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 Post subject: Tuesday 8th January 2019
PostPosted: Tue 08 Jan, 2019 7:04 am 
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PostPosted: Tue 08 Jan, 2019 7:46 am 
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@PaulfromYorkshire

The Common Market 2.0 you posted yesterday is what I would call a single market compromise position. I think it would be a good approach, and I would support something like it but Labour is so far from such a position at the moment that I struggle to see how we get there, and that's before you even consider that the Tories are in charge anyway. Because no one has managed to really push soft Brexit effectively, the call for a further referendum seems to have won the support of those remain inclined voters who may otherwise have been inclined to support a soft Brexit. Far from finding a consensus somewhere in the middle, we seem to be polarizing to the extremes of leaving with no deal or a "people's vote" with the express intention of not leaving at all. I think we have similar ideas of where we think would be a good place to end up, I just have a lot less confidence than you that the Labour leadership are anywhere near the same page, let alone would be able to find a way to get there. May's WA actually pushes us a little in that direction, which is why it's so unpopular with her own side. For me, rejecting the WA will represent a further distancing of our relationship with the EU which will take a lot of work to mend. Needless to say, it's hard to influence such things from opposition, but I've been disappointed that Corbyn has so consistently echoed May's red line of needing to leave the single market to fulfil the referendum mandate. It makes it much harder to achieve a soft Brexit.

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PostPosted: Tue 08 Jan, 2019 9:00 am 
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Morning all.

NHS chiefs tell Theresa May it is time to curb privatisation

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/jan/07/nhs-chiefs-tell-theresa-may-time-to-curb-privatisation-automatic-tendering-care-contract

Quote:
NHS leaders want Theresa May to scrap Conservative legislation that forces the tendering of contracts for care, in a move which could dramatically reduce privatisation of key health services.

In the latest long-term plan, which maps out the NHS’s future over the next 10 years, Simon Stevens, the chief executive of NHS England, demands that the prime minister repeals significant key sections of the Health and Social Care Act 2012.

The document, which Downing Street has endorsed, warns that the legislation, which was pushed through by the then health secretary, Andrew Lansley, despite huge opposition, is damaging the NHS and stopping it from making vital improvements to the care patients receive. It outlines how Lansley’s shake-up has damaged the NHS, which May has previously acknowledged.


Excellent.

Whenever you see the free market ideologues clamouring for a wholesale reform of the NHS. let's just remember what the last one did.

You can see why they weren't impressed by the last latest plan.

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PostPosted: Tue 08 Jan, 2019 9:35 am 
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Is what you're talking about met by the idea of implementing European Parliament and Council Directive 2004/38/EC, (specifically Article 7, I think) and exercising the right to repatriate EU nationals after three months if they have not found work or are otherwise self supporting, and therefore having the UK simply remaining in the EU on free movement of labour terms that were always available to us but we chose never to exercise? That would be a good 'sell' for a remain campaign if there was to be a further referendum with a remain option.

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PostPosted: Tue 08 Jan, 2019 9:54 am 
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re my post above - there's a leap in logic here which never has any evidence to back it up...

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"No consideration has been given to learning from the Social Health Insurance systems in Europe, under which thousands more people survive strokes and common types of cancer each year." says the IEA's @KateAndrs. #NHSLongTermPlan https://iea.org.uk/media/nhs-long-term- ... -outcomes/


There you go - easy-peasy, just switch to an insurance scheme and outcomes automatically improve!

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PostPosted: Tue 08 Jan, 2019 10:14 am 
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Thread.
https://twitter.com/ottocrat/status/1082564424798482432

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Government ministers and apologists saying a referendum should not happen because thugs abused an MP, well done, you’ve just shown those thugs that their approach works and given our democracy and rule of law a(nother) kick in the nuts.

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PostPosted: Tue 08 Jan, 2019 10:22 am 
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gilsey wrote:
Thread.
https://twitter.com/ottocrat/status/1082564424798482432

Chris Kendall


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Government ministers and apologists saying a referendum should not happen because thugs abused an MP, well done, you’ve just shown those thugs that their approach works and given our democracy and rule of law a(nother) kick in the nuts.


Given that a thug murdering an MP wasn't enough to stop the last referendum I'm not entirely convinced by this argument.

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PostPosted: Tue 08 Jan, 2019 10:22 am 
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RogerOThornhill wrote:
"No consideration has been given to learning from the Social Health Insurance systems in Europe"

That's absolutely right, the British neoliberals have always looked to the US for a model of health care, which is why it scares the shit out of the rest of us.

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PostPosted: Tue 08 Jan, 2019 10:38 am 
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The other issue that never gets addressed is how much an insurance scheme would actually cost in administration.

Given that the funding model effectively costs zero right now as it's through existing taxation schemes which would remain even if health was funded from elsewhere, any new scheme must therefore cost a lot more.

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PostPosted: Tue 08 Jan, 2019 11:06 am 
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Another thread. Really like this one.
https://twitter.com/MitchBenn/status/10 ... 7836369921

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So anything short of total War-With-France levels of severance from the EU and the hardcore Brexiters will be crying TREACHERY and BETRAYAL and bewailing how that Remainer bitch May sold us all out.

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PostPosted: Tue 08 Jan, 2019 11:50 am 
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I would rather he did that than selectively quoted opinion polls, certainly.


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PostPosted: Tue 08 Jan, 2019 12:16 pm 
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Willow904 wrote:
@PaulfromYorkshire

The Common Market 2.0 you posted yesterday is what I would call a single market compromise position. I think it would be a good approach, and I would support something like it but Labour is so far from such a position at the moment that I struggle to see how we get there, and that's before you even consider that the Tories are in charge anyway. Because no one has managed to really push soft Brexit effectively, the call for a further referendum seems to have won the support of those remain inclined voters who may otherwise have been inclined to support a soft Brexit. Far from finding a consensus somewhere in the middle, we seem to be polarizing to the extremes of leaving with no deal or a "people's vote" with the express intention of not leaving at all. I think we have similar ideas of where we think would be a good place to end up, I just have a lot less confidence than you that the Labour leadership are anywhere near the same page, let alone would be able to find a way to get there. May's WA actually pushes us a little in that direction, which is why it's so unpopular with her own side. For me, rejecting the WA will represent a further distancing of our relationship with the EU which will take a lot of work to mend. Needless to say, it's hard to influence such things from opposition, but I've been disappointed that Corbyn has so consistently echoed May's red line of needing to leave the single market to fulfil the referendum mandate. It makes it much harder to achieve a soft Brexit.

Thanks Willow

Interestingly, you will have noticed Powell and Halfon's approach being to vote down the Deal on the basis of the political agreement not the WA.

Presumably Common Market 2.0 pretty much meets Starmer's six tests.

It also respects the result of the Referendum (though Rees-Mogg etc. won't agree with that).

So, quite easy for the Labour leadership to line up behind I'd have thought.


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PostPosted: Tue 08 Jan, 2019 1:20 pm 
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PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
Willow904 wrote:
@PaulfromYorkshire

The Common Market 2.0 you posted yesterday is what I would call a single market compromise position. I think it would be a good approach, and I would support something like it but Labour is so far from such a position at the moment that I struggle to see how we get there, and that's before you even consider that the Tories are in charge anyway. Because no one has managed to really push soft Brexit effectively, the call for a further referendum seems to have won the support of those remain inclined voters who may otherwise have been inclined to support a soft Brexit. Far from finding a consensus somewhere in the middle, we seem to be polarizing to the extremes of leaving with no deal or a "people's vote" with the express intention of not leaving at all. I think we have similar ideas of where we think would be a good place to end up, I just have a lot less confidence than you that the Labour leadership are anywhere near the same page, let alone would be able to find a way to get there. May's WA actually pushes us a little in that direction, which is why it's so unpopular with her own side. For me, rejecting the WA will represent a further distancing of our relationship with the EU which will take a lot of work to mend. Needless to say, it's hard to influence such things from opposition, but I've been disappointed that Corbyn has so consistently echoed May's red line of needing to leave the single market to fulfil the referendum mandate. It makes it much harder to achieve a soft Brexit.

Thanks Willow

Interestingly, you will have noticed Powell and Halfon's approach being to vote down the Deal on the basis of the political agreement not the WA.

Presumably Common Market 2.0 pretty much meets Starmer's six tests.

It also respects the result of the Referendum (though Rees-Mogg etc. won't agree with that).

So, quite easy for the Labour leadership to line up behind I'd have thought.


Well I suppose he may have changed his mind, but Corbyn in the past has been more in the Rees-Mogg camp of insisting that remaining in the single market wouldn't respect the referendum result, so although it is certainly possible the Labour leadership may end up coming behind soft Brexit, it certainly doesn't feel like something they are trying very hard to persuade voters to support, at least not so far. Your optimism is preferable to my scepticism, however, so I'll just say you're right! :)

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PostPosted: Tue 08 Jan, 2019 1:57 pm 
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Good-afternoon, everyone


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PostPosted: Tue 08 Jan, 2019 2:06 pm 
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Willow904 wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
Willow904 wrote:
@PaulfromYorkshire

The Common Market 2.0 you posted yesterday is what I would call a single market compromise position. I think it would be a good approach, and I would support something like it but Labour is so far from such a position at the moment that I struggle to see how we get there, and that's before you even consider that the Tories are in charge anyway. Because no one has managed to really push soft Brexit effectively, the call for a further referendum seems to have won the support of those remain inclined voters who may otherwise have been inclined to support a soft Brexit. Far from finding a consensus somewhere in the middle, we seem to be polarizing to the extremes of leaving with no deal or a "people's vote" with the express intention of not leaving at all. I think we have similar ideas of where we think would be a good place to end up, I just have a lot less confidence than you that the Labour leadership are anywhere near the same page, let alone would be able to find a way to get there. May's WA actually pushes us a little in that direction, which is why it's so unpopular with her own side. For me, rejecting the WA will represent a further distancing of our relationship with the EU which will take a lot of work to mend. Needless to say, it's hard to influence such things from opposition, but I've been disappointed that Corbyn has so consistently echoed May's red line of needing to leave the single market to fulfil the referendum mandate. It makes it much harder to achieve a soft Brexit.

Thanks Willow

Interestingly, you will have noticed Powell and Halfon's approach being to vote down the Deal on the basis of the political agreement not the WA.

Presumably Common Market 2.0 pretty much meets Starmer's six tests.

It also respects the result of the Referendum (though Rees-Mogg etc. won't agree with that).

So, quite easy for the Labour leadership to line up behind I'd have thought.


Well I suppose he may have changed his mind, but Corbyn in the past has been more in the Rees-Mogg camp of insisting that remaining in the single market wouldn't respect the referendum result, so although it is certainly possible the Labour leadership may end up coming behind soft Brexit, it certainly doesn't feel like something they are trying very hard to persuade voters to support, at least not so far. Your optimism is preferable to my scepticism, however, so I'll just say you're right! :)

:lol:

We just have to get past the "Meaningful" Vote I think. Once that has failed, which everyone seems to be saying it still will, I think it's much easier, and yes more democratic, to come forward with alternatives. Gardiner was certainly focusing on a consensus outcome in his Ridge appearance.


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PostPosted: Tue 08 Jan, 2019 2:09 pm 
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Yep, assuming next Tuesday's vote goes against the PM then various strategies become possible.


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PostPosted: Tue 08 Jan, 2019 3:05 pm 
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Quote:
Quote:
Ofgem urges customers to take meter readings after ninth small UK supplier goes bust in a year
https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... -the-lurch
The collapse matters to more than just the firm’s customers, as all households bear the cost for moving customers from failed firms to other suppliers.
A Guardian analysis found that, before Economy Energy, consumers already faced a bill of at least £80m from other failed gas and electricity suppliers.
This is a big deal. It's one more thing directly impacting most people in the UK. Some have wealth enough riding out current market catastrophes but most people can't afford a series of price spikes without negative consequences. Pinched and meager living due to a ruling government's jackass economic philosophy is crap.


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PostPosted: Tue 08 Jan, 2019 3:09 pm 
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AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Yep, assuming next Tuesday's vote goes against the PM then various strategies become possible.

Do you think May might take the vote off the agenda again?


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PostPosted: Tue 08 Jan, 2019 3:10 pm 
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https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ers-brexit


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PostPosted: Tue 08 Jan, 2019 3:42 pm 
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HindleA wrote:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/08/the-way-the-eu-treated-the-uk-opened-my-eyes-bolsovers-brexit
Lorrie Moore wrote:
“You have a choice," she told the class. "The whorish emptiness of lies or the straightlaced horrors of truth.”
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PostPosted: Tue 08 Jan, 2019 3:46 pm 
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HindleA wrote:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/08/the-way-the-eu-treated-the-uk-opened-my-eyes-bolsovers-brexit

Quote:
he voted remain in the referendum but has now changed his mind. “I would vote to leave now because the way the EU has treated the UK on its exit has opened my eyes up a little bit.

Can you imagine what we'd be saying if we were staying and another country had chosen to leave? Of course we'd be really nice to them, not like that nasty EU. :roll:

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PostPosted: Tue 08 Jan, 2019 4:36 pm 
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gilsey wrote:
HindleA wrote:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/08/the-way-the-eu-treated-the-uk-opened-my-eyes-bolsovers-brexit

Quote:
he voted remain in the referendum but has now changed his mind. “I would vote to leave now because the way the EU has treated the UK on its exit has opened my eyes up a little bit.

Can you imagine what we'd be saying if we were staying and another country had chosen to leave? Of course we'd be really nice to them, not like that nasty EU. :roll:


I'm really struggling to see what's so unfair about expecting us to pay Nigel Farage's pension, let alone expecting us to respect the Good Friday Agreement. I'm starting to feel like I live in another universe rather than just a different part of the country.

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PostPosted: Tue 08 Jan, 2019 4:57 pm 
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Yep, same here


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PostPosted: Tue 08 Jan, 2019 5:07 pm 
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citizenJA wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Yep, assuming next Tuesday's vote goes against the PM then various strategies become possible.

Do you think May might take the vote off the agenda again?


Not if she wants a WA ratified in time for 29th March. Postpone it again and there's no point having a vote on the WA at all, you may as well movie straight on to plan B. (Whatever that might be).

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PostPosted: Tue 08 Jan, 2019 5:18 pm 
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citizenJA wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Yep, assuming next Tuesday's vote goes against the PM then various strategies become possible.

Do you think May might take the vote off the agenda again?


In that event I would expect the opposition to move a no confidence vote, with considerable justification.

Though she said on Sunday it was definitely going ahead, so........


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PostPosted: Tue 08 Jan, 2019 6:58 pm 
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Yes 303
No 296

Government loss.


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PostPosted: Tue 08 Jan, 2019 6:58 pm 
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Good morfternoon.


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PostPosted: Tue 08 Jan, 2019 7:05 pm 
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PorFavor wrote:
Yes 303
No 296

Government loss.


This is the "Cooper amendment", presumably?


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PostPosted: Tue 08 Jan, 2019 8:51 pm 
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AnatolyKasparov wrote:
PorFavor wrote:
Yes 303
No 296

Government loss.


This is the "Cooper amendment", presumably?


Yes. Sorry about that!


Edited to add -

Speaking from the potential lorry park that is Portsmouth.


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PostPosted: Tue 08 Jan, 2019 9:07 pm 
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https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... -into-care


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PostPosted: Tue 08 Jan, 2019 9:28 pm 
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CRACE! https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... john-crace


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PostPosted: Tue 08 Jan, 2019 10:44 pm 
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Goodnight, everyone
love,
cJA


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