Monday 18th March 2019
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Welcome to FTN. New posters are welcome to join the conversation. You can follow us on Twitter @FlythenestHaven You are responsible for the content you post. This is a public forum. Treat it as if you are speaking in a crowded room. Site admin and Moderators are volunteers who will respond as quickly as they are able to when made aware of any complaints. Please do not post copyrighted material without the original authors permission.
Monday 18th March 2019
Morning all.
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Re: Monday 18th March 2019
Morning.
So, on Brexit all the talk seems to be will she or won't she?
Bring the "deal" back for a third vote.
I've been reflecting on Hammond's comments and what their target was.
So, on Brexit all the talk seems to be will she or won't she?
Bring the "deal" back for a third vote.
I've been reflecting on Hammond's comments and what their target was.
“It’s the final chance to do this deal without having to have a long extension of the Article 50 period - I’m clear about that.”
“We will only bring the deal back if we are confident that enough of our colleagues and the DUP are prepared to support it so that we can get it through Parliament.”
“It would be difficult to justify having a vote if you knew we were going to lose it,” he explained. “But the aim would be to get the support behind the Prime Minister.”
Re: Monday 18th March 2019
Good-morning, everyone
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Re: Monday 18th March 2019
So, is he expecting there will be a vote and trying to get the ERG on board?
Or, is he softening us all up for the vote to be pulled?
Or both because he doesn't know what will happen?
Or, is he softening us all up for the vote to be pulled?
Or both because he doesn't know what will happen?
Re: Monday 18th March 2019
I dislike having to fear and speculate about our governmentPaulfromYorkshire wrote:So, is he expecting there will be a vote and trying to get the ERG on board?
Or, is he softening us all up for the vote to be pulled?
Or both because he doesn't know what will happen?
Re: Monday 18th March 2019
He's not exactly May's best mate, so probably that.PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
Or both because he doesn't know what will happen?
One world, like it or not - John Martyn
Re: Monday 18th March 2019
Wren-Lewis.
Apologies if we've had it already, but it's so good it's worth linking twice anyway.
https://mainlymacro.blogspot.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Apologies if we've had it already, but it's so good it's worth linking twice anyway.
https://mainlymacro.blogspot.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
the problem is that the political right in both countries were not playing by the same rules. They had a quite different strategy, which was to shift policy on issues like taxation and the size of the state to the right, and instead try and win elections by pushing a socially conservative agenda. There is no triangulation here, but instead an attempt to hide a right wing agenda by starting a culture war.
One world, like it or not - John Martyn
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Re: Monday 18th March 2019
The "idea" seems to be that if May thinks she will lose, the vote is put back until next week and then framed as "either my deal or a two year A50 extension".
Can't possibly see that going wrong, no sirree.
Can't possibly see that going wrong, no sirree.
"IS TONTY BLAIR BEHIND THIS???!!!!111???!!!"
Re: Monday 18th March 2019
The withdrawal agreement is more road for May's can, she'll grimly continue whatever the cost, as long as it's a Tory government
She'll willingly pass the PM baton to another Tory, no problem
Vacant, nebulous and deceitful behaviour have all the characteristics of preoccupied people up to who know's what
She'll willingly pass the PM baton to another Tory, no problem
Vacant, nebulous and deceitful behaviour have all the characteristics of preoccupied people up to who know's what
Re: Monday 18th March 2019
Yes. We're being gamed, people.gilsey wrote:Wren-Lewis.
Apologies if we've had it already, but it's so good it's worth linking twice anyway.
https://mainlymacro.blogspot.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;the problem is that the political right in both countries were not playing by the same rules. They had a quite different strategy, which was to shift policy on issues like taxation and the size of the state to the right, and instead try and win elections by pushing a socially conservative agenda. There is no triangulation here, but instead an attempt to hide a right wing agenda by starting a culture war.
Re: Monday 18th March 2019
Um....isn't the 20th the last date for asking for an extension?AnatolyKasparov wrote:The "idea" seems to be that if May thinks she will lose, the vote is put back until next week and then framed as "either my deal or a two year A50 extension".
Can't possibly see that going wrong, no sirree.
"Fall seven times, get up eight" - Japanese proverb
Re: Monday 18th March 2019
May's gonna change everyone's calendar
Re: Monday 18th March 2019
Thread.Willow904 wrote:Um....isn't the 20th the last date for asking for an extension?AnatolyKasparov wrote:The "idea" seems to be that if May thinks she will lose, the vote is put back until next week and then framed as "either my deal or a two year A50 extension".
Can't possibly see that going wrong, no sirree.
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Eek.
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So, 11 days out, we have no agreement on a deal, no agreement on ratifying a deal, no agreement on an extension and no sign of revocation.
Which means: we continue to head towards a no-deal that Parliament says it will not countenance
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Re: Monday 18th March 2019
Yes, she will ask for one in the next few days I expect.Willow904 wrote:Um....isn't the 20th the last date for asking for an extension?AnatolyKasparov wrote:The "idea" seems to be that if May thinks she will lose, the vote is put back until next week and then framed as "either my deal or a two year A50 extension".
Can't possibly see that going wrong, no sirree.
"IS TONTY BLAIR BEHIND THIS???!!!!111???!!!"
Re: Monday 18th March 2019
I think it's worth posting a couple timesBut the problem is that the political right in both countries were not playing by the same rules.
---
There is no triangulation here, but instead an attempt to hide a right wing agenda by starting a culture war. As the right has control over a section of the media, they can also misrepresent their own and their opponents position. That control, together with ineffective scrutiny by the non-partisan media, allows politicians to lie to an extent that would have been thought inconceivable a couple of decades earlier.I think you need to add in one additional point here, and that is a public that is looking for radical solutions, by which I means solutions that move away from the status quo. The reason for this is not hard to understand: the worst recession since WWII following the financial crisis, stagnant and declining real wages, and geographical areas (rural, towns) that seem to be falling behind more dynamic cities.
Simon Wren-Lewis
Triangulation or bipartisanship does not work when one side goes off the scale
Re: Monday 18th March 2019
I can't see that there is any realistic chance of any extension being considered unless or until she has a clear and cleared plan - if she puts off the vote again, and goes asking for a short extension so once the vote is passed there is time to put it into effect, I think there is a very very strong likelihood that the EU27 will say no.
I still believe in a town called Hope
Re: Monday 18th March 2019
Can she do that without asking the House?AnatolyKasparov wrote:Yes, she will ask for one in the next few days I expect.Willow904 wrote:Um....isn't the 20th the last date for asking for an extension?AnatolyKasparov wrote:The "idea" seems to be that if May thinks she will lose, the vote is put back until next week and then framed as "either my deal or a two year A50 extension".
Can't possibly see that going wrong, no sirree.
Re: Monday 18th March 2019
I may be making assumptions, but I'm pretty certain we will have to ask for a specific length extension for a specific reason, to have the best chance of securing one and if we are turned down there is unlikely to be time for any do overs. So if May is to ram her deal through against the "threat" of a lengthy extension (or possibly even revocation) she has to do it in the next couple of days, because if she doesn't win the vote she will need to ask for that long extension just to keep the hope of a deal alive or, if she only asks for a short one with no deal approved, the EU will probably only grant it, if at all, in order to give themselves more time to prepare for a no deal exit. We are not going to resolve in the next couple of weeks what we haven't resolved in two years (and it would be just a couple of weeks because any short extension would need to include 6-8 weeks to ratify any deal).AnatolyKasparov wrote:Yes, she will ask for one in the next few days I expect.Willow904 wrote:Um....isn't the 20th the last date for asking for an extension?AnatolyKasparov wrote:The "idea" seems to be that if May thinks she will lose, the vote is put back until next week and then framed as "either my deal or a two year A50 extension".
Can't possibly see that going wrong, no sirree.
"Fall seven times, get up eight" - Japanese proverb
Re: Monday 18th March 2019
A delay motion was passed on Thursday.citizenJA wrote:Can she do that without asking the House?AnatolyKasparov wrote:Yes, she will ask for one in the next few days I expect.Willow904 wrote: Um....isn't the 20th the last date for asking for an extension?
"Fall seven times, get up eight" - Japanese proverb
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Re: Monday 18th March 2019
That may indeed be why the 2 year figure is now being mentioned a fair bit.adam wrote:I can't see that there is any realistic chance of any extension being considered unless or until she has a clear and cleared plan - if she puts off the vote again, and goes asking for a short extension so once the vote is passed there is time to put it into effect, I think there is a very very strong likelihood that the EU27 will say no.
"IS TONTY BLAIR BEHIND THIS???!!!!111???!!!"
Re: Monday 18th March 2019
There's also a possible problem of article 50 being revoked during a short extension period resulting in us remaining eu member but then not having elected MEPs.adam wrote:I can't see that there is any realistic chance of any extension being considered unless or until she has a clear and cleared plan - if she puts off the vote again, and goes asking for a short extension so once the vote is passed there is time to put it into effect, I think there is a very very strong likelihood that the EU27 will say no.
edited: Possibly reads better with real words.
Re: Monday 18th March 2019
Yes, agreed.tinybgoat wrote:There's also a possible problem of article 50 being revoked during a short extension period resulting in us remaining eu member but then not having elected MEPs.adam wrote:I can't see that there is any realistic chance of any extension being considered unless or until she has a clear and cleared plan - if she puts off the vote again, and goes asking for a short extension so once the vote is passed there is time to put it into effect, I think there is a very very strong likelihood that the EU27 will say no.
edited: Possibly reads better with real words.
And there is also also the possibility of May squeaking her deal over the line by promising to quit before the next stage, and the EU seeing that they are about to face two more years of 'what we want or no deal and WTO terms' and declining even a technical extension. It would be fun to see parliament work through the night for a fortnight.
I still believe in a town called Hope
Re: Monday 18th March 2019
I hadn't really considered that, it's certainly a potential problem but possibly not a problem the EU would mind having too much compared to the alternativestinybgoat wrote:There's also a possible problem of article 50 being revoked during a short extension period resulting in us remaining eu member but then not having elected MEPs.adam wrote:I can't see that there is any realistic chance of any extension being considered unless or until she has a clear and cleared plan - if she puts off the vote again, and goes asking for a short extension so once the vote is passed there is time to put it into effect, I think there is a very very strong likelihood that the EU27 will say no.
edited: Possibly reads better with real words.
"Fall seven times, get up eight" - Japanese proverb
Re: Monday 18th March 2019
Would Parliament be allowed to do so?adam wrote:Yes, agreed.tinybgoat wrote:There's also a possible problem of article 50 being revoked during a short extension period resulting in us remaining eu member but then not having elected MEPs.adam wrote:I can't see that there is any realistic chance of any extension being considered unless or until she has a clear and cleared plan - if she puts off the vote again, and goes asking for a short extension so once the vote is passed there is time to put it into effect, I think there is a very very strong likelihood that the EU27 will say no.
edited: Possibly reads better with real words.
And there is also also the possibility of May squeaking her deal over the line by promising to quit before the next stage, and the EU seeing that they are about to face two more years of 'what we want or no deal and WTO terms' and declining even a technical extension. It would be fun to see parliament work through the night for a fortnight.
Five days ago an article in the Telegraph
'Mrs May's only option is to regain control of Brexit by shutting down Parliament '
Re: Monday 18th March 2019
There are still suggestions being made in BTL comments that MPs should just go home and let us leave next Friday without a deal.citizenJA wrote:Would Parliament be allowed to do so?adam wrote: Yes, agreed.
And there is also also the possibility of May squeaking her deal over the line by promising to quit before the next stage, and the EU seeing that they are about to face two more years of 'what we want or no deal and WTO terms' and declining even a technical extension. It would be fun to see parliament work through the night for a fortnight.
Five days ago an article in the Telegraph
'Mrs May's only option is to regain control of Brexit by shutting down Parliament '
I think my point is that the EU must know that the whole 'we want rights but not responsibilities' conversation is about to start all over again, and if getting this deal done involves May either agreeing to go or being outsted, she was at least eventually amenable to a deal the EU could live with. Do they want to make things easier for us if it's only to have us go back to saying 'our deal or no deal and WTO terms - you need us more than we need you'. And so on. (They probably do, they probably are a lot happier to get this stage banked and then rely on it to move forward on. I'm just moaning about two more years of bullshit).
Edited to add - just to say again - 'next Friday'. Yes, that's next Friday.
I still believe in a town called Hope
Re: Monday 18th March 2019
We shouldn't have to be guessing what our government is doing
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Re: Monday 18th March 2019
In that eventuality, we could surely hold "stand alone" elections to the parliament in fairly short order?Willow904 wrote:I hadn't really considered that, it's certainly a potential problem but possibly not a problem the EU would mind having too much compared to the alternativestinybgoat wrote:There's also a possible problem of article 50 being revoked during a short extension period resulting in us remaining eu member but then not having elected MEPs.adam wrote:I can't see that there is any realistic chance of any extension being considered unless or until she has a clear and cleared plan - if she puts off the vote again, and goes asking for a short extension so once the vote is passed there is time to put it into effect, I think there is a very very strong likelihood that the EU27 will say no.
edited: Possibly reads better with real words.
"IS TONTY BLAIR BEHIND THIS???!!!!111???!!!"
Re: Monday 18th March 2019
(cJA edit)adam wrote:---
There are still suggestions being made in BTL comments that MPs should just go home and let us leave next Friday without a deal.
I think my point is that the EU must know that the whole 'we want rights but not responsibilities' conversation is about to start all over again, and if getting this deal done involves May either agreeing to go or being outsted, she was at least eventually amenable to a deal the EU could live with. Do they want to make things easier for us if it's only to have us go back to saying 'our deal or no deal and WTO terms - you need us more than we need you'. And so on. (They probably do, they probably are a lot happier to get this stage banked and then rely on it to move forward on. I'm just moaning about two more years of bullshit).
Edited to add - just to say again - 'next Friday'. Yes, that's next Friday.
I doubt May and her government will stop more years of bullshit if her withdrawal agreement makes it through Parliament or not
I don't think they'll comply with rules they've agreed following
Re: Monday 18th March 2019
News report from politics live blogIf MPs do not agree a Brexit deal this week, Theresa May expects to be offered a nine-month article 50 extension by the EU, ITV’s Robert Peston reports."Minister tells me @theresa_may expects EU to grant nine month Brexit delay. What would that mean for when (or indeed if) we leave the EU?"
Does Barnier or anyone else representing the EU know about this nine-month article 50 extension?
Re: Monday 18th March 2019
Yeah, that 9 months seems to have come out of nowhere.
I have thought perhaps the EU might offer a lengthy extension, just so if we turn it down and crash out with no deal we can't say it was their fault. (And also to put beyond doubt the need to elect MEPs). But 9 months is an odd timeframe. Would it be contingent on an election or referendum to break the parliament deadlock?
I have thought perhaps the EU might offer a lengthy extension, just so if we turn it down and crash out with no deal we can't say it was their fault. (And also to put beyond doubt the need to elect MEPs). But 9 months is an odd timeframe. Would it be contingent on an election or referendum to break the parliament deadlock?
"Fall seven times, get up eight" - Japanese proverb
Re: Monday 18th March 2019
Nine months takes us to the end of the year but I'm not aware that the end of this year is a significant date - the end of 2020 is the end of the current budget period, that would make a certain kind of sense.Willow904 wrote:Yeah, that 9 months seems to have come out of nowhere.
I have thought perhaps the EU might offer a lengthy extension, just so if we turn it down and crash out with no deal we can't say it was their fault. (And also to put beyond doubt the need to elect MEPs). But 9 months is an odd timeframe. Would it be contingent on an election or referendum to break the parliament deadlock?
I still believe in a town called Hope
Re: Monday 18th March 2019
Do you think Bercow might rule, this week, that if the government want to bring this question back yet again after this week then it needs to be substantially changed? It might be one way of asserting his and the house's authority over the matter without causing a crisis by refusing to put the question on the meaningless vote again.
I still believe in a town called Hope
Re: Monday 18th March 2019
23 Brexiter Tories say they won't vote for May's deal just to avoid no Brexit
If they follow through, and if the DUP come on board with May, she would need about 12 switchers from the opposition benches, I think. if the DUP voted no then she'd need an extra ten from elsewhere.
If they follow through, and if the DUP come on board with May, she would need about 12 switchers from the opposition benches, I think. if the DUP voted no then she'd need an extra ten from elsewhere.
I still believe in a town called Hope
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Re: Monday 18th March 2019
https://amp.theguardian.com/society/201 ... ssion=true" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Monday 18th March 2019
https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... cle-course" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Re: Monday 18th March 2019
I'm assuming that there must be more to come (so I've just admitted to probably having jumped the gun with my post).2m ago 15:35
John Bercow's statement
John Bercow, the Common[sic] speaker, is making a surprise statement to MPs.
He says there has been much speculation about another meaningful vote.
On 13 March Angela Eagle, the Labour MP, asked if it would be proper for the government to keep putting the same motion to a vote.
He says MPs from both sides of the House, and from both sides of the argument, have expressed their concerns to him their concerns about MPs voting on the same thing over and over again.
Erskine May, the parliamentary rulebook, says an issue that has been decided in substance cannot be brought back to the Commons. (Politics Live, Guardian)
Edited to add -
The first edit was to add a "[sic]"
The second edit was to explain the first edit.
Last edited by PorFavor on Mon 18 Mar, 2019 7:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Monday 18th March 2019
I'm assuming that there must be more to come (so I've just admitted to probably having jumped the gun with my post).2m ago 15:35
John Bercow's statement
John Bercow, the Common speaker, is making a surprise statement to MPs.
He says there has been much speculation about another meaningful vote.
On 13 March Angela Eagle, the Labour MP, asked if it would be proper for the government to keep putting the same motion to a vote.
He says MPs from both sides of the House, and from both sides of the argument, have expressed their concerns to him their concerns about MPs voting on the same thing over and over again.
Erskine May, the parliamentary rulebook, says an issue that has been decided in substance cannot be brought back to the Commons. (Politics Live, Guardian)
Re: Monday 18th March 2019
Squirrels.
Re: Monday 18th March 2019
I'll stay tuned for thatBercow wants to summarise the chronology of events.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/bl ... eadf77fc30" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Re: Monday 18th March 2019
Oops.
Sorry for the echo, PorFavor
Sorry for the echo, PorFavor
Re: Monday 18th March 2019
Is Bercow okay? Anyone have contact? His account has been interrupted
Re: Monday 18th March 2019
Can't say that I'm entirely clear what's going\gone on (the "not my final ruling" bit).Bercow rules out another vote on May's Brexit deal unless details change
He says this is not his final ruling on the matter.
Mark Francois, the Tory Brexiter, asks if Bercow’s ruling applies to amendments like the Cooper/Boles one, allowing MPs to take charge of the Commons timetable.
Responding to Mark Francois, Bercow says everything depends upon the circumstances. He says he would have to consider very carefully whether a proposition was the same.
Bercow suggests the “no repeat votes” rule could rule out further votes on some of the amendments championed by MPs who want parliament to take control of the Brexit process.(Politics Live, Guardian)
Re: Monday 18th March 2019
Bercow implies he will not allow a new vote on the Brexit deal unless the EU agrees to further changes to it.
This takes Bercow’s ruling much further than his original words implied. (Politics Live, Guardian)
Re: Monday 18th March 2019
Jeremy Corbyn being vague may yet pay dividends.
Re: Monday 18th March 2019
What a pillock.James Cleverly, a Conservative, says if Bercow had made this ruling earlier, MPs might have realised that last week was their last chance to vote for the Brexit deal. They might have voted differently, he says. (Politics Live, Guardian)
Re: Monday 18th March 2019
Earlier, I did have a smirk at this, from John Bercow, "Fundamentally, for something to be different, it has to be fundamentally different." A variation on "'Brexit' means "'Brexit'"?
Edited - typo
Edited - typo
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Re: Monday 18th March 2019
Pretty outrageous from No 10 if these reports are true.Hugh Bennett
@HughRBennett
5h5 hours ago
More Hugh Bennett Retweeted George Osborne
May now offering Olly Robbins up as a sacrificial lamb to try to save her own skin
But it wasn't Olly Robbins who gave himself the authority to run Brexit as his own private fiefdom behind the backs of the Cabinet and even the Brexit Department itself
It was May
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Re: Monday 18th March 2019
(((Dan Hodges)))
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Said last week he’d do this. When it was the Grieve amendment precedent wasn’t important. Suddenly it’s all important. Simply interpreting the rules upon the basis of what creates the most problems for the government. Not even pretending any more.
I'd say that someone isn't pretending any more that he is just a government shill...
If I'm not here, then I'll be in the library. Or the other library.
Re: Monday 18th March 2019
darth™
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imagine having a 415 year old precedent in your pocket and actually finding a use for it
i mean seriously brexit is insane
@darth
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imagine having a 415 year old precedent in your pocket and actually finding a use for it
i mean seriously brexit is insane
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Re: Monday 18th March 2019
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So the Solicitor General is now suggesting that Parliament be switched off and then back on again so May can have her third ‘meaningful’ vote. I wish Spike Milligan was still alive for his view on this.
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So the Solicitor General is now suggesting that Parliament be switched off and then back on again so May can have her third ‘meaningful’ vote. I wish Spike Milligan was still alive for his view on this.
One world, like it or not - John Martyn