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PostPosted: Thu 16 Jan, 2020 7:03 am 
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Morning all.


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PostPosted: Thu 16 Jan, 2020 11:32 am 
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Hope that AH is getting some well earned rest now ;)


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PostPosted: Thu 16 Jan, 2020 11:48 am 
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This is a few months old, but Robert Saunders has rightly re-promoted it in response to Johnson's recent rhetoric. It's a good read IMHO.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/u ... sh-history

myths-small-island-dangers-buccaneering-view-british-history


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PostPosted: Thu 16 Jan, 2020 11:50 am 
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Big Ben bong binned.


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PostPosted: Thu 16 Jan, 2020 11:56 am 
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Another piece about the GE and the left by Jeremy Gilbert up on the OpenDemocracy site, all three are well worth reading.


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PostPosted: Thu 16 Jan, 2020 12:14 pm 
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https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opende ... -last-ten/


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PostPosted: Thu 16 Jan, 2020 1:46 pm 
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To what extent will Labour members remain loyal to facillitating eternal opposition on their proclaimed "principles",time will tell.In the real World as it is,I humbly submit,it is an act of gross negligence,self-indulgence,and utter selfishness to pursue such a course,knowingly.Far too many are happier to be in their cleansed bubble of self-righteous ineffectuality,instead of getting dirty.In the sewer you have to deal with shit.


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PostPosted: Thu 16 Jan, 2020 1:52 pm 
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So apart from controlling the weather and banning all deemed not sufficiently Labour supporting media,what else can be done?


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PostPosted: Thu 16 Jan, 2020 1:54 pm 
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PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
This is a few months old, but Robert Saunders has rightly re-promoted it in response to Johnson's recent rhetoric. It's a good read IMHO.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/u ... sh-history

myths-small-island-dangers-buccaneering-view-british-history


Quote:
"" In the aftermath of the 2016 referendum, a series of commentators held up Britain’s global past as an inspiration for the present. Yet they did so in a curious manner. Empire barely featured in these remarks, pushed aside by a history centring on trade and innovation. The result was a heroic vision of British history that was global, but not imperial. It recast a coercive military empire as a champion of “free trade”; and, in so doing, established entrepreneurialism, rather than empire, as the golden thread connecting past and present. That made it possible at once to disclaim empire and to invoke the lessons of the imperial past. In Boris Johnson’s words, the challenge was “to rediscover some of the dynamism of these bearded Victorians: not to build a new empire, heaven forfend”, but “to go back out into the world in a way that we had perhaps forgotten”.""

A VERY good read ! I've saved it for future use along with AK's Graeber etc , and CitizenJA's voting figures2017 versus 2019 .
Thanks.


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PostPosted: Thu 16 Jan, 2020 2:02 pm 
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Not sell-out,it is doing what is necessary.

What is the purpose/justification in glorifying in your own opposition beyond self satisfaction /aggrandisement?


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PostPosted: Thu 16 Jan, 2020 2:05 pm 
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I have no need to convince myself I am right.I do not find succour in agreement with people I agree with,it's not us that have to be convinced.


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PostPosted: Thu 16 Jan, 2020 2:09 pm 
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Not seen mentioned,is the cumulative effect of relentless same as the Tories stuff from part of the left.They simply cannot escape condemnation for that in contributing to such a general,and evidently disprovable,view.All other things being equal,people,if voting,will vote Tory on that basis.


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PostPosted: Thu 16 Jan, 2020 2:10 pm 
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The entrepreneurial spirit is certainly strong in our village. Since the Halifax closed, the shop which it occupied has hosted a series of niche, amateur enterprises. A prepared meals outlet (never quite understood what it was), a nail and beauty bar and now (despite all the evidence of links with skin cancer) a tanning salon. In a village of 7,000. Each time a large sum of money is spent kitting the new enterprise out. Each time interest in said enterprise is woeful to non-existent. I'm left scratching my head and wondering where the money for these white elephants comes from. How are they funded when the business model can't possibly work? Compared to, say, the pizza & kebab takeaway which has at least a passing chance of turning a profit and I can see a bank lending on it.

Anyway, if Johnson's shtick is to appeal to chancers and spivs, I can see the sense in that. There seems to be an inordinate amount of them about. How they fund their lifestyles off such small amounts of work and customers, though, is beyond me.

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PostPosted: Thu 16 Jan, 2020 2:12 pm 
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Nandy's comments on Scotland/Catalonia - what on earth was she thinking? If indeed she was thinking at all.

(and it was generally quite a good interview, as well)


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PostPosted: Thu 16 Jan, 2020 2:22 pm 
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I agree with RLB re equal abortion.I will not vote for her as leader.I suppose that makes me somewhat horrifically impure/compromised(not really)


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... disability


Last edited by HindleA on Thu 16 Jan, 2020 2:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu 16 Jan, 2020 2:25 pm 
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I recognise the habit of non-thinking,only too well..Some would say I am somewhat of an expert in that field.I can't possibly not comment.


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PostPosted: Thu 16 Jan, 2020 4:07 pm 
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HindleA wrote:
I agree with RLB re equal abortion.I will not vote for her as leader.I suppose that makes me somewhat horrifically impure/compromised(not really)


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... disability

Interesting one !

So disabled people shouldn't have more rights than non-disabled where abortion is concerned ? There's probably an argument for 'equality' that they could well be pushed unwillingly into termination, but that's my surmise only .

Secondly and rough figures only , 70% of the votes cast by 17.5% of Momentum members comes to 12.25% which doesn't look like "overwhelming backing" to me.


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PostPosted: Thu 16 Jan, 2020 4:15 pm 
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What post?


Last edited by HindleA on Thu 16 Jan, 2020 6:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu 16 Jan, 2020 5:23 pm 
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Momentum members have endorsed their official recommendation of RLB and Rayner, though only narrowly in the latter case.

(that can still be seen as a blow to Burgon, though)


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PostPosted: Thu 16 Jan, 2020 6:14 pm 
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Good morfternoon.

Quote:
Boris Johnson appointed a key figure to the Grenfell Tower inquiry who has links to the company which made the cladding blamed for accelerating the fatal fire, the Guardian can reveal.
(Politics Live, Guardian)


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PostPosted: Thu 16 Jan, 2020 6:17 pm 
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Further to my post, above -

Quote:
Boris Johnson's pick to help lead Grenfell inquiry linked to cladding firm

Exclusive: Survivors and bereaved call Benita Mehra appointment ‘a slap in the face’
(Guardian)


https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jan/16/benita-mehra-grenfell-inquiry-boris-johnson-appoints-engineer-with-links-to-cladding-firm


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PostPosted: Thu 16 Jan, 2020 6:20 pm 
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Sorry, HindleA. I hadn't read your post. That'll learn me.


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PostPosted: Thu 16 Jan, 2020 6:27 pm 
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Quote:
Betfred owners make millions from company treating gambling addicts (Guardian)


https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/jan/16/betfred-owners-make-millions-from-company-treating-gambling-addicts


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PostPosted: Thu 16 Jan, 2020 6:39 pm 
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Quote:
5,000 people died before being repaid over benefits error

UK campaigners condemn ‘national scandal’ affecting ill and disabled claimants
(Guardian)


https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/jan/16/people-died-benefits-error


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PostPosted: Thu 16 Jan, 2020 6:47 pm 
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PF-what post?


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PostPosted: Thu 16 Jan, 2020 6:47 pm 
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Pfft not dead ,no longer vulnerable,Tsk.


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PostPosted: Thu 16 Jan, 2020 6:50 pm 
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HindleA wrote:
PF-what post?


This isn't a rerun of "Gaslight", you know.


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PostPosted: Thu 16 Jan, 2020 6:53 pm 
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Sorry,Ingrid.


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PostPosted: Thu 16 Jan, 2020 6:55 pm 
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HindleA wrote:
Sorry,Ingrid.


Ok, Charles.


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PostPosted: Thu 16 Jan, 2020 7:02 pm 
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We should be on the stage...sweeping it.


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PostPosted: Thu 16 Jan, 2020 7:37 pm 
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HindleA wrote:
To what extent will Labour members remain loyal to facillitating eternal opposition on their proclaimed "principles",time will tell.In the real World as it is,I humbly submit,it is an act of gross negligence,self-indulgence,and utter selfishness to pursue such a course,knowingly.Far too many are happier to be in their cleansed bubble of self-righteous ineffectuality,instead of getting dirty.In the sewer you have to deal with shit.
I'm voting Labour. Every time. Labour. It's very simple.


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PostPosted: Thu 16 Jan, 2020 7:43 pm 
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Willow904 wrote:
The entrepreneurial spirit is certainly strong in our village. Since the Halifax closed, the shop which it occupied has hosted a series of niche, amateur enterprises. A prepared meals outlet (never quite understood what it was), a nail and beauty bar and now (despite all the evidence of links with skin cancer) a tanning salon. In a village of 7,000. Each time a large sum of money is spent kitting the new enterprise out. Each time interest in said enterprise is woeful to non-existent. I'm left scratching my head and wondering where the money for these white elephants comes from. How are they funded when the business model can't possibly work? Compared to, say, the pizza & kebab takeaway which has at least a passing chance of turning a profit and I can see a bank lending on it.

Anyway, if Johnson's shtick is to appeal to chancers and spivs, I can see the sense in that. There seems to be an inordinate amount of them about. How they fund their lifestyles off such small amounts of work and customers, though, is beyond me.
Narcotic & hallucinogen drug sales


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PostPosted: Thu 16 Jan, 2020 7:51 pm 
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Good evening, everyone.


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PostPosted: Thu 16 Jan, 2020 8:30 pm 
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citizenJA wrote:
HindleA wrote:
To what extent will Labour members remain loyal to facillitating eternal opposition on their proclaimed "principles",time will tell.In the real World as it is,I humbly submit,it is an act of gross negligence,self-indulgence,and utter selfishness to pursue such a course,knowingly.Far too many are happier to be in their cleansed bubble of self-righteous ineffectuality,instead of getting dirty.In the sewer you have to deal with shit.
I'm voting Labour. Every time. Labour. It's very simple.

It appears that the 2019 Manifesto is held by some to be the equivalent of Holy Writ, and you're a witch (covert CENTRIST!') unless you subscribe to all of it?
It looked like a magnificent wish - list to me, and was one of the reasons for the abject failure.


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PostPosted: Thu 16 Jan, 2020 8:41 pm 
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@Cja,to be clear my post was a reference to the leadership election ie.what is the priority/basis on which that decision is made and for what purpose?


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PostPosted: Thu 16 Jan, 2020 8:48 pm 
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Being totally unprincipled ,unscrupulous ,and refusing to tag along a particular faction/line and non expection of always getting what I want (ever aware I provide as much tut-tutting as anybody else) in a World that evidences the same characteristics,perhaps provides a different perspective.


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PostPosted: Thu 16 Jan, 2020 8:50 pm 
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If you think RLB is the answer you are asking the wrong question.And this is not based on any personality,gender or attribute basis.


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PostPosted: Thu 16 Jan, 2020 9:35 pm 
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Norris the Belisha Beacon for leader.


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PostPosted: Thu 16 Jan, 2020 9:38 pm 
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HindleA wrote:
@Cja,to be clear my post was a reference to the leadership election ie.what is the priority/basis on which that decision is made and for what purpose?
Thank you for more information; sometimes it's difficult understanding when we're not conversing together in person.


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PostPosted: Thu 16 Jan, 2020 9:49 pm 
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You are extremely polite.One of my many flaws is that I (mis)assume prior understanding of others of what the hell I am waffling about,possibly some kind of failure not to consider they don't have access to my mind,a life-long habit


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PostPosted: Thu 16 Jan, 2020 9:50 pm 
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The "Is it me?"syndrome (most likely,yes)


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PostPosted: Thu 16 Jan, 2020 10:19 pm 
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frog222 wrote:
citizenJA wrote:
HindleA wrote:
To what extent will Labour members remain loyal to facillitating eternal opposition on their proclaimed "principles",time will tell.In the real World as it is,I humbly submit,it is an act of gross negligence,self-indulgence,and utter selfishness to pursue such a course,knowingly.Far too many are happier to be in their cleansed bubble of self-righteous ineffectuality,instead of getting dirty.In the sewer you have to deal with shit.
I'm voting Labour. Every time. Labour. It's very simple.
It appears that the 2019 Manifesto is held by some to be the equivalent of Holy Writ, and you're a witch (covert CENTRIST!') unless you subscribe to all of it?
It looked like a magnificent wish - list to me, and was one of the reasons for the abject failure.
I dislike using a team sport metaphor because politics isn't a game but I think I can manage my point and be understood. Members of the same team don't compete with each other during the game. They work together. Their purpose is to defeat an opposing team. Labour is one team and Tories are an opposing team.

I've made the observation before Tories do one thing I admire. They unite as one achieving and maintaining leadership. I admire their single-minded purpose. Tory party members, Tory leadership might all hate each other but they'll not break their line because doing so loses their hold on power. Theresa May, for example, doesn't like Boris Johnson at all, I think. However, she'll vote for him and with him to keep Tories in leadership. She'll never let her personal loathings injury the Tory party.

That is what Labour party members and leadership must do too. There is nothing inherently unethical or 'impure' uniting with all in Labour, fending off all distractions, in order to win leadership. Getting returned to government is the first goal and duty of a political party. Labour can then do what it says on the back of my Labour party membership card.


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PostPosted: Thu 16 Jan, 2020 10:29 pm 
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HindleA wrote:
You are extremely polite.One of my many flaws is that I (mis)assume prior understanding of others of what the hell I am waffling about,possibly some kind of failure not to consider they don't have access to my mind,a life-long habit
You're one of my best friends.
:rock:


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PostPosted: Thu 16 Jan, 2020 10:37 pm 
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So you are willing to compromise dirty yourself in personal terms in order to achieve that aim and not judge your decision on what you want/believe but rather who may stand a chance?I beg to differ though it is a game ,a rather dirty one.They don't stick to the rules,neither should we.


Last edited by HindleA on Thu 16 Jan, 2020 10:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu 16 Jan, 2020 10:42 pm 
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And somewhat off at a tangent,the differential treatment of exactly the same act as to "careerist" or mysteriously not,is so much bullshit IMHO.


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PostPosted: Thu 16 Jan, 2020 10:46 pm 
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And extent of "leftism" hasn't a direct relationship with wanting the Tories out,but rather a view as to how.I haven't much time for the self-proclaimed "truists or real Socialists.


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PostPosted: Thu 16 Jan, 2020 10:51 pm 
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"We'll have years of internal squabbling and relentless diversionary own belly-button gazing but still have time for daily e-mails asking for more of your cash"

Back of my card.


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PostPosted: Thu 16 Jan, 2020 10:57 pm 
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HindleA wrote:
So you are willing to compromise in personal terms in order to achieve that aim and not judge your decision on what you want/believe but rather who may stand a chance?I beg to differ though it is a game ,a rather dirty one.They don't stick to the rules,neither should we.
I may compromise but that doesn't necessarily make me compromised. Don't put words in my mouth. Cooperating, negotiating and clearly explaining our wants and needs with others is civilisation. We always have to compromise in personal terms; being a member of society makes it inevitable.

I don't understand what you mean exactly when you write, 'they don't stick to rules neither should we'.


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PostPosted: Thu 16 Jan, 2020 11:06 pm 
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Misunderstanding has happened again...I advocate compromise,I am arguing stoically against choosing the next leader,priority wise on closeness to own view -a committed Labour member rather than the best person in terms of getting the necessary votes that matter,if you want Labour to be in Government ie.keeping it "left"/pure or whatever ,I have no desire to sit in a self satisfied exclusion zone praising each other how good we are .Tories don't stick to the rules,neither should we.


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PostPosted: Thu 16 Jan, 2020 11:09 pm 
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HindleA wrote:
And somewhat off at a tangent,the differential treatment of exactly the same act as to "careerist" or mysteriously not,is so much bullshit IMHO.
I'll go off on a tangent. Western societies surrendering with sincere humility to the Chinese as soon as possible might be best for 98% of human life now and in the future.

Just a suggestion, mind.


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