Tuesday 15th January 2019

Post by **refitman** » Tue 15 Jan, 2019 6:55 am

Morning all.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 15 Jan, 2019 7:30 am

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... sers-voice" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Austerity is denying patients and care service users a voice

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 15 Jan, 2019 7:42 am

I have decided to withdraw my amendment to the Government’s Withdrawal Agreement motion today which would have rejected both the PM’s deal and leaving with no deal.

Worth reading the whole thread

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HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 15 Jan, 2019 8:11 am

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... unions-say" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 15 Jan, 2019 8:14 am

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2 ... ssed-aside" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 15 Jan, 2019 8:17 am

Good-morning, everyone

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 15 Jan, 2019 8:20 am

https://www.parliament.uk/business/publ ... /HCWS1249/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 15 Jan, 2019 9:26 am

HindleA wrote:https://www.parliament.uk/business/publ ... /HCWS1249/

I see
it sounds like either both are pensioners or neither is a pensioner

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 15 Jan, 2019 9:51 am

Morning all

An interesting viewpoint from DAG...how to pacify both sides.

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PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 15 Jan, 2019 10:50 am

Good morfternoon.

German government denies report saying Merkel has offered May new assurances

The German government has denied a story in today’s Sun claiming that Angela Merkel, the German chancellor, has given Theresa May an assurance that the EU will offer the UK new assurances if May loses the vote. (Politics Live, Guardian)

Unlike the "Sun" to mis-report things.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 15 Jan, 2019 11:01 am

JUST IN: German Foreign Minister Maas says if May's Brexit deal is rejected by parliament today there could be new talks with the EU

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/li ... 6a86827fb1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

two minutes ago

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 15 Jan, 2019 11:20 am

citizenJA wrote:
JUST IN: German Foreign Minister Maas says if May's Brexit deal is rejected by parliament today there could be new talks with the EU

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/li ... 6a86827fb1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
two minutes ago

Thanks. Not the same thing as that described by the "Sun", though, I'd suggest.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Tue 15 Jan, 2019 11:24 am

citizenJA wrote:
HindleA wrote:https://www.parliament.uk/business/publ ... /HCWS1249/
I see
it sounds like either both are pensioners or neither is a pensioner

Previously pensioners were protected by allowing a household with a pensioner to access pension credit and pensioner housing benefit, which provide greater security and reduced conditionality than working age benefits, even if their spouse was still of working age.

This has been reversed so now the pensioner will be vulnerable to the conditionality and reduced stability and security of the working age social security system which their younger partner will be expected to engage with, especially in terms of housing and housing benefit, something I believe HindleA has previously predicted we are inevitably creeping towards under the current government.

Slipped through on the quiet, it seems.

Paul Lewis
@paullewismoney
Quiet announcement of huge change for older couples. Now, if EITHER is over state pension age can claim pension credit. From 15 May, BOTH must be over state pension age (new claims). Long threatened, often deferred. Perhaps we’re all looking the other way? (link: http://bit.ly/2SPHfzw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) bit.ly/2SPHfzw

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 15 Jan, 2019 11:27 am

PorFavor wrote:
citizenJA wrote:
JUST IN: German Foreign Minister Maas says if May's Brexit deal is rejected by parliament today there could be new talks with the EU

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/li ... 6a86827fb1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
two minutes ago
Thanks. Not the same thing as that described by the "Sun", though, I'd suggest.

I didn't think they were the same
I should've waited a bit before posting it

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 15 Jan, 2019 11:30 am

Ditto. I didn't think that you'd think that I thought that you thought that they were the same!

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 15 Jan, 2019 11:37 am

Anybody else getting site gremlins this morning?

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 15 Jan, 2019 11:39 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Anybody else getting site gremlins this morning?

No. It would be infuriating and frustrating for that to happen on today of all days. But there's still time . . .

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 15 Jan, 2019 11:41 am

Voting against May's withdrawal agreement isn't bringing on a 'no-deal Brexit'.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 15 Jan, 2019 11:43 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Anybody else getting site gremlins this morning?

I don't think so

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 15 Jan, 2019 11:45 am

Linux operating system here is consistently twitchy
OS problems may not be what you're referring to

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Tue 15 Jan, 2019 11:53 am

citizenJA wrote:Voting against May's withdrawal agreement isn't bringing on a 'no-deal Brexit'.

No, but voting it through would guarantee no deal Brexit wouldn't happen, whilst voting against it leaves the possibility open.
I'm sympathetic both to opposition MPs who feel the risks of rejecting a WA are too high to chance it and also those who can't bring themselves to vote in support of May's government. Neither choice is an easy or straightforward one imo.
Remember, of the 100 or so Tory MPs likely to rebel against their government many are doing so because they want a harder Brexit than the WA provides and they will get what they want if Parliament is unable to form a majority for any other option, something it is still unclear whether it is able to do.

I just hope the Labour leadership have talked enough across party lines to establish which route forward has the most potential for a positive outcome.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Tue 15 Jan, 2019 11:55 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Anybody else getting site gremlins this morning?

No, but I did last week, first time in ages.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 15 Jan, 2019 12:39 pm

May apparently saying that no matter how bad tonight's defeat might be, she will push on with her deal as it is "the only option".

A classic case of just asserting something not making it true......

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 15 Jan, 2019 12:49 pm

"where there is security may there be insecurity"
The non comparable comparative fairness reduction process continues.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 15 Jan, 2019 12:51 pm

Targeted is correct,but not in a good way.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 15 Jan, 2019 1:03 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:May apparently saying that no matter how bad tonight's defeat might be, she will push on with her deal as it is "the only option".

A classic case of just asserting something not making it true......

It's not an indication of strength, her talking like that. Someone with influence with her ought to let her know.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 15 Jan, 2019 2:08 pm

I can't listen to Geoffrey Cox. Too irritating.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 15 Jan, 2019 2:24 pm

Al Shabaab terrorism attack in Nairobi, Kenya (Sky TV news).

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 15 Jan, 2019 2:32 pm

As mentioned on Twitter, today is the 100th anniversary of Rosa Luxemburg's murder. With the collusion of the SPD, to their eternal shame.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 15 Jan, 2019 2:44 pm

Beth Rigby (Sky TV news) is saying that Theresa May's Plan B is (yes, you've guessed it) Plan A.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 15 Jan, 2019 3:00 pm

I'd rather have the coalition of chaos option, please

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 15 Jan, 2019 3:57 pm

Ken Clarke is voting for May's agreement? Is that accurate?

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 15 Jan, 2019 3:58 pm

I find that ominous

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 15 Jan, 2019 4:13 pm

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/m ... ssion=true" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Sky'sGoneOut · Post by **Sky'sGoneOut** » Tue 15 Jan, 2019 4:25 pm

Brexit Quiz.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ing-brexit

Got 13/15, questions 7 and 10 got me.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 15 Jan, 2019 4:39 pm

Sky'sGoneOut wrote:Brexit Quiz.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ing-brexit

Got 13/15, questions 7 and 10 got me.

I got the Mel Stride one wrong.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Tue 15 Jan, 2019 4:46 pm

citizenJA wrote:Ken Clarke is voting for May's agreement? Is that accurate?

Yes, I remember him saying he would vote for it a while ago. The agreement with the backstop pushes us towards a closer relationship with the EU than May was originally trying to achieve, so this may have persuaded him to backing it.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Tue 15 Jan, 2019 4:57 pm

Willow904 wrote:
citizenJA wrote:Voting against May's withdrawal agreement isn't bringing on a 'no-deal Brexit'.
No, but voting it through would guarantee no deal Brexit wouldn't happen.

It guarantees it won’t happen on 29/3, surely that’s all. Another cliff edge 31 Dec 2020, and then perhaps another in 2022.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 15 Jan, 2019 5:01 pm

Willow904 wrote:
citizenJA wrote:Ken Clarke is voting for May's agreement? Is that accurate?
Yes, I remember him saying he would vote for it a while ago. The agreement with the backstop pushes us towards a closer relationship with the EU than May was originally trying to achieve, so this may have persuaded him to backing it.

Clarke speaks his mind, but has never been much of a rebel I'd say.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 15 Jan, 2019 5:22 pm

Sky'sGoneOut wrote:Brexit Quiz.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ing-brexit

Got 13/15, questions 7 and 10 got me.

I got 10/15

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 15 Jan, 2019 7:00 pm

Unimpressed by Jeremy Corbyn's contribution.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Tue 15 Jan, 2019 7:12 pm

gilsey wrote:
Willow904 wrote:
citizenJA wrote:Voting against May's withdrawal agreement isn't bringing on a 'no-deal Brexit'.
No, but voting it through would guarantee no deal Brexit wouldn't happen.
It guarantees it won’t happen on 29/3, surely that’s all. Another cliff edge 31 Dec 2020, and then perhaps another in 2022.

Except if we hit the Dec 2020 deadline without a finalised future deal, that's when the backstop kicks in, keeping us in the Customs Union. Or at least that's my understanding. Isn't that what the hard Brexiters don't like? That the WA locks us into some kind of customs agreement as a bare minimum, because they know the EU won't accept a hard border in Ireland and they and the DUP won't accept a major border in the Irish Sea and in reality there is no technological solution to get around this. So the only pure "no deal" moment is the upcoming one in March, because that backstop will be legally binding and can only be superseded by something both we and the EU agree on.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 15 Jan, 2019 7:39 pm

Ayes: 202

Noes: 432

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 15 Jan, 2019 7:43 pm

PorFavor wrote:Unimpressed by Jeremy Corbyn's contribution.

Looks like this didn't matter overmuch, at the end of the day.

Brutal result.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Tue 15 Jan, 2019 7:55 pm

May very calm in response.

There is perhaps some relief for her in turning the impossible conundrum over to Parliament. She's just a passenger now, like the rest of us.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 15 Jan, 2019 7:55 pm

I like Tusk's idea a lot

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 15 Jan, 2019 7:59 pm

[youtube]bcd3kN656zg[/youtube]

Edited to add -

Words by T May?

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 15 Jan, 2019 8:04 pm

Frank Field, Kate Hoey and John Mann voted for.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 15 Jan, 2019 8:14 pm

May has completely ignored every remain voter in her speech
again

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 15 Jan, 2019 8:23 pm

Just returned from a school meeting and I seemed to have missed something important...