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 Post subject: Monday 14th January 2019
PostPosted: Mon 14 Jan, 2019 6:51 am 
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Morning all.


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PostPosted: Mon 14 Jan, 2019 7:03 am 
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Aaargh,foiled again.


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PostPosted: Mon 14 Jan, 2019 7:14 am 
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https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... eld-begins


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PostPosted: Mon 14 Jan, 2019 7:25 am 
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Good-morning, everyone


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PostPosted: Mon 14 Jan, 2019 7:33 am 
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HindleA wrote:
Aaargh,foiled again.

Sorry, couldn't sleep.


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PostPosted: Mon 14 Jan, 2019 7:34 am 
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refitman wrote:
HindleA wrote:
Aaargh,foiled again.

Sorry, couldn't sleep.
same here


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PostPosted: Mon 14 Jan, 2019 7:57 am 
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Unhinged Mersey vetch advocates "No Deal" (6,5).


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PostPosted: Mon 14 Jan, 2019 7:59 am 
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Gilsey's post last night linked below is interesting
viewtopic.php?p=207694#p207694

While I appreciate the careful thought and integrity of potential choices offered on a second referendum, I'm troubled by the content and sequence suggested
Quote:
Organising the ‘Second’ Referendum
http://blogs.sussex.ac.uk/uktpo/2018/12 ... eferendum/
Please correct me if I'm wrong but the potential first question posed first seems to be the same question being asked of MPs - May's 'Deal' or 'No Deal'
MPs are shoved into a corner with May's choices and it's wrong
Asking the electorate the same question first, May's Deal or No Deal, forcing people to choose between those two before asking whether or not people want to remain or continue on leaving doesn't seem right
I can't phrase this any better at the moment


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PostPosted: Mon 14 Jan, 2019 8:10 am 
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Quote:
Theresa May will make one final appeal to the Commons to pass her Brexit deal, amid speculation among many Conservative MPs that the expected defeat could spark a cross-party plan or moves to oust the prime minister.

May is to start her most crucial week as prime minister with a speech at a factory in Stoke-on-Trent...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... rexit-deal
leave us alone


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PostPosted: Mon 14 Jan, 2019 8:11 am 
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a shameless, cynical, lying piece of work


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PostPosted: Mon 14 Jan, 2019 8:26 am 
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The choices available aren't limited to 'May's Deal' or 'No Deal'


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PostPosted: Mon 14 Jan, 2019 8:47 am 
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Quote:
UK failed to enforce EU air quality standards – what will happen after Brexit?
Government has astonishing record of fighting demands to meet legal obligations
Quote:
The government has set out new plans on air pollution that ministers say go beyond existing EU rules, with a pledge
to improve air quality nationwide to the standards the World Health Organization (WH0) recommends.
Air pollution plans improve on EU rules, government claims
It's offensive how stupid they must think I am
worthless Tory government promises and pledges


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PostPosted: Mon 14 Jan, 2019 9:12 am 
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https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... e-thinking


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PostPosted: Mon 14 Jan, 2019 9:34 am 
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Morning all.

Well this is interesting...you need to go through the links!

https://twitter.com/StevePeers/status/1 ... 6095982592

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PostPosted: Mon 14 Jan, 2019 10:11 am 
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I saw that last night, May really is shameless.

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PostPosted: Mon 14 Jan, 2019 10:19 am 
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citizenJA wrote:
The choices available aren't limited to 'May's Deal' or 'No Deal'

Would you be more comfortable if it said 'with the withdrawal agreement and transition period' or 'without the WA'? Serious question, not being snarky.
They're not voting on the future relationship for all Labour's disingenuousness.

Why isn't disingenuity a word?

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PostPosted: Mon 14 Jan, 2019 10:40 am 
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gilsey wrote:
citizenJA wrote:
The choices available aren't limited to 'May's Deal' or 'No Deal'

Would you be more comfortable if it said 'with the withdrawal agreement and transition period' or 'without the WA'? Serious question, not being snarky.
They're not voting on the future relationship for all Labour's disingenuousness.

Why isn't disingenuity a word?
I didn't think you're being snarky and even if you were, so what? I trust you. We'd work it out.

The withdrawal agreement May has patched up with the EU allows May's government to continue
I'm unable to trust May and her allies in Parliament


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PostPosted: Mon 14 Jan, 2019 10:43 am 
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Quote:
Faisal Islam

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In an eve of vote speech tomorrow in a top pro-Brexit area PM will say, acc to Downing St “based on the evidence of the last week, she now believes that MPs blocking Brexit is a more likely outcome than leaving with no deal”.

She's given up on trying to get Labour to vote for it and is aiming all her fire at the ERG, in other words.

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PostPosted: Mon 14 Jan, 2019 10:55 am 
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gilsey wrote:
citizenJA wrote:
The choices available aren't limited to 'May's Deal' or 'No Deal'

Would you be more comfortable if it said 'with the withdrawal agreement and transition period' or 'without the WA'? Serious question, not being snarky.
They're not voting on the future relationship for all Labour's disingenuousness.

Why isn't disingenuity a word?


There's an element to Labour's strategy which is almost akin to arguing they'd do a better job of polishing a turd than the Tories. For those that can see the turd for what it is, this is somewhat less than convincing because, as everybody knows, you can't polish a turd.

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PostPosted: Mon 14 Jan, 2019 11:12 am 
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gilsey wrote:
Quote:
Faisal Islam

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In an eve of vote speech tomorrow in a top pro-Brexit area PM will say, acc to Downing St “based on the evidence of the last week, she now believes that MPs blocking Brexit is a more likely outcome than leaving with no deal”.

She's given up on trying to get Labour to vote for it and is aiming all her fire at the ERG, in other words.


And that strategy suggests its all about minimising the scale of the defeat now.


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PostPosted: Mon 14 Jan, 2019 11:31 am 
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AnatolyKasparov wrote:
gilsey wrote:
Quote:
Faisal Islam

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In an eve of vote speech tomorrow in a top pro-Brexit area PM will say, acc to Downing St “based on the evidence of the last week, she now believes that MPs blocking Brexit is a more likely outcome than leaving with no deal”.

She's given up on trying to get Labour to vote for it and is aiming all her fire at the ERG, in other words.


And that strategy suggests its all about minimising the scale of the defeat now.

Indeed - unusually I listened to Today this morning. There was a piece of analysis that suggested that if the defeat is modest, May will be able to go back to Brussels to secure further concessions, but that if the defeat is calamitous Brussels will essentially abandon her.

So maybe it's about getting more pro-EU Tories on board too. The less Moggy Moggists and the less Soubryesque Soubrettes if you like.


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PostPosted: Mon 14 Jan, 2019 11:34 am 
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AnatolyKasparov wrote:
And that strategy suggests its all about minimising the scale of the defeat now.


Indeed. Exhibit A...

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Further proof that the UK is a banana monarchy: after being appointed a Privy Counsellor by Theresa May, Tory MP Edward Leigh has announced he will vote for her Brexit deal.

9:44 AM - 13 Jan 2019

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PostPosted: Mon 14 Jan, 2019 11:37 am 
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Quote:
One of the neglected aspects of May’s political style is that she is happy to say things that are untrue. Although there is a widespread belief that this is part of the average politician’s toolkit, most politicians rarely lie and when they do, do so awkwardly.

But May does it frequently and with great ease.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/s ... exit-lying
Quote:
The problem – as far as escaping a no deal Brexit goes – is that the belief that May is less than truthful is widely shared at Westminster. It’s one reason why some Conservative MPs ignored her pledge not to fight another election to vote against her in their confidence vote and part of the reason why many pro-Brexit MPs don’t trust her assurances about the deal. They feel that she misled them about the December 2017 agreement, is still trying to pull the wool over their eyes as far as the transition goes and that they can’t trust her.

But it’s also a problem for everyone, regardless of how they feel about the question of Remain vs Leave. Parliament’s Brexit factions are about to enter a high-stakes game of bluff and double-bluff: and that none of those factions believes they can trust the Prime Minister only adds to the possibility that we might yet have a no deal Brexit by mistake.
She's a minority government PM without a mandate and a serial liar. What can we do?


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PostPosted: Mon 14 Jan, 2019 11:48 am 
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Quote:
Q: The EU are willing to extend article 50 until July. Do you rule that out?

May says she does not believe the government should extend article 50 or have a referendum.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/bl ... dc52e6e599
You could but choose not to
got it


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PostPosted: Mon 14 Jan, 2019 11:49 am 
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Quote:
And that’s it. May has finished.
hallelujah


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PostPosted: Mon 14 Jan, 2019 11:50 am 
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RogerOThornhill wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:
And that strategy suggests its all about minimising the scale of the defeat now.


Indeed. Exhibit A...

Quote:
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Further proof that the UK is a banana monarchy: after being appointed a Privy Counsellor by Theresa May, Tory MP Edward Leigh has announced he will vote for her Brexit deal.

9:44 AM - 13 Jan 2019


I mean, that's almost Trump-like in its sheer shamelessness innit?


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PostPosted: Mon 14 Jan, 2019 12:10 pm 
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May is superficially more plausible than Trump and under no suspicion of being a Kremlin asset, although her behaviour on brexit would be no different if she were.
That's as far as the differences go imo.

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PostPosted: Mon 14 Jan, 2019 12:11 pm 
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Willow904 wrote:
as everybody knows, you can't polish a turd.

I did see a tweet the other day saying you can sprinkle glitter on it. :D

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PostPosted: Mon 14 Jan, 2019 12:13 pm 
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PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
if the defeat is calamitous Brussels will essentially abandon her.


Easier for them to abandon her that it is for us.

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PostPosted: Mon 14 Jan, 2019 12:13 pm 
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Quote:
Pregnant MP Tulip Siddiq today revealed she will delay the birth of her child in order to vote against Theresa May’s Brexit deal tomorrow.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politic ... 37946.html


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PostPosted: Mon 14 Jan, 2019 12:13 pm 
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gilsey wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
if the defeat is calamitous Brussels will essentially abandon her.


Easier for them to abandon her that it is for us.

Indeed!


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PostPosted: Mon 14 Jan, 2019 12:16 pm 
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RogerOThornhill wrote:
Morning all.

Well this is interesting...you need to go through the links!

https://twitter.com/StevePeers/status/1 ... 6095982592

A twitter goldmine.



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Here's what some Brexiteers said about the result of that referendum in 1997:

Nigel Evans: "It would have been better if the percentage majority in favour had been in double figures. That would have settled the issue once and for all, but it did not and it remains unsettled."

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PostPosted: Mon 14 Jan, 2019 12:23 pm 
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Apparently she left the Wales bit out.

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PostPosted: Mon 14 Jan, 2019 12:25 pm 
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Yes, I'm not watching Theresa May's Stoke speech. If I want to see a stubborn never-say-die effort that will almost certainly end in failure this week, I'll stick with the tennis.

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PostPosted: Mon 14 Jan, 2019 12:29 pm 
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PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
Quote:
Pregnant MP Tulip Siddiq today revealed she will delay the birth of her child in order to vote against Theresa May’s Brexit deal tomorrow.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politic ... 37946.html


Ah, its a Caesarean - I did think that was giving her almost superhuman powers :D


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PostPosted: Mon 14 Jan, 2019 12:52 pm 
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gilsey wrote:
Apparently she left the Wales bit out.

Whether she did or didn't, it's all over the news! The BBC have
Quote:
We've never had a referendum in the United Kingdom that we've not honoured the result of

which deserves attention for its utter inelegance if nothing else!


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PostPosted: Mon 14 Jan, 2019 1:04 pm 
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PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
gilsey wrote:
Apparently she left the Wales bit out.

Whether she did or didn't, it's all over the news! The BBC have
Quote:
We've never had a referendum in the United Kingdom that we've not honoured the result of

which deserves attention for its utter inelegance if nothing else!


Painful, isn't it?


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PostPosted: Mon 14 Jan, 2019 1:06 pm 
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The DUP and the "Brexiteers" say that, despite the latest letter from the EU, "Nothing has changed".

Sky News are, however, bizarrely suggesting that it might make a difference to some MPs' voting intentions.


Last edited by PorFavor on Mon 14 Jan, 2019 1:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon 14 Jan, 2019 1:06 pm 
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a thought experiment
How would I feel about May and her government revoking Article 50 this week?
Confused and elated


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PostPosted: Mon 14 Jan, 2019 1:12 pm 
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My post (above) edited to add the second paragrph.


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PostPosted: Mon 14 Jan, 2019 1:13 pm 
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It would be a total and absolute humiliation for them, so could be celebrated on that level as well as being a "good" outcome more generally.


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PostPosted: Mon 14 Jan, 2019 1:14 pm 
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Somebody's just resigned.


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PostPosted: Mon 14 Jan, 2019 1:33 pm 
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PorFavor wrote:
Somebody's just resigned.


Government whip Gareth Johnson...

https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/ ... 6974488576

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PostPosted: Mon 14 Jan, 2019 1:47 pm 
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AnatolyKasparov wrote:
It would be a total and absolute humiliation for them, so could be celebrated on that level as well as being a "good" outcome more generally.
It could also salvage their electoral chances

A bad boss makes workers endure harder workplace conditions
the workers are discontented and make plans to withdraw their labour
the boss starts blasting loud music
the workers complain about the loud music and demand it stops
the boss offers a referendum on continued loud music or stopping loud music
the workers vote the music stops
the boss stares at the ground and grudgingly agrees to stop the loud music
the workers are cheerful they've won
yet the workers still endure harder workplace conditions but don't complain about that anymore

Tory Brexit is just one of their god awful ideas


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PostPosted: Mon 14 Jan, 2019 1:54 pm 
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I've been anxious about current affairs, especially Brexit, for a long time but Tory government aren't good enough to lead nation and people regardless of what happens with Brexit
I've noticed when consistently bad leadership do something rather unexpectedly good for people, many people are justifiably pleased but stop when the immediate dangers are passed
I'm not we shouldn't be pleased when good happens
I'm saying we need to continue working for more than just unexpectedly good


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PostPosted: Mon 14 Jan, 2019 2:14 pm 
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Most people have to trade their time and effort for necessary and nice things
It takes a lot of time and energy demanding better

One of the last times I drove a car, I spent nearly three hours with hundreds of other people on a freeway in California at a dead stop. Most of us didn't get out of our vehicles because there wasn't any indication how long we'd be stuck there. The young people had their devices out trying to understand why we were at a standstill. The closest we got to an explanation was someone armed with a screwdriver had threatened pet store employees somewhere in the area and had fled the scene of this crime. Authorities had closed off roads in pursuit of this perpetrator. Suddenly the road cleared and we could drive on to our destinations. If I were planning to go to a union meeting, a non-violent protest rally or care for a friend in need, I wouldn't have been able to do so after having spent so long on a freeway with no way out. Not only was the time wasted, it was stressful as hell. I remember thinking about how easy it seemed to be to shut down freedom I'd taken for granted. I understand things of this nature don't happen all the time but I see nothing preventing mild catastrophes and worse. It seems a great way to keep people exhausted and docile.


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PostPosted: Mon 14 Jan, 2019 3:36 pm 
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Quote:
MPs voting down May’s Brexit deal are the elite revolting against democracy

I intend to call this for what it is. Those on all sides of the House of Commons who try, against our manifestos, against the promises we made, to undermine Brexit are not martyrs. They are representatives of an elite that is trying to block Britain leaving the EU. They are not “taking back control”. They are usurping power. This is a revolt of the elites against popular democracy.

- Bob Seely
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Isle of Wight
oh my gracious lord


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PostPosted: Mon 14 Jan, 2019 3:37 pm 
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so, there are worse things than being stuck on a freeway for three hours going nowhere


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PostPosted: Mon 14 Jan, 2019 3:58 pm 
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https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... -bickering


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PostPosted: Mon 14 Jan, 2019 4:10 pm 
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HindleA wrote:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/14/i-wont-ever-vote-again-stoke-bemoans-brexit-bickering


From the article -

Quote:
As Theresa May swept on to a factory floor on the edge of Stoke,


I, naturally, misread that . . .



Edited to add -

PTO


Last edited by PorFavor on Mon 14 Jan, 2019 5:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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