Saturday 11th and Sunday 12th February 2017

[StephenDolan]

Morning all.

Thanks to AK for clearing up the Allen and Allen mystery that I was also puzzled by.

[StephenDolan]

The Tories and Hunt. They're misunderstood over the NHS.

There's tools, then there's Rentoul.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/jer ... 02846.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[SpinningHugo]

The Tories and Hunt. They're misunderstood over the NHS.

There's tools, then there's Rentoul.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/jer ... 02846.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You think the Tories are seeking to replace the NHS with a private insurance based system?

[refitman]

The Tories and Hunt. They're misunderstood over the NHS.

There's tools, then there's Rentoul.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/jer ... 02846.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You think the Tories are seeking to replace the NHS with a private insurance based system?

Are you really going to play Tory apologist?

[SpinningHugo]

The Tories and Hunt. They're misunderstood over the NHS.

There's tools, then there's Rentoul.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/jer ... 02846.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You think the Tories are seeking to replace the NHS with a private insurance based system?

Are you really going to play Tory apologist?

You think the Tories are trying to replace the NHS with a private insurance based system?

[StephenDolan]

The Tories and Hunt. They're misunderstood over the NHS.

There's tools, then there's Rentoul.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/jer ... 02846.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You think the Tories are seeking to replace the NHS with a private insurance based system?

Are you really going to play Tory apologist?

SH has a crush on Rentoul, you should know that by now.

That piece though, deary me. The strawman of the evil Cameron and Osborne.

There's a lot of ducklike walking and talking by the Tories with regards to their actions on the NHS whenever they're in power. Giving them the benefit of the doubt is at best, naive.

[Willow904]

The Tories introduced a two tier system in dentistry without moving to a compulsory insurance based system. The spectre of private GP services for the wealthy and an underfunded NHS for everyone else seems much more likely than a wholesale overhaul with insurance for everyone. A completely insurance based system would involve employers having to stump up more than they do in NI at the moment I would have thought. Indeed, insurance based systems, like the one they have in Germany, can provide excellent universal healthcare so there is no chance the Tories would be interested in that. The pretence of the NHS will be maintained while in reality more and more services for those without the money to jump the queue slip out of existence until one day we wake up and realise our health service is no longer universal anymore, in the American style. That's my prediction. The cancelling of non urgent out-patient procedures this winter, supposedly to reduce pressure on struggling hospitals, had the side effect of denying NHS hospitals vital income that helps offset the costs of emergency medicine, whilst potentially leading to some patients coughing up to go private rather than wait. A familiar MO to anyone who remembers the Thatcher years.

[SpinningHugo]

Exactly. On the evils of the government approach to refugee children, and other things. I agree with every word

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... WEML6619I2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[AnatolyKasparov]

The Tories and Hunt. They're misunderstood over the NHS.

There's tools, then there's Rentoul.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/jer ... 02846.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You think the Tories are seeking to replace the NHS with a private insurance based system?

Some of them do, yes. There have been advocates for it in the Tory party (and their captive "think tanks") since at least the 1980s.

[SpinningHugo]

Poor old Tulip Siddiq. Resigns because she thinks you have to when it is a 3 line whip. Then discovers that others, even whips, don't get sacked for doing the same.

3 line whips no longer mean anything. True before, but we've had it revealed.

[AnatolyKasparov]

No reason why all the resignees shouldn't return in the near future, if they want to.

Students of Labour "kremlinology" have noted that Corbyn and Lewis seem to remain on very good terms, despite this week's events.

[SpinningHugo]

No reason why all the resignees shouldn't return in the near future, if they want to.

Students of Labour "kremlinology" have noted that Corbyn and Lewis seem to remain on very good terms, despite this week's events.

The chosen one is Long-Bailey now. Sell shares in Lewis. Stephen Bush is, as always, excellent

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/st ... -reshuffle" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[AnatolyKasparov]

My suggestion above - backed up by others - is that she is the "chosen one" of McDonnell and his entourage. Jez maybe not so much?

[SpinningHugo]

The Tories and Hunt. They're misunderstood over the NHS.

There's tools, then there's Rentoul.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/jer ... 02846.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You think the Tories are seeking to replace the NHS with a private insurance based system?

Some of them do, yes. There have been advocates for it in the Tory party (and their captive "think tanks") since at least the 1980s.

Well, of course you can always point to a few on the loonie fringe. But the real threat to and damage done to the public sector is elsewhere. By relentlessly scaremongering about the NHS Lbaour makes it much too easy for them. Everything else gets destroyed. Social care, justice, disability benefits, are all much much worse.

[SpinningHugo]

My suggestion above - backed up by others - is that she is the "chosen one" of McDonnell and his entourage. Jez maybe not so much?

Jez has never mattered as much as McDonnell.

[pk1]

Exactly. On the evils of the government approach to refugee children, and other things. I agree with every word

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... WEML6619I2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Freedland has expressed so much of what I have been unable to. Thanks for the link

[RogerOThornhill]

Morning all.

Some light snow here but not settling. Yet. Fortunately if it snows next week it's half term so I won't be asked if we need to close the school. We only do it if it has turned icy on the pavements since we're on a hill and it can be very nasty.

The Daily Mail’s attack on Gary Lineker should scare anyone who cares about free speech


https://inews.co.uk/opinion/daily-mails ... ee-speech/

The name-calling is one thing. There is a substantive issue at stake here. The binary nature of the EU referendum, and the divisions exposed by the American election, have given rise to a much greater intolerance and intemperance in public exchanges, creating an atmosphere in which those who dare to oppose the new political realities are shouted down. This, in turn, will stop people, whether famous or not, from speaking their mind for fear of finding the heavy artillery of the forces of conservatism being trained on them.

The Daily Mail’s campaign against Gary Lineker is nowhere near the most egregious example of this latent nastiness. Extremist language is increasingly used in the mainstream. Right wingers who have applauded the rise of Trump, defending his more outrageous statements by invoking his rights to say what he likes, are uninterested in engaging in nuanced argument. Those who oppose them are regarded, to borrow a famous Daily Mail phrase, as enemies of the people.

[Willow904]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... y-rule-law" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

When asked to rate on a scale of 1 to 10 how “essential” it is for them “to live in a democracy,” 72% of Americans born before World War II check “10,” the highest value. But, the millennial generation (those born since 1980) “has grown much more indifferent.” Less than 1 in 3 hold a similar belief about the importance of democracy.

Like with the NHS, those who have always lived with democracy have no reference by which to rate its worth and thus fail to value it.

Worrying times.

[adam]

From last night...

Campaigners opposed to Donald Trump's travel ban are celebrating after the White House said it would not challenge an appeals court ruling in the Supreme Court.

Back in the day, 'adult' film producers used to shoot whatever they wanted and send their finished films to the BBFC for certification, not bothering to edit out material that they knew they wouldn't get away with because they knew that the BBFC would, effectively, create an edit list for them.

I wonder if Trump's policy making will work a little like this? There are two parts to the process - firstly he can set out something utterly and completely outrageous and then rein it in to something that's just utterly outrageous and act like he's being reasonable, and secondly he can test anything to the very limit of the law - although I'm still of the view that if he gets his man on the Supreme Court bench in time he's quite likely to win there because there is precedent to give the President and Congress a very free hand with immigration policy, and to say that non-citizens don't necessarily have any protection under the constitution.

[pk1]

2 for 1 smear in the Times today, linking Bercow & Vaz with the implication there has been dodgy dealings between them. Andrew Brigden's name appears a couple of times & is clearly the one who's been agitating behind the scenes. Naturally they do include the caveat that nothing illegal has taken place....

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/ ... -gbs8ndr65" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Oddly enough they haven't seen fit to publish my comment which simply said:

Just 3 things:

No further police action against Mr Vaz
No illegal donations to Mr Bercow
No rules broken by either donors or receiving MPs

The theme of this article appears to be: Why smear just one MP when you can smear two with the same story ?

This piece could have been written by the obnoxious Andrew Brigden & I wouldn't have been at all surprised to see his name in the byline.

[AnatolyKasparov]

My suggestion above - backed up by others - is that she is the "chosen one" of McDonnell and his entourage. Jez maybe not so much?

Jez has never mattered as much as McDonnell.

Except, maybe, to the membership.

[refitman]

It does amaze me that for a, former, Labour supporter, SH is more than happy to either ignore everything and anything the Tories do, or squirrel for them. But at the same time, has spent the last 5+ years attacking Labour relentlessly.

[AngryAsWell]

The Tories and Hunt. They're misunderstood over the NHS.

There's tools, then there's Rentoul.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/jer ... 02846.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You think the Tories are seeking to replace the NHS with a private insurance based system?

Yes, I do.

[AngryAsWell]

You think the Tories are seeking to replace the NHS with a private insurance based system?

Some of them do, yes. There have been advocates for it in the Tory party (and their captive "think tanks") since at least the 1980s.

Well, of course you can always point to a few on the loonie fringe. But the real threat to and damage done to the public sector is elsewhere. By relentlessly scaremongering about the NHS Lbaour makes it much too easy for them. Everything else gets destroyed. Social care, justice, disability benefits, are all much much worse.

Unfortunately what used to be the "loony fringe" of the conservative party are now in charge of it (and the country) hence Brexit and the running down of the NHS along the privatisation road.

[AngryAsWell]

Tory policy chief Oliver Letwin wrote a 'blueprint' for NHS privatisation
Two of the five proposals - which included introducing charges for all NHS services - have already been adopted

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/to ... in-7141244" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[AngryAsWell]

Lib Dems launch fight for EU citizens' right to stay in UK

British public must also be given final say, argue peers

http://www.libdems.org.uk/lib_dems_laun ... stay_in_uk#" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[StephenDolan]

How did I miss this?

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[AngryAsWell]

Flood warnings issued for North-East coast

http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/1 ... ref=twtrec" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[RogerOThornhill]

How did I miss this?

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I can never get my head around an alleged member of the left writing for a poisonous right wing rag like the Mail or MOS. How can you write for a news group that loathes your political position?

[AngryAsWell]

Early day motion 943
NO CONFIDENCE IN THE SPEAKER

http://www.parliament.uk/edm/2016-17/943" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Number of signatures is impressive

( )

[Tubby Isaacs]

The Tories and Hunt. They're misunderstood over the NHS.

There's tools, then there's Rentoul.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/jer ... 02846.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You think the Tories are seeking to replace the NHS with a private insurance based system?

Some of them do, yes. There have been advocates for it in the Tory party (and their captive "think tanks") since at least the 1980s.

The bow tie brigade do and did. It's not worth the hassle though. Privatise the provision and maintain taxpayer model, and the public barely notice and donors are happy.

[Tubby Isaacs]

It's kind of opposite to rail. There, train companies splash their livery on the trains and everybody knows they're privatised and the government avoid blame. With health it looks pretty much like the NHS even when it isn't.

[AngryAsWell]

The NHS Is Crumbling And Jeremy Hunt Is Letting It Happen Says James

A&E wait times are at record highs. Here James O'Brien says the NHS is 'dissolving before our eyes' - and the Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt is letting it happen.

http://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/j ... it-happen/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Tubby Isaacs]

How did I miss this?

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

He can't argue properly at all, can he?

[Tubby Isaacs]

The NHS Is Crumbling And Jeremy Hunt Is Letting It Happen Says James

A&E wait times are at record highs. Here James O'Brien says the NHS is 'dissolving before our eyes' - and the Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt is letting it happen.

http://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/j ... it-happen/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As my consultant friend says, worst since 1997.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Early day motion 943
NO CONFIDENCE IN THE SPEAKER

http://www.parliament.uk/edm/2016-17/943" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Number of signatures is impressive

( )

Jerry Maguire.

[RogerOThornhill]

How did I miss this?

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

He can't argue properly at all, can he?

Exactly the same as when people being banned from Twitter get all shouty about free speech - it's their business who they let use it. Don't like it? Well, tough.

Denying free speech is only a problem when the people doing the denying are in any sort of power to impose sanctions i.e. locking you up or threatening family members or suchlike.

[RogerOThornhill]

Well, look at this...

Planned Espionage Act could jail journos and whistleblowers as spies

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/02/1 ... _as_spies/

Proposals in the UK for a swingeing new Espionage Act that could jail journalists as spies have been developed in haste by legal advisors, The Register has learned.

The proposed law update is an attempt to ban reporting of future big data leaks.

The British government has received recommendations for a "future-proofed" new Espionage Act that would put leaking and whistleblowing in the same category as spying for foreign powers.

That threatens leakers and journalists with the same extended jail sentences as foreign agents. Sentences would apply even if – like Edward Snowden or Chelsea Manning – the leaker was not British, or in Britain, or was intent on acting in the public interest.

Far more important than any uni club no=platforming or banning from Twitter.

[AngryAsWell]

#paulnuttalfacts was trending earlier

https://twitter.com/hashtag/paulnuttalfacts?src=hash" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[refitman]

How did I miss this?

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

He can't argue properly at all, can he?

He also seems to think that Wiki removing the Mail as a valid source is also preventing them from publishing a newspaper.

[pk1]

The NHS Is Crumbling And Jeremy Hunt Is Letting It Happen Says James

A&E wait times are at record highs. Here James O'Brien says the NHS is 'dissolving before our eyes' - and the Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt is letting it happen.

http://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/j ... it-happen/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There are some great graphs with info from the IFS that show NHS funding since 1955. The difference between Labour & Tory govts is stark. I've added a couple showing the 4 hour waits vs tagets too - this seems to be the only reference to Labour's 98% target that I can find.

[citizenJA]

Good-afternoon, everyone.

[HindleA]

Far worse than Tory apologist.Deliberate and obvious undermining opposition-note the sudden concern about social care etc when they have been slagging off both the people that have been flagging this up for years-Burnham etc and stating as nuseful if not hysterical previous mentions.If you don't realise they are a smothering jelly,I don't know what to say.

[gilsey]

I'm not sure the NHS is going entirely to plan for the tories actually, I think erosion of services was supposed to happen gradually so we'd hardly notice, as others have said. It's conspicuous instead, and when the STPs finally get published it's possible more people might wake up to what's going on.

[tinyclanger2]

The NHS Is Crumbling And Jeremy Hunt Is Letting It Happen Says James

A&E wait times are at record highs. Here James O'Brien says the NHS is 'dissolving before our eyes' - and the Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt is letting it happen.

http://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/j ... it-happen/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There are some great graphs with info from the IFS that show NHS funding since 1955. The difference between Labour & Tory govts is stark. I've added a couple showing the 4 hour waits vs tagets too - this seems to be the only reference to Labour's 98% target that I can find.

Hmm - can't think of ANYTHING in 2010 that would account for that change in trajectory.

[tinyclanger2]

Two-thirds of young hospital doctors under serious stress, survey reveals
Trainee anaesthetists complain of fatigue, disillusionment, ‘burnout’ and fears for patients’ safety as pressure mounts on NHS
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... survey-nhs" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A survey of the working lives of 2,300 trainee anaesthetists has found that six out of seven – 85% – are at risk of becoming burned out, despite only being in their 20s and 30s. Respondents identified long hours, fears about patient safety, the disruption of working night shifts and long commutes to their hospital as key reasons for their growing fatigue and disillusionment.

[tinyclanger2]

So: is there something we want to do vis a vis board rules and whether the site would ever ban anyone?

I find ignoring posts pretty straight forward, but am disconcerted in the presence of any clearly seriously malevolent force.
I can't tell if SH, or anyone else here at the moment is malevolent, though I do find the total lack of response to accusations quite strange.

My preferences are:
- to avoid us and them mentality (and note that I am expressly excluding myself as any kind of us - or them)
- to avoid posting in anger (draft and then amend before sending)
- to be open yet develop some rules that might help prevent so many people leaving
- to understand the loss of a large number of people post-Brexit - it would be good to know what the various departures were about and see whether any behavioural rules might ameliorate
- to develop some way of deciding whether someone should be banned - and if so for what reasons - though that might merit a warning of some sort which seems onerus and I have no suggestions on how it might be done
- to have some kind of "jinx" procedure where we can make a comment (eg: JINXED COMMENT: all this talk about Brexit is driving me nuts and I want to talk about something else for a bit) and people can ignore it but not argue with it. This would allow the reflection of discontent without triggering the kind of argument that one would like to try to avoid

There are probably other things too.

[tinyclanger2]

Chronic understaffing in hospitals means that trainees are typically being asked to work six extra shifts a month to cover for gaps in rotas, the survey found.

[tinyclanger2]

Jeremy Hunt – the public is blaming you, not health tourism, for the NHS crisis
Brits abroad die or are seriously injured in tragic accidents of their own making but because it happens in the EU there is no need to tell tabloid readers of how much our citizens are costing other countries health care systems
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/hea ... 75226.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Imagine in 2020 if a British youth who has been on a drunken night out in Majorca goes to the local hospital which then refuses to give them a stomach pump without up front payment. The young person then dies after choking on their own vomit. This may be the reality when we leave the EU and we end reciprocal arrangements for free health care. I can visualise already the screaming headlines of "British youth left to die by greedy Spanish hospital".

[tinyclanger2]

Oxbridge still has a problem with elitism – as the student trying to burn money in front of a homeless man shows
Admission quotas would release opportunity for thousands of students. Let private schools take 7 per cent of the places, and give the remaining 93 per cent to state-educated students
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/cam ... 74856.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Sounds like a plan.