no limit to the economic damage the tory hard/no-deal brexit supporters will accept.AngryAsWell wrote:The only thing that could save us now is Nissan & Toyota declaring that as their "just in time" manufacturing model will not work outside of the CU, that they will be pulling out of the UK.
Seems to me the whole country needs a hard slap!
But as with Trump's diehard supporters in the US, these people are in fact a minority. There are quite a few who are persuadable.
"IS TONTY BLAIR BEHIND THIS???!!!!111???!!!"
Re: Monday 5th February 2018
Apparently the government are leaning towards a customs agreement, not a custom's union. Although it may involve technology that doesn't yet exist.
I still believe in a town called Hope
Re: Monday 5th February 2018
[youtube]l9zcLAUp5E0[/youtube]HindleA wrote:Morning.
Somehow missed it snowing.
Currently 0 C
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Re: Monday 5th February 2018
Just the usual, then.....adam wrote:Apparently the government are leaning towards a customs agreement, not a custom's union. Although it may involve technology that doesn't yet exist.
"IS TONTY BLAIR BEHIND THIS???!!!!111???!!!"
Re: Monday 5th February 2018
Good morfternoon.
A further >400 jobs lost as a result of the Carillion failure (Sky TV news - no further details).
A further >400 jobs lost as a result of the Carillion failure (Sky TV news - no further details).
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Re: Monday 5th February 2018
Morning all.
Early appointment at the hospital - and I;m fairly certain that getting into the car park - signs saying full when clearly not and thus barrier not working until someone exits - took longer than the actual appointment. Anyway, all well. Last chemo is on Thursday.
And, oh joy, an email asking me to investigate a complaint at school. My life is so great right now...
Early appointment at the hospital - and I;m fairly certain that getting into the car park - signs saying full when clearly not and thus barrier not working until someone exits - took longer than the actual appointment. Anyway, all well. Last chemo is on Thursday.
And, oh joy, an email asking me to investigate a complaint at school. My life is so great right now...
If I'm not here, then I'll be in the library. Or the other library.
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- Joined: Mon 16 Feb, 2015 1:22 pm
Re: Monday 5th February 2018
Notice that Labour still hasn't reacted to this Customs Union row.
Labour should commit now to permanent membership of the Customs Union (or for fools, permanently being in a Customs Union with materially identical terms).
Labour must now dismiss the views of the shadow secretary of state for international trade as wrong
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ain-europe" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Get on the right side FFS.
Labour should commit now to permanent membership of the Customs Union (or for fools, permanently being in a Customs Union with materially identical terms).
Labour must now dismiss the views of the shadow secretary of state for international trade as wrong
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ain-europe" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Get on the right side FFS.