Tuesday 12th June 2018

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Willow904
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Tuesday 12th June 2018

Post by Willow904 »

Morning.

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2018/ ... ssion=true" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Former Irish prime minister 'appalled' at state of British politics
Enda Kenny laments splits in the government and a ‘lack of credibility’ on Ireland’s future
Sentiments we can all agree with, I think.
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Willow904
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Re: Tuesday 12th June 2018

Post by Willow904 »

@ HindleA
Instead of pissing away money in patronising budget advice to people who had no problem before return income to reliable,knoweable and adequate,just a thought.

The Tory mind is a very warped one.Some sort of create chaos,problems that didn't exist to prove they did and congratulate yourself that you are helping.
The point blank refusal to do a cumulative impact assessment reveals, I think, the Tory mindset. They know some people will end up without enough to live on, but they don't care, their only worry is ensuring this remains obscure from the majority of the public.
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RogerOThornhill
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Re: Tuesday 12th June 2018

Post by RogerOThornhill »

Good morning.

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BREAKING - @DrPhillipLeeMP has just resigned from govt over Brexit - he says policy is 'detrimental' to the people and that govt has to protect its citzens from what the majority voted for
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Willow904
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Re: Tuesday 12th June 2018

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https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... are_btn_tw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Home secretary Sajid Javid has said that Arron Banks’s Russian connections are being examined “very seriously” by two ministers in two departments who want to establish if there was an attempt to undermine parliamentary democracy during the Brexit campaign.
I don't think I'm the only one who has speculated that if the government wanted to pull back from a hard Brexit or even shelve Brexit entirely, it would be in their interests to neutralise the Ukip threat, which was previously leeching their votes, by delegitimising their key figures. So there is a certain logic to Tory ministers being keen to get to the bottom of any potential Ukip wrongdoing which raises some interesting questions about the way these e-mails came to light.

On the other hand, the government can't ignore the potential Banks/Farage connections to Russia completely because of what may eventually come out through the Mueller investigation. The idea that MI5 aren't aware of connections independent journalists have been making for many months now is laughable, so if anything concrete came out of the Mueller indictments it would raise a lot of questions of why our authorities weren't all over this much earlier if they do nothing at all, so the government have to make some effort to be seen to be taking this seriously, but how far they'll go when the trail appears to lead to their own front door, with Leave.EU and Vote Leave activities apparently co-ordinated, is hard to say.
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Willow904
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Re: Tuesday 12th June 2018

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RogerOThornhill wrote:Good morning.

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BREAKING - @DrPhillipLeeMP has just resigned from govt over Brexit - he says policy is 'detrimental' to the people and that govt has to protect its citzens from what the majority voted for
Well...

For all the political punditry, it's really hard to call how these votes are going to go for Theresa May. If backbenchers really want to defeat the government, they would hardly be open about the numbers they have - you only do that if you think you can win concessions and Theresa May has stuffed herself on that score as she has time and again shown herself unwilling and unable to budge even an inch.

They'll let her win something, as they don't want her ousted, but I think she's going to lose something too as the rebels can't afford the Brexit hardliners to dominate completely. Grieve's amendment looks to me like the sort of thing the rebels were hoping May herself would offer as a face saving compromise. Why she didn't is beyond me.
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PaulfromYorkshire
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Re: Tuesday 12th June 2018

Post by PaulfromYorkshire »

Willow904 wrote:
RogerOThornhill wrote:Good morning.

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BREAKING - @DrPhillipLeeMP has just resigned from govt over Brexit - he says policy is 'detrimental' to the people and that govt has to protect its citzens from what the majority voted for
Well...

For all the political punditry, it's really hard to call how these votes are going to go for Theresa May. If backbenchers really want to defeat the government, they would hardly be open about the numbers they have - you only do that if you think you can win concessions and Theresa May has stuffed herself on that score as she has time and again shown herself unwilling and unable to budge even an inch.

They'll let her win something, as they don't want her ousted, but I think she's going to lose something too as the rebels can't afford the Brexit hardliners to dominate completely. Grieve's amendment looks to me like the sort of thing the rebels were hoping May herself would offer as a face saving compromise. Why she didn't is beyond me.
Insightful comment. Thanks.

I wonder if Dr Phillip Lee studied psychology?!

His timing is potentially devastating for May. He's shown the way and been immediately praised for it. And little time now for the whips to respond.

Dramatic.
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Re: Tuesday 12th June 2018

Post by PaulfromYorkshire »

It's not really a laughing matter, but
his [Lee's] research interests included the psychodynamics of anti-Semitism
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Re: Tuesday 12th June 2018

Post by PaulfromYorkshire »

Is Dr Lee Ohso's MP?
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Re: Tuesday 12th June 2018

Post by PaulfromYorkshire »

Andrew Adonis
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Philip Lee’s resignation big. I’ve been predicting for some time that anti-Brexit ministers would start resigning. There are more to come
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RogerOThornhill
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Re: Tuesday 12th June 2018

Post by RogerOThornhill »

Who could he be talking about I wonder...
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I don't agree with @DrPhillipLeeMP about the idea of holding a referendum on the Brexit deal. But I admire his honesty and integrity. So much classier to resign on principle when nobody is expecting it, than to threaten resignation but never follow through.

:D
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Re: Tuesday 12th June 2018

Post by PorFavor »

But does Phillip Lee "take people out"? That's what we really all want to know.
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RogerOThornhill
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Re: Tuesday 12th June 2018

Post by RogerOThornhill »

Fair I think.

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It should be possible to: 1/ welcome the reduction in tensions; 2/ applaud a meeting of historic adversaries; 3/ regret the absurd haste, limited preparation, legitimacy boost to Kim, & Trump's effusive language; 4/ observe that the devil remains in "denuclearisation" detail.
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PorFavor
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Re: Tuesday 12th June 2018

Post by PorFavor »

Good morfternoon.
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Re: Tuesday 12th June 2018

Post by PorFavor »

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Is Dr Lee Ohso's MP?
Bracknell - so I think so.
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Re: Tuesday 12th June 2018

Post by PorFavor »

Nick Boles MP

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I don't agree with @DrPhillipLeeMP about the idea of holding a referendum on the Brexit deal. But I admire his honesty and integrity. So much classier to resign on principle when nobody is expecting it, than to threaten resignation but never follow through.
10:27 AM - Jun 12, 2018 (Politics Live, Guardian)
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Willow904
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Re: Tuesday 12th June 2018

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" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Parliamentary of @Arron_banks & @andywigmore kicking off now. And it's already very weird. Massive extra security precautions. No bags in room. Not even water. I've been to pretty much every hearing and this is a first..
Banks already contradicting both himself and his colleagues and evidence already in the public domain by the sounds of it.
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AnatolyKasparov
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Re: Tuesday 12th June 2018

Post by AnatolyKasparov »

PorFavor wrote:But does Phillip Lee "take people out"? That's what we really all want to know.
Given that he is a doctor, maybe we should worry if he does.......
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Re: Tuesday 12th June 2018

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5 - The latest Grieve proposal - enabling parliament to take charge at the last moment. This is the amendment tabled last night, and it is an amendment to Davis’s amendment. It says if there is no agreement by 30 November, there must be a vote on what happens next. And if there is no agreement by 15 February 2019, the government would be bound to follow any “direction” given by MPs in a resolution passed by the Commons.
It's not a bad "meaningful vote" amendment. definitely better than nothing. I assume Labour will support it?
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Re: Tuesday 12th June 2018

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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-north ... d-44452600" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"DUP 'fines politicians for media interviews'"
A DUP insider told the BBC's Nolan Show politicians are forced to pay as much as £1,000 if they break internal protocol on dealing with the press.
The DUP said it operated under a constitution and a code of conduct, passed by its executive.
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Re: Tuesday 12th June 2018

Post by PorFavor »

David Davis is unable to grasp why "appropriate" is not good enough. (And I do think that he is genuinely being thick rather than slippery.)
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Re: Tuesday 12th June 2018

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https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... are_btn_tw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Tuesday 12th June 2018

Post by AnatolyKasparov »

Programme motion for today's votes duly passes, with only two Tories rebelling. Kate Hoey voted with the government :evil:
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Re: Tuesday 12th June 2018

Post by adam »

Very good by Jonathan Freedland on Korea
The Iran deal, which Trump regularly denounced as “horrible” and from which he withdrew last month, consisted of 110 pages of detailed arrangements – including the deployment of International Atomic Energy Agency inspectors, cameras, seals and the like – to verify Tehran’s fulfilment of its nuclear promises. The Singapore text, which barely runs to a page and a half, does not so much as breathe the word “verifiable”. Indeed, Trump could not even get a commitment from Kim to basic transparency, to disclose the scope of North Korea’s current nuclear capacity, both the weapons it has and its manufacturing capability. How can the world know what Pyongyang has got rid of if it doesn’t know what it has?
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Re: Tuesday 12th June 2018

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I loved this Tweet

Gareth Hargreaves
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17m17 minutes ago

#EUWithdrawalBill "We've taken the decision. We've triggered article 50. We've pulled the pin from the grenade ... ah, the door is locked!
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Re: Tuesday 12th June 2018

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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-44452529" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Jack Renshaw admits planning to murder MP Rosie Cooper"
An alleged member of banned far-right group National Action has admitted planning to murder MP Rosie Cooper
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Re: Tuesday 12th June 2018

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adam wrote:Very good by Jonathan Freedland on Korea
The Iran deal, which Trump regularly denounced as “horrible” and from which he withdrew last month, consisted of 110 pages of detailed arrangements – including the deployment of International Atomic Energy Agency inspectors, cameras, seals and the like – to verify Tehran’s fulfilment of its nuclear promises. The Singapore text, which barely runs to a page and a half, does not so much as breathe the word “verifiable”. Indeed, Trump could not even get a commitment from Kim to basic transparency, to disclose the scope of North Korea’s current nuclear capacity, both the weapons it has and its manufacturing capability. How can the world know what Pyongyang has got rid of if it doesn’t know what it has?
Without wishing to be too snide, JF should blame the Israeli regime he consistently supports for the Iran deal being torpedoed by Trump.
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Re: Tuesday 12th June 2018

Post by HindleA »

Worth a repeat,equally as a self admonishment.

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Re: Tuesday 12th June 2018

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These rebels don't seem to be showing much backbone so far.
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Re: Tuesday 12th June 2018

Post by citizenJA »

Good-afternoon, everyone
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Re: Tuesday 12th June 2018

Post by HindleA »

[youtube]gFLJSITYf-8[/youtube]
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Re: Tuesday 12th June 2018

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Willow904 wrote:These rebels don't seem to be showing much backbone so far.
I think it's all orchestrated
Lee's resignation, Grieve's amendment, the votes now
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Re: Tuesday 12th June 2018

Post by HindleA »

Apologies to jellyfish
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Re: Tuesday 12th June 2018

Post by AnatolyKasparov »

Willow904 wrote:These rebels don't seem to be showing much backbone so far.
Genuinely shocked.
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Re: Tuesday 12th June 2018

Post by HindleA »

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... s-show-nhs" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Tuesday 12th June 2018

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More than 2,300 visa applications by doctors looking to work in the UK have been refused in five months, official figures show.
There were 3,597 requests from doctors for tier 2 visas between 6 November and 5 April, but only 34% were successful.
this isn't precedented
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Re: Tuesday 12th June 2018

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NEW: 15-20 Tory rebels were given a personal assurance by the Prime Minister in her Commons office ten minutes before voting started on accepting the thrust of the Grieve amendment and putting it in the bill in the Lords
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Re: Tuesday 12th June 2018

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citizenJA wrote:
More than 2,300 visa applications by doctors looking to work in the UK have been refused in five months, official figures show.
There were 3,597 requests from doctors for tier 2 visas between 6 November and 5 April, but only 34% were successful.
this isn't precedented
"" The 20,700 annual limit for the tier 2 visa was introduced by Theresa May in 2011 when she was home secretary.

Last month, it was reported that the prime minister was blocking requests by at least three government departments to to allow more overseas doctors to come to Britain to fill NHS staff shortages.""


Is she actually insane ?
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Re: Tuesday 12th June 2018

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Meaningful Vote amendment REJECTED 324-298
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Re: Tuesday 12th June 2018

Post by citizenJA »

frog222 wrote:
citizenJA wrote:
More than 2,300 visa applications by doctors looking to work in the UK have been refused in five months, official figures show.
There were 3,597 requests from doctors for tier 2 visas between 6 November and 5 April, but only 34% were successful.
this isn't precedented
"" The 20,700 annual limit for the tier 2 visa was introduced by Theresa May in 2011 when she was home secretary.

Last month, it was reported that the prime minister was blocking requests by at least three government departments to to allow more overseas doctors to come to Britain to fill NHS staff shortages.""


Is she actually insane ?
I've no idea
this is frightening
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Re: Tuesday 12th June 2018

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PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Faisal Islam

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NEW: 15-20 Tory rebels were given a personal assurance by the Prime Minister in her Commons office ten minutes before voting started on accepting the thrust of the Grieve amendment and putting it in the bill in the Lords
Ah, these famous "personal assurances" again.

Are they actually worth a row of beans?
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Re: Tuesday 12th June 2018

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So, has anyone worked out what the Grieve amendment means?
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Re: Tuesday 12th June 2018

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AnatolyKasparov wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Faisal Islam

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NEW: 15-20 Tory rebels were given a personal assurance by the Prime Minister in her Commons office ten minutes before voting started on accepting the thrust of the Grieve amendment and putting it in the bill in the Lords
Ah, these famous "personal assurances" again.

Are they actually worth a row of beans?
'personal assurance by the Prime Minister'????
May has no authority, this is absurd
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Re: Tuesday 12th June 2018

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PaulfromYorkshire wrote:So, has anyone worked out what the Grieve amendment means?
I haven't bothered
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Re: Tuesday 12th June 2018

Post by PaulfromYorkshire »

@JA

LOL

But to be fair, I'm sure Grieve, Lee, Morgan will have made it quite clear that if this amendment does not appear when the Bill goes back to the Lords she's toast.
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Re: Tuesday 12th June 2018

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citizenJA wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:So, has anyone worked out what the Grieve amendment means?
I haven't bothered
Undoubtedly Keir Starmer will provide an accurate interpretation later.

While the usual suspects bleat that if only Labour would oppose Brexit.....

[Sorry I'll stop now ;-)]
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Re: Tuesday 12th June 2018

Post by AnatolyKasparov »

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:@JA

LOL

But to be fair, I'm sure Grieve, Lee, Morgan will have made it quite clear that if this amendment does not appear when the Bill goes back to the Lords she's toast.
That at least may be a possibility, even spineless Tory "moderates" can't be happy to be played for fools indefinitely. Can they?
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Re: Tuesday 12th June 2018

Post by Willow904 »

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:So, has anyone worked out what the Grieve amendment means?
If adopted in its entirety it's very useful (I quoted a synopsis in a previous comment - see above) as it would prevent the government from pursuing a no deal Brexit (although nothing, now article 50 has been triggered, could stop a no deal Brexit being thrust upon us, unless we can unilaterally revoke it).

It needs 5c adopted to have real teeth and it's doubtful whether that bit will make it to the Lords amendment, though. 5a and 5b will still be good checks on negotiation drift, however. The government will have to face Parliament in October, with or without a withdrawal bill, which is good.

Edited - correction, end of November not October. 5c would provide what the Lords wanted, for parliament to decide in a binding vote what happens if no withdrawal agreement is approved by Feb 2019. I don't see that making the final cut, somehow.
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Re: Tuesday 12th June 2018

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Phillip Lee says government concession on 'meaningful vote' makes resigning worthwhile
phoney
all of it orchestrated

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/bl ... 0d612a679d" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Tuesday 12th June 2018

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So exhilarating, isn't it?
no, but It's how a worthless, naked government pretend they've done something important
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Re: Tuesday 12th June 2018

Post by citizenJA »

not just any concession
a significant concession
Locked