Thursday 16th January 2020

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refitman
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Thursday 16th January 2020

Post by refitman »

Morning all.
AnatolyKasparov
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Re: Thursday 16th January 2020

Post by AnatolyKasparov »

Hope that AH is getting some well earned rest now ;)
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PaulfromYorkshire
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Re: Thursday 16th January 2020

Post by PaulfromYorkshire »

This is a few months old, but Robert Saunders has rightly re-promoted it in response to Johnson's recent rhetoric. It's a good read IMHO.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/u ... sh-history" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

myths-small-island-dangers-buccaneering-view-british-history
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Re: Thursday 16th January 2020

Post by PaulfromYorkshire »

Big Ben bong binned.
AnatolyKasparov
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Re: Thursday 16th January 2020

Post by AnatolyKasparov »

Another piece about the GE and the left by Jeremy Gilbert up on the OpenDemocracy site, all three are well worth reading.
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Re: Thursday 16th January 2020

Post by HindleA »

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opende ... -last-ten/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Thursday 16th January 2020

Post by HindleA »

To what extent will Labour members remain loyal to facillitating eternal opposition on their proclaimed "principles",time will tell.In the real World as it is,I humbly submit,it is an act of gross negligence,self-indulgence,and utter selfishness to pursue such a course,knowingly.Far too many are happier to be in their cleansed bubble of self-righteous ineffectuality,instead of getting dirty.In the sewer you have to deal with shit.
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Re: Thursday 16th January 2020

Post by HindleA »

So apart from controlling the weather and banning all deemed not sufficiently Labour supporting media,what else can be done?
frog222
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Re: Thursday 16th January 2020

Post by frog222 »

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:This is a few months old, but Robert Saunders has rightly re-promoted it in response to Johnson's recent rhetoric. It's a good read IMHO.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/u ... sh-history" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

myths-small-island-dangers-buccaneering-view-british-history
"" In the aftermath of the 2016 referendum, a series of commentators held up Britain’s global past as an inspiration for the present. Yet they did so in a curious manner. Empire barely featured in these remarks, pushed aside by a history centring on trade and innovation. The result was a heroic vision of British history that was global, but not imperial. It recast a coercive military empire as a champion of “free trade”; and, in so doing, established entrepreneurialism, rather than empire, as the golden thread connecting past and present. That made it possible at once to disclaim empire and to invoke the lessons of the imperial past. In Boris Johnson’s words, the challenge was “to rediscover some of the dynamism of these bearded Victorians: not to build a new empire, heaven forfend”, but “to go back out into the world in a way that we had perhaps forgotten”.""
A VERY good read ! I've saved it for future use along with AK's Graeber etc , and CitizenJA's voting figures2017 versus 2019 .
Thanks.
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Re: Thursday 16th January 2020

Post by HindleA »

Not sell-out,it is doing what is necessary.

What is the purpose/justification in glorifying in your own opposition beyond self satisfaction /aggrandisement?
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Re: Thursday 16th January 2020

Post by HindleA »

I have no need to convince myself I am right.I do not find succour in agreement with people I agree with,it's not us that have to be convinced.
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Re: Thursday 16th January 2020

Post by HindleA »

Not seen mentioned,is the cumulative effect of relentless same as the Tories stuff from part of the left.They simply cannot escape condemnation for that in contributing to such a general,and evidently disprovable,view.All other things being equal,people,if voting,will vote Tory on that basis.
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Re: Thursday 16th January 2020

Post by Willow904 »

The entrepreneurial spirit is certainly strong in our village. Since the Halifax closed, the shop which it occupied has hosted a series of niche, amateur enterprises. A prepared meals outlet (never quite understood what it was), a nail and beauty bar and now (despite all the evidence of links with skin cancer) a tanning salon. In a village of 7,000. Each time a large sum of money is spent kitting the new enterprise out. Each time interest in said enterprise is woeful to non-existent. I'm left scratching my head and wondering where the money for these white elephants comes from. How are they funded when the business model can't possibly work? Compared to, say, the pizza & kebab takeaway which has at least a passing chance of turning a profit and I can see a bank lending on it.

Anyway, if Johnson's shtick is to appeal to chancers and spivs, I can see the sense in that. There seems to be an inordinate amount of them about. How they fund their lifestyles off such small amounts of work and customers, though, is beyond me.
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AnatolyKasparov
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Re: Thursday 16th January 2020

Post by AnatolyKasparov »

Nandy's comments on Scotland/Catalonia - what on earth was she thinking? If indeed she was thinking at all.

(and it was generally quite a good interview, as well)
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Re: Thursday 16th January 2020

Post by HindleA »

I agree with RLB re equal abortion.I will not vote for her as leader.I suppose that makes me somewhat horrifically impure/compromised(not really)


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... disability" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Last edited by HindleA on Thu 16 Jan, 2020 2:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Thursday 16th January 2020

Post by HindleA »

I recognise the habit of non-thinking,only too well..Some would say I am somewhat of an expert in that field.I can't possibly not comment.
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Re: Thursday 16th January 2020

Post by frog222 »

HindleA wrote:I agree with RLB re equal abortion.I will not vote for her as leader.I suppose that makes me somewhat horrifically impure/compromised(not really)


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... disability" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Interesting one !

So disabled people shouldn't have more rights than non-disabled where abortion is concerned ? There's probably an argument for 'equality' that they could well be pushed unwillingly into termination, but that's my surmise only .

Secondly and rough figures only , 70% of the votes cast by 17.5% of Momentum members comes to 12.25% which doesn't look like "overwhelming backing" to me.
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Re: Thursday 16th January 2020

Post by HindleA »

What post?
Last edited by HindleA on Thu 16 Jan, 2020 6:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
AnatolyKasparov
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Re: Thursday 16th January 2020

Post by AnatolyKasparov »

Momentum members have endorsed their official recommendation of RLB and Rayner, though only narrowly in the latter case.

(that can still be seen as a blow to Burgon, though)
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PorFavor
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Re: Thursday 16th January 2020

Post by PorFavor »

Good morfternoon.
Boris Johnson appointed a key figure to the Grenfell Tower inquiry who has links to the company which made the cladding blamed for accelerating the fatal fire, the Guardian can reveal.
(Politics Live, Guardian)
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Re: Thursday 16th January 2020

Post by PorFavor »

Further to my post, above -
Boris Johnson's pick to help lead Grenfell inquiry linked to cladding firm

Exclusive: Survivors and bereaved call Benita Mehra appointment ‘a slap in the face’
(Guardian)
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... dding-firm
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Re: Thursday 16th January 2020

Post by PorFavor »

Sorry, HindleA. I hadn't read your post. That'll learn me.
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Re: Thursday 16th January 2020

Post by PorFavor »

Betfred owners make millions from company treating gambling addicts (Guardian)
https://www.theguardian.com/society/202 ... ng-addicts
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Re: Thursday 16th January 2020

Post by PorFavor »

5,000 people died before being repaid over benefits error

UK campaigners condemn ‘national scandal’ affecting ill and disabled claimants
(Guardian)
https://www.theguardian.com/society/202 ... fits-error
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Re: Thursday 16th January 2020

Post by HindleA »

PF-what post?
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Re: Thursday 16th January 2020

Post by HindleA »

Pfft not dead ,no longer vulnerable,Tsk.
PorFavor
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Re: Thursday 16th January 2020

Post by PorFavor »

HindleA wrote:PF-what post?
This isn't a rerun of "Gaslight", you know.
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Re: Thursday 16th January 2020

Post by HindleA »

Sorry,Ingrid.
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Re: Thursday 16th January 2020

Post by PorFavor »

HindleA wrote:Sorry,Ingrid.
Ok, Charles.
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Re: Thursday 16th January 2020

Post by HindleA »

We should be on the stage...sweeping it.
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Re: Thursday 16th January 2020

Post by citizenJA »

HindleA wrote:To what extent will Labour members remain loyal to facillitating eternal opposition on their proclaimed "principles",time will tell.In the real World as it is,I humbly submit,it is an act of gross negligence,self-indulgence,and utter selfishness to pursue such a course,knowingly.Far too many are happier to be in their cleansed bubble of self-righteous ineffectuality,instead of getting dirty.In the sewer you have to deal with shit.
I'm voting Labour. Every time. Labour. It's very simple.
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citizenJA
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Re: Thursday 16th January 2020

Post by citizenJA »

Willow904 wrote:The entrepreneurial spirit is certainly strong in our village. Since the Halifax closed, the shop which it occupied has hosted a series of niche, amateur enterprises. A prepared meals outlet (never quite understood what it was), a nail and beauty bar and now (despite all the evidence of links with skin cancer) a tanning salon. In a village of 7,000. Each time a large sum of money is spent kitting the new enterprise out. Each time interest in said enterprise is woeful to non-existent. I'm left scratching my head and wondering where the money for these white elephants comes from. How are they funded when the business model can't possibly work? Compared to, say, the pizza & kebab takeaway which has at least a passing chance of turning a profit and I can see a bank lending on it.

Anyway, if Johnson's shtick is to appeal to chancers and spivs, I can see the sense in that. There seems to be an inordinate amount of them about. How they fund their lifestyles off such small amounts of work and customers, though, is beyond me.
Narcotic & hallucinogen drug sales
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citizenJA
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Re: Thursday 16th January 2020

Post by citizenJA »

Good evening, everyone.
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Re: Thursday 16th January 2020

Post by frog222 »

citizenJA wrote:
HindleA wrote:To what extent will Labour members remain loyal to facillitating eternal opposition on their proclaimed "principles",time will tell.In the real World as it is,I humbly submit,it is an act of gross negligence,self-indulgence,and utter selfishness to pursue such a course,knowingly.Far too many are happier to be in their cleansed bubble of self-righteous ineffectuality,instead of getting dirty.In the sewer you have to deal with shit.
I'm voting Labour. Every time. Labour. It's very simple.
It appears that the 2019 Manifesto is held by some to be the equivalent of Holy Writ, and you're a witch (covert CENTRIST!') unless you subscribe to all of it?
It looked like a magnificent wish - list to me, and was one of the reasons for the abject failure.
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Re: Thursday 16th January 2020

Post by HindleA »

@Cja,to be clear my post was a reference to the leadership election ie.what is the priority/basis on which that decision is made and for what purpose?
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Re: Thursday 16th January 2020

Post by HindleA »

Being totally unprincipled ,unscrupulous ,and refusing to tag along a particular faction/line and non expection of always getting what I want (ever aware I provide as much tut-tutting as anybody else) in a World that evidences the same characteristics,perhaps provides a different perspective.
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Re: Thursday 16th January 2020

Post by HindleA »

If you think RLB is the answer you are asking the wrong question.And this is not based on any personality,gender or attribute basis.
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Re: Thursday 16th January 2020

Post by HindleA »

Norris the Belisha Beacon for leader.
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citizenJA
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Re: Thursday 16th January 2020

Post by citizenJA »

HindleA wrote:@Cja,to be clear my post was a reference to the leadership election ie.what is the priority/basis on which that decision is made and for what purpose?
Thank you for more information; sometimes it's difficult understanding when we're not conversing together in person.
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Re: Thursday 16th January 2020

Post by HindleA »

You are extremely polite.One of my many flaws is that I (mis)assume prior understanding of others of what the hell I am waffling about,possibly some kind of failure not to consider they don't have access to my mind,a life-long habit
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Re: Thursday 16th January 2020

Post by HindleA »

The "Is it me?"syndrome (most likely,yes)
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Re: Thursday 16th January 2020

Post by citizenJA »

frog222 wrote:
citizenJA wrote:
HindleA wrote:To what extent will Labour members remain loyal to facillitating eternal opposition on their proclaimed "principles",time will tell.In the real World as it is,I humbly submit,it is an act of gross negligence,self-indulgence,and utter selfishness to pursue such a course,knowingly.Far too many are happier to be in their cleansed bubble of self-righteous ineffectuality,instead of getting dirty.In the sewer you have to deal with shit.
I'm voting Labour. Every time. Labour. It's very simple.
It appears that the 2019 Manifesto is held by some to be the equivalent of Holy Writ, and you're a witch (covert CENTRIST!') unless you subscribe to all of it?
It looked like a magnificent wish - list to me, and was one of the reasons for the abject failure.
I dislike using a team sport metaphor because politics isn't a game but I think I can manage my point and be understood. Members of the same team don't compete with each other during the game. They work together. Their purpose is to defeat an opposing team. Labour is one team and Tories are an opposing team.

I've made the observation before Tories do one thing I admire. They unite as one achieving and maintaining leadership. I admire their single-minded purpose. Tory party members, Tory leadership might all hate each other but they'll not break their line because doing so loses their hold on power. Theresa May, for example, doesn't like Boris Johnson at all, I think. However, she'll vote for him and with him to keep Tories in leadership. She'll never let her personal loathings injury the Tory party.

That is what Labour party members and leadership must do too. There is nothing inherently unethical or 'impure' uniting with all in Labour, fending off all distractions, in order to win leadership. Getting returned to government is the first goal and duty of a political party. Labour can then do what it says on the back of my Labour party membership card.
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Re: Thursday 16th January 2020

Post by citizenJA »

HindleA wrote:You are extremely polite.One of my many flaws is that I (mis)assume prior understanding of others of what the hell I am waffling about,possibly some kind of failure not to consider they don't have access to my mind,a life-long habit
You're one of my best friends.
:rock:
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Re: Thursday 16th January 2020

Post by HindleA »

So you are willing to compromise dirty yourself in personal terms in order to achieve that aim and not judge your decision on what you want/believe but rather who may stand a chance?I beg to differ though it is a game ,a rather dirty one.They don't stick to the rules,neither should we.
Last edited by HindleA on Thu 16 Jan, 2020 10:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Thursday 16th January 2020

Post by HindleA »

And somewhat off at a tangent,the differential treatment of exactly the same act as to "careerist" or mysteriously not,is so much bullshit IMHO.
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Re: Thursday 16th January 2020

Post by HindleA »

And extent of "leftism" hasn't a direct relationship with wanting the Tories out,but rather a view as to how.I haven't much time for the self-proclaimed "truists or real Socialists.
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Re: Thursday 16th January 2020

Post by HindleA »

"We'll have years of internal squabbling and relentless diversionary own belly-button gazing but still have time for daily e-mails asking for more of your cash"

Back of my card.
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Re: Thursday 16th January 2020

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HindleA wrote:So you are willing to compromise in personal terms in order to achieve that aim and not judge your decision on what you want/believe but rather who may stand a chance?I beg to differ though it is a game ,a rather dirty one.They don't stick to the rules,neither should we.
I may compromise but that doesn't necessarily make me compromised. Don't put words in my mouth. Cooperating, negotiating and clearly explaining our wants and needs with others is civilisation. We always have to compromise in personal terms; being a member of society makes it inevitable.

I don't understand what you mean exactly when you write, 'they don't stick to rules neither should we'.
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Re: Thursday 16th January 2020

Post by HindleA »

Misunderstanding has happened again...I advocate compromise,I am arguing stoically against choosing the next leader,priority wise on closeness to own view -a committed Labour member rather than the best person in terms of getting the necessary votes that matter,if you want Labour to be in Government ie.keeping it "left"/pure or whatever ,I have no desire to sit in a self satisfied exclusion zone praising each other how good we are .Tories don't stick to the rules,neither should we.
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Re: Thursday 16th January 2020

Post by citizenJA »

HindleA wrote:And somewhat off at a tangent,the differential treatment of exactly the same act as to "careerist" or mysteriously not,is so much bullshit IMHO.
I'll go off on a tangent. Western societies surrendering with sincere humility to the Chinese as soon as possible might be best for 98% of human life now and in the future.

Just a suggestion, mind.
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